I've lost hope in MMORPGs. Goodbye fellow vets

airhead

 

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi


I agree. You could actually create a FFA PvP game like that now. Actually, it already has been done with several games and those are successful. Yeah, there are some turd FFA games out there, like Shadowbane, but SB wasn't a turd due to gameplay. It was a turd because it was a technological failure. AI will take along time to be equivalent to players. Even when it does come, who is to say that it will be popular? People like challenges, but I think people like to win more. So maybe the AI actually implemented will always be just easy enough for us to beat them.
I am an amateur when it comes to programming. In fact, I dropped out of programming and switched majors because it was too complicated for me. So you would know more than I, but couldn't you program options for each mob in the game for the mob to randomly choose? If I programmed a monster to do 1 out of 200 attacks each turn and put their HP's, Mana, and Endurance at the same level as players, wouldn't that make them 200 times less predictable? Right now, like the OP says, mobs are programmed to die. They have less HP's than we do at the same level and in most games don't have special attacks. Those games that do implement special attacks for their NPC's and also have their health, mana, endurance etc equal to the players is actually more challenging. In fact, they are actually fun to fight. While you might win every battle if you know your character and play well, you can easily die to one of those NPC's if you mess up. DAOC programmed scout type mobs in their game to "get help" if they spotted a player. Those scouts were stealthed as well. So they compensated for poor AI with AI good enough to execute specials and get more numbers to subdue the threat.
So I think AI is pretty good in some games right now. Good enough to offer a challenge to the average gamer, but still easy enough to be enjoyable. Of course, the good gamers will find them too easy, because they will figure out a method to killing them, but the same can be said about any kind of PvP as well...except ganking. But again, who really likes ganking in a game? Not many people. A well programmed mob may strike you with 5 different attacks. In a good game, some of those attacks are lethal or open you up for lethal attacks. Each type of mob has a different set of 5 attacks. There are hundreds of different types of mobs in a game. When you put it in this perspective, it almost seems easier on paper to figure out the 9 or so playable classes and kill them. Of course, AI mobs don't usually run around past their area of responsibility like players can, so players off of paper are more challenging. But every playable class is analyzed and broken down by the best players and techniques are taught and learned on how to deal with X class if you are Y. So honestly, PvP is not as challenging as people claim it to be. What makes PvP so great IMHO is RvR with siege warfare. This is because it builds unity and realm pride in a game and  allows  the realms to fight each other over property. As long as the property is changing hands, people will pick up a sword and fight to get it back. That is endless content. However, to be fair to PvEers, the same fun can be had by having a player faction and several NPC factions. The players can siege the NPC factions and the NPC factions can try and get their castles back. So again, non-stop content. PvP is always fun when fighting over land. So is PvE. PvE is fun when fighting for something other than xp.
I just realized I am ranting, so I will stop, haha. I could keep writing and writing, but I will save you the misery. I hope everyone gets my point though. It's not PvP or PvE that is great, but the meaning and challenge behind it. This means that both PvE and PvP can equally offer a lot of fun to be had. It just takes less programming effort to implement PvP, but more effort from the players to keep it going. Whereas PvE takes more effort from programmers, which means less quality AI, but not much effort from players to keep the game going. Two different play styles, both have their merits.

 

We are on the same page. Unpredictability, challenge... when pvp brings that to a game, it's good. But if said game turns right around and limits what you can do organizationally and mechanically to 'strike back' against unwanted behaviors, then it's not good. It's just moving the 'line' on what's possible, but the line is soon hit, and it's limiting.

And if you turn pvp into a little side game only, then it's just a grind of a different flavor. Like going into a room and playing chess against somebody as opposed to a computer. Not a whole lot more fun really.

But to the AI. Just think about it for a sec, and you will see that the CONSTRAINTS on an mmo are huge. Your 'program' has to calculate what multiple mobs will do in REAL TIME. Big blue got to sit and think at least a few minutes for each move. "in real time" means no more than a second to figure out what to do.  And the 'options' at any point in time that your program must consider is more than chess. To heuristically search just a little into the future is incredibly expensive, and you have to do this in real time because you are fighting a human? And you have to do it for multiple mobs because there are groups of them?     no way.  at least not in our life times.  

If you have ever made some maps in a Unreal Tournament, you will see that you have to create these nodes, which generates possible paths, for the bots to take. You are essentially creating a spatial program that gives the possible paths. And the bot has some very basic behavior as well, i.e. "if hurt and see health, get it. if see enemy, shoot. If out of ammo, find ammo. If nothing in sight, run to next node. If multiple nodes to run to, flip a coin, etc." Stuff that can be carried out in real time.

But that is nothing compared to what humans can do. Organize into groups. set goals. flank. feign retreat back into a trap. consider spatial layout to maximize chance of success. evaluate scenario continuously to determine chance of success. formulate rules for self government. actively participate in an economy. etc. PvP (humans) + Ever-Increasing-Mechanics is the only practical way to ever achieve this stuff.... imo

The 'select randomly from x different strategies' is a good idea and would help. But eventually, humans are so much smarter, they would recognize which strategy was in progress, and would counter with the optimal strategy that has been deduced from repeated encounters.

 

Talemire

Good post... I understand exactly what has been said. I too am tired of crap for games, and AoC is my last hope as well. If that doesn't pull through, then bleh.

Nazaros

Originally posted by Dreadlich


Salvatoris, your sig reminds me of what I want in an MMO. Mechwarrior/Battletech on the scale of EVE. A galaxy to fight over, but unlike EVE it's pretty much 100% planetside conflicts. The various houses vs clan with merc groups. Even a smaller scale persistent world Mechwarrior would be nice. That IP has been dormant for too long.

Ohhhh... You hit a very sensitive part of my dream world here. I can't believe they haven't done a good MMO with the Mech Warrior series yet. Talk about a game that have MMO possibility, and yet, be "skilled based".

I would so play a MMO made with the mech warrior/battletech series... The houses with comstar being the "balance" in the universe would make sure that the battles would be endless, and still be part of the lore. (Not some lame fake system of control)

One can only hope....................

Arclan

Writing to salute the OP on an excellent post!  Very well said, and I agree 100%.  While I'm here, allow me to give the Eve fanbois a middle-finger salute.  Sorry man that game sux.  To anyone who hasn't played it, let me explain:

Gameplay in Eve involves either (1) flying around to the same boring asteroids and shooting pirates, (2) doing missions (instances, which are the same GD thing over and over), and (3) mining (which sux because to mine anything meaningful you have to go to 0.0 secure space where you'll likely get killed by a player pirate / griefer.

If you like grouping, you won't like Eve.  There is no meaningful way to group.  If you dislike profanity, you will hate Eve because it is absolutely bursting with extremely vulgar profanity.  That should be an adult-only game, but suspect it is mostly teenagers.

Don't get me started on graphics; I laugh when folks say how great they are.  That's because they are only rendering the GD ships; the background is just one big 2-dimensional image!  There is BARELY any geometry being rendered, but if you get in combat with just a few ships, it is LAGGY AS HELL.

Now, someone please tell me how Eve is great now and that they completely overhauled their game which would simply prove how much it sucked in the first place.

/edit, I played battletech too a lot in my younger days; and I'd love to play a good Battletech/Mechwarrior MMO. 

tylerthedrui

Originally posted by Orthedos


Most of what you are saying are opinions which you are fully entitled.  I have reservations, and hold somewhat different opinion.  Opinion can differ.  You view is noted, but so far I feel my views to be more comfortable to me.

Okay, you are absolutely right that everything comes down to personal opinion. In fact, we should abolish game ratings because personal opinion differs from person to person.

There is no 'good', there is no 'bad', there is only good donkey sex and bad donkey sex.

I can't argue with you if you can't place a value, good or bad, on a particular playstyle.

 

And quit making the raiding environment in WoW look like a glorious competition of fame and glory. It is a long, painful, self-centered, grind. All of us have been there - don't act like we're oblivious to it.

tylerthedrui

Originally posted by Orthedos


Very interesting analysis.  So it provides a choice, some ppl want to play like the mafia, some prefer national army type conflicts.  I see no reason why the two cannot co-exist as 2 forms of pvp entertainment.

I agree with you on this one orthedos.

I do believe that the world should be a huge free-for-all. The reason I say I like FFA PvP is because it allows a new faction to form anywhere, anytime.

I just don't see ganking as being a problem. The party of lone gankers just doesn't survive in EVE or shadowbane. They aren't nearly as common as you'd expect - and they often have to fund their ganking with some other form of income - which means they 'pay' for what they do.

Nations appear, small companies appear. 'mafia'-like organizations appear.

I don't like the idea of a huge free-for-all of every player killing everything that moves. However, I think there should be no hardcoded implements that prohibit it.

tylerthedrui

Originally posted by Cabe2323


So we can safely say that PVPers like the game mechanics of playing against others because it provides a challenge to them.  No where in that does it have to require full looting.  Real PVPers love the thrill of the hunt and the fight and get their satisfaction from this.  That is why the First Person Shooter genre is so popular.   In the First Person Shooter Genre there are no long term consequences to your death but it is still extremely popular.
"Gankers" on the other hand are only interested in inflicting pain on other players.  They are usually players who in their group are able to inflict their will upon new players.  They take this position of power and abuse it.  They are the reason why FFA Full Loot PVP games do not work.  They are the same as the spawn campers in FPS games.  Players who look for any advantage to make sure the other player can't do anything to stop them. 
Like I said in my last post, FFA full loot PVP does not go along with a RPG game. 
 
Lastly, PVP is not a huge portion of the gaming market.  Competitive gaming is pretty big but it is not the same as PVP in a MMO game.  Guild Wars, World of Warcraft's arenas, etc are more like Competitive gaming and not like the FFA PVP that the OP wants.  Heck most of the popular FPS games are squad or team based PVP not FFA.  Look at Counterstrike, Team Fortress, or any of the rainbow six games (some of the most popular FPS games)  they are all based on team based "PVP" which would be more similar to RvR in a MMO game. 
 
Anyone who honestly thinks that FFA PVP in a MMORPG is the wave of the future will be sadly disappointed.

Here is where we differ.

I believe RvR IS the future. However, in order to implement proper RvR - you need to add meaning and 'value' to the pvp. The most basic way to do this is by having a FFA PvP system.

The lone ganker would be a rare sight - since he would not have a guild behind him to strengthen him.

Trust me, I have no interest in a free-for-all either.

You are comparing FFA PvP to a ganker in an FPS. There is a vast difference between a persistent world, and a temporary server in an FPS game like BF2. In a persistent world, that ganker has something to lose by doing what he is doing. He will have to band together with a group of people to keep from being hunted down by the allies of his victims.

Dreadlich

Originally posted by tylerthedrui


 
Originally posted by Cabe2323


So we can safely say that PVPers like the game mechanics of playing against others because it provides a challenge to them.  No where in that does it have to require full looting.  Real PVPers love the thrill of the hunt and the fight and get their satisfaction from this.  That is why the First Person Shooter genre is so popular.   In the First Person Shooter Genre there are no long term consequences to your death but it is still extremely popular.
"Gankers" on the other hand are only interested in inflicting pain on other players.  They are usually players who in their group are able to inflict their will upon new players.  They take this position of power and abuse it.  They are the reason why FFA Full Loot PVP games do not work.  They are the same as the spawn campers in FPS games.  Players who look for any advantage to make sure the other player can't do anything to stop them. 
Like I said in my last post, FFA full loot PVP does not go along with a RPG game. 
 
Lastly, PVP is not a huge portion of the gaming market.  Competitive gaming is pretty big but it is not the same as PVP in a MMO game.  Guild Wars, World of Warcraft's arenas, etc are more like Competitive gaming and not like the FFA PVP that the OP wants.  Heck most of the popular FPS games are squad or team based PVP not FFA.  Look at Counterstrike, Team Fortress, or any of the rainbow six games (some of the most popular FPS games)  they are all based on team based "PVP" which would be more similar to RvR in a MMO game. 
 
Anyone who honestly thinks that FFA PVP in a MMORPG is the wave of the future will be sadly disappointed.

 

Here is where we differ.

I believe RvR IS the future. However, in order to implement proper RvR - you need to add meaning and 'value' to the pvp. The most basic way to do this is by having a FFA PvP system.

The lone ganker would be a rare sight - since he would not have a guild behind him to strengthen him.

Trust me, I have no interest in a free-for-all either.

You are comparing FFA PvP to a ganker in an FPS. There is a vast difference between a persistent world, and a temporary server in an FPS game like BF2. In a persistent world, that ganker has something to lose by doing what he is doing. He will have to band together with a group of people to keep from being hunted down by the allies of his victims.

Main problem I see with that, is that some people don't like grouping or the drama of guilds. In a non FFA PVP system that has RvR, you can solo and still help your team. With FFA PVP, soloing isn't really practical. That's why I'm not playing EVE atm. I love the game and the concept, but you can't get anywhere really without a Corp. I deal with people enough in RL. I like RvR/PvP, but I don't want to have to deal with the petty, selfish drama that comes with most guilds/corps/outfits.

tylerthedrui

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi


 
 
I agree, but a game with griefing is a game destined to fail. You can have FFA PvP, but it needs to simulate real life to be successful. Griefing only happens in a game that support Anarchy. Games are remarkably similar to real life in that everything relies on the economy and form of government. In a sandbox FFA PvP game, the strongest survive. The strongest are those who band together and start building community. The most successful communities are those that are most fair. So while you might have tribes of griefers (bandits) running around, your local Republic ran city will crush them and drive them out of their land fairly quickly. The thing is that you can't have a loot based economy in a FFA PvP game.
So if a government isn't formed in a sandbox FFA PvP game fairly quickly, then that game will fail from all of the griefing being done. People get tired of being camped, doesn't matter who you are. Once you are tired of getting camped, you log out and cancel. If it looks like justice is being served to the griefers, then people will keep playing. There has to be a balance. Balance is what we have in real life. This is why you don't have people sitting outside of town killing off people as they pull out onto the highway. So really, a good FFA PvP game won't have a whole lot of PvP in it. So in essense, the best PvP game would be an FPS game.

I agree with you, but tend more towards the anarchy side of things.

I don't think we should try to make games model real life. Where grinding is basically the equivalent of office routines (raids are less fun that working in the office), where everyone does crafting and shopping, etc.

I play games to participate in a fun environment, that is far more dangerous than real life. Why does everyone want to reduce games to a real-life simulator?

No, I am not vouching for total anarchy, of course

tylerthedrui

Originally posted by vajuras


its impossible to have a productive discussion here we need to make a distinction here is Lineage 2 not FFA PVP? Is EVE Online FFA PVP? Because the posters saying FFA PVP failed sound like the biggest newbies to this genre too me seeing as how Lineage 2 has over a million subs and hundreds of servers running here in US.
 
EVE Online grew from less then 5k subs to over 200k subs crushing cookie cutter EQ-rewrappers like City Of Heroes (which has DECLINED since launch along with DDO and probably smacking LOTRO too)
Asheron's Call 1 Darktide is most populated server
Hell even UO is still kicking with probbably nearly a hundred servers up
 there is only 1 FFA PVP MMO I know of that was a commercial failure which was Shadowbane- a game that released with a metacritic of 75. not a good score to recruit subs its down there with Vanguard at 68 (www.metacritic.com)
FFA PVP has not failed until you guys realize that all of your arguments will simply fall on death ears til the year 3000+
If you want to make an effective case against it- play the MMO in question longer then 3 months. Point out the flaws. Then your rants will be worth reading. but right now I hjavent read one single convincing post against it. You guys either cant count or just love to rant all day long about nothing....

 Your wisdom is endless.

I have not seen one convincing argument against having a sandbox dynamic, PvP world - because the people we are arguing against stand for NOTHING. They don't believe that MMORPGs will change at all (look at their history for god's sakes). They do not put their neck out by coming up with new ideas. They basically just shoot down the ideas others come up with, because they lack creativity and balls.

KOrnfan4evr

www.darkfallonline.com.



Nuff said, i'd say keep your eyes open for it but it wont be out for another while.  I'd really suggest looking into their faq.



If you want the old days of AC DT or the whole feeling of old school UO.  Sir, this is the game.  Stretching with idea unique and just creating a world based on others ideas but actaully perfecting them, this game has it all.  If your pvp hungry this might make you hate it, if you love being in danger, this game was built on the basis of "Your going to die in darkfall, alot".    



If you wish you can pve, but you can level just as quickly if not quicker by str8 pvp. 



If you wish i can preach to you all day just pm me back and i'll answer all i know 4 u.  Or you can just check out the faq.



Being a lover of AC DT (Old school) and having been heartbroken by the lies of shadowbane (good premise shitty game) I feel for you my friend.  Hopefully this could shed some light on the darkened years.

Grunties

Originally posted by tylerthedrui


 
 
You are comparing FFA PvP to a ganker in an FPS. There is a vast difference between a persistent world, and a temporary server in an FPS game like BF2. In a persistent world, that ganker has something to lose by doing what he is doing. He will have to band together with a group of people to keep from being hunted down by the allies of his victims.

Conversely, the victim in a persistent world has equally as much to lose (perhaps even more) by being a victim, and will have to band together to protect himself.

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to darkfall and seeing how it works out there. But I think every system is skewed to favor a certain type of player. And FFA pvp favors the ganker far more than the victim.

tylerthedrui

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi


 
 
I agree. You could actually create a FFA PvP game like that now. Actually, it already has been done with several games and those are successful. Yeah, there are some turd FFA games out there, like Shadowbane, but SB wasn't a turd due to gameplay. It was a turd because it was a technological failure. AI will take along time to be equivalent to players. Even when it does come, who is to say that it will be popular? People like challenges, but I think people like to win more. So maybe the AI actually implemented will always be just easy enough for us to beat them.
I am an amateur when it comes to programming. In fact, I dropped out of programming and switched majors because it was too complicated for me. So you would know more than I, but couldn't you program options for each mob in the game for the mob to randomly choose? If I programmed a monster to do 1 out of 200 attacks each turn and put their HP's, Mana, and Endurance at the same level as players, wouldn't that make them 200 times less predictable? Right now, like the OP says, mobs are programmed to die. They have less HP's than we do at the same level and in most games don't have special attacks. Those games that do implement special attacks for their NPC's and also have their health, mana, endurance etc equal to the players is actually more challenging. In fact, they are actually fun to fight. While you might win every battle if you know your character and play well, you can easily die to one of those NPC's if you mess up. DAOC programmed scout type mobs in their game to "get help" if they spotted a player. Those scouts were stealthed as well. So they compensated for poor AI with AI good enough to execute specials and get more numbers to subdue the threat.
So I think AI is pretty good in some games right now. Good enough to offer a challenge to the average gamer, but still easy enough to be enjoyable. Of course, the good gamers will find them too easy, because they will figure out a method to killing them, but the same can be said about any kind of PvP as well...except ganking. But again, who really likes ganking in a game? Not many people. A well programmed mob may strike you with 5 different attacks. In a good game, some of those attacks are lethal or open you up for lethal attacks. Each type of mob has a different set of 5 attacks. There are hundreds of different types of mobs in a game. When you put it in this perspective, it almost seems easier on paper to figure out the 9 or so playable classes and kill them. Of course, AI mobs don't usually run around past their area of responsibility like players can, so players off of paper are more challenging. But every playable class is analyzed and broken down by the best players and techniques are taught and learned on how to deal with X class if you are Y. So honestly, PvP is not as challenging as people claim it to be. What makes PvP so great IMHO is RvR with siege warfare. This is because it builds unity and realm pride in a game and  allows  the realms to fight each other over property. As long as the property is changing hands, people will pick up a sword and fight to get it back. That is endless content. However, to be fair to PvEers, the same fun can be had by having a player faction and several NPC factions. The players can siege the NPC factions and the NPC factions can try and get their castles back. So again, non-stop content. PvP is always fun when fighting over land. So is PvE. PvE is fun when fighting for something other than xp.
I just realized I am ranting, so I will stop, haha. I could keep writing and writing, but I will save you the misery. I hope everyone gets my point though. It's not PvP or PvE that is great, but the meaning and challenge behind it. This means that both PvE and PvP can equally offer a lot of fun to be had. It just takes less programming effort to implement PvP, but more effort from the players to keep it going. Whereas PvE takes more effort from programmers, which means less quality AI, but not much effort from players to keep the game going. Two different play styles, both have their merits.

Yeah, I agree.

Dynamic PvE would be fun as hell. Of course, impossible to implement. So I suggest dynamic PvP as the solution :P

Bane82

---

Originally posted by tylerthedrui
Originally posted by Serling

But then he won't be able to loot the mythicals "pwnzors" sword off players, or wear Magical armor in the battle field that shows off how big his e-peen is... not without looking like an idiot at least.

LOL!  So true!  I wonder how many of these self-professed "manly gamers" would handle 1 week of Marine Corps boot camp? 
People that whine about not having any real challenges in life aren't looking in the right places.

---

Thanks for coming in here and insulting the enemy instead of arguing your point. So you want to tramp on other about how you're a big bad marine? What is it about marines that makes them think they're so badass compared to the army, the air force, etc? From what I understand most people make it through marine boot camp, and get 2nd chances if they don't make it the first time.
Try surviving engineering school - the dropout rate is phenomenally higher. At my university they intentionally weed out the lower 2/3 of the class. We're talking about hard classes here, 70 hours/week of studying. Maybe you just value brawn before brains. Let's not forget that we get paid 70k + 10-15k sign on bonuses + free lodging/food/vehicles when overseas., while the normal marine inches by at under 30k + food/housing.
Not that I have anything against the armed-forced - I just think you went to the wrong place for a challenge. I have a friend who was a marine and said it was pretty much gold-collar labor for the most part. Sure, I don't work as hard as an average marine - and probably not as hard as the average gold-collar working two jobs at once. However, my work has a far higher intellectual intensity than horse-labor.
My first run-in with a marine was back in highschool, when a real badass marine (fat guy, mullet) accused some highschoolers of stealing candy - he went to the store manager and everything. Real badass.
Oh, and I also remember the friend who joined the marines (he was never a bright one) and came back saying that marines go through equivalent, if not harder, training than navy seals. Oh boy...

---

Wow! did you completely miss the point of his post...
What he was saying was... That it was funny to see alot of these FFA PvP defenders talk about that they want a real challenge when they can do so in real life. That it was funny that they like to act tough in a PvP game, talk about how they "ganked that noob" and how much better they are from the rest when he's sure that they wouldn't handle the real thing. All he was doing was making an observation, take a chill pill man

ryotian

There used to be a time when you had to work together with your fellow man to survive

They used to be a time when MMOs lasted you for years and years

There used to be a time when it took skill to PVP because we were not bound by Classes

There used to be a time when you could kill a guy that was really annoying you. now they can ninja loot ya, change their name, and never suffer accountability

 

There used to be a time when MMOs catered to true virtual world fans. Now they're all overrun wit loot hungry newbies

I blame the carebears they ruin every MMO in existence then trample the nex tMMO as soon as it releases. They ar elike a virus- a disease that has no end

tylerthedrui

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi


 
 
I agree, but a game with griefing is a game destined to fail. You can have FFA PvP, but it needs to simulate real life to be successful. Griefing only happens in a game that support Anarchy. Games are remarkably similar to real life in that everything relies on the economy and form of government. In a sandbox FFA PvP game, the strongest survive. The strongest are those who band together and start building community. The most successful communities are those that are most fair. So while you might have tribes of griefers (bandits) running around, your local Republic ran city will crush them and drive them out of their land fairly quickly. The thing is that you can't have a loot based economy in a FFA PvP game.
So if a government isn't formed in a sandbox FFA PvP game fairly quickly, then that game will fail from all of the griefing being done. People get tired of being camped, doesn't matter who you are. Once you are tired of getting camped, you log out and cancel. If it looks like justice is being served to the griefers, then people will keep playing. There has to be a balance. Balance is what we have in real life. This is why you don't have people sitting outside of town killing off people as they pull out onto the highway. So really, a good FFA PvP game won't have a whole lot of PvP in it. So in essense, the best PvP game would be an FPS game.

The whole idea of comparing the game with RL is fallacious, but I'll go ahead and humor you.

In RL, FFA PvP *is* allowed. There is no godly intervention that keeps you from killing anyone, anywhere. Sometimes, people do kill eachother - therefore, nations were established that put one group of people in a zone of 'safety', where FFA PvP is not allowed by the law and strength of the people who are within that nation.

There are hundreds of nations on our planet, and not one zone where there is total FFA PvP (except sierra leone during revolutions, and that is a very small part of the world).

Comparing the in-game world to RL only further reinforces the fact that FFA PvP will not devolve into total anarchy.

Dreadlich

Originally posted by tylerthedrui


 
Originally posted by Serling


But then he won't be able to loot the mythicals "pwnzors" sword off players, or wear Magical armor in the battle field that shows off how big his e-peen is... not without looking like an idiot at least.

LOL!  So true!  I wonder how many of these self-professed "manly gamers" would handle 1 week of Marine Corps boot camp? 

People that whine about not having any real challenges in life aren't looking in the right places.

Thanks for coming in here and insulting the enemy instead of arguing your point. So you want to tramp on other about how you're a big bad marine? What is it about marines that makes them think they're so badass compared to the army, the air force, etc? From what I understand most people make it through marine boot camp, and get 2nd chances if they don't make it the first time.

 

Try surviving engineering school - the dropout rate is phenomenally higher. At my university they intentionally weed out the lower 2/3 of the class. We're talking about hard classes here, 70 hours/week of studying. Maybe you just value brawn before brains. Let's not forget that we get paid 70k + 10-15k sign on bonuses + free lodging/food/vehicles when overseas., while the normal marine inches by at under 30k + food/housing.

Not that I have anything against the armed-forced - I just think you went to the wrong place for a challenge. I have a friend who was a marine and said it was pretty much gold-collar labor for the most part. Sure, I don't work as hard as an average marine - and probably not as hard as the average gold-collar working two jobs at once. However, my work has a far higher intellectual intensity than horse-labor.

My first run-in with a marine was back in highschool, when a real badass marine (fat guy, mullet) accused some highschoolers of stealing candy - he went to the store manager and everything. Real badass.

Oh, and I also remember the friend who joined the marines (he was never a bright one) and came back saying that marines go through equivalent, if not harder, training than navy seals. Oh boy...

Reposting this to include the edit and because this stuff is WAY beyond what this thread is about..

I gotta call BS on both of you. These FFA PVPers flame and demean everyone that doesn't agree with them. They thump their chest like f'ing idiots over video games and want to victimize others so they can get off on how badass they are. Then someone points out they're not really all that badass, and someone starts crying about throwing insults around? The whole thing is just dumb. FFA PVP doesn't mean you're badder, meaner or more skilled or knowledgeable. It don't mean shit. So stop dogging everyone that doesn't agree with you and you might not get called out. Grow up.

You think engineering school is tough? Try a military academy. All that stuff your whining about having to do is the easy stuff for officers. They do engineering + military. As far as salary goes, they're serving their country. You're serving your own little self, which from your attitude is something you're probably good at.

To even point out your salary over a serviceman indicates what a petty mentality you have. You can't just say "not that I have anything against the armed forces" and then piss on em and basically call them stupid mules. You have NO idea wtf you're talking about. I can't express the loathing I have for your sorry ass at this moment.

No I'm not military or a veteran, but I have enough decency and respect not to dishonor them or demean them. Especially about their f'ing salary or intelligence.

I'll end it there, but man, i could say SO much more.

Kuanshu

Hello all,

   This thread has sure gotten some mileage...I highly doubt the OP resigns from playing MMOGs, but he did have some good points.

One thing that has been discussed is Mob AI. Funny thing the best Mob AI I had ever came across except for Raid Mobs was in Everquest 1. It simply amazed me at what some of the monsters did when I was out soloing or in a small group. I remember bringing this up to some of the Vanguard developers who had actually worked on Everquest and they laughed. This made me wonder if they had actually animated the mobs themselves from time to time to make AI seem really realistic at times.

As Technology improves AI could possibly make some huge leaps. I know the new quad core processors can do multi threading where each processor can take on different tasks. For instance one processor can do AI, another physics, another rendering etc....

It seems like the main complaint I am seeing when it comes to AI is the dumbing down they are doing because of casual player whining. Personally I am a champion of the poor Mobs that are nothing but cannon fodder and easily dispatched. WOW introduced elite mobs they were stronger then regular mobs and I would say that elite mobs were as strong as regular high level Everquest1 mobs but Everquest1 mobs could dispell, charm, crowd control, etc... and simply said the special attacks that was so common place in Everquest is hardly around anymore unless it is a raid mob of some sort.

Mobs need to be able to work together better. In LOTRO I could literally kill Mobs right next to their kin and they would simply act like I was not even there. I firmly believe this takes away from the immersiveness of the game as a whole. A Mob should have senses and be able to use them and have special attacks and certain tactics and the ability to adapt and learn. Is it really too much to ask for a game to deliver this kind of Mob AI?

Raid Mobs in WoW are so rediculous that instead of designing reactionary Mob AI they have stages. Would it not be cool if a Raid Mob actually had good enough AI that raid strategies had to include all the special attacks and counterattacks, etc...simply because the Raid Mob was different for each encounter much liken to another player controlling a Mob.

THE AFOREMENTIONED IS THE PRIMARY REASON PEEPS SCREAM FOR FFA PVP simply because the Mob AI in most of the games is simply so sub par its pathetic...

One thing that seems to be unnerving to me is all this talk about DARKFALL ONLINE. Could we stop talking about vaporware? I could care less if they have a website nor could I care how many videos you post or screenshots. This game is never going to see the light of day and the sooner you comes to grips with this the sooner you can help some other game in its development that will actually release and be worthwhile. I waitied for Shadowbane for 3 freakin years and I will never forget what happened. DARKFALL ONLINE is simply another Shadowbane in the works and I really feel for its faithful following as they will surely see, as I did with Shadowbane.

 

 

tylerthedrui

 

Originally posted by Dreadlich


Reposting this to include the edit and because this stuff is WAY beyond what this thread is about..
I gotta call BS on both of you. These FFA PVPers flame and demean everyone that doesn't agree with them. They thump their chest like f'ing idiots over video games and want to victimize others so they can get off on how badass they are. Then someone points out they're not really all that badass, and someone starts crying about throwing insults around? The whole thing is just dumb. FFA PVP doesn't mean you're badder, meaner or more skilled or knowledgeable. It don't mean shit. So stop dogging everyone that doesn't agree with you and you might not get called out. Grow up.
You think engineering school is tough? Try a military academy. All that stuff your whining about having to do is the easy stuff for officers. They do engineering + military. As far as salary goes, they're serving their country. You're serving your own little self, which from your attitude is something you're probably good at.
To even point out your salary over a serviceman indicates what a petty mentality you have. You can't just say "not that I have anything against the armed forces" and then piss on em and basically call them stupid mules. You have NO idea wtf you're talking about. I can't express the loathing I have for your sorry ass at this moment.
No I'm not military or a veteran, but I have enough decency and respect not to dishonor them or demean them. Especially about their f'ing salary or intelligence.
I'll end it there, but man, i could say SO much more.

You're only putting servicemen on a pedestal because it is popular to do so. Most americans who've never even met a soldier pretend like they are the greatest supporter of the troops. My best friend served in the army and I have absolutely nothing against him for it - so don't go around saying that I dislike military people.

 

HOWEVER, a military person joined this post and said how much better he/she is than me - so I took the liberty of pointing out every way that he/she is not better.

Most military folk I've met joined for the college tuition, not for the glory of serving america. Once again, I have nothing against that - I have alot against gung-ho marines who act like they are the smartest shit since newton.

So keep it up, incorporate "I support the troops" along with your other cookie-cutter arguments such as "free choice", "Democracy", and "real life = in game"

Yes, this has nothing to do with the post. Neither does the post of yours that I am quoting. Neither does the post I quoted when I originally posted that stuff. Just another flaming example of why you are a hypocrite.

tylerthedrui

Originally posted by Kuanshu


Hello all,
   This thread has sure gotten some mileage...I highly doubt the OP resigns from playing MMOGs, but he did have some good points.
One thing that has been discussed is Mob AI. Funny thing the best Mob AI I had ever came across except for Raid Mobs was in Everquest 1. It simply amazed me at what some of the monsters did when I was out soloing or in a small group. I remember bringing this up to some of the Vanguard developers who had actually worked on Everquest and they laughed. This made me wonder if they had actually animated the mobs themselves from time to time to make AI seem really realistic at times.
As Technology improves AI could possibly make some huge leaps. I know the new quad core processors can do multi threading where each processor can take on different tasks. For instance one processor can do AI, another physics, another rendering etc....
It seems like the main complaint I am seeing when it comes to AI is the dumbing down they are doing because of casual player whining. Personally I am a champion of the poor Mobs that are nothing but cannon fodder and easily dispatched. WOW introduced elite mobs they were stronger then regular mobs and I would say that elite mobs were as strong as regular high level Everquest1 mobs but Everquest1 mobs could dispell, charm, crowd control, etc... and simply said the special attacks that was so common place in Everquest is hardly around anymore unless it is a raid mob of some sort.
Mobs need to be able to work together better. In LOTRO I could literally kill Mobs right next to their kin and they would simply act like I was not even there. I firmly believe this takes away from the immersiveness of the game as a whole. A Mob should have senses and be able to use them and have special attacks and certain tactics and the ability to adapt and learn. Is it really too much to ask for a game to deliver this kind of Mob AI?
Raid Mobs in WoW are so rediculous that instead of designing reactionary Mob AI they have stages. Would it not be cool if a Raid Mob actually had good enough AI that raid strategies had to include all the special attacks and counterattacks, etc...simply because the Raid Mob was different for each encounter much liken to another player controlling a Mob.
THE AFOREMENTIONED IS THE PRIMARY REASON PEEPS SCREAM FOR FFA PVP simply because the Mob AI in most of the games is simply so sub par its pathetic...
One thing that seems to be unnerving to me is all this talk about DARKFALL ONLINE. Could we stop talking about vaporware? I could care less if they have a website nor could I care how many videos you post or screenshots. This game is never going to see the light of day and the sooner you comes to grips with this the sooner you can help some other game in its development that will actually release and be worthwhile. I waitied for Shadowbane for 3 freakin years and I will never forget what happened. DARKFALL ONLINE is simply another Shadowbane in the works and I really feel for its faithful following as they will surely see, as I did with Shadowbane.
 
 

That could indeed be the reason people are after FFA PvP. Mobs have certainly become less like living creatures.

Dr.greenthum

I really think that people should view the current mmorpgs as old silent movies. They where entertaining for the people of the time but as soon as the novelty wore off people wanted more. I have lost all hope for any upcoming mmorpg that follow the same combat/leveling/gear trends. I strongly believe that games such as age of conan or chronicles of spellborn will change everything and completely change how mmorpg are made and the basic mechanics of future games. That my two cents....

dalevi1

Originally posted by tylerthedrui


 
Originally posted by winter



) In the end I really do hope Darkfall comes out, but I'm betting it will go the way of Shadowbane (a game i did play and had fun with) Time will tell though.

Shadowbane did not fail because not enough people are interested in FFA PVP; Shadowbane failed because it was poorly implemented. SB had bad graphics and gameplay. However, people still play today, because the concept is so great. It's a wonder SB survived at all with the constant crashes and glitches.

 

You will be eating your words when a fun PvP-based MMORPG is released and you flock to it with the rest of the herd (or flock, whatever).

What you don't understand is this:

At one time, we were ALL PvEers, crafters, raiders. Veteran MMORPG players have come to the realization that the endgame is PvP that has meaning.

The grinders can't win this argument. They will burn out on their own game. They are too busy grinding to argue their own point, enjoy the game, or earn the money to pay for the game. They will kill their own reality, because their reality sucks. Many of them are compelled by the same things that drive compulsive gamblers. MMORPG addiction is retaining the WoW community, not good ol' fashioned fun.

Then by your standard, the end game pvp'ing wow player should be quite content, since the end game of wow is pvp, where is the basis of your problem with it? Personally, I hate wow, but it seems to appeal o what you are asking for?

dalevi1

Originally posted by vajuras


its impossible to have a productive discussion here we need to make a distinction here is Lineage 2 not FFA PVP? Is EVE Online FFA PVP? Because the posters saying FFA PVP failed sound like the biggest newbies to this genre too me seeing as how Lineage 2 has over a million subs and hundreds of servers running here in US.
 
EVE Online grew from less then 5k subs to over 200k subs crushing cookie cutter EQ-rewrappers like City Of Heroes (which has DECLINED since launch along with DDO and probably smacking LOTRO too)
Asheron's Call 1 Darktide is most populated server
Hell even UO is still kicking with probbably nearly a hundred servers up
 there is only 1 FFA PVP MMO I know of that was a commercial failure which was Shadowbane- a game that released with a metacritic of 75. not a good score to recruit subs its down there with Vanguard at 68 (www.metacritic.com)
FFA PVP has not failed until you guys realize that all of your arguments will simply fall on death ears til the year 3000+
If you want to make an effective case against it- play the MMO in question longer then 3 months. Point out the flaws. Then your rants will be worth reading. but right now I hjavent read one single convincing post against it. You guys either cant count or just love to rant all day long about nothing....

Hold on there bucky. I played L2 up to level 60 in 2005. L2 does NOT have 100's of servers in NA. Try single digits at best unless you want to count the illegal servers with 20x XP. L2 is FFAPvP, and if that is your goal it is quite fun. I just burned out with the grind/economy over a period of months. PvP was almost non-existent unless you were a top level or just beating down bots who never fought back. For a "FFA PVP" game it was a joke unless you were willing to play past the first year, and that would be a long fucking year when I was playing. BTW, those millions of subs are located in Asia (this is not a snipe on Korean MMOs), not NA.

dalevi1

Originally posted by Cabe2323

Originally posted by vajuras


its impossible to have a productive discussion here we need to make a distinction here is Lineage 2 not FFA PVP? Is EVE Online FFA PVP? Because the posters saying FFA PVP failed sound like the biggest newbies to this genre too me seeing as how Lineage 2 has over a million subs and hundreds of servers running here in US.
 Lineage 2 has been a failure in the western culture.  EvE is an anomoly.  It isn't an RPG so it has no place in this conversation. 
EVE Online grew from less then 5k subs to over 200k subs crushing cookie cutter EQ-rewrappers like City Of Heroes (which has DECLINED since launch along with DDO and probably smacking LOTRO too)
City of Heroes has actually held a pretty steady 150K plus subscribers.  LOTRO is considered currently one of the most popular western MMOs. 
Asheron's Call 1 Darktide is most populated server
I played AC1 for 4.5 years and DT was never the most populated server.   It was also the only PT server while the rest were all PVE servers. 
Hell even UO is still kicking with probbably nearly a hundred servers up
UO's fans hated the PVP aspect and got the game changed to have safe zones. 
 there is only 1 FFA PVP MMO I know of that was a commercial failure which was Shadowbane- a game that released with a metacritic lower then Vanguard. Go figure.... Simple math here
FFA PVP has not failed until you guys realize that all of your arguments will simply fall on death ears til the year 3000+
You still haven't named one single FFA PVP commercially succesful Western MMO game.  Sure EVE is pretty successful in the growth area, but it still has less subscribers then EQ2, WoW, LOTRO, and Final Fantasy XI.  Heck EvE still hasn't reached the peaks hit by EQ1 or DAoC.
If you want to make an effective case against it- play the MMO in question longer then 3 months. Point out the flaws. Then your rants will be worth reading. but right now I hjavent read one single convincing post against it. You guys either cant count or just love to rant all day long about nothing....
I have played pretty much ever P2P Western MMO ever released.  I have played a lot of Eastern MMOs as well.  I have played Betas, Alphas, free trials, and more. 
The fact remains that there has been no successful restriction free PVP game ever released in the Western Market. 

 

Simple math is this, you lied about the number of servers for two games here in the US. L2 is in single digit servers, so is UO. I am sure that will fall on deaf ears, but pull your head out of the sand and learn to count the login servers at the log screen.

KOrnfan4evr

This is towards the peeps that are posting about Gamers and even marines.  



What p isses me off about that is first off it started with someone saying that FFA PVPers Just want to show their Epeens at their uber loot (which will not exist in darkfall mind you ^_^).  But then someone comes in and make sa comment about Marines, then from there we get in a huge debate about the armed forces.  Whose better and even talk about engineering. 



I find it pretty rediculous that you folks would even compare a challenge in a video game to anything IRL, whether its academic or even Real life.  I know many many MANY gamers who are weaker than me and can take less physical activity than me that went through Marines training and got through and are proudly serving this country....while flaunting their e-peen.  



I have nothing but respect for the armed forces but it kinda pisses me off knowing that peole are coming on a video game website saying people that "flaunt their e-peen" cant do anything irl.  The marines dont only take men, they make men out of you.  (Same for the majority of our armed forces, but you got to hand it for our front line bo....im sorry MEN and WOMEN)