Blizzard hardly marketed the game at all in the beginning. It didn't even kick in until 6 months, because they couldn't handle the intial influx of players. It was ALL word of mouth and amazing reviews. Marketing can't buy reviews from every single reputable source. EQ2 was marketed so much more during release and had a far bigger name in the MMO scene. SWG has the biggest license in history and it didn't do them any good.. You can't trick people into playing a MMO. Eve could have all the marketing in the world and it wouldn't get most people past the 1st few hours.
What?! Blizzard had the biggest adv campaign for WoW in a gaming history. I'm talking about the amount of cash spent for it's marketing.
I wouldn't necessarily say its dying. If anything, it's growing. I just think MMO's are at that stage where they're just now starting to learn how to walk. But they're going to fall a number of times before they get it right.
Blizzard hardly marketed the game at all in the beginning. It didn't even kick in until 6 months, because they couldn't handle the intial influx of players. It was ALL word of mouth and amazing reviews. Marketing can't buy reviews from every single reputable source. EQ2 was marketed so much more during release and had a far bigger name in the MMO scene. SWG has the biggest license in history and it didn't do them any good.. You can't trick people into playing a MMO. Eve could have all the marketing in the world and it wouldn't get most people past the 1st few hours.
What?! Blizzard had the biggest adv campaign for WoW in a gaming history. I'm talking about the amount of cash spent for it's marketing.
WoW wasnt marketed at all at the beginning. It didnt need to. All the MMO community was following it. All PC players were following it.
Once it attracted that audience, the real marketing campaign began.
I've never heard more of wow in the press before than during this chirstmas season.
My addiction History: >> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore >> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual >> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.
Blizzard hardly marketed the game at all in the beginning. It didn't even kick in until 6 months, because they couldn't handle the intial influx of players. It was ALL word of mouth and amazing reviews. Marketing can't buy reviews from every single reputable source. EQ2 was marketed so much more during release and had a far bigger name in the MMO scene. SWG has the biggest license in history and it didn't do them any good.. You can't trick people into playing a MMO. Eve could have all the marketing in the world and it wouldn't get most people past the 1st few hours.
What?! Blizzard had the biggest adv campaign for WoW in a gaming history. I'm talking about the amount of cash spent for it's marketing.
And what is your basis for thinking this? Publishers generally don't release information on marketing expenditures. Your assertion that more money was spent on WoW--especially POST-release--than any other game is pretty much false.
Coverage of a game in the media (reviews, news reports, game magazines, etc) is not "advertising." Marketing consists of actual ads--in newspapers, on TV, etc. I didn't see a single commercial for WoW pre-release on G4/TechTV, Spike, Adult Swim, etc--and I don't remember seeing ads anywhere for it.
The game industry followed it themselves--from E3 and the early beta onwards. It spread mostly by word of mouth and internet forums/blogs/etc. Not "advertising."
Either post some factual data or stop making baseless claims.
If you want an example of a huge marketing campaign, look at Halo 3. 7-11 cup tie-ins, constant commercials, XBL ads, internet ads all over the place--they're estimated at having spent tens of millions.
Come on guys, the WOW horse has been beatin to a bloody pulp...numerous times. The two sides are never going to agree here. WOW fans think it's the greatest MMO ever and WOW haters think it's the biggest POS ever. Lets just agree that it's neither of those two. The safe money says that WOW is popular for three main reasons:
1) It's Blizzard
2) It appeals to a wide audience
3) It's very polished
You could definately say that it's a good, solid MMO. Is it a great MMO? Thats entirely subjective. There are too many different preferences among MMO fans to say that any single MMO is the greatest MMO.
Who cares how much they've spent? Whats important is that WOW sold loads before it even began. If anyone was actually paying attention during WOW's release and not relying on bias filled bitterness and hate memories, they would remember that there was very little advertising at all in the begining. EQ2 was being pushed far more. Bigger standies in the in the stores. Bigger posters. Sony was doing a lot more for EQ2 in the begining than Vivendi was. You know why? Blizzard didn't need the advertising!!
The marketing push by Blizzard didn't start until they already sold 1 million+ and started releasing sales numbers. I remember there being a weird lack of advertising. There were LOADS of magazine covers, reviews, word of mouth and preview but no commercials, full page ads or big advertising blitz like there is now. Magazines were hyping it. Reviews was stellar. EVERYONE was loving it. They sold more copies than any other MMO before it all really kicked in. Deny it all you want. Ignore reality. It doesn't matter how much advertising there is for a MMO. If the game isn't a great game, it won't sell. People don't pay subscription fees to play something they don't like. WOW is the most critically acclaimed and best selling MMO to date. Those two facts speak volumes. Certainly much more than some bitter hardcore MMO vets on a forum who have pent up animosity for no apparent reaons.
Blizzard hardly marketed the game at all in the beginning. It didn't even kick in until 6 months, because they couldn't handle the intial influx of players. It was ALL word of mouth and amazing reviews. Marketing can't buy reviews from every single reputable source. EQ2 was marketed so much more during release and had a far bigger name in the MMO scene. SWG has the biggest license in history and it didn't do them any good.. You can't trick people into playing a MMO. Eve could have all the marketing in the world and it wouldn't get most people past the 1st few hours.
What?! Blizzard had the biggest adv campaign for WoW in a gaming history. I'm talking about the amount of cash spent for it's marketing.
And what is your basis for thinking this? Publishers generally don't release information on marketing expenditures. Your assertion that more money was spent on WoW--especially POST-release--than any other game is pretty much false.
Coverage of a game in the media (reviews, news reports, game magazines, etc) is not "advertising." Marketing consists of actual ads--in newspapers, on TV, etc. I didn't see a single commercial for WoW pre-release on G4/TechTV, Spike, Adult Swim, etc--and I don't remember seeing ads anywhere for it.
The game industry followed it themselves--from E3 and the early beta onwards. It spread mostly by word of mouth and internet forums/blogs/etc. Not "advertising."
Either post some factual data or stop making baseless claims.
If you want an example of a huge marketing campaign, look at Halo 3. 7-11 cup tie-ins, constant commercials, XBL ads, internet ads all over the place--they're estimated at having spent tens of millions.
Exactly. Blizzard had no reason to spend so much on advertising pre-release... for all they knew at the time WoW would have had no more success than EQ/DAOC.
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It takes a real man to learn the truth... it takes the truth to learn a real man.
While the MMO genre isn't dying, I'd have tio say it's sick, and very well could die, when WoW dies. Why? Because the smart money is no longer interested in MMOs, and for good reasons.
1) MMOs are too expensive to produce. These days, you just can't sit in your Icelandic basement and churn out an MMO. If you do get some money to develop, at least half of your budget is going toward prkedomotion, expos, etc. That's money that isn't going to coders, art people, etc., but you have to do the promotional side of things to make the investors and the VCs happy.
2) There are other, more extensive and interesting ways to entertain yourself online than with MMOs. These days, you have MySpace, Youtube, Facebook, and Xbox live. You have a whole lot more ways to entertain yourself in cyberspace these days than you did a few years ago. What's more is that it's cheap, and some would say, far more engaging than MMOs for the type of demographic attracted to computer entertainment.
3) Money is harder to come by, because of all the low-performers, unfinished games, overruns, and scams. See the list of games "in development?" It's far shorter now than it was four years ago. Not only that, but how many scams (Dark & Light, Age of Mouring, Horizons, SWG's NGE) and unfinished games (Seed, Vanguard) can this genre endure before both investors and customers say, "screw this, let's play Madden Online?" In Perpetual's case, they failed to even launch at all, despite all the backing of SOE, and all the development time and resources. I don't know about you, but it seems to me that the events of the past four years has brought the chickens home to roost.
WoW is healthy. But if WoW goes, what is really going to replace it? Where will it come from? Who's going to fund it? Why should they when there are so many better things to invest in that don't take millions of dollars and years to produce, with no guarantee it'll even make dime one? Why should the customers believe the hype and buy the preorders, when so many times they've been burned by the Sigils, SOEs, and Farlans of the gaming business?
WoW didn't make MMOs grow. This genre is WoW. When it starts to lose subs, the genre will die.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
While the MMO genre isn't dying, I'd have tio say it's sick, and very well could die, when WoW dies. Why? Because the smart money is no longer interested in MMOs, and for good reasons. 1) MMOs are too expensive to produce. These days, you just can't sit in your Icelandic basement and churn out an MMO. If you do get some money to develop, at least half of your budget is going toward prkedomotion, expos, etc. That's money that isn't going to coders, art people, etc., but you have to do the promotional side of things to make the investors and the VCs happy. 2) There are other, more extensive and interesting ways to entertain yourself online than with MMOs. These days, you have MySpace, Youtube, Facebook, and Xbox live. You have a whole lot more ways to entertain yourself in cyberspace these days than you did a few years ago. What's more is that it's cheap, and some would say, far more engaging than MMOs for the type of demographic attracted to computer entertainment. 3) Money is harder to come by, because of all the low-performers, unfinished games, overruns, and scams. See the list of games "in development?" It's far shorter now than it was four years ago. Not only that, but how many scams (Dark & Light, Age of Mouring, Horizons, SWG's NGE) and unfinished games (Seed, Vanguard) can this genre endure before both investors and customers say, "screw this, let's play Madden Online?" In Perpetual's case, they failed to even launch at all, despite all the backing of SOE, and all the development time and resources. I don't know about you, but it seems to me that the events of the past four years has brought the chickens home to roost. WoW is healthy. But if WoW goes, what is really going to replace it? Where will it come from? Who's going to fund it? Why should they when there are so many better things to invest in that don't take millions of dollars and years to produce, with no guarantee it'll even make dime one? Why should the customers believe the hype and buy the preorders, when so many times they've been burned by the Sigils, SOEs, and Farlans of the gaming business? WoW didn't make MMOs grow. This genre is WoW. When it starts to lose subs, the genre will die.
Good points. It's pretty insane when you think about how much of an investment it takes to make a top quality MMO, hardly seems worth it actually. It won't come as much of a suprise when every major MMO released in the near future follows the WOW path of appealing to the widest possible audience by what ever means neccessary. The only hope for those of us who aren't interested in these games will be the innovative MMO's released by smaller companies (as usual) and the possibility that some one will find a way to make the development process MUCH MUCH cheaper and much more accessible.
Yeah. I don't play MMOs to burn through content. That's what single player games are for. I haven't really gotten into an MMORPG since UO. Did enjoy PlanetSide for 3 years but that's something different. The Face of Mankind beta also held my interest for about 6 months. That's really been it for the past 10 years.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
*Raises hand* Yeah. I don't play MMOs to burn through content. That's what single player games are for. I haven't really gotten into an MMORPG since UO. Did enjoy PlanetSide for 3 years but that's something different. The Face of Mankind beta also held my interest for about 6 months. That's really been it for the past 10 years.
Maybe 'dying' is too strong a term... 'languishing' perhaps.
As already mentioned, the titles cost too much to produce, which causes fear of innovation. Kind of like blockbuster movies are getting worse and worse imo as well. But what innovation 'could' occur, probably can't, because the technology (internet bandwidth) can not support it.
The next big revolution/generation in gaming will be people wearing 3d goggle displays, communicating with voip, swinging a Wii type sword, fighting in 100v100 groups to take a castle, then ravaging pixelated wenches of the defeated nations.... or something like that. Until then, while we all live on DSL and Cable, there will just be clonage, with maybe a new feature here and there. Different titles may be promising a realistic world with mass battles and real time moves, but until I see it, I don't believe it. Even WoW with it's more simplistic graphics could not pull it off, (hence the creation of battlegrounds).... Until everyone gets fiber to their house, it ain't gonna happen... and fiber to every home is at least 15+ years away...
So look for more 'low risk' .... 'un-innovative' .... 'famous IP' .... CLONAGE....(quests, skills, class-balancing, click click click dumb mobs, etc.)
Maybe 'dying' is too strong a term... 'languishing' perhaps. As already mentioned, the titles cost too much to produce, which causes fear of innovation. Kind of like blockbuster movies are getting worse and worse imo as well. But what innovation 'could' occur, probably can't, because the technology (internet bandwidth) can not support it. The next big revolution/generation in gaming will be people wearing 3d goggle displays, communicating with voip, swinging a Wii type sword, fighting in 100v100 groups to take a castle, then ravaging pixelated wenches of the defeated nations.... or something like that. Until then, while we all live on DSL and Cable, there will just be clonage, with maybe a new feature here and there. Different titles may be promising a realistic world with mass battles and real time moves, but until I see it, I don't believe it. Even WoW with it's more simplistic graphics could not pull it off, (hence the creation of battlegrounds).... Until everyone gets fiber to their house, it ain't gonna happen... and fiber to every home is at least 15+ years away... So look for more 'low risk' .... 'un-innovative' .... 'famous IP' .... CLONAGE....(quests, skills, class-balancing, click click click dumb mobs, etc.)
The problem with 3d goggles is that they have circuits. Circuits release radio waves. Radio waves charge the electrons in your skin cells and cause them to shoot out. This causes your cells to decay and form into tumors. Eventually, if the 3d goggles are on long enough, you will be the proud owner of a self induced brain tumor.
The problem with 3d goggles is that they have circuits. Circuits release radio waves. Radio waves charge the electrons in your skin cells and cause them to shoot out. This causes your cells to decay and form into tumors. Eventually, if the 3d goggles are on long enough, you will be the proud owner of a self induced brain tumor.
Rock and Roll !! Maybe then all the carebears will just go play checkers or something!
I'm sure it's already been said but I'll state my opinion too.
I don't feel it's dying by a long shot. I do feel it's going through a period of mediocrity.
The MMO's that have come out recently are drawing from the success of the linear console MMO's in an attempt to gain more players and it's working. IMO to the dumbing down detriment of the genre.
I by no means consider myself a hardcore player, but I did like alot of the grind aspects of the earlier games such as AC and EQ. Coming from a P&P background, things like making my own arrows, death penalties, and having to figure out your magic spells by trial and error made for more immersion to me.
Then again, for many of us in the early days, we weren't just playing a game. We were explorers and part of the worlds with which we interacted.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
I agree and don't agree with a lot of what has been said. I think its wrong to look at wow and say, hmmm games are getting worse. What WoW has offered is a place for casual gamers to have fun, the games that don't want to get to into the community, the ones that want to run an instance in 30 minutes. One company dilivers that and the hardcore community turns around and says HEY THATS NOT COMPLICATED ENOUGH... when really alot of the community had been screeming a long time for it.
What wow presents is a good game for the dude that can only play a short time not the dude that's got 57 cans of Rockstar beside his computer.
Do I miss UO? .... OHHHH hell ya, I miss it like I would miss my dog if he died. I'm sad as hell I can't find a game that felt as free as UO did back in the day. In my opinion no game has matched what UO did for me back in the day. I'll never forget being a kid with my little GM tinker named Shai'tan and tottaly not knowing what the name was from. PK's stealing my damn ore and then killing my pack horse... Why?.... God Man that cost me 500 gold, you could have just taken it from the bag... *sighs* I knew I should have been a tamer and got a nightmare. Stuff like that... that just pops into your head when you think back, no... *sighs* wow doesn't give me that and never will... but that doesn't make it a bad game, just... diffrent, like comparing tetris to Myst... They aren't the same.
And numbers are only rising for MMO's, and if what I've heard is true and blizzard is making another mmo, and its one of their own seires... the numbers are only going up.
So I suppose I agree with one of the first posts... They aren't dieing just the honesty in the, they feel cold now. However it wont always be this way... I have hope for the future, no its not here yet and it wont be for awhile if Blizzard keeps doing its thing cause other companys will always attempt to atain Blizzard like succsess not realizing what has mad WoW so big... and thats simple word of mouth, and they got that threw having some of the largest single player games of all time.... its taken blizzard a long time to get where they are at and with alot of money and hard work and some very talented people.... I still have memories of playing Warcraft 2 on an IPX against my friends.
Games like Age of Conan are giving me hope... maybe it wont be good but hey... its something diffrent I hope. I like Tabula Rasa for the simple fact that its a new idea. I don't like the game hehe but hey they tried and I'm hella happy they did and I hope they do well cause that will only make more companys think hey mabey we can do that to.
Sometimes I wish the community would get their thumbs out of their a__, and start trying to help cause not all but some of the developers are actaully listening and all they keep hearing is Oh this sucks no This sucks to... Whats good then? I'm happy with the things are going personaly so don't look to me to ask for anything cause you know what, as much as I like UO, I've tried to go back and I don't like it, and not because of the whole Fell Trammel thing I just don't like the game anymore so I don't want to go back.
WoW is good for what it is, but it lacks a uniqueness to it. I think players cry out to much for class balance and soon all classes seem the same, if a class can't do something, they create a trinket that does it instead.
I would like to find a game that gets away from levels, I mean grinding is bad enough without having a bar showing how slow it is going. If a game could offer true character development based on how a player plays that would be a step in the right direction. For example, most games are gear driven, we search for the "great drop" and will run an instance however many times it takes until it drops. The game becomes a continual quest for better and better gear. To me, I would rather DPS come from skill instead of gear. All games do give better DPS for higher skills, but it pales in comparison to the DPS upgrade you can get from gear. Quest to increase sword proficiency, random drops/discoveries of techniques, so on and so forth.
Most, if not all games allow me to see the lvl/class of other players or NPCs by simply clicking on them. Without levels there is more of a mystery to the game. In PVP, you couldn't just click on the enemy and know if you are going to win or lose. You would be asking yourself, "I wonder what this guy knows, or what is he proficient in?" This could be taken even further by doing away with professions. Shouldn't my skill set determine my profession. If I want to wear plate and cast spells, why can't I? Heavy armor could reduce casting speed and damage bonuses, but if I like wearing plate, I should have the option. The armor and the spells would only be as good as my proficiency anyways, and you can not be proficient at everything. Give me a character that begins with nothing and let me shape him according to my playing style.
I also like the idea of the players shaping the world around them. Borders should not be a fixed line. Give the Players/Guilds/Allegiances freedom to effect the world around them. Let it be based on my actions, not player setup. Politics and intrigue should be part of the game. To use WoW as an example, In player creation, I pick my allegiance good/evil, my class, and my race. Is there really enough choices after that to really effect who I am? Let factions determine if I am good or evil or even neutral. have the benefits or dangers be intertwined in the game. Maybe I want to be an Orc that hangs out with Dwarves, and they accept me for the good person I am. I should be able to attack anyone at anytime. Obviously attacking someone who has developed a "good" persona would lessen my persona from good greatly, but I should still have the option (How many times have you wanted to kill someone in your group?) Make the game about action and consequence.
Anyways, thats my 2 cents. I want a game with freedom where rewards or consequences are around every corner.
WoW is healthy. But if WoW goes, what is really going to replace it? Where will it come from? Who's going to fund it? Why should they when there are so many better things to invest in that don't take millions of dollars and years to produce, with no guarantee it'll even make dime one? Why should the customers believe the hype and buy the preorders, when so many times they've been burned by the Sigils, SOEs, and Farlans of the gaming business? WoW didn't make MMOs grow. This genre is WoW. When it starts to lose subs, the genre will die.
I dont agree at all
by this argument - all nonWOW MMOs are failures or failing
yet plenty of MMOs that *predate* WOW are still pumping out expansions...
(UO, EQ1, EQ2, DAOC, FFXI, etc)
are they succesful as WOW?
not by a longshot (and never were)
if WOW disappeared these MMOs would still be around
I don't see it as dying so much as I see it being flooded with too many MMOs, many of which are being pushed out for a quick buck and thus the quality is lacking and the string of less than stellar outcomes you see. WoW has not helped things, as they brought in a mess of people who are looking for more overly simplistic EZmode MMOs. Basically, we need fewer, quality, more complex MMOs not more thrown together generic mass market focused money grinders.
I don't think you can say "the MMO business is only going to grow" by looking at the sub numbers in games like WoW, Second Life, Guild Wars. That was yesterday's news (by yesterday, I mean news from two years ago). Yes, those games have grown, and some indies have grown (EVE and Knight Online), but these were all created a long time ago (in tech time), and you have to seriously ask yourself the question of, "how much more can you realistically hope to gain with these guys?"
I think the more important question we should be asking is, "what sort of growth is there in new games?" When asked this way, the prognosis for the industry is a bit more grim. Yes, you have a lot of hype around the imminent launch of WAR and Age of Conan . Yes, you have Jumpgate: Evolution making progress. A month ago, you could have added Perpetual's "Gods and Heroes" to the list, but the whole "Gods and Heroes" drama lately just proves to me something that I've seen happen all too often in the last four years: the industry can't seem to produce new titles that are even moderately successful.
There have been far more failures than successes in this business over the last four years or so. Some games just never get launched (Gods and Heroes, Star Trek Online, Huxley, Darkfall, Stargate, PotBS). In fact, I've seen about as many if not more games from that "in development" list disappear than get bumped up to the "Released Games." If they do, they tend to be scams (Horizons, Dark and Light), not fit for release (Vanguard, Roma Victor, Seed), or serious underperformers (Ryzom, Shadowbane, Auto Assault). If you can start producing a title, the odds are stacked against you even launching it. If you do manage to launch it, the odds are that you've launched it in an unfinished state. If you do launch in a somewhat finished state, the odds are that you'll go broke within a year, and assuming that you don't go broke, you won't be able to have enough money coming in to maintain the game at the level you'd want post-release. In short, the industry just can't seem to grow titles, it only seems to be able to grow sub numbers from already existing games.
Which makes me think that while WoW, Guild Wars, Lineage II, EQII, Knight Online, and EVE seem to be in good shape, if not growing; the industry as a whole isn't in good shape, or might be dying. What happens when the novelty wears off for the above marquee titles? Those titles are old, or are getting older fast. What is going to replace them if or when subscribers leave? You can update them, but what if the updates have the reverse effect (ala SWG-NGE), or no effect at all (ala CoH)?
We always think that there will be other games for them to gravitate to, but that list looks awfully small down in the corner, and is getting shorter each quarter. Not only that, but there are so many other ways to amuse yourself online today than there were even a few years ago. Rather than ask ourselves, "why isn't the industry working?," we should ask ourselves, "why should the public bother with MMOs?"
So, why should people who aren't in MMOs now get into MMOs today, given that they have MySpace, Facebook, XBox Live, YouTube, and a whole lot of other things? Moreover, why should the WoW diehard try other MMOs if they are sick of WoW, when they have a whole lot of other non-MMO online stuff to do?
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I feel that the mmo industry is just beginning. Iv only played one mmo that I truley felt pulled into and that was FFXI. I played that when I had ALOT of time in high school and wasnt working. Now that I am in college and work... FFXI has fallen off the radar and its no even an option anymore. Iv played all the popluar mmos and none have even come close to captivating my attention again.
So I am waiting for the day that the MMO industrsy create an mmo that understands what gamers truley want. Dont get me wrong there are some really good mmos, but all of them seem to be copy and paste.
So no the MMO era is not dieing its only beginning.
So, why should people who aren't in MMOs now get into MMOs today, given that they have MySpace, Facebook, XBox Live, YouTube, and a whole lot of other things? Moreover, why should the WoW diehard try other MMOs if they are sick of WoW, when they have a whole lot of other non-MMO online stuff to do?
Rofl, this has to be the most clueless comparison I have ever seen. Are you seriously comparing Myspace and Facebook with an MMO?
Ouch, did you fall really really hard on your head when you were young ?
I dont feel it is dying it just need"(excuse the pun here) a hero,The industry is crying for 1 everytime a log on here everyone is saying "man we need a new game(insert bonnie tyler song "we need a hero")And tbh it is over due,With at least 4 big names due early next year I am keeping the faith that 1 or more will deliver and if (god forbid) all 4 do come up trumps then how happy will we be ,Pigs in sh*t wont have nothing on us,We are just in a slump now and looking to the future and lets hope thats a rainbow we see and not a comet.
If someone had came up to me in 1980 when I was on my Atari 2600 and said we will be playing games with thousands of people at the same time.I guess my response would have been,"but I only have 2 joysticks"
Comments
What?! Blizzard had the biggest adv campaign for WoW in a gaming history. I'm talking about the amount of cash spent for it's marketing.
REALITY CHECK
I wouldn't necessarily say its dying. If anything, it's growing. I just think MMO's are at that stage where they're just now starting to learn how to walk. But they're going to fall a number of times before they get it right.
What?! Blizzard had the biggest adv campaign for WoW in a gaming history. I'm talking about the amount of cash spent for it's marketing.
WoW wasnt marketed at all at the beginning. It didnt need to. All the MMO community was following it. All PC players were following it.
Once it attracted that audience, the real marketing campaign began.
I've never heard more of wow in the press before than during this chirstmas season.
My addiction History:
>> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore
>> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual
>> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.
What?! Blizzard had the biggest adv campaign for WoW in a gaming history. I'm talking about the amount of cash spent for it's marketing.
And what is your basis for thinking this? Publishers generally don't release information on marketing expenditures. Your assertion that more money was spent on WoW--especially POST-release--than any other game is pretty much false.
Coverage of a game in the media (reviews, news reports, game magazines, etc) is not "advertising." Marketing consists of actual ads--in newspapers, on TV, etc. I didn't see a single commercial for WoW pre-release on G4/TechTV, Spike, Adult Swim, etc--and I don't remember seeing ads anywhere for it.
The game industry followed it themselves--from E3 and the early beta onwards. It spread mostly by word of mouth and internet forums/blogs/etc. Not "advertising."
Either post some factual data or stop making baseless claims.
If you want an example of a huge marketing campaign, look at Halo 3. 7-11 cup tie-ins, constant commercials, XBL ads, internet ads all over the place--they're estimated at having spent tens of millions.
Yes they do if they are publicly traded.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Come on guys, the WOW horse has been beatin to a bloody pulp...numerous times. The two sides are never going to agree here. WOW fans think it's the greatest MMO ever and WOW haters think it's the biggest POS ever. Lets just agree that it's neither of those two. The safe money says that WOW is popular for three main reasons:
1) It's Blizzard
2) It appeals to a wide audience
3) It's very polished
You could definately say that it's a good, solid MMO. Is it a great MMO? Thats entirely subjective. There are too many different preferences among MMO fans to say that any single MMO is the greatest MMO.
Who cares how much they've spent? Whats important is that WOW sold loads before it even began. If anyone was actually paying attention during WOW's release and not relying on bias filled bitterness and hate memories, they would remember that there was very little advertising at all in the begining. EQ2 was being pushed far more. Bigger standies in the in the stores. Bigger posters. Sony was doing a lot more for EQ2 in the begining than Vivendi was. You know why? Blizzard didn't need the advertising!!
The marketing push by Blizzard didn't start until they already sold 1 million+ and started releasing sales numbers. I remember there being a weird lack of advertising. There were LOADS of magazine covers, reviews, word of mouth and preview but no commercials, full page ads or big advertising blitz like there is now. Magazines were hyping it. Reviews was stellar. EVERYONE was loving it. They sold more copies than any other MMO before it all really kicked in. Deny it all you want. Ignore reality. It doesn't matter how much advertising there is for a MMO. If the game isn't a great game, it won't sell. People don't pay subscription fees to play something they don't like. WOW is the most critically acclaimed and best selling MMO to date. Those two facts speak volumes. Certainly much more than some bitter hardcore MMO vets on a forum who have pent up animosity for no apparent reaons.
What?! Blizzard had the biggest adv campaign for WoW in a gaming history. I'm talking about the amount of cash spent for it's marketing.
And what is your basis for thinking this? Publishers generally don't release information on marketing expenditures. Your assertion that more money was spent on WoW--especially POST-release--than any other game is pretty much false.
Coverage of a game in the media (reviews, news reports, game magazines, etc) is not "advertising." Marketing consists of actual ads--in newspapers, on TV, etc. I didn't see a single commercial for WoW pre-release on G4/TechTV, Spike, Adult Swim, etc--and I don't remember seeing ads anywhere for it.
The game industry followed it themselves--from E3 and the early beta onwards. It spread mostly by word of mouth and internet forums/blogs/etc. Not "advertising."
Either post some factual data or stop making baseless claims.
If you want an example of a huge marketing campaign, look at Halo 3. 7-11 cup tie-ins, constant commercials, XBL ads, internet ads all over the place--they're estimated at having spent tens of millions.
Exactly. Blizzard had no reason to spend so much on advertising pre-release... for all they knew at the time WoW would have had no more success than EQ/DAOC.
===
It takes a real man to learn the truth... it takes the truth to learn a real man.
While the MMO genre isn't dying, I'd have tio say it's sick, and very well could die, when WoW dies. Why? Because the smart money is no longer interested in MMOs, and for good reasons.
1) MMOs are too expensive to produce. These days, you just can't sit in your Icelandic basement and churn out an MMO. If you do get some money to develop, at least half of your budget is going toward prkedomotion, expos, etc. That's money that isn't going to coders, art people, etc., but you have to do the promotional side of things to make the investors and the VCs happy.
2) There are other, more extensive and interesting ways to entertain yourself online than with MMOs. These days, you have MySpace, Youtube, Facebook, and Xbox live. You have a whole lot more ways to entertain yourself in cyberspace these days than you did a few years ago. What's more is that it's cheap, and some would say, far more engaging than MMOs for the type of demographic attracted to computer entertainment.
3) Money is harder to come by, because of all the low-performers, unfinished games, overruns, and scams. See the list of games "in development?" It's far shorter now than it was four years ago. Not only that, but how many scams (Dark & Light, Age of Mouring, Horizons, SWG's NGE) and unfinished games (Seed, Vanguard) can this genre endure before both investors and customers say, "screw this, let's play Madden Online?" In Perpetual's case, they failed to even launch at all, despite all the backing of SOE, and all the development time and resources. I don't know about you, but it seems to me that the events of the past four years has brought the chickens home to roost.
WoW is healthy. But if WoW goes, what is really going to replace it? Where will it come from? Who's going to fund it? Why should they when there are so many better things to invest in that don't take millions of dollars and years to produce, with no guarantee it'll even make dime one? Why should the customers believe the hype and buy the preorders, when so many times they've been burned by the Sigils, SOEs, and Farlans of the gaming business?
WoW didn't make MMOs grow. This genre is WoW. When it starts to lose subs, the genre will die.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Good points. It's pretty insane when you think about how much of an investment it takes to make a top quality MMO, hardly seems worth it actually. It won't come as much of a suprise when every major MMO released in the near future follows the WOW path of appealing to the widest possible audience by what ever means neccessary. The only hope for those of us who aren't interested in these games will be the innovative MMO's released by smaller companies (as usual) and the possibility that some one will find a way to make the development process MUCH MUCH cheaper and much more accessible.
*Raises hand*
Yeah. I don't play MMOs to burn through content. That's what single player games are for. I haven't really gotten into an MMORPG since UO. Did enjoy PlanetSide for 3 years but that's something different. The Face of Mankind beta also held my interest for about 6 months. That's really been it for the past 10 years.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Planetside. The best game ever.
Maybe 'dying' is too strong a term... 'languishing' perhaps.
As already mentioned, the titles cost too much to produce, which causes fear of innovation. Kind of like blockbuster movies are getting worse and worse imo as well. But what innovation 'could' occur, probably can't, because the technology (internet bandwidth) can not support it.
The next big revolution/generation in gaming will be people wearing 3d goggle displays, communicating with voip, swinging a Wii type sword, fighting in 100v100 groups to take a castle, then ravaging pixelated wenches of the defeated nations.... or something like that. Until then, while we all live on DSL and Cable, there will just be clonage, with maybe a new feature here and there. Different titles may be promising a realistic world with mass battles and real time moves, but until I see it, I don't believe it. Even WoW with it's more simplistic graphics could not pull it off, (hence the creation of battlegrounds).... Until everyone gets fiber to their house, it ain't gonna happen... and fiber to every home is at least 15+ years away...
So look for more 'low risk' .... 'un-innovative' .... 'famous IP' .... CLONAGE....(quests, skills, class-balancing, click click click dumb mobs, etc.)
To put it simply. No. I do not see the MMO industry dropping out any time soon, in fact i see the exact opposite.
The problem with 3d goggles is that they have circuits. Circuits release radio waves. Radio waves charge the electrons in your skin cells and cause them to shoot out. This causes your cells to decay and form into tumors. Eventually, if the 3d goggles are on long enough, you will be the proud owner of a self induced brain tumor.
Rock and Roll !! Maybe then all the carebears will just go play checkers or something!
I'm sure it's already been said but I'll state my opinion too.
I don't feel it's dying by a long shot. I do feel it's going through a period of mediocrity.
The MMO's that have come out recently are drawing from the success of the linear console MMO's in an attempt to gain more players and it's working. IMO to the dumbing down detriment of the genre.
I by no means consider myself a hardcore player, but I did like alot of the grind aspects of the earlier games such as AC and EQ. Coming from a P&P background, things like making my own arrows, death penalties, and having to figure out your magic spells by trial and error made for more immersion to me.
Then again, for many of us in the early days, we weren't just playing a game. We were explorers and part of the worlds with which we interacted.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
I agree and don't agree with a lot of what has been said. I think its wrong to look at wow and say, hmmm games are getting worse. What WoW has offered is a place for casual gamers to have fun, the games that don't want to get to into the community, the ones that want to run an instance in 30 minutes. One company dilivers that and the hardcore community turns around and says HEY THATS NOT COMPLICATED ENOUGH... when really alot of the community had been screeming a long time for it.
What wow presents is a good game for the dude that can only play a short time not the dude that's got 57 cans of Rockstar beside his computer.
Do I miss UO? .... OHHHH hell ya, I miss it like I would miss my dog if he died. I'm sad as hell I can't find a game that felt as free as UO did back in the day. In my opinion no game has matched what UO did for me back in the day. I'll never forget being a kid with my little GM tinker named Shai'tan and tottaly not knowing what the name was from. PK's stealing my damn ore and then killing my pack horse... Why?.... God Man that cost me 500 gold, you could have just taken it from the bag... *sighs* I knew I should have been a tamer and got a nightmare. Stuff like that... that just pops into your head when you think back, no... *sighs* wow doesn't give me that and never will... but that doesn't make it a bad game, just... diffrent, like comparing tetris to Myst... They aren't the same.
And numbers are only rising for MMO's, and if what I've heard is true and blizzard is making another mmo, and its one of their own seires... the numbers are only going up.
So I suppose I agree with one of the first posts... They aren't dieing just the honesty in the, they feel cold now. However it wont always be this way... I have hope for the future, no its not here yet and it wont be for awhile if Blizzard keeps doing its thing cause other companys will always attempt to atain Blizzard like succsess not realizing what has mad WoW so big... and thats simple word of mouth, and they got that threw having some of the largest single player games of all time.... its taken blizzard a long time to get where they are at and with alot of money and hard work and some very talented people.... I still have memories of playing Warcraft 2 on an IPX against my friends.
Games like Age of Conan are giving me hope... maybe it wont be good but hey... its something diffrent I hope. I like Tabula Rasa for the simple fact that its a new idea. I don't like the game hehe but hey they tried and I'm hella happy they did and I hope they do well cause that will only make more companys think hey mabey we can do that to.
Sometimes I wish the community would get their thumbs out of their a__, and start trying to help cause not all but some of the developers are actaully listening and all they keep hearing is Oh this sucks no This sucks to... Whats good then? I'm happy with the things are going personaly so don't look to me to ask for anything cause you know what, as much as I like UO, I've tried to go back and I don't like it, and not because of the whole Fell Trammel thing I just don't like the game anymore so I don't want to go back.
WoW is good for what it is, but it lacks a uniqueness to it. I think players cry out to much for class balance and soon all classes seem the same, if a class can't do something, they create a trinket that does it instead.
I would like to find a game that gets away from levels, I mean grinding is bad enough without having a bar showing how slow it is going. If a game could offer true character development based on how a player plays that would be a step in the right direction. For example, most games are gear driven, we search for the "great drop" and will run an instance however many times it takes until it drops. The game becomes a continual quest for better and better gear. To me, I would rather DPS come from skill instead of gear. All games do give better DPS for higher skills, but it pales in comparison to the DPS upgrade you can get from gear. Quest to increase sword proficiency, random drops/discoveries of techniques, so on and so forth.
Most, if not all games allow me to see the lvl/class of other players or NPCs by simply clicking on them. Without levels there is more of a mystery to the game. In PVP, you couldn't just click on the enemy and know if you are going to win or lose. You would be asking yourself, "I wonder what this guy knows, or what is he proficient in?" This could be taken even further by doing away with professions. Shouldn't my skill set determine my profession. If I want to wear plate and cast spells, why can't I? Heavy armor could reduce casting speed and damage bonuses, but if I like wearing plate, I should have the option. The armor and the spells would only be as good as my proficiency anyways, and you can not be proficient at everything. Give me a character that begins with nothing and let me shape him according to my playing style.
I also like the idea of the players shaping the world around them. Borders should not be a fixed line. Give the Players/Guilds/Allegiances freedom to effect the world around them. Let it be based on my actions, not player setup. Politics and intrigue should be part of the game. To use WoW as an example, In player creation, I pick my allegiance good/evil, my class, and my race. Is there really enough choices after that to really effect who I am? Let factions determine if I am good or evil or even neutral. have the benefits or dangers be intertwined in the game. Maybe I want to be an Orc that hangs out with Dwarves, and they accept me for the good person I am. I should be able to attack anyone at anytime. Obviously attacking someone who has developed a "good" persona would lessen my persona from good greatly, but I should still have the option (How many times have you wanted to kill someone in your group?) Make the game about action and consequence.
Anyways, thats my 2 cents. I want a game with freedom where rewards or consequences are around every corner.
by this argument - all nonWOW MMOs are failures or failing
yet plenty of MMOs that *predate* WOW are still pumping out expansions...
(UO, EQ1, EQ2, DAOC, FFXI, etc)
are they succesful as WOW?
not by a longshot (and never were)
if WOW disappeared these MMOs would still be around
EQ2 fan sites
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
EAT ME MMORPG.com!
I don't think you can say "the MMO business is only going to grow" by looking at the sub numbers in games like WoW, Second Life, Guild Wars. That was yesterday's news (by yesterday, I mean news from two years ago). Yes, those games have grown, and some indies have grown (EVE and Knight Online), but these were all created a long time ago (in tech time), and you have to seriously ask yourself the question of, "how much more can you realistically hope to gain with these guys?"
I think the more important question we should be asking is, "what sort of growth is there in new games?" When asked this way, the prognosis for the industry is a bit more grim. Yes, you have a lot of hype around the imminent launch of WAR and Age of Conan . Yes, you have Jumpgate: Evolution making progress. A month ago, you could have added Perpetual's "Gods and Heroes" to the list, but the whole "Gods and Heroes" drama lately just proves to me something that I've seen happen all too often in the last four years: the industry can't seem to produce new titles that are even moderately successful.
There have been far more failures than successes in this business over the last four years or so. Some games just never get launched (Gods and Heroes, Star Trek Online, Huxley, Darkfall, Stargate, PotBS). In fact, I've seen about as many if not more games from that "in development" list disappear than get bumped up to the "Released Games." If they do, they tend to be scams (Horizons, Dark and Light), not fit for release (Vanguard, Roma Victor, Seed), or serious underperformers (Ryzom, Shadowbane, Auto Assault). If you can start producing a title, the odds are stacked against you even launching it. If you do manage to launch it, the odds are that you've launched it in an unfinished state. If you do launch in a somewhat finished state, the odds are that you'll go broke within a year, and assuming that you don't go broke, you won't be able to have enough money coming in to maintain the game at the level you'd want post-release. In short, the industry just can't seem to grow titles, it only seems to be able to grow sub numbers from already existing games.
Which makes me think that while WoW, Guild Wars, Lineage II, EQII, Knight Online, and EVE seem to be in good shape, if not growing; the industry as a whole isn't in good shape, or might be dying. What happens when the novelty wears off for the above marquee titles? Those titles are old, or are getting older fast. What is going to replace them if or when subscribers leave? You can update them, but what if the updates have the reverse effect (ala SWG-NGE), or no effect at all (ala CoH)?
We always think that there will be other games for them to gravitate to, but that list looks awfully small down in the corner, and is getting shorter each quarter. Not only that, but there are so many other ways to amuse yourself online today than there were even a few years ago. Rather than ask ourselves, "why isn't the industry working?," we should ask ourselves, "why should the public bother with MMOs?"
So, why should people who aren't in MMOs now get into MMOs today, given that they have MySpace, Facebook, XBox Live, YouTube, and a whole lot of other things? Moreover, why should the WoW diehard try other MMOs if they are sick of WoW, when they have a whole lot of other non-MMO online stuff to do?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I feel that the mmo industry is just beginning. Iv only played one mmo that I truley felt pulled into and that was FFXI. I played that when I had ALOT of time in high school and wasnt working. Now that I am in college and work... FFXI has fallen off the radar and its no even an option anymore. Iv played all the popluar mmos and none have even come close to captivating my attention again.
So I am waiting for the day that the MMO industrsy create an mmo that understands what gamers truley want. Dont get me wrong there are some really good mmos, but all of them seem to be copy and paste.
So no the MMO era is not dieing its only beginning.
Rofl, this has to be the most clueless comparison I have ever seen. Are you seriously comparing Myspace and Facebook with an MMO?
Ouch, did you fall really really hard on your head when you were young ?
I dont feel it is dying it just need"(excuse the pun here) a hero,The industry is crying for 1 everytime a log on here everyone is saying "man we need a new game(insert bonnie tyler song "we need a hero")And tbh it is over due,With at least 4 big names due early next year I am keeping the faith that 1 or more will deliver and if (god forbid) all 4 do come up trumps then how happy will we be ,Pigs in sh*t wont have nothing on us,We are just in a slump now and looking to the future and lets hope thats a rainbow we see and not a comet.
If someone had came up to me in 1980 when I was on my Atari 2600 and said we will be playing games with thousands of people at the same time.I guess my response would have been,"but I only have 2 joysticks"
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/235780/page/8