This game was admittedly designed for gaming consoles and is therefore a watered down version of a true MMORPG. It's worth as an "MMO" should not even be seriously debated considering this very clear truth. Further, this game in my opinion has the potential to damage the overall genera, bringing the core of what an MMO is to new lows. Please don't misunderstand me; I'm not trying to attack anyone personally. I'm trying to point out that the sole reason this corporation (Funcom) made this game is to try and tap into a bigger market. In other words they are exploiting our genera for financial gains and we as MMO gamers should consider the damage it has the potential to cause to it. Again, I'm not attacking anyone personally but consider the damage World of Warcraft has caused. It was such a hit ($$$) that every other, more complex MMO tried to emulate it. In effect, dumbing down the genera. I like to compare World of Warcraft to pop music because pop music is very shallow and easy to understand and (admittedly) fun to listen to, and it out sells all other styles of music (by a large margin). Pop music has damaged other styles of music, like country music (which today is candyass pop-fluff w/ no soul), ditto pop punk rock and nu metal. It is in this way that these watered down MMO's are going to damage our genera. You can say that it does not matter, that it's just another duck on the pond - but I respectfully disagree. In fact, I've lost much hope for the genera. These corporations ruin everything. Music is milked ruthlessly and turned into shallow trends, punk fashion is sold in mass chain stores like Hot Topic, it never ends. They destroy the essence of whatever it is they are trying to exploit-for-profit. MMORPG's are no exception. I'm out.
OMG you sound exactly like dictator from one of those banana countries..
80% of people love to listen POP music, 80% love to drink lager instead real beer, 80% people love fast food, 80% people love to watch Hollywood popcorn movies, 80% people love to play graphic shallow MMO(WoW, AOC) more than true deep one without graphic(MUD), etc.... it's just a way it is, and always will be.
He point something out , you as a AoC fanboi is hurt, belonging to that 80%, calls him dictator:(.
You sir are plain evil in calling someone a dictator.
Everybody is entitled to there opinion, freedom of speech, you maybe not agree with him, but becouse 80% likes junk, dont mean its ok then.
AoC is dumbdown for consoles and avarage gameplay, if you like it or not.
Its also a endless grind fest even wursh then WoW, but in few months alot will see and agree with this.
There many more things to point out why AoC is a bad game but it dont matter, you like it or not as simple as that.
Future will tell if mmo community like this kind of game, 6year old game design with 2008 grafics(dont see why people say this, only water looks 2008 grafics but ok lets not be to negative here).
I'm so sorry man, my intention was not to upset anyone, 'dictator' thing was a joke, thats why I put that smiley there.
Regarding AOC, I'm not funboi, will not buy that game simple because I cant stand zoning/instancing (GW experience was more than enough), and I knew this looong time ago before release, but I don't have nothing against peoples that love this game. Doomsayers are breed that I love to tackle here and there.
First of all AoC is not destroying anything and although you are right in a way about things getting changed, it will always be this way, things will never remain the same its the order of life, things just simply evolve, whether its for the good or the bad it is up to each person to decide. I personally don't think AoC is damaging the genre by taking it to another level but that is just my opinion but I do agree that somethings are making our future look sadder than ever(Spongebob again my opinion) but we just have to learn to adapt and move on with our lives because as you said, (most) corporations only care about money these days but its just human nature so what can we do about it.
The point is that virtual worlds are NOT evolving.. they are de-evolving into linear, small, instanced console type games with on-line mode.
It's amazing how so many people can miss the entire point of this thread.
Maybe your point wouldn't get overlooked if you actually talked about it instead of rabbling on about pop music, evil soul stealing corporations, punk fashion, etc. None of those things really has a lick to do with MMOs and comparing them in some self tailored analogy doesn't make your points clear or valid. It actually does more to derail your post than anything it attempts to help with.
I do very much agree with you about zoning, over instancing and small tiny worlds being steps backward for where I would like to see games heading. None of those are qualities I found enjoyable in games I've played. I could say the same thing about games that use classes and restrict everything by using levels. Neither are enjoyable to me compared to other styles of games, but they are functional.
While is might be a console game turned PC, there are a number of things that are good directions. Trying a new combat system which is perhaps the most needed aspect change right now. More detailed graphics are nice [but not at the total expense of everything else]. Town seiges or whatever they are going to be called is a positive step [when they get implemented].
Please don't read this as my endorsement of Conan executing anything properly or failing to do whatever. I haven't had enough time to play to form a real opinion. In fact the game is still sitting in the box as I am debating returning it. I just don't wan't to send reward money to someone who put out another unfinished game which is sounds like it is.
Vanguard and Age of Conan are both great games in some ways, the elitist posture ( again, without any fundation ) come from the players that thing if something needs more time or is less popular ( the anti posture ) is deeper or have more meaning.
Again, if we talk about music, a masterpiece of Dodecafonia may be hard to understand, a Romantic expression is a deep expression in a emotional sense, but these are pure art expressions... but, metal, punk and rock are easy to understand as rap is, all are pop music and entertainment.
In games there is no such thing as pure art or pop, they are all at the same level with different mechanics.
See, a metal fan or a mmorpg player may act as a elit member and judge what is shallow and what is not, but he is making a mistake and this is a common mistake, most of people in US and today´s culture has this egomaniac failure and what feed this mistake is mass culture.
In North America ( here in South America too), a lot of people seems to just think they know everything, it is the NA ego cult, but see, if you dont know art ( and if you think rock is not pop, you dont know nothing about art ) and what is shallow and what is not ( see, the impression that deeper is better than shallow is not exacly the truth ), you just cant know or judge a game or a person of been shallow in that way, if you do that it is just a social clichê.
Again, if you dont understand all the art movements we had, from the Classical to Postmodern, you just cant use any art argument to show what you like among pop culture is deeper than what your neibhor like... and to tell the truth, if you understand this, you wont have any nessecity to prove anything to anyone, share knolowdge is always more productive than the false elit posture "Im better than the rest".
Whats ironic is that major film makers often openly attack mainstream society, evil corporations, etc. (in essence, saying the same things I am), and I bet these same conformists in this thread love and watch these same films - but somehow miss the point entirely. American Beauty is a perfect example.
This post is written on caffeine and I really shouldn't be getting into the music and film side of this but meh...
I think you need to be careful with the above paragraph as it sort of hints that there is only one valid entire point in a movie. In reality, I think movies have many levels of meaning. Some meanings are only reached through people with particular life experiences. For myself, it is one of the joys of watching a movie with my friends.
However I would not disagree that Hollywood productions are entirely visceral and are read on a superficial level. Though at the same time I would not say all movies are supposed to have depth. My friends and myself often scorn moves which are perceived like this. Rightly or wrongly. Yet occasionally we engage in this guilty dumbed down pleasure. Though occasionally its 4 AM (again) and were discussing the headf*** that is the Donnie Darko plot.
Back to MMO's I do agree that compared to even Hollywood movies MMO's are not thought provoking nor challenging social norms and taboos. NPC's, for example, are not given a purpose or meaning beyond XP collection place holders. The same often goes for wider MMO aspects. Quests are always “go kill X, go do this and here is a exact position on a well laid out map” (Yes... the exploration bit was a lie!). The outcome of which has no affect on your character. There are no consequences. Oddly in some games the monotony of this style is often not replicated in patches. (E.g. City of Heroes took this too far and later added limtied cut scenes and slightly more flexible missions).
I find the above disparity between movies and games odd given the average age of a gamer is something like 20 odd. I don't believe that my generation is that dumbed down. Even, I'm not that cynical (yet). I'd say the current batch of MMO's get it wrong or do not employ pluralism (a kind of limited sandbox) in there design. Whether this is because of evil mega corporations prmoting material to dumb down the masses, or whether simply stupid and/or trapped in a system which promotes lacklustre products; is a larger argument that is way outside AOC or MMO's in general !
So I guess I am kind of agreeing with the OP's post that developers are to blame for meaningless content, ironically with promise of actually meaning on the box .... BUT ...
Again to trying to end positive! I would like to point out that every MMO a company produces, every engine created there is potential to sell another product. (It may shock some people to know LOTRO engine is a modified DDO one). Eventually I think an organisation, probably a smaller company ( not EA !) will break the barrier above. Maybe this will be done in one title maybe in several to please several people. The time for this ? I don't know but not this year that's for damn sure.
But.. yeah.. AOC is not breaking any non graphical barriers (despite its marketing claims to), even tiny ones which is why it gets my thumbs down.
Maybe your point wouldn't get overlooked if you actually talked about it instead of rabbling on about pop music, evil soul stealing corporations, punk fashion, etc. None of those things really has a lick to do with MMOs and comparing them in some self tailored analogy doesn't make your points clear or valid. It actually does more to derail your post than anything it attempts to help with.
From my posts I've tried to stay out of music, movies and politics and failed. Firstly, all the products are created in society which we consume them. The latest MMO game (AOC) or latest blockbuster. I think the OP pretty clued up (if not extreme in places) to look at things in larger framework. AOC was always going to draw comparisons with movies because of its rating. (Music I am avoiding a bit more as its complicated for myself)
Secondly, not exactly aimed at AOC but given what passes for quality in software and quality elsewhere it probably is a good move.
Again, I'm not attacking anyone personally but consider the damage World of Warcraft has caused. It was such a hit ($$$) that every other, more complex MMO tried to emulate it. In effect, dumbing down the genera.
I'm sorry guys, but there is a reason why WoW was so popular. It was a great game. I tried playing Everquest long before WoW was even thought about, and I couldn't stand it. Friends tried getting me into other 2d ORPGs and I didn't like them, where later WoW had me immediately. People like to say WoW was a fluke, they are wrong. It was the first decent MMORPG where everything else was just plain HORRIBLE.
sigh fanboi service
AOC is not hurting the mmo buisness if any game is its WoW that is its a watered down game that realy isnt very good if u have played enough mmo games.
WoW has popularized MMOs which means more money will be invested in more MMOs since people can now see that there's lots of $$ to be made. Which means more games to appeal to everyone out there instead of there only being a small selection of MMOs.
AoC has its issues, but don't all MMOs? AoC has gone down the 'dx10 graphics with M rated content path'. If it takes off, there's bound to be an increase in mature games which is good news for all the 'adults' out there isn't it?
C'mon a Leisure Suit Larry MMO. No I have no idea how it'd work, but it'd be funny lol.
..btw Umbral, your post burns my retinas to the point I just skipped it. Turn off the bolding plz.
but, metal, punk and rock are easy to understand as rap is, all are pop music and entertainment.
See, this is just not true.
Rap is easy to understand. But metal and punk? The harsh sound of these two styles are not very commercial or radio friendly. Sure, in the 80's and early 90's you had a lot of pop metal and pop punk bands that got a lot of radio play.
The point is these two styles of music - in their stripped down form - are NOT pop music. Just ask my old lady. In fact, you can't even understand whats being said with out lyrics. You call that pop music?
Do they play Black Flag on the radio? Do you hear Slayer on the Pop 100? The lyrics and sound are too 'extreem.'
This has nothing to do with this topic, and dude I know what your trying to say, but there is a difference.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
Maybe saying it's simple is more appropriate then saying it's shallow. Whether or not something is found to be Shallow is almost entirely a matter of opinion, as is the concept of complexity being a merit in itself. When something is simple, however, it's pretty f%$&ing obvious to the people it concerns.
To developers it's not just art and you're not just an art appreciator; it's also a product and you're also a consumer. The "average" person is going to choose lighter entertainment over complexity, because they just want to relax and have fun. There is still a significant demand for complex mmos, it's just that much more unlikely to see them released when the costs to develop them are so high.
Whether or not it's a matter of perspective.... is really a matter of perspective.
but, metal, punk and rock are easy to understand as rap is, all are pop music and entertainment.
See, this is just not true.
Rap is easy to understand. But metal and punk? The harsh sound of these two styles are not very commercial or radio friendly. Sure, in the 80's and early 90's you had a lot of pop metal and pop punk bands that got a lot of radio play.
The point is these two styles of music - in their stripped down form - are NOT pop music. Just ask my old lady. In fact, you can't even understand whats being said with out lyrics. You call that pop music?
Do they play Black Flag on the radio? Do you hear Slayer on the Pop 100? The lyrics and sound are too 'extreem.'
This has nothing to do with this topic, and dude I know what your trying to say, but there is a difference.
First, just to make it clear, when I use the pop word, it is not in a bad way.
See , punk is ment to be simple, and it needs to be easy to understand, but there is a product part in every punk or metal band, we always see t-shirts of bands like Slayer, Bauhaus, Morbid Angel, Anathema to sell, this means rock/metal have a product side, even the struture of metal and rock songs are based in a pop pattern.
There are two types of music, erudite and popular music.
Even the troubador is an exemple of pop music, but today´s pop music have a product label on it.
Non pop music is related to an artistic movement, like classical, romantic etc.
We can have a romantic or classic ( or any of them ) influence in pop music , as a progressive rock band using classical strings arrangements in a song, but even if it sounds like a classical song, it is not a classical composition, because it is not related to all classical concepts.
“Understand” music is a complex debate, most of people enjoy music, understand is a different matter. If someone is listening to Wagner or Mahler and dont know nothing about romantism, this person will problably not understand most elements inside the music and why those elements are there. Same with Dodecafonia or even any Postmodern composition, even so , some people may only enjoy it, but not understand.
I know, you may say, we can understand art and feel it in anyway, but this is not exacly the truth, as art related to a movement has a reason to exist, and arent there only to rise emotions... it can for sure only rise some emotions, but there is a deeper meaning than that.
Pop music, even when is agressive just need to be enjoyed, there is almost nothing beyong the song and lyrics and this is not exacly bad, this can be good and sometimes very expressive.
In Modernism and Postmodernism it is possible to unite some pop aspects with some of the modern and past erudite aspects, as Postmodernism ( today´s movement ) is related to all past movements. You can notice this aspect in the work of Arrigo Barnabe and even in a pop/underground band called Laibach... in some ways, musical scores from movies and even games are a Postmodern expression.
We can find art in games ( there is a lot of art in Age of Conan ), but a game is not and will never be a piece of art, it is a product.
About the shallow or not debate, It is hard to judge games in that way, as even between a very artistic game like Syberia and an ultra popular game like Halo, the difference between deep and shallow is even less obvious than a comparison between the popular 70s movie Omega Man and the very expressive russian movie Vozvrashcheniye. When we talk about MMORPGS the only base we have to judge if it is shallow or deep ( at least today ) is just our opinion and taste, most people here is judging Age of Conan only based in the game mechanics and not for the concept of this game. The concept is not related from how many people is inside a zone, the mechanic of gameplay is, and if you think about the concept, music, art, lore and visual creation Age of Conan is a very advanced game.
We can agree there are a lot of cheap and non expressive productions in movies and music, but we cant tell the same about mmorpgs, not at least today, as the gameplay has nothing to do with shallow or deep.
Hank Williams III is a very outspoken critic of what he calls "pop country."
Some of his lyrics: "Cos if you know what I'm thinking, you'll know that pop country really sucks." As well as "Cos the kind of country I'm hearing now days is a bunch of fucking shit to me." And then there is traditionalist country artists like Dale Watson who sings "Thats country my ass, force feed us that shit, gettin real tired of it."
In punk you had bands like Black Flag that intentionally gave their music a very harsh sound and would mumble lyrics on purpose so as not to appeal to radio, etc. Kurt Cobain would often mumble lyrics for these same reasons (snubbing his nose at commercialism and trends).
I recently traveled from Texas to New Orleans to see Down play. Phil Anselmo had quite a lot to say about corporate rock and MTV.
I enjoy music that feels genuine. Henry Rollins of Black Flag is constantly speaking out against corporate fashion trends and corporate pop punk. In short you are ignoring these aspects of this argument because these things I'm pointing out contradict what you are saying (trying to lump all music into "popular culture").
Look at how they have commercialized the Ramones - to the point that I'm embarrassed to wear my old Ramones t-shirts now.
The Ramones are pop punk (based largly on early 60's bubble gum sound with "street" lyrics). You could even say punk was born as pop. I will admit this point.
But genuine ("real") music comes from the people, like folk, county, and yes late 70's early 80's hardcore punk. It's something the very poor kids from broken homes could relate to (real street kids, like in London at the time).
When a huge faceless corporation takes that "realness" and mass markets it to suburban kids (like me) then that is what I'm trying to express here.
This is exactly what happened to Grunge in the early 90's. It was a local Seattle scene that was exploited and mass marketed on MTV to millions of kids around the country. MTV also promoted the fashion trend of flannel shirts to the point that in Seattle at the time NO ONE would be caught dead wearing flannel.
Whar are we left with when local music in openly anti-commercial by its nature (Grunge) and yet the corporations somehow pimp it into pop music?
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
Interesting discussion going on here about the generations. As a genx'r, i can't help but feel that society as we know it is heading head first at great speed into the sort of thing depicted in the movie "Idiocracy". If you haven't seen it, its worth a watch for that reason alone.
MMO producers are following the same trend, catering to the lowest common denominator. Just like how our TV media is gone down the toilet. Our science channels are full of motorcycle grease monkeys, for instance. WTF. Our popular shows are now those idiotic reality show affairs, which keep getting dumber and dumber.
At this rate in 2-3 generations we'll mostly be back to being apes.
Interesting discussion going on here about the generations. As a genx'r, i can't help but feel that society as we know it is heading head first at great speed into the sort of thing depicted in the movie "Idiocracy". If you haven't seen it, its worth a watch for that reason alone.
MMO producers are following the same trend, catering to the lowest common denominator. Just like how our TV media is gone down the toilet. Our science channels are full of motorcycle grease monkeys, for instance. WTF. Our popular shows are now those idiotic reality show affairs, which keep getting dumber and dumber. At this rate in 2-3 generations we'll mostly be back to being apes.
OMG you sound exactly like dictator from one of those banana countries..
80% of people love to listen POP music, 80% love to drink lager instead real beer, 80% people love fast food, 80% people love to watch Hollywood popcorn movies, 80% people love to play graphic shallow MMO(WoW, AOC) more than true deep one without graphic(MUD), etc.... it's just a way it is, and always will be.
I'm with this guy. The OP is nothing more than an elitist and condescending load of drivel with a disturbing touch of paranoia.
Age of Conan is helping to destroy the MMO genre? Geesh, what a drama queen. Last I checked, neither EVE nor even Ultima Online have shut down their servers. The Darkfall forums are that way.
The main issue you are talking about is not exacly the pop thing, but how some record companies changed the music from the peope to the poeple to just a comercial product to people.
About punk ( and I admit, I enjoy a couple of post-punk bands, not exacly punk bands ), the funny thing is, the beginning of punk was an example of this kind of fabricated music and posture, but I think you agree with it.
But what I said is not contradicted, what is pop still pop , with heart and quality or without heart and quality.
Most of record companies are falling apart, and this attitude is the main reason for it.
But pop music still pop music, from metal to synthpop from rap to punk, we can agree about the low quality of some pop fabricated productions, and as far as I agree about pop ( independent or not ) can be expressive, I dont agree it has a deeper artistic value, maybe a strong emotional value.
But again, I dont think we can compare games and mmos to music or movies, as a movie a game (Age of Conan, Vanguard, Soul Reaver, Bioshock) is a production with art content, entertainment and personal value, but the mechanic, technology and gameplay are there too (some games like Tetris only has these parts), a game is a functional and efemere creation, music and movies arent.
If you enjoy art and expression, and get games like Age of Conan and Bioshock, even if you dont enjoy the gameplay, you would understand these games have value and quality... trust-me the gaming industry is much more healthy and creative than the corrupted musical industry from today.
How is AoC destroying the MMo market? People have to want to keep playing it for it to be a success. I see an awful lot of blogs, posts, and reviews that say after a month you won't want to play this game ever again. Just look at all the people who can't believe they waisted 50 bucks on this just a week ago.
Well , here is an answer to , why AoC forums are flooded with hatred :- First this game could not get gamers gaming the reason is because of it's poor mechanics.
Secondly the Tech Support is messed up as the game development and implementation could not handle so much stability issues.
Thirdly , when people get irritated they post about games in forums and AoC could exactly do that by making me purchase the game , i feel like being cheated .
The other points include , if you are irritated about something , then you should write back and let people know and thus i am writing my feelings about the game which may be hatred for you.
Moreover it is the duty of a gamer to let other gamers know , specially when the game costs money and the poor gaming buddy will be as skillfully cheated as i am by this Funcom .
And above all , AoC could not get me gaming and thus in this time till stargate worlds comes up , i really want to play the longest running game of posting truth on forums than go and play the other games that i have already played for years.
I actually wanted to contribute something worthwhile to this thread but I think I'd be branded as a NA egotist, as the one with the biggest ego(I found) said, for saying my opinion and being told that people think that I think that my opinion is the sole truth, etc.. Isn't that the definition of an opinion? To 'think' that you're right? Afterall it's a judgement formed in your own mind about something..
Sorry my post isn't about the game, but the person who quoted the term 'NA ego cult' rubbed me the wrong way, this person is the one who's arrogant in eyes. To use this term to accuse alot of people for being egotistic and trying to degrade them for being so, whilst being one yourself throughout the entire thread is just plain hypocritical, don't you think?
Well , here is an answer to , why AoC forums are flooded with hatred :- First this game could not get gamers gaming the reason is because of it's poor mechanics.
Secondly the Tech Support is messed up as the game development and implementation could not handle so much stability issues.
Thirdly , when people get irritated they post about games in forums and AoC could exactly do that by making me purchase the game , i feel like being cheated .
The other points include , if you are irritated about something , then you should write back and let people know and thus i am writing my feelings about the game which may be hatred for you.
Moreover it is the duty of a gamer to let other gamers know , specially when the game costs money and the poor gaming buddy will be as skillfully cheated as i am by this Funcom .
And above all , AoC could not get me gaming and thus in this time till stargate worlds comes up , i really want to play the longest running game of posting truth on forums than go and play the other games that i have already played for years.
Cheers
Had to scroll this big font text up and down repeatedly to trip me out and bring me back to reality from my brain turning into mush after reading this entire thread(I mean everything that eveyrone had posted)..
I'm not a fan of AOC, more like I'm waiting for Aion, but I hope I can mooch off one of my friend's copy of this game to try it out. hehe
This game was admittedly designed for gaming consoles and is therefore a watered down version of a true MMORPG. AOC lead developer: "we designed AoC to be a console game from the beginning" "AoC's combat system has gone through nine iterations throughout Funcom's quest to make it appealing to console users." link It's worth as an "MMO" should not even be seriously debated considering this very clear truth. Further, this game in my opinion has the potential to damage the overall genera, bringing the core of what an MMO is to new lows. Please don't misunderstand me; I'm not trying to attack anyone personally. I'm trying to point out that the sole reason this corporation (Funcom) made this game is to try and tap into a bigger market. In other words they are exploiting our genera for financial gains and we as MMO gamers should consider the damage it has the potential to cause to it. Again, I'm not attacking anyone personally but consider the damage World of Warcraft has caused. It was such a hit ($$$) that every other, more complex MMO tried to emulate it. In effect, dumbing down the genera. I like to compare World of Warcraft to pop music because pop music is very shallow and easy to understand and (admittedly) fun to listen to, and it out sells all other styles of music (by a large margin). Pop music has damaged other styles of music, like country music (which today is candyass pop-fluff w/ no soul), ditto pop punk rock and nu metal. It is in this way that these watered down MMO's are going to damage our genera. You can say that it does not matter, that it's just another duck on the pond - but I respectfully disagree. In fact, I've lost much hope for the genera. These corporations ruin everything. Music is milked ruthlessly and turned into shallow trends, punk fashion is sold in mass chain stores like Hot Topic, it never ends. They destroy the essence of whatever it is they are trying to exploit-for-profit. MMORPG's are no exception. I'm out.
In response, you have not (imo) sufficiently explained how WOW/AOC et al have "damaged" the MMO genre. Anymore than you have explained how POP music damages other types of music. Because "some" people are chasing the pop success and making "pop" versions of other genres does not take away from the original essence. Alot of rap went "gangsta" in the 90's because that was drawing in the money. that fact didnt stop groups like Arrested Development / Digable Planets/Tribe Called Quest, etc. etc. from still making great music and staying true to their own styles. The only thing gansta rap had over other forms of rap is that it was played more on the popular shows/radio. And so what?
Insofar as the games, you need to stop imposing your idea of "fun" on everyone else. Harkening back to the days of EQ1 where tremendous time sinks were the order of the day is not and never will be "fun" for some. Has it ever occured to you that instead of being ground breaking, those original games were just poorly developed or lacked the technology to do things any other way. You sound like some old biddy waxing nostoligic about days of old. Those days of old sucked, and most gamers do not want to go back to them.
AOC is FINE, WOW if FINE, EVE Online is fine, LOTRO is fine, etc. all of these games have interesting aspects to them and something for everyone. Are they part of pop culture, sure in some ways, and in others they bring forth some refreshing ideas that some people enjoy. If you dont like them, dont play them. EQ1 is still around go and resub and for the love of god please stop playing chicken little up in here. The skys not falling, anymore than AOC is helping destroy the MMO genre. You'll be saying the same thing about WAR in several months.
Well well, I used the NA ego cult term, so I think you are talking about me...
How do you think the rest of the world see the US and NA posture?
You do realized I said it happens in South America too, right? I didnt say everyone in US and NA is lost in his ego...but yes, the cult is real.
See, an opinion is a point of view, if you think an opinion is “you are right and the rest is lesser and is wrong”, sorry, you just fell in this ego cult thing that seems to ofend you.
If you decide to express your judgement formed in your mind you will need arguments to support your judgement, if without arguments you think you are right only because it is in your mind.. well, you fell on it again.
Just curious, how I tried to degrede anyone?
My ego is the biggest here only because you just didnt understand what I said?
you have not (imo) sufficiently explained how WOW/AOC et al have "damaged" the MMO genre. Anymore than you have explained how POP music damages other types of music.
Ok, let me try to make it clear.
But first let me ask you a question: just what is an MMORPG to you? A game, sure. To me it is a virtual world.
When you play the old games like UO, SWG and lately Vanguard you see huge open worlds. And that is the main point.. the worlds are getting increasingly smaller.
Whats more, gameplay is increasingly linear (like a car on a rail). You are locked into a class and can not evolve as a character. There is almost no interdependency. And this has nothing to do with skill based vs. level based.
In short, the games are now less like virtual worlds and more like arcade action games with small 'play areas' for the "world."
As far as how pop music is destroying other types of music.
First let clear up the term pop music. In the late 1950's "pop music" became a genre of music. In the 70's and especially the 80's pop music was defined by bands like Madonna and Michael Jackson. It is no longer a term to define any song under 5 minutes that consists of certain elements or structure.
If you need an example take country music. Todays pop country snubs it's nose at tradition (this is the key point). Go listen to Tim Mcgraw sing Indian Outlaw and then go listen to Johnny Cash sing Country Boy.
Mcgraw's song was not written by him (the lyrics or the music) and features whats called "pop hooks" and computerized sound effects. Further his image is very "Hollywood," his shows are full of fog effects and special effect (pyrotechnics).
On the other hand, Johnny Cash wrote his song about something he has experienced, being poor and fishing as a small boy so he can eat. Further, it's just the man and his guitar.
So Mcgraw's song lyrics is idiotic fluff with a sound that has no roots and sounds like something Madonnas might feel at home with. Nashville has been taken over completely by Hollywood and is destroying the heart and soul of country music by turinging it into mindless fluff.
If you can't see how this is dumbing down people then I can't help you.
I could make an example of this about almost any style of music.
And I used music as an example of dumbing down entertainment, never said it's the same exact thing as electronic games (which should have been obvious).
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
This game IS driving the final nail in the coffin of the mmo genre! The problem is that greedy companies want us to pay for indefinite, extended beta. They market games with tons of hype and promises and then decide to pull content and make changes and the truth is revealed at launch. Funcom blatantly lied about DX10. That alone (not for the sake of getting or not getting DX10) should have had players leaving in droves. We are being treated like "15$ a month sheep". That is all. The companies just add the very basic to get a game going and hope to finish later with players money. Or not. Even highly succesful mmos like WoW never repaid the customers with free expansions or truly expanded on the game. Looking at the profits and all they gave was two expansions, one still not out and that is it. No giving back to customers. Just pure corporate greed. I find it sad, because I love the idea of mmos. But having to play unfinished games is a joke. And listening to these angry, flaming fanboys is even worse. People with real problems in the game (petitions getting deleted etc.) are being flamed for stating their problems. No community support! No community period. Look at this post from the US forums:
Life at 80.
First off, I realize there are only a small minority of us who actually hit 80..but soon more and more people be hitting 80 within the next week. However, if some of these aren't fixed, people will be just as bored as I am.
- Can't progress past T2 weapon smithing due to not receiving credit for creating the weapons.
- Can't get past Alchemy T1 due to apparently 3 or so items not dropping yet.
- Can't farm mats for T1 city, we finished everything but walls/gates/towers, just need the gold.
- Can't farm the instance in Thunder River due to no item or money drops from the bosses.
- Can't farm the Raider's hideout due to no item or money drop from the boss we killed.
- Decide to get through the onyx chamber? Perfect only 2-5 min respawn rate.
- Invisible mobs (not exclusive to 72+ content, but it is even worse in these higher end instances.)
- Mobs aggroing through a wall in Atzel's Fortress.
- Die in a 70-80 instance? Perfect, res at your HEARTH POINT. It has happened both in the Raider's hideout and in Atzel's Fortress.
- No pvp experience, no meaning to killing someone. While my guild controlled a camp of 76+ mobs in southern Khashata, they kept running in trying to zerg us throughout the whole night, didn't work but they kept doing it losing nothing.
But hey I guess I can farm gold in the Main System for the 50g horse, but hey that is probably just ask bugged as the 2g horse.
How come the game who advertised MASSIVE EPIC SIEGE WARFARE in the media for 5 years can launch the game without sieges, battlekeeps or tier 2+3 player cities. All the content people really want is not there.
And the ressources and crafting is a joke. The ressources never flip around. Always based the same place. And the player cities are located in instances NO ONE ever need to visit. There is no incentive to go to your player city and neither will other players see it, because you like occupy instance X for example.. The guild I am in is in instance FIVE of Poitain...
So yes... the MMO GENRE IS DYING indeed...
Here's to hoping some game comes along and saves us all...
this got me thinking should i just send my game back .
How come the game who advertised MASSIVE EPIC SIEGE WARFARE in the media for 5 years can launch the game without sieges, battlekeeps or tier 2+3 player cities. All the content people really want is not there.
all this should of been ready to go have we been ripped off we just paying to get the rest of the game out is it right that they can
At some point life will catch up with you and you will realise that all these are entertaining avenues, not some sort of cult with rules and regulations to uphold. People don't care about semantics, they care about fun. Fun factor is all that matters and fun factor will dictate whether this game will make it past the initial month.
I'm getting flashbacks here from the time where people were moaning about Diablo not being a true RPG and destroying the gender. Give it a couple of years and it'll become a non-argument as well.
Comments
OMG you sound exactly like dictator from one of those banana countries..
80% of people love to listen POP music, 80% love to drink lager instead real beer, 80% people love fast food, 80% people love to watch Hollywood popcorn movies, 80% people love to play graphic shallow MMO(WoW, AOC) more than true deep one without graphic(MUD), etc.... it's just a way it is, and always will be.
He point something out , you as a AoC fanboi is hurt, belonging to that 80%, calls him dictator:(.You sir are plain evil in calling someone a dictator.
Everybody is entitled to there opinion, freedom of speech, you maybe not agree with him, but becouse 80% likes junk, dont mean its ok then.
AoC is dumbdown for consoles and avarage gameplay, if you like it or not.
Its also a endless grind fest even wursh then WoW, but in few months alot will see and agree with this.
There many more things to point out why AoC is a bad game but it dont matter, you like it or not as simple as that.
Future will tell if mmo community like this kind of game, 6year old game design with 2008 grafics(dont see why people say this, only water looks 2008 grafics but ok lets not be to negative here).
I'm so sorry man, my intention was not to upset anyone, 'dictator' thing was a joke, thats why I put that smiley there.
Regarding AOC, I'm not funboi, will not buy that game simple because I cant stand zoning/instancing (GW experience was more than enough), and I knew this looong time ago before release, but I don't have nothing against peoples that love this game. Doomsayers are breed that I love to tackle here and there.
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"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
It's amazing how so many people can miss the entire point of this thread.
Maybe your point wouldn't get overlooked if you actually talked about it instead of rabbling on about pop music, evil soul stealing corporations, punk fashion, etc. None of those things really has a lick to do with MMOs and comparing them in some self tailored analogy doesn't make your points clear or valid. It actually does more to derail your post than anything it attempts to help with.I do very much agree with you about zoning, over instancing and small tiny worlds being steps backward for where I would like to see games heading. None of those are qualities I found enjoyable in games I've played. I could say the same thing about games that use classes and restrict everything by using levels. Neither are enjoyable to me compared to other styles of games, but they are functional.
While is might be a console game turned PC, there are a number of things that are good directions. Trying a new combat system which is perhaps the most needed aspect change right now. More detailed graphics are nice [but not at the total expense of everything else]. Town seiges or whatever they are going to be called is a positive step [when they get implemented].
Please don't read this as my endorsement of Conan executing anything properly or failing to do whatever. I haven't had enough time to play to form a real opinion. In fact the game is still sitting in the box as I am debating returning it. I just don't wan't to send reward money to someone who put out another unfinished game which is sounds like it is.
There are some huge mistakes here.
First, there is no such thing as an elitist game.
Vanguard and Age of Conan are both great games in some ways, the elitist posture ( again, without any fundation ) come from the players that thing if something needs more time or is less popular ( the anti posture ) is deeper or have more meaning.
Again, if we talk about music, a masterpiece of Dodecafonia may be hard to understand, a Romantic expression is a deep expression in a emotional sense, but these are pure art expressions... but, metal, punk and rock are easy to understand as rap is, all are pop music and entertainment.
In games there is no such thing as pure art or pop, they are all at the same level with different mechanics.
See, a metal fan or a mmorpg player may act as a elit member and judge what is shallow and what is not, but he is making a mistake and this is a common mistake, most of people in US and today´s culture has this egomaniac failure and what feed this mistake is mass culture.
In North America ( here in South America too), a lot of people seems to just think they know everything, it is the NA ego cult, but see, if you dont know art ( and if you think rock is not pop, you dont know nothing about art ) and what is shallow and what is not ( see, the impression that deeper is better than shallow is not exacly the truth ), you just cant know or judge a game or a person of been shallow in that way, if you do that it is just a social clichê.
Again, if you dont understand all the art movements we had, from the Classical to Postmodern, you just cant use any art argument to show what you like among pop culture is deeper than what your neibhor like... and to tell the truth, if you understand this, you wont have any nessecity to prove anything to anyone, share knolowdge is always more productive than the false elit posture "Im better than the rest".
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This post is written on caffeine and I really shouldn't be getting into the music and film side of this but meh...
I think you need to be careful with the above paragraph as it sort of hints that there is only one valid entire point in a movie. In reality, I think movies have many levels of meaning. Some meanings are only reached through people with particular life experiences. For myself, it is one of the joys of watching a movie with my friends.
However I would not disagree that Hollywood productions are entirely visceral and are read on a superficial level. Though at the same time I would not say all movies are supposed to have depth. My friends and myself often scorn moves which are perceived like this. Rightly or wrongly. Yet occasionally we engage in this guilty dumbed down pleasure. Though occasionally its 4 AM (again) and were discussing the headf*** that is the Donnie Darko plot.
Back to MMO's I do agree that compared to even Hollywood movies MMO's are not thought provoking nor challenging social norms and taboos. NPC's, for example, are not given a purpose or meaning beyond XP collection place holders. The same often goes for wider MMO aspects. Quests are always “go kill X, go do this and here is a exact position on a well laid out map” (Yes... the exploration bit was a lie!). The outcome of which has no affect on your character. There are no consequences. Oddly in some games the monotony of this style is often not replicated in patches. (E.g. City of Heroes took this too far and later added limtied cut scenes and slightly more flexible missions).
I find the above disparity between movies and games odd given the average age of a gamer is something like 20 odd. I don't believe that my generation is that dumbed down. Even, I'm not that cynical (yet). I'd say the current batch of MMO's get it wrong or do not employ pluralism (a kind of limited sandbox) in there design. Whether this is because of evil mega corporations prmoting material to dumb down the masses, or whether simply stupid and/or trapped in a system which promotes lacklustre products; is a larger argument that is way outside AOC or MMO's in general !
So I guess I am kind of agreeing with the OP's post that developers are to blame for meaningless content, ironically with promise of actually meaning on the box .... BUT ...
Again to trying to end positive! I would like to point out that every MMO a company produces, every engine created there is potential to sell another product. (It may shock some people to know LOTRO engine is a modified DDO one). Eventually I think an organisation, probably a smaller company ( not EA !) will break the barrier above. Maybe this will be done in one title maybe in several to please several people. The time for this ? I don't know but not this year that's for damn sure.
But.. yeah.. AOC is not breaking any non graphical barriers (despite its marketing claims to), even tiny ones which is why it gets my thumbs down.
From my posts I've tried to stay out of music, movies and politics and failed. Firstly, all the products are created in society which we consume them. The latest MMO game (AOC) or latest blockbuster. I think the OP pretty clued up (if not extreme in places) to look at things in larger framework. AOC was always going to draw comparisons with movies because of its rating. (Music I am avoiding a bit more as its complicated for myself)
Secondly, not exactly aimed at AOC but given what passes for quality in software and quality elsewhere it probably is a good move.
I'm sorry guys, but there is a reason why WoW was so popular. It was a great game. I tried playing Everquest long before WoW was even thought about, and I couldn't stand it. Friends tried getting me into other 2d ORPGs and I didn't like them, where later WoW had me immediately. People like to say WoW was a fluke, they are wrong. It was the first decent MMORPG where everything else was just plain HORRIBLE.
sigh fanboi service
AOC is not hurting the mmo buisness if any game is its WoW that is its a watered down game that realy isnt very good if u have played enough mmo games.
Neither WoW or AoC are hurting the MMO genre.
WoW has popularized MMOs which means more money will be invested in more MMOs since people can now see that there's lots of $$ to be made. Which means more games to appeal to everyone out there instead of there only being a small selection of MMOs.
AoC has its issues, but don't all MMOs? AoC has gone down the 'dx10 graphics with M rated content path'. If it takes off, there's bound to be an increase in mature games which is good news for all the 'adults' out there isn't it?
C'mon a Leisure Suit Larry MMO. No I have no idea how it'd work, but it'd be funny lol.
..btw Umbral, your post burns my retinas to the point I just skipped it. Turn off the bolding plz.
Rap is easy to understand. But metal and punk? The harsh sound of these two styles are not very commercial or radio friendly. Sure, in the 80's and early 90's you had a lot of pop metal and pop punk bands that got a lot of radio play.
The point is these two styles of music - in their stripped down form - are NOT pop music. Just ask my old lady. In fact, you can't even understand whats being said with out lyrics. You call that pop music?
Do they play Black Flag on the radio? Do you hear Slayer on the Pop 100? The lyrics and sound are too 'extreem.'
This has nothing to do with this topic, and dude I know what your trying to say, but there is a difference.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
Maybe saying it's simple is more appropriate then saying it's shallow. Whether or not something is found to be Shallow is almost entirely a matter of opinion, as is the concept of complexity being a merit in itself. When something is simple, however, it's pretty f%$&ing obvious to the people it concerns.
To developers it's not just art and you're not just an art appreciator; it's also a product and you're also a consumer. The "average" person is going to choose lighter entertainment over complexity, because they just want to relax and have fun. There is still a significant demand for complex mmos, it's just that much more unlikely to see them released when the costs to develop them are so high.
Whether or not it's a matter of perspective.... is really a matter of perspective.
Rap is easy to understand. But metal and punk? The harsh sound of these two styles are not very commercial or radio friendly. Sure, in the 80's and early 90's you had a lot of pop metal and pop punk bands that got a lot of radio play.
The point is these two styles of music - in their stripped down form - are NOT pop music. Just ask my old lady. In fact, you can't even understand whats being said with out lyrics. You call that pop music?
Do they play Black Flag on the radio? Do you hear Slayer on the Pop 100? The lyrics and sound are too 'extreem.'
This has nothing to do with this topic, and dude I know what your trying to say, but there is a difference.
First, just to make it clear, when I use the pop word, it is not in a bad way.
See , punk is ment to be simple, and it needs to be easy to understand, but there is a product part in every punk or metal band, we always see t-shirts of bands like Slayer, Bauhaus, Morbid Angel, Anathema to sell, this means rock/metal have a product side, even the struture of metal and rock songs are based in a pop pattern.
There are two types of music, erudite and popular music.
Even the troubador is an exemple of pop music, but today´s pop music have a product label on it.
Non pop music is related to an artistic movement, like classical, romantic etc.
We can have a romantic or classic ( or any of them ) influence in pop music , as a progressive rock band using classical strings arrangements in a song, but even if it sounds like a classical song, it is not a classical composition, because it is not related to all classical concepts.
“Understand” music is a complex debate, most of people enjoy music, understand is a different matter. If someone is listening to Wagner or Mahler and dont know nothing about romantism, this person will problably not understand most elements inside the music and why those elements are there. Same with Dodecafonia or even any Postmodern composition, even so , some people may only enjoy it, but not understand.
I know, you may say, we can understand art and feel it in anyway, but this is not exacly the truth, as art related to a movement has a reason to exist, and arent there only to rise emotions... it can for sure only rise some emotions, but there is a deeper meaning than that.
Pop music, even when is agressive just need to be enjoyed, there is almost nothing beyong the song and lyrics and this is not exacly bad, this can be good and sometimes very expressive.
In Modernism and Postmodernism it is possible to unite some pop aspects with some of the modern and past erudite aspects, as Postmodernism ( today´s movement ) is related to all past movements. You can notice this aspect in the work of Arrigo Barnabe and even in a pop/underground band called Laibach... in some ways, musical scores from movies and even games are a Postmodern expression.
We can find art in games ( there is a lot of art in Age of Conan ), but a game is not and will never be a piece of art, it is a product.
About the shallow or not debate, It is hard to judge games in that way, as even between a very artistic game like Syberia and an ultra popular game like Halo, the difference between deep and shallow is even less obvious than a comparison between the popular 70s movie Omega Man and the very expressive russian movie Vozvrashcheniye. When we talk about MMORPGS the only base we have to judge if it is shallow or deep ( at least today ) is just our opinion and taste, most people here is judging Age of Conan only based in the game mechanics and not for the concept of this game. The concept is not related from how many people is inside a zone, the mechanic of gameplay is, and if you think about the concept, music, art, lore and visual creation Age of Conan is a very advanced game.
We can agree there are a lot of cheap and non expressive productions in movies and music, but we cant tell the same about mmorpgs, not at least today, as the gameplay has nothing to do with shallow or deep.
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Well said.
Again, I understand what you are saying.
But many things contradict what your saying too.
Hank Williams III is a very outspoken critic of what he calls "pop country."
Some of his lyrics: "Cos if you know what I'm thinking, you'll know that pop country really sucks." As well as "Cos the kind of country I'm hearing now days is a bunch of fucking shit to me." And then there is traditionalist country artists like Dale Watson who sings "Thats country my ass, force feed us that shit, gettin real tired of it."
In punk you had bands like Black Flag that intentionally gave their music a very harsh sound and would mumble lyrics on purpose so as not to appeal to radio, etc. Kurt Cobain would often mumble lyrics for these same reasons (snubbing his nose at commercialism and trends).
I recently traveled from Texas to New Orleans to see Down play. Phil Anselmo had quite a lot to say about corporate rock and MTV.
I enjoy music that feels genuine. Henry Rollins of Black Flag is constantly speaking out against corporate fashion trends and corporate pop punk. In short you are ignoring these aspects of this argument because these things I'm pointing out contradict what you are saying (trying to lump all music into "popular culture").
Look at how they have commercialized the Ramones - to the point that I'm embarrassed to wear my old Ramones t-shirts now.
The Ramones are pop punk (based largly on early 60's bubble gum sound with "street" lyrics). You could even say punk was born as pop. I will admit this point.
But genuine ("real") music comes from the people, like folk, county, and yes late 70's early 80's hardcore punk. It's something the very poor kids from broken homes could relate to (real street kids, like in London at the time).
When a huge faceless corporation takes that "realness" and mass markets it to suburban kids (like me) then that is what I'm trying to express here.
This is exactly what happened to Grunge in the early 90's. It was a local Seattle scene that was exploited and mass marketed on MTV to millions of kids around the country. MTV also promoted the fashion trend of flannel shirts to the point that in Seattle at the time NO ONE would be caught dead wearing flannel.
Whar are we left with when local music in openly anti-commercial by its nature (Grunge) and yet the corporations somehow pimp it into pop music?
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
I stopped reading right here, since this makes no sense.
This makes 100% sense. AoC was designed for a console. Thus is unable to be made well on a computer because a console has limited features.I feel very sorry for you if you are unable to comprehend this.
Interesting discussion going on here about the generations. As a genx'r, i can't help but feel that society as we know it is heading head first at great speed into the sort of thing depicted in the movie "Idiocracy". If you haven't seen it, its worth a watch for that reason alone.
MMO producers are following the same trend, catering to the lowest common denominator. Just like how our TV media is gone down the toilet. Our science channels are full of motorcycle grease monkeys, for instance. WTF. Our popular shows are now those idiotic reality show affairs, which keep getting dumber and dumber.
At this rate in 2-3 generations we'll mostly be back to being apes.
QFT
I'm with this guy. The OP is nothing more than an elitist and condescending load of drivel with a disturbing touch of paranoia.
Age of Conan is helping to destroy the MMO genre? Geesh, what a drama queen. Last I checked, neither EVE nor even Ultima Online have shut down their servers. The Darkfall forums are that way.
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The main issue you are talking about is not exacly the pop thing, but how some record companies changed the music from the peope to the poeple to just a comercial product to people.
About punk ( and I admit, I enjoy a couple of post-punk bands, not exacly punk bands ), the funny thing is, the beginning of punk was an example of this kind of fabricated music and posture, but I think you agree with it.
But what I said is not contradicted, what is pop still pop , with heart and quality or without heart and quality.
Most of record companies are falling apart, and this attitude is the main reason for it.
But pop music still pop music, from metal to synthpop from rap to punk, we can agree about the low quality of some pop fabricated productions, and as far as I agree about pop ( independent or not ) can be expressive, I dont agree it has a deeper artistic value, maybe a strong emotional value.
But again, I dont think we can compare games and mmos to music or movies, as a movie a game (Age of Conan, Vanguard, Soul Reaver, Bioshock) is a production with art content, entertainment and personal value, but the mechanic, technology and gameplay are there too (some games like Tetris only has these parts), a game is a functional and efemere creation, music and movies arent.
If you enjoy art and expression, and get games like Age of Conan and Bioshock, even if you dont enjoy the gameplay, you would understand these games have value and quality... trust-me the gaming industry is much more healthy and creative than the corrupted musical industry from today.
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How is AoC destroying the MMo market? People have to want to keep playing it for it to be a success. I see an awful lot of blogs, posts, and reviews that say after a month you won't want to play this game ever again. Just look at all the people who can't believe they waisted 50 bucks on this just a week ago.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR VERY EASY TO READ POST
I actually wanted to contribute something worthwhile to this thread but I think I'd be branded as a NA egotist, as the one with the biggest ego(I found) said, for saying my opinion and being told that people think that I think that my opinion is the sole truth, etc.. Isn't that the definition of an opinion? To 'think' that you're right? Afterall it's a judgement formed in your own mind about something..
Sorry my post isn't about the game, but the person who quoted the term 'NA ego cult' rubbed me the wrong way, this person is the one who's arrogant in eyes. To use this term to accuse alot of people for being egotistic and trying to degrade them for being so, whilst being one yourself throughout the entire thread is just plain hypocritical, don't you think?
I'm not a fan of AOC, more like I'm waiting for Aion, but I hope I can mooch off one of my friend's copy of this game to try it out. hehe
In response, you have not (imo) sufficiently explained how WOW/AOC et al have "damaged" the MMO genre. Anymore than you have explained how POP music damages other types of music. Because "some" people are chasing the pop success and making "pop" versions of other genres does not take away from the original essence. Alot of rap went "gangsta" in the 90's because that was drawing in the money. that fact didnt stop groups like Arrested Development / Digable Planets/Tribe Called Quest, etc. etc. from still making great music and staying true to their own styles. The only thing gansta rap had over other forms of rap is that it was played more on the popular shows/radio. And so what?
Insofar as the games, you need to stop imposing your idea of "fun" on everyone else. Harkening back to the days of EQ1 where tremendous time sinks were the order of the day is not and never will be "fun" for some. Has it ever occured to you that instead of being ground breaking, those original games were just poorly developed or lacked the technology to do things any other way. You sound like some old biddy waxing nostoligic about days of old. Those days of old sucked, and most gamers do not want to go back to them.
AOC is FINE, WOW if FINE, EVE Online is fine, LOTRO is fine, etc. all of these games have interesting aspects to them and something for everyone. Are they part of pop culture, sure in some ways, and in others they bring forth some refreshing ideas that some people enjoy. If you dont like them, dont play them. EQ1 is still around go and resub and for the love of god please stop playing chicken little up in here. The skys not falling, anymore than AOC is helping destroy the MMO genre. You'll be saying the same thing about WAR in several months.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
FiresealMMO
Well well, I used the NA ego cult term, so I think you are talking about me...
How do you think the rest of the world see the US and NA posture?
You do realized I said it happens in South America too, right? I didnt say everyone in US and NA is lost in his ego...but yes, the cult is real.
See, an opinion is a point of view, if you think an opinion is “you are right and the rest is lesser and is wrong”, sorry, you just fell in this ego cult thing that seems to ofend you.
If you decide to express your judgement formed in your mind you will need arguments to support your judgement, if without arguments you think you are right only because it is in your mind.. well, you fell on it again.
Just curious, how I tried to degrede anyone?
My ego is the biggest here only because you just didnt understand what I said?
To be honest, I just think you are confused.
But first let me ask you a question: just what is an MMORPG to you? A game, sure. To me it is a virtual world.
When you play the old games like UO, SWG and lately Vanguard you see huge open worlds. And that is the main point.. the worlds are getting increasingly smaller.
Whats more, gameplay is increasingly linear (like a car on a rail). You are locked into a class and can not evolve as a character. There is almost no interdependency. And this has nothing to do with skill based vs. level based.
In short, the games are now less like virtual worlds and more like arcade action games with small 'play areas' for the "world."
As far as how pop music is destroying other types of music.
First let clear up the term pop music. In the late 1950's "pop music" became a genre of music. In the 70's and especially the 80's pop music was defined by bands like Madonna and Michael Jackson. It is no longer a term to define any song under 5 minutes that consists of certain elements or structure.
If you need an example take country music. Todays pop country snubs it's nose at tradition (this is the key point). Go listen to Tim Mcgraw sing Indian Outlaw and then go listen to Johnny Cash sing Country Boy.
Mcgraw's song was not written by him (the lyrics or the music) and features whats called "pop hooks" and computerized sound effects. Further his image is very "Hollywood," his shows are full of fog effects and special effect (pyrotechnics).
On the other hand, Johnny Cash wrote his song about something he has experienced, being poor and fishing as a small boy so he can eat. Further, it's just the man and his guitar.
So Mcgraw's song lyrics is idiotic fluff with a sound that has no roots and sounds like something Madonnas might feel at home with. Nashville has been taken over completely by Hollywood and is destroying the heart and soul of country music by turinging it into mindless fluff.
If you can't see how this is dumbing down people then I can't help you.
I could make an example of this about almost any style of music.
And I used music as an example of dumbing down entertainment, never said it's the same exact thing as electronic games (which should have been obvious).
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
How come the game who advertised MASSIVE EPIC SIEGE WARFARE in the media for 5 years can launch the game without sieges, battlekeeps or tier 2+3 player cities. All the content people really want is not there.
And the ressources and crafting is a joke. The ressources never flip around. Always based the same place. And the player cities are located in instances NO ONE ever need to visit. There is no incentive to go to your player city and neither will other players see it, because you like occupy instance X for example.. The guild I am in is in instance FIVE of Poitain...
So yes... the MMO GENRE IS DYING indeed...
Here's to hoping some game comes along and saves us all...
this got me thinking should i just send my game back .
How come the game who advertised MASSIVE EPIC SIEGE WARFARE in the media for 5 years can launch the game without sieges, battlekeeps or tier 2+3 player cities. All the content people really want is not there.
all this should of been ready to go have we been ripped off we just paying to get the rest of the game out is it right that they can
At some point life will catch up with you and you will realise that all these are entertaining avenues, not some sort of cult with rules and regulations to uphold. People don't care about semantics, they care about fun. Fun factor is all that matters and fun factor will dictate whether this game will make it past the initial month.
I'm getting flashbacks here from the time where people were moaning about Diablo not being a true RPG and destroying the gender. Give it a couple of years and it'll become a non-argument as well.