Isn't SOE's station exchange illegal in few states because it violates gambling laws? This isnt a first for SOE. I imagine they get around those laws(for now) because they give away free packs every month. No idea though..Im pretty clueless about the law here...obviously.
Looking at how the swg card game differs from the eq's...you get an idea of what SOE thinks of the swg playerbase. I'd never thought I'd see something like this in SWG. I think the people who used to play would have never accepted it. Glad I was gone when they stuck a card game in SWG..my friends would have laughed their asses off at me for playing a mmo with a card game implemented this way.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I think the game is a great idea and tbh it's no different from buying a normal trading card game but this time getting cards which you can use in the game which is a big incentive. I don't see the problem with it myself and didn't they do the same to EQ2? It wasn't the end of the world there and people seemed to like it.
It's funny cause when Blizzard does something like the buddy program where you get that Zebra mount for getting people into the game it's fine but when SOE does it with the Light Bending Barc Speeder (which looks like shit btw) then everyone throws a fit over it......... yet I still see them in the game. The only people complaining about them are the ones who make 4 trial accounts and sub them all up to get the item lol.
To me it's like the new Master Cloaks..... It looks ugly so I don't want it.
Wow......That has to be the best best post I've seen on this issue ...also has to be the longest post I've ever seen but hey, yes what SOE are doing is dumbing down a form of gambling to appeal to a much wider audience and that audience would be anyone under the legal age to take part in any form of gambling no matter what State, country , province or kindergarten they come from.
I just stole this and posted it in the TCG forums.
Thanks OP for the hard work.
Wow...I'm flatered. Feel free to post any follow ups I have posted in this thread that may apply in the thread on TCG forums.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
SoE's farms cash in a much more hideous manner than the TCG: charging its remaining players a transfer fee of $50 to play on a populated server is a total abomination. Occasionally whispering things for a year+ such as "we're working on a fix to the problem" but not releasing any details, just dangling carrots at the few fans left who are lonely on one of the 21 redundant servers SoE recommended to them. Between the TCG and this highway robbery, I'd say they're doing quite well and they could care less if it all does seem as shady as it is.
If you are into the loot cards, a dedicated player (more than 2 accounts here) you can't trade card between accounts if they came from your 5 free booster packs each month. They are No Trade at the TCG level. Only purchased booster loot cards are tradable at the TCG level. Once claimed in the SWG game world on a given account the loot card item then becomes No Trade at that level. This really burns a player that has no traders on an account and gets the 2 new vendors (Jawa or Gungan) in thier 5 monthly packs.
I understand the use of No Trade in SWG NGE but there should be some revisions on this. BTW, this has not happen to me. Its an example of what could happen.
I think the game is a great idea and tbh it's no different from buying a normal trading card game but this time getting cards which you can use in the game which is a big incentive. I don't see the problem with it myself and didn't they do the same to EQ2? It wasn't the end of the world there and people seemed to like it. It's funny cause when Blizzard does something like the buddy program where you get that Zebra mount for getting people into the game it's fine but when SOE does it with the Light Bending Barc Speeder (which looks like shit btw) then everyone throws a fit over it......... yet I still see them in the game. The only people complaining about them are the ones who make 4 trial accounts and sub them all up to get the item lol. To me it's like the new Master Cloaks..... It looks ugly so I don't want it.
You seem to be enjoying SWG, and really, I'm glad you are able to. Too much bad history for me I'm afraid. You should be aware, however, that the card game in EQ2 is different from the one in SWG. I'm told by an EQ2 player that that card game does not have gambling for loot that affects ingame combat abilities. This post is about that specfic aspect of the card game.
Oh, and also, vehicle crafting and the player economy in SWG are not the same as WoW. You're comparing two different systems here. Also, if you get a mount as a reward for getting a buddy to try WoW, this is not at all the same as gambling real cash for a chance to get a new vehicle. Hopefully these differences are clear enough. They're quite significant I think.
You seem to be enjoying SWG, and really, I'm glad you are able to. Too much bad history for me I'm afraid. You should be aware, however, that the card game in EQ2 is different from the one in SWG. I'm told by an EQ2 player that that card game does not have gambling for loot that affects ingame combat abilities. This post is about that specfic aspect of the card game.
EQ2 most certainly does have items that affect in game abilites, albeit not by much, same as SWG. XP boosts, free fal cloaks, pets that give small health bonuses are part of EQ2 loot cards.
WoW card games also have loot cards for online game play. Most are cosmetic, but folks are willing to pay plenty for the opportunity to get those in game features.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
It is only gambling if you're hoping to get a certain card within a pack.
Personally, I trade un-opened booster packs to get the certain card I want, thus eliminating any hint of "chance".
Also, its no different than buying a pack of baseball cards (or magic cards) and hoping to get that certain, rare, card you're looking for.
Therefore, its not gambling.
**Returned SWG Player** Yeah, I used to hate the game because of NGE as much as anyone, but I've been playing the game since Feb. 2008 and have honestly had a good time. If you hate the game, fantastic, move along. Its all been said before and your continuous griefing just makes you look like a sad individual with nothing better to do.
It is only gambling if you're hoping to get a certain card within a pack. Even if you don't do this yourself, do you believe others may. If so, by your statement it is gambling Personally, I trade un-opened booster packs to get the certain card I want, thus eliminating any hint of "chance". Very smart. But does the guy you trade too participate in chance when he opens what you traded to him. Also, its no different than buying a pack of baseball cards (or magic cards) and hoping to get that certain, rare, card you're looking for. I can't vouch for magic cards but baseball cards are subscribing to the points I've made about posting odds (sort of). The don't post direct payouts as obvious as a sweepstakes or casino gambling does, but they give the exact quantity of cards that exist in a case. Plus the total amount of cards that exist in a series. Plus tell what quanity of any random cards there are to pick from and how many are introduced to a series box/case. The following is for TOPPS series #1 2008. They have many more and they all have product info and a checklist giving total amounts. Something SOE does not do. http://www.topps.com/product/ProductChecklist.aspx?sportsid=0&Product_Id=1255 http://www.topps.com/Sellsheet/ProductSellSheet.aspx?sportsid=0&Product_Id=1255&ReleaseNo=196 Yes, it is true this has been accepted for years. I bought baseball cards as a child on a random chance I would get Reggee Jackson from when he was with The Angels. I recognised it as gambling then because I had to choose spending the little money I had on trying to win Reggee or play Donkey Kong; a sure thing. The difference here is baseball card companies give you all the information needed to decide if it is worth it to buy. And their stats don't change once a case(s) are printed. SWG/TCG has no tables, not amounts of a specific card that can be placed in a case. Since it is digital it can be changed at any time without notice. Also you can't place a baseball card into your PC and boost your toons batting average in a baseball MMO. There is no third party purpose to baseball cards. All the trading is done within the baseball card system unlike the SWG/TCG. There is no reason to buy packs other than baseball cards are traded within their system. Therefore, its not gambling.
I respect your opinion and I do understand your point. My point of the article isn't what you or I consider gambling. It matters what an irrate parent thinks, whom they complain to thinks, what a judge thinks, what a jury thinks, etc... A reasonable person may say it's a no brainer, and I agree. But if this is a system that people enjoy I suggest they write SOE, Blizzard, etc... and let them know you see a plausible and possible problem with its future. If you think it can't happen please reread the examples I posted in the main article. Ask for odds, close ended stats, and third party regulation to keep the digital numbers from changing without public notice. If they do change without public notice, refunds of purchased booster packs should be given for prevention.
For the record again. Gambling is not an evil word. Most everything we do is gambling from investing in the stock market all the way to walking down a traffic congested street. There is nothing wrong with gambling. It just needs to have the risks be made clear and available, oversight, and accountability by all parties involved. Not just one side. Why else are companies screaming they need a $700Bil bailout by tax payers in America. A bailout a small business owner won't get BTW. They gambled without knowing risks, oversight, or accountability. Sure they were having fun in the short term, but the long term is catching up.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm on your side. I think it is a shady system. I'm just saying that you don't have to play. If you do, there's smart ways to work the system.
If you're a parent, you should be in the loop about your child's life and the games they're playing. Until the kid is 18, they're the parents' responsibility. If Mom is mad because little Timmy wasted his money on the TCG, well, that's Mom's fault for not knowing more about how Timmy is spending his time.
If it were legally defined as gambling, then it would be a gaming comission with ovresight on the matter, which, there's not.
Feel free to share your well researched argument with them though!
**Returned SWG Player** Yeah, I used to hate the game because of NGE as much as anyone, but I've been playing the game since Feb. 2008 and have honestly had a good time. If you hate the game, fantastic, move along. Its all been said before and your continuous griefing just makes you look like a sad individual with nothing better to do.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm on your side. I think it is a shady system. I'm just saying that you don't have to play. If you do, there's smart ways to work the system. If you're a parent, you should be in the loop about your child's life and the games they're playing. Until the kid is 18, they're the parents' responsibility. If Mom is mad because little Timmy wasted his money on the TCG, well, that's Mom's fault for not knowing more about how Timmy is spending his time. If it were legally defined as gambling, then it would be a gaming comission with ovresight on the matter, which, there's not. Feel free to share your well researched argument with them though!
First off thank you for the response. I appreciate the research comment. None of below is targeted at you. You just happened to bring up a good point for discussion.
Real quick I would like to point out something about gaming commisions. At one point in time Las Vegas had no gaming commision while gambling was legal. The NGC was created because of abuses after they happened. It was founded in 1959 according to Wiki (I know, I know...it was fast and easy). The control board was in 1955. The last link shows a history time line of Las Vegas. In 1910 Nevada banned gambling. In 1931 Nevada legalized it. It took over two decades before anything was done to officially regulate gambling in Nevada. This back before the information age we are in now. Bad news travels fast and stops even harder when it hits. Just ask Brittney Spears. If the right/wrong people see MMO/TCGs as problem and acts, many invested people are going to be upset. Especially if it could be prevented. This mentality of prevention saved the game industry from being mandated by the gov. They took it upon themselves to put labels on game boxes describing content and gave ratings.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
You seem to be enjoying SWG, and really, I'm glad you are able to. Too much bad history for me I'm afraid. You should be aware, however, that the card game in EQ2 is different from the one in SWG. I'm told by an EQ2 player that that card game does not have gambling for loot that affects ingame combat abilities. This post is about that specfic aspect of the card game.
EQ2 most certainly does have items that affect in game abilites, albeit not by much, same as SWG. XP boosts, free fal cloaks, pets that give small health bonuses are part of EQ2 loot cards.
WoW card games also have loot cards for online game play. Most are cosmetic, but folks are willing to pay plenty for the opportunity to get those in game features.
Well I suppose that opens the question on the EQ2 card game. I've now heard that some do affect gameplay, and I've heard that they don't. Tbh, I don't know which report is accurate. I researched the SWG cards because of my long history with the game. I don't have any history with EQ2, so I'm content with a small mystery.
I will say, however, that any system that has you gamble real cash for the chance of an ingame reward should be treated in the same way.
I do also want to make a distinction between loot that affects gameplay and loot that does not. There is an added pull to go after the gameplay enhancing loot. I'd already be paying to use a game and avatar, and I would want my ingame avatar to have every advantage possible to remain competitive. The idea is that I'm paying to play a game, but now my avatar is at a disadvantage if I don't have the enhancing loot, which I'm now invited to gamble for. I think SOE understands this distinction, and hopes to cash in on it.
I also see a difference between real card games, which I play, and the loot cards here. In the real card games, I know I'm going to get something of value for the card game I play everytime I buy a pack. I'm not hoping to get something of value that affects another activity I'm involved in, and paying for, and hoping to be competitive in.
I've already mentioned that in the card game (rl), I also own the cards that I purchase. This is not the case in SWG. Furthermore the rules of the rl card games I play don't change, ever, so the value of certain cards remains fairly stable. Again, not so with the SWG card game. The next time they change the rules of the game (next patch probably) the relative value of loot cards may also change.
All of these issues highlight important differences between rl trading card games and what SOE is doing here. If I may be blunt, once again SOE has all the power, all the cash, and the customer can be left with nothing but a visa bill and "jack shit." Tbh, that doesn't seem like a good arrangement.
Well I suppose that opens the question on the EQ2 card game. I've now heard that some do affect gameplay, and I've heard that they don't. Tbh, I don't know which report is accurate. I researched the SWG cards because of my long history with the game. I don't have any history with EQ2, so I'm content with a small mystery. I also see a difference between real card games, which I play, and the loot cards here. In the real card games, I know I'm going to get something of value for the card game I play everytime I buy a pack. I'm not hoping to get something of value that affects another activity I'm involved in, and paying for, and hoping to be competitive in.
And here is where I end this discussion.
For all the ranting, complaining, accusations etc you have levied on SOE I find it laughable that you have not taken less than 5 minutes to go out to the card game site and researched this for yourself. If you did you would notice the EQ2 and the SWG TCG are the same thing.
As far as the RL card games, I guess the fact that Maggic, Pokemon and the other TCGs with their rare/unique cards that provide an advantage over others in competitions (Sometimes for RL money in tournaments) doesn't count?
No, it must be just SOE that is somehow only creating a "gambling game". I understand your dislike of SOE, but to put the blinders up of every other TCG and their practices, real life or online, is absurd. SOE has done nothing unique here, they've simply jumped on the TCG train.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
For those saying people can get by with the free cards, from the gameplay forums:
"I agree very few people wanted a trading card game inside SW:G. From the 20 mins I put into learning to play it I can't see away that someone with the starting packs can even play I used to deck builder helper and it turned out i didn't have enough different cards to complete a deck. So all that time waisted building a game inside a game that you can't play unless you go and buy additional decks."
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
Well I suppose that opens the question on the EQ2 card game. I've now heard that some do affect gameplay, and I've heard that they don't. Tbh, I don't know which report is accurate. I researched the SWG cards because of my long history with the game. I don't have any history with EQ2, so I'm content with a small mystery. I also see a difference between real card games, which I play, and the loot cards here. In the real card games, I know I'm going to get something of value for the card game I play everytime I buy a pack. I'm not hoping to get something of value that affects another activity I'm involved in, and paying for, and hoping to be competitive in.
And here is where I end this discussion.
For all the ranting, complaining, accusations etc you have levied on SOE I find it laughable that you have not taken less than 5 minutes to go out to the card game site and researched this for yourself. If you did you would notice the EQ2 and the SWG TCG are the same thing.
As far as the RL card games, I guess the fact that Maggic, Pokemon and the other TCGs with their rare/unique cards that provide an advantage over others in competitions (Sometimes for RL money in tournaments) doesn't count?
No, it must be just SOE that is somehow only creating a "gambling game". I understand your dislike of SOE, but to put the blinders up of every other TCG and their practices, real life or online, is absurd. SOE has done nothing unique here, they've simply jumped on the TCG train.
I should point out that the 2 products you're using as examples are both SoE titles.
Well I suppose that opens the question on the EQ2 card game. I've now heard that some do affect gameplay, and I've heard that they don't. Tbh, I don't know which report is accurate. I researched the SWG cards because of my long history with the game. I don't have any history with EQ2, so I'm content with a small mystery. I also see a difference between real card games, which I play, and the loot cards here. In the real card games, I know I'm going to get something of value for the card game I play everytime I buy a pack. I'm not hoping to get something of value that affects another activity I'm involved in, and paying for, and hoping to be competitive in.
And here is where I end this discussion.
For all the ranting, complaining, accusations etc you have levied on SOE I find it laughable that you have not taken less than 5 minutes to go out to the card game site and researched this for yourself. If you did you would notice the EQ2 and the SWG TCG are the same thing.
As far as the RL card games, I guess the fact that Maggic, Pokemon and the other TCGs with their rare/unique cards that provide an advantage over others in competitions (Sometimes for RL money in tournaments) doesn't count?
No, it must be just SOE that is somehow only creating a "gambling game". I understand your dislike of SOE, but to put the blinders up of every other TCG and their practices, real life or online, is absurd. SOE has done nothing unique here, they've simply jumped on the TCG train.
Here's my small mystery Baron, and actually no blinders are involved. I had a very long dialogue with a poster that goes by Teddyboy420 about the LoN card game. He gave me a lot of detail about the mechanics of the game. One point that stood out to me especially was this one: , "I just went back and checked and I was wrong, and there are NO items that give direct stat bonuses like constitution, strength, etc,"
This poster was very passionate in his defense of LoN, and seemed very knowledgable. Now you tell me that the LoN card game and the SWG card game are the same. According to Teddyboy, they most definitely are not. Both of you are posting in defense of SOE card games, and each of you is contradicting the other. I'm simply acknowledging that I don't know which of you is correct, though Teddyboy was very thorough in his explanation.
As for why I would notice when SOE implements a new system that has potential ethical problems in SWG, well honestly you must know why that would get my attention. First of all, this is the game I played for around 2 years. Second the game has a horrifying history of ethical problems. So of course when they seem to be hiding a gambling mechanic in a TCG, I'm going to notice that. Blizzard on the other hand, never ripped me off, and I've never played either of the Everquest games. I don't think your accusation of putting on blinders fits the reality of the situation. Tbh it just seems that you want to try to invalidate my point of view. SOE has made a policy it would seem of attempting to invalidate the accurate feedback of their current and former players. Honestly, it doesn't seem to be working for them. It really just adds insult to injury.
I think it's quite reasonable for me to notice this in SWG, and Teddyboy appears to highlight an important difference between the LoN card game and the one in SWG. He also eventually expressed concern over other differences between the card games in the thread entitled "SOE banking on gambling addiction?" if you want to have a look.
Is buying a pokemon booster pack considered gambling? Yes but not in legal terms, while you are "taking a gamble on the outcome" There is (Only money being delt) And in otherwords you have 0 chance of "winning real money directly" I am sorry but it is not gambling, but no different than paying a dime to put you're hand in a grab bag and get a random object. You are all idiots for thinking this is should be illegal as gambling. As long as the chances you are taking is on something virtual and not "Real" Or not "Real money" Its not gambling, ss virtual space does not apply to the same laws of physics yet. Also to further back that it is not gambling, The idea of the "risk" you are taking is very specific, to a targeted genre/area of items. Now on the other hand, if you where putting this money down to say, win a random object such as bycicle in real life. It would be considered gambling. You're money once spent for you're subscription has been delt, any further purchases made are subsequently up to the purchasee of (Age) And will be "Making no real value" as a guarentee. Sure you may be able to sell items you get from these cards on 3rd party sites, but that is completely "human driven". If it is not reconized by law that the items you acheive ingame can be sold to 3rd party for real cash, and as long as the items are "less valuable than purchasee price upon receiving" It cannot be considered gambling. And with the chances that it does make it to could, it would be shot down as a waste of time.
Why havn't you guys been bitching over there about gambling?
I think the answer to this question actually appears directly above your post. I was answering Baron though, so maybe you skipped over it.
Since I played SWG for two years and have friends who still play it, I pay attention to what happens with the game. Not so with WoW. I also don't have an interest in the development of the dozens of other games listed on this site. I think that really just makes sense.
Why did this happen to get my attention (and others obviously)? Well, first because I played the game for so long, and second because SOE has this track record of giving players the dirty end of the stick. The posts that outline this are too numerous to reference. People have been misled and ripped off time after time in this game by this company.
I won't give you the entire list (talk about wall of text), but I will give you one example: people are told that profession revamps are coming to 3 specific professions. In light of this information, they pay for additional subscription time. While these revamps are being promised, the NGE is being developed and will in fact delete all of professions that were supposed to get the revamp. All the professions were then in fact deleted, and people paid for something that was marketted to them, but got nothing. Like I said though, this is just one of many examples of this type of behaviour. I could (but won't) go into detail about similar issues with the jedi system, force ranking, smugglers, incomplete quests, and promised new loot and pets that were rendered worthless less than two weeks after purchase.
When a company has a history like this, and they implement a new game system that has questionable ethics, people are going to notice, especially those who have a connection with the game. This isn't rocket science, it's just reality.
So the short answer to your question is, people who played this game tend to follow this game, not others--of course--and when you have a history of giving players the shaft, people are more wary of you--for good reason. If you do something that seems off kilter, people are going to notice right away. Again, this isn't rocket science, it's reality.
So what seems off kilter about the loot cards? Well paying RMT cash for things that give you a combat advantage already looks like a cash grab. You're already paying a subscription fee, and now you have to pay extra for a competitive edge. SOE went even further than this though. You don't pay and actually get a competitive edge, you may in fact get nothing that helps you ingame at all. You need to pay real cash and gamble for just a chance to get this advantage. The O-boards already have threads where people talk about dropping hundreds or even a thousand dollars hoping to get something, and ending up with squat. This is in every sense of the word a gamble with rl cash for a chance outcome, and some people are losing big time while SOE rakes in the money, for nothing.
If that isn't off kilter enough, consider that SOE defenders (one regular in particular) have been posting on these boards saying that the loot cards do not affect gameplay or combat at all. This is just a lie, plain and simple. They do alter gameplay (two of them), and combat related attributes specifically. Add to that the denial by some that gambling takes place and you have another layer of deception. Add to that the issue that minors have access to this, and that the odds are not regulated by any third party (as they are in other gambling services) and you now have a problem just waiting to happen.
I'm sure some SOE defenders will continue to say this isn't gambling. Fine, you can say that; I just don't believe you. I wouldn't be surprised if one SOE defender continues to lie and say that the loot cards don't affect gameplay. Fine, I don't believe that either, because I can read. Others will say that my comments about SWG are invalid because I don't make similar comments about other games. That's okay, you can believe that too if you like, but I'm not about to go and read up on all of the other online TCG's available just to earn an audience with people who seem bent on invalidating my point of view. I learned a lot about LoN from a helpful poster named Teddyboy, and really didn't feel compelled to reread the same material twice. I still don't, and I think it's absurd to expect that I or anyone else would do that. I'm sure some people won't like what I have to say, and will choose to disregard my comments. That's fine, that's anyone's perogative.
To others though, I'll continue to say regarding SWG and SOE, buyer beware; they have a history of developing things that they think will benefit them financially even if it means screwing over their entire playerbase in the process.
The OP's message is much more SOE friendly though I must say. He's just encouraging SOE to put a few things in place to prevent a disaster. I suppose you can disregard him too, again that's anyone's perogative. If this happens to lead to another consumer relations disaster though, SOE won't be able to say they weren't warned.
Is buying a pokemon booster pack considered gambling? Yes but not in legal terms, while you are "taking a gamble on the outcome" There is (Only money being delt) And in otherwords you have 0 chance of "winning real money directly" I am sorry but it is not gambling, but no different than paying a dime to put you're hand in a grab bag and get a random object. You are all idiots for thinking this is should be illegal as gambling. As long as the chances you are taking is on something virtual and not "Real" Or not "Real money" Its not gambling, ss virtual space does not apply to the same laws of physics yet. Also to further back that it is not gambling, The idea of the "risk" you are taking is very specific, to a targeted genre/area of items. Now on the other hand, if you where putting this money down to say, win a random object such as bycicle in real life. It would be considered gambling. You're money once spent for you're subscription has been delt, any further purchases made are subsequently up to the purchasee of (Age) And will be "Making no real value" as a guarentee. Sure you may be able to sell items you get from these cards on 3rd party sites, but that is completely "human driven". If it is not reconized by law that the items you acheive ingame can be sold to 3rd party for real cash, and as long as the items are "less valuable than purchasee price upon receiving" It cannot be considered gambling. And with the chances that it does make it to could, it would be shot down as a waste of time.
All you appear to be highlighting is that SOE is exploiting the fact that MMO gamers have no ownership rights over virtual property. I agree with you, they are exploiting this.
I also think they exploited ambiguity about EULAs to avoid criminal prosecution for bait and switch with the NGE. SOE seems to be very skilled at finding loopholes in current consumer protection legislation to benefit themselves and hurt their customers. If they're good at one thing in the MMO industry, this is it, and they are developing a reputation for it (note the ongoing subcription problems in SWG due to a lack of consumer confidence among other things).
I also think I can make my case with out calling you names. Maybe you could try to show a similar level of respect in the future.
Also you can expect legislation related to virtual property within the next five years to close some of the loopholes that are currently exploited. Other things are taking priority at the moment. Meanwhile, please pay attention to case law, as courts find ways to use current legislation to try to crack down on the unethical practice of some service providers. In fact Sony was partially responsible for new legislation aimed at eliminating dishonest word of mouth marketting. Yes, they are developing quite a reputation aren't they.
SWG, sure not as good or with as much potential as it used to and be angry at SOE and LA about that. However loot cards and a TCG just adds to the game and you don't have to buy them if you don't want too, they also give you a free starter pack with your subscription to play which they don't have to do seeing as WOW doesn't do it.
SOE gives MUCH MUCH more to their players and they have a much better Customer Service than other mmorpgs like WOW with a patcher that uses their servers. They also give you 30 days free like a few times a year which they don't have to do but they do it to draw you back into the game and again they could try to draw you back into the game some other way so its really good of them to let you play for free all the time. However there is just one thing SOE isn't doing right now and thats giving what the players want in the game.
I accept the ship has sailed for Planetside and EQ, I really wsih they made a browser based game service and put them on there however which would draw more players into them games with the proper advertising. EQ2 they're doing the best with and turned it around since launch but tbh.... the game just doesn't draw players into it because its rather bland so SOE need to come up with something to get WOW players trying out EQ2 again. MxO, Vanguard and PotBS are just crap games with no potential and SOE bought these guys and gave them a chance, so right now they're just supporting these games.
However the one they can still do good things with is SWG but merging all the light servers together into 1 or 2 and then making two classic servers, one with the CU and one with PRe CU. They wont do this however because of Lucas Arts.
Why havn't you guys been bitching over there about gambling?
I have mentioned Blizzard in follow up post(s) in this thread I have started. Post #36 is an example. I focus on SOE because I don't play WoW and used to play SWG. I do play EVE and if CCP brings in a MMO/TCG that operates the exact same way as this one with no odds etc... I would be over there "bitching" as well.
Again I don't have a problem with the TCG itself, just the way it is operating. The main post wasn't written to call SOE evil and SWG sucks. I didn't need to write a novel to do that. I wrote that to point out to SOE and players who like this system there could be some major legal problems based on the way it is operating. Many people said it is legal because they are doing it or the EULA says it's cool. Many things become illegal even if it was allowed or rather overlooked for a while. Contracts and allowed behavior are only legal til tested. Many things implemented better have failed that test. Just because they are doing it this way now doesn't mean they are protected from any actions or pitfalls I've exampled in this thread.
Cheers
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
Here is a list of the current Loot Cards for the SWG TCG:
Black Corset Dress
Bodyguard Jacket
Count Dooku bust
Glass Display Case
Gorax Ear *
Great Hyperspace War Bas-Relief
Guise of the Apprentice
Guise of the Sith
Gungan Vendor
Housecleaning Kit
Large Indoor Fountain
Jawa Vendor
Meatlump Greeter
Mechno-chair
Muur Talisman *
Nuna-Ball Advertisement +
Ord Pedrovia podracer
Painting: Jedi Crest
Painting: Trooper
Radtrooper Insignia +
Sith Speeder
XJ-2 airspeeder
Target Creature
Rebel Life Support Flight Suit
Imperial Life Support Flight Suit
Han's Hydrospanner +
Ewok Vendor
Those marked with * provide a buff, I believe.
Those marked with + provide +10% xp buff for an hour or If your CL90, a random Collection item.
To make it clear, yes, some cards mod stats if you include buffs. Clothes do not have any mods(such as the Bodyguard Jacket). The Ord Pedrovia podracer is currenty the fastest and largest vehical in game. Oh, and the Meatlump greater actually talks in game.
At the end of October, we should be getting an expansion to this set. The random distrubution is like if you bought gum cards or other real life CCGs or TCGs.
What do I think of the whole gambling end of this? I knew it was coming 2 years ago when SOE bought that online card developer. Now its here. As long as true monitary wagering is not involved in PLAYING the game then its is much like playing UNO or Magic. Is buying a deck of cards gambling or is playing the deck of cards gambling? Its a matter of your choices.
Here is a list of the current Loot Cards for the SWG TCG: Black Corset Dress
Bodyguard Jacket
Count Dooku bust
Glass Display Case
Gorax Ear *
Great Hyperspace War Bas-Relief
Guise of the Apprentice
Guise of the Sith
Gungan Vendor
Housecleaning Kit
Large Indoor Fountain
Jawa Vendor
Meatlump Greeter
Mechno-chair
Muur Talisman *
Nuna-Ball Advertisement +
Ord Pedrovia podracer
Painting: Jedi Crest
Painting: Trooper
Radtrooper Insignia +
Sith Speeder
XJ-2 airspeeder
Target Creature
Rebel Life Support Flight Suit
Imperial Life Support Flight Suit
Han's Hydrospanner +
Ewok Vendor
Those marked with * provide a buff, I believe. Those marked with + provide +10% xp buff for an hour or If your CL90, a random Collection item. To make it clear, yes, some cards mod stats if you include buffs. Clothes do not have any mods(such as the Bodyguard Jacket). The Ord Pedrovia podracer is currenty the fastest and largest vehical in game. Oh, and the Meatlump greater actually talks in game. At the end of October, we should be getting an expansion to this set. The random distrubution is like if you bought gum cards or other real life CCGs or TCGs. What do I think of the whole gambling end of this? I knew it was coming 2 years ago when SOE bought that online card developer. Now its here. As long as true monitary wagering is not involved in PLAYING the game then its is much like playing UNO or Magic. Is buying a deck of cards gambling or is playing the deck of cards gambling? Its a matter of your choices.
Heya Jess, thanks for posting the cards and which ones have buffs etc.. That should make things more clear for everyone who takes an interest in this. Yes, according to the game site, those with the * do offer ingame buffs to combat attributes.
At the risk of embarassing you, I want to highlight that here is a current player of the game that provides honest information about it. He also highlights positive developments in the game, and offers to help new and returning players learn the ropes (again and again if needed, when game mechanics change). This guy is truly a class act. Of course we don't see everything exactly the same way, we're human beings, but I trust Jess 100% to be honest, respectful and helpful. This is the kind of thing that made the SWG community so great. I know other current players like this, and their resilience through all this game's changes really impress me. O.k. lol I'll stop now Sorry Jess 0_o.
As for the loot cards being like other card games. I think in most ways this is true. I see a small but important difference though, o.k., maybe a few.
First of all, other card games provide cards for that game alone, not perks for some other activity. Why is that significant? Well because people are already paying a fee for the other activity, in this case SWG. They are paying this fee, and hope to be competitive in this online game. The card game, however, introduces a factor that impacts their competitiveness in the other activity. Now, in order to be the best you can be, you're enticed to play the odds in the card game, hoping to get the temporary buff card.
The other card games we're talking about (magic etc.) don't hide within them a combat bonus for another service or activity that people are paying for. This is a small, but significant difference. This difference in fact contains what you might call the lure, or hook to play the odds.
The podracer is another example of such a hook. I didn't know that it was the fastest vehicle in SWG, but that just makes sense. It further convinces me that SOE knows exactly what they are doing with this card game, and that players are being intentionally manipulated to play the odds. Getting the podracer now gives SWG players an ingame advantage via vehicle speed.
Paying money with the hope of getting the SWG podracer seems to have little if anything to do with the actual TCG. No, this appears to be an SWG perk hidden within the TCG that you have to gamble to get. If I understand correctly, this fastest vehicle is not available in game, but only via the cards. This then is a more blatant example than the buff cards of SOE pushing their loot lottery RMT model. I don't know if things are still the same ingame with bounty hunting, but having the fastest speeder in game would certainly be an advantage if you're trying to get away from one.
The other thing with regular TCGs, is that players actually of course own the cards. You always get something of value for the card game itself that you own and can trade with other players. If you're playing the odds to get a loot card, you may in fact get nothing of value for SWG. Even if you do get the loot card, you don't actually own it according to SWG terms of use.
Also with game like magic and the StarWars TCG I play (it's fun btw ^_^), the rules of the game don't change. If I get a card with certain properties, those properties aren't going to change out of the blue at any moment and devalue my card. SOE has this unfortunate habit of changing their rules more times than I can remember, in very significant ways. There is a very real possibility that people will gamble 50 bucks, get a loot card that boosts constitution, and then have constitution changed in the game so as to become irrelevant. This is a lot like the lure to buy ToOW because of all the combat enhancing loot. I remember hearing about an armour break crystal bonus for example. I was a TKM and loved my armour break skill. I wanted the crystal, and this was one of the many reasons I wanted to buy the expansion--for the advertised loot. Well, as we all know, two weeks after the expansion went live, and maybe a few days after I got the crystal, armour break as a skill, and my entire profession were removed from the game.
So, I like TCG's, but I'll stick to those where I'm not hoping to find something that benefits me in another activitiy that I'm already paying for, I'll stick to those where I actually own the physical cards, and I'll stick to those where the rules don't change repeatedly, making my financial investment null and void.
If SOE wants to run a TCG without ethical problems, it's not that difficult. Don't hide things in it that give ingame advantages to SWG subscribers. Don't encourage them to gamble for these advantages.
If they want to hide things in the TCG that give ingame advantages to SWG subscribers, o.k., then just be honest about it. Make sure that only adults are gambling their real cash for a chance to get these perks, make sure they know the odds, and have them verified by a third party. Then make sure that the rules of SWG don't change, thereby devaluing players' winnings.
If they want to offer the SWG perks as some kind of cereal box promotion, that's fine too, but run it like one according to the laws in players' jurisdictions. Here in Canada for example, I would have to get the option of buying a random card pack, or I would have the option of sending a letter and thereby having my name put in a pool from which a winner would be selected with no purchase necessary.
There are models and options for SOE to follow all over the place that do not have them manipulating, misleading or exploiting SWG subscribers. The model they have chosen unfortunately runs the risk of all of these things.
Comments
Isn't SOE's station exchange illegal in few states because it violates gambling laws? This isnt a first for SOE. I imagine they get around those laws(for now) because they give away free packs every month. No idea though..Im pretty clueless about the law here...obviously.
Looking at how the swg card game differs from the eq's...you get an idea of what SOE thinks of the swg playerbase. I'd never thought I'd see something like this in SWG. I think the people who used to play would have never accepted it. Glad I was gone when they stuck a card game in SWG..my friends would have laughed their asses off at me for playing a mmo with a card game implemented this way.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I think the game is a great idea and tbh it's no different from buying a normal trading card game but this time getting cards which you can use in the game which is a big incentive. I don't see the problem with it myself and didn't they do the same to EQ2? It wasn't the end of the world there and people seemed to like it.
It's funny cause when Blizzard does something like the buddy program where you get that Zebra mount for getting people into the game it's fine but when SOE does it with the Light Bending Barc Speeder (which looks like shit btw) then everyone throws a fit over it......... yet I still see them in the game. The only people complaining about them are the ones who make 4 trial accounts and sub them all up to get the item lol.
To me it's like the new Master Cloaks..... It looks ugly so I don't want it.
Wow......That has to be the best best post I've seen on this issue ...also has to be the longest post I've ever seen
but hey, yes what SOE are doing is dumbing down a form of gambling to appeal to a much wider audience and that audience would be anyone under the legal age to take part in any form of gambling no matter what State, country , province or kindergarten they come from.
Wow...I'm flatered. Feel free to post any follow ups I have posted in this thread that may apply in the thread on TCG forums.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
SoE's farms cash in a much more hideous manner than the TCG: charging its remaining players a transfer fee of $50 to play on a populated server is a total abomination. Occasionally whispering things for a year+ such as "we're working on a fix to the problem" but not releasing any details, just dangling carrots at the few fans left who are lonely on one of the 21 redundant servers SoE recommended to them. Between the TCG and this highway robbery, I'd say they're doing quite well and they could care less if it all does seem as shady as it is.
zirzo- CL90 imp spy, Valcyn
oxirz- CL36 imp smuggler, Bria
If you are into the loot cards, a dedicated player (more than 2 accounts here) you can't trade card between accounts if they came from your 5 free booster packs each month. They are No Trade at the TCG level. Only purchased booster loot cards are tradable at the TCG level. Once claimed in the SWG game world on a given account the loot card item then becomes No Trade at that level. This really burns a player that has no traders on an account and gets the 2 new vendors (Jawa or Gungan) in thier 5 monthly packs.
I understand the use of No Trade in SWG NGE but there should be some revisions on this. BTW, this has not happen to me. Its an example of what could happen.
You seem to be enjoying SWG, and really, I'm glad you are able to. Too much bad history for me I'm afraid. You should be aware, however, that the card game in EQ2 is different from the one in SWG. I'm told by an EQ2 player that that card game does not have gambling for loot that affects ingame combat abilities. This post is about that specfic aspect of the card game.
Oh, and also, vehicle crafting and the player economy in SWG are not the same as WoW. You're comparing two different systems here. Also, if you get a mount as a reward for getting a buddy to try WoW, this is not at all the same as gambling real cash for a chance to get a new vehicle. Hopefully these differences are clear enough. They're quite significant I think.
(Looks up and waves to JYC ^_^)
EQ2 most certainly does have items that affect in game abilites, albeit not by much, same as SWG. XP boosts, free fal cloaks, pets that give small health bonuses are part of EQ2 loot cards.
WoW card games also have loot cards for online game play. Most are cosmetic, but folks are willing to pay plenty for the opportunity to get those in game features.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
It is only gambling if you're hoping to get a certain card within a pack.
Personally, I trade un-opened booster packs to get the certain card I want, thus eliminating any hint of "chance".
Also, its no different than buying a pack of baseball cards (or magic cards) and hoping to get that certain, rare, card you're looking for.
Therefore, its not gambling.
**Returned SWG Player**
Yeah, I used to hate the game because of NGE as much as anyone, but I've been playing the game since Feb. 2008 and have honestly had a good time. If you hate the game, fantastic, move along. Its all been said before and your continuous griefing just makes you look like a sad individual with nothing better to do.
I respect your opinion and I do understand your point. My point of the article isn't what you or I consider gambling. It matters what an irrate parent thinks, whom they complain to thinks, what a judge thinks, what a jury thinks, etc... A reasonable person may say it's a no brainer, and I agree. But if this is a system that people enjoy I suggest they write SOE, Blizzard, etc... and let them know you see a plausible and possible problem with its future. If you think it can't happen please reread the examples I posted in the main article. Ask for odds, close ended stats, and third party regulation to keep the digital numbers from changing without public notice. If they do change without public notice, refunds of purchased booster packs should be given for prevention.
For the record again. Gambling is not an evil word. Most everything we do is gambling from investing in the stock market all the way to walking down a traffic congested street. There is nothing wrong with gambling. It just needs to have the risks be made clear and available, oversight, and accountability by all parties involved. Not just one side. Why else are companies screaming they need a $700Bil bailout by tax payers in America. A bailout a small business owner won't get BTW. They gambled without knowing risks, oversight, or accountability. Sure they were having fun in the short term, but the long term is catching up.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm on your side. I think it is a shady system. I'm just saying that you don't have to play. If you do, there's smart ways to work the system.
If you're a parent, you should be in the loop about your child's life and the games they're playing. Until the kid is 18, they're the parents' responsibility. If Mom is mad because little Timmy wasted his money on the TCG, well, that's Mom's fault for not knowing more about how Timmy is spending his time.
If it were legally defined as gambling, then it would be a gaming comission with ovresight on the matter, which, there's not.
Feel free to share your well researched argument with them though!
**Returned SWG Player**
Yeah, I used to hate the game because of NGE as much as anyone, but I've been playing the game since Feb. 2008 and have honestly had a good time. If you hate the game, fantastic, move along. Its all been said before and your continuous griefing just makes you look like a sad individual with nothing better to do.
First off thank you for the response. I appreciate the research comment. None of below is targeted at you. You just happened to bring up a good point for discussion.
Real quick I would like to point out something about gaming commisions. At one point in time Las Vegas had no gaming commision while gambling was legal. The NGC was created because of abuses after they happened. It was founded in 1959 according to Wiki (I know, I know...it was fast and easy). The control board was in 1955. The last link shows a history time line of Las Vegas. In 1910 Nevada banned gambling. In 1931 Nevada legalized it. It took over two decades before anything was done to officially regulate gambling in Nevada. This back before the information age we are in now. Bad news travels fast and stops even harder when it hits. Just ask Brittney Spears. If the right/wrong people see MMO/TCGs as problem and acts, many invested people are going to be upset. Especially if it could be prevented. This mentality of prevention saved the game industry from being mandated by the gov. They took it upon themselves to put labels on game boxes describing content and gave ratings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Gaming_Commission
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Gaming_Control_Board
http://www.visitlasvegas.com/vegas/features/history/index.jsp?page=1900-1989
Cheers
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
EQ2 most certainly does have items that affect in game abilites, albeit not by much, same as SWG. XP boosts, free fal cloaks, pets that give small health bonuses are part of EQ2 loot cards.
WoW card games also have loot cards for online game play. Most are cosmetic, but folks are willing to pay plenty for the opportunity to get those in game features.
Well I suppose that opens the question on the EQ2 card game. I've now heard that some do affect gameplay, and I've heard that they don't. Tbh, I don't know which report is accurate. I researched the SWG cards because of my long history with the game. I don't have any history with EQ2, so I'm content with a small mystery.
I will say, however, that any system that has you gamble real cash for the chance of an ingame reward should be treated in the same way.
I do also want to make a distinction between loot that affects gameplay and loot that does not. There is an added pull to go after the gameplay enhancing loot. I'd already be paying to use a game and avatar, and I would want my ingame avatar to have every advantage possible to remain competitive. The idea is that I'm paying to play a game, but now my avatar is at a disadvantage if I don't have the enhancing loot, which I'm now invited to gamble for. I think SOE understands this distinction, and hopes to cash in on it.
I also see a difference between real card games, which I play, and the loot cards here. In the real card games, I know I'm going to get something of value for the card game I play everytime I buy a pack. I'm not hoping to get something of value that affects another activity I'm involved in, and paying for, and hoping to be competitive in.
I've already mentioned that in the card game (rl), I also own the cards that I purchase. This is not the case in SWG. Furthermore the rules of the rl card games I play don't change, ever, so the value of certain cards remains fairly stable. Again, not so with the SWG card game. The next time they change the rules of the game (next patch probably) the relative value of loot cards may also change.
All of these issues highlight important differences between rl trading card games and what SOE is doing here. If I may be blunt, once again SOE has all the power, all the cash, and the customer can be left with nothing but a visa bill and "jack shit." Tbh, that doesn't seem like a good arrangement.
And here is where I end this discussion.
For all the ranting, complaining, accusations etc you have levied on SOE I find it laughable that you have not taken less than 5 minutes to go out to the card game site and researched this for yourself. If you did you would notice the EQ2 and the SWG TCG are the same thing.
As far as the RL card games, I guess the fact that Maggic, Pokemon and the other TCGs with their rare/unique cards that provide an advantage over others in competitions (Sometimes for RL money in tournaments) doesn't count?
No, it must be just SOE that is somehow only creating a "gambling game"
. I understand your dislike of SOE, but to put the blinders up of every other TCG and their practices, real life or online, is absurd. SOE has done nothing unique here, they've simply jumped on the TCG train.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
For those saying people can get by with the free cards, from the gameplay forums:
"I agree very few people wanted a trading card game inside SW:G. From the 20 mins I put into learning to play it I can't see away that someone with the starting packs can even play I used to deck builder helper and it turned out i didn't have enough different cards to complete a deck. So all that time waisted building a game inside a game that you can't play unless you go and buy additional decks."
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
And here is where I end this discussion.
For all the ranting, complaining, accusations etc you have levied on SOE I find it laughable that you have not taken less than 5 minutes to go out to the card game site and researched this for yourself. If you did you would notice the EQ2 and the SWG TCG are the same thing.
As far as the RL card games, I guess the fact that Maggic, Pokemon and the other TCGs with their rare/unique cards that provide an advantage over others in competitions (Sometimes for RL money in tournaments) doesn't count?
No, it must be just SOE that is somehow only creating a "gambling game"
. I understand your dislike of SOE, but to put the blinders up of every other TCG and their practices, real life or online, is absurd. SOE has done nothing unique here, they've simply jumped on the TCG train.
I should point out that the 2 products you're using as examples are both SoE titles.
And here is where I end this discussion.
For all the ranting, complaining, accusations etc you have levied on SOE I find it laughable that you have not taken less than 5 minutes to go out to the card game site and researched this for yourself. If you did you would notice the EQ2 and the SWG TCG are the same thing.
As far as the RL card games, I guess the fact that Maggic, Pokemon and the other TCGs with their rare/unique cards that provide an advantage over others in competitions (Sometimes for RL money in tournaments) doesn't count?
No, it must be just SOE that is somehow only creating a "gambling game"
. I understand your dislike of SOE, but to put the blinders up of every other TCG and their practices, real life or online, is absurd. SOE has done nothing unique here, they've simply jumped on the TCG train.
Here's my small mystery Baron, and actually no blinders are involved. I had a very long dialogue with a poster that goes by Teddyboy420 about the LoN card game. He gave me a lot of detail about the mechanics of the game. One point that stood out to me especially was this one: , "I just went back and checked and I was wrong, and there are NO items that give direct stat bonuses like constitution, strength, etc,"
This poster was very passionate in his defense of LoN, and seemed very knowledgable. Now you tell me that the LoN card game and the SWG card game are the same. According to Teddyboy, they most definitely are not. Both of you are posting in defense of SOE card games, and each of you is contradicting the other. I'm simply acknowledging that I don't know which of you is correct, though Teddyboy was very thorough in his explanation.
As for why I would notice when SOE implements a new system that has potential ethical problems in SWG, well honestly you must know why that would get my attention. First of all, this is the game I played for around 2 years. Second the game has a horrifying history of ethical problems. So of course when they seem to be hiding a gambling mechanic in a TCG, I'm going to notice that. Blizzard on the other hand, never ripped me off, and I've never played either of the Everquest games. I don't think your accusation of putting on blinders fits the reality of the situation. Tbh it just seems that you want to try to invalidate my point of view. SOE has made a policy it would seem of attempting to invalidate the accurate feedback of their current and former players. Honestly, it doesn't seem to be working for them. It really just adds insult to injury.
I think it's quite reasonable for me to notice this in SWG, and Teddyboy appears to highlight an important difference between the LoN card game and the one in SWG. He also eventually expressed concern over other differences between the card games in the thread entitled "SOE banking on gambling addiction?" if you want to have a look.
WOW has a TCG and Loot Cards.
Why havn't you guys been bitching over there about gambling?
Is buying a pokemon booster pack considered gambling? Yes but not in legal terms, while you are "taking a gamble on the outcome" There is (Only money being delt) And in otherwords you have 0 chance of "winning real money directly" I am sorry but it is not gambling, but no different than paying a dime to put you're hand in a grab bag and get a random object. You are all idiots for thinking this is should be illegal as gambling. As long as the chances you are taking is on something virtual and not "Real" Or not "Real money" Its not gambling, ss virtual space does not apply to the same laws of physics yet. Also to further back that it is not gambling, The idea of the "risk" you are taking is very specific, to a targeted genre/area of items. Now on the other hand, if you where putting this money down to say, win a random object such as bycicle in real life. It would be considered gambling. You're money once spent for you're subscription has been delt, any further purchases made are subsequently up to the purchasee of (Age) And will be "Making no real value" as a guarentee. Sure you may be able to sell items you get from these cards on 3rd party sites, but that is completely "human driven". If it is not reconized by law that the items you acheive ingame can be sold to 3rd party for real cash, and as long as the items are "less valuable than purchasee price upon receiving" It cannot be considered gambling. And with the chances that it does make it to could, it would be shot down as a waste of time.
I think the answer to this question actually appears directly above your post. I was answering Baron though, so maybe you skipped over it.
Since I played SWG for two years and have friends who still play it, I pay attention to what happens with the game. Not so with WoW. I also don't have an interest in the development of the dozens of other games listed on this site. I think that really just makes sense.
Why did this happen to get my attention (and others obviously)? Well, first because I played the game for so long, and second because SOE has this track record of giving players the dirty end of the stick. The posts that outline this are too numerous to reference. People have been misled and ripped off time after time in this game by this company.
I won't give you the entire list (talk about wall of text), but I will give you one example: people are told that profession revamps are coming to 3 specific professions. In light of this information, they pay for additional subscription time. While these revamps are being promised, the NGE is being developed and will in fact delete all of professions that were supposed to get the revamp. All the professions were then in fact deleted, and people paid for something that was marketted to them, but got nothing. Like I said though, this is just one of many examples of this type of behaviour. I could (but won't) go into detail about similar issues with the jedi system, force ranking, smugglers, incomplete quests, and promised new loot and pets that were rendered worthless less than two weeks after purchase.
When a company has a history like this, and they implement a new game system that has questionable ethics, people are going to notice, especially those who have a connection with the game. This isn't rocket science, it's just reality.
So the short answer to your question is, people who played this game tend to follow this game, not others--of course--and when you have a history of giving players the shaft, people are more wary of you--for good reason. If you do something that seems off kilter, people are going to notice right away. Again, this isn't rocket science, it's reality.
So what seems off kilter about the loot cards? Well paying RMT cash for things that give you a combat advantage already looks like a cash grab. You're already paying a subscription fee, and now you have to pay extra for a competitive edge. SOE went even further than this though. You don't pay and actually get a competitive edge, you may in fact get nothing that helps you ingame at all. You need to pay real cash and gamble for just a chance to get this advantage. The O-boards already have threads where people talk about dropping hundreds or even a thousand dollars hoping to get something, and ending up with squat. This is in every sense of the word a gamble with rl cash for a chance outcome, and some people are losing big time while SOE rakes in the money, for nothing.
If that isn't off kilter enough, consider that SOE defenders (one regular in particular) have been posting on these boards saying that the loot cards do not affect gameplay or combat at all. This is just a lie, plain and simple. They do alter gameplay (two of them), and combat related attributes specifically. Add to that the denial by some that gambling takes place and you have another layer of deception. Add to that the issue that minors have access to this, and that the odds are not regulated by any third party (as they are in other gambling services) and you now have a problem just waiting to happen.
I'm sure some SOE defenders will continue to say this isn't gambling. Fine, you can say that; I just don't believe you. I wouldn't be surprised if one SOE defender continues to lie and say that the loot cards don't affect gameplay. Fine, I don't believe that either, because I can read. Others will say that my comments about SWG are invalid because I don't make similar comments about other games. That's okay, you can believe that too if you like, but I'm not about to go and read up on all of the other online TCG's available just to earn an audience with people who seem bent on invalidating my point of view. I learned a lot about LoN from a helpful poster named Teddyboy, and really didn't feel compelled to reread the same material twice. I still don't, and I think it's absurd to expect that I or anyone else would do that. I'm sure some people won't like what I have to say, and will choose to disregard my comments. That's fine, that's anyone's perogative.
To others though, I'll continue to say regarding SWG and SOE, buyer beware; they have a history of developing things that they think will benefit them financially even if it means screwing over their entire playerbase in the process.
The OP's message is much more SOE friendly though I must say. He's just encouraging SOE to put a few things in place to prevent a disaster. I suppose you can disregard him too, again that's anyone's perogative. If this happens to lead to another consumer relations disaster though, SOE won't be able to say they weren't warned.
All you appear to be highlighting is that SOE is exploiting the fact that MMO gamers have no ownership rights over virtual property. I agree with you, they are exploiting this.
I also think they exploited ambiguity about EULAs to avoid criminal prosecution for bait and switch with the NGE. SOE seems to be very skilled at finding loopholes in current consumer protection legislation to benefit themselves and hurt their customers. If they're good at one thing in the MMO industry, this is it, and they are developing a reputation for it (note the ongoing subcription problems in SWG due to a lack of consumer confidence among other things).
I also think I can make my case with out calling you names. Maybe you could try to show a similar level of respect in the future.
Also you can expect legislation related to virtual property within the next five years to close some of the loopholes that are currently exploited. Other things are taking priority at the moment. Meanwhile, please pay attention to case law, as courts find ways to use current legislation to try to crack down on the unethical practice of some service providers. In fact Sony was partially responsible for new legislation aimed at eliminating dishonest word of mouth marketting. Yes, they are developing quite a reputation aren't they.
SWG, sure not as good or with as much potential as it used to and be angry at SOE and LA about that. However loot cards and a TCG just adds to the game and you don't have to buy them if you don't want too, they also give you a free starter pack with your subscription to play which they don't have to do seeing as WOW doesn't do it.
SOE gives MUCH MUCH more to their players and they have a much better Customer Service than other mmorpgs like WOW with a patcher that uses their servers. They also give you 30 days free like a few times a year which they don't have to do but they do it to draw you back into the game and again they could try to draw you back into the game some other way so its really good of them to let you play for free all the time. However there is just one thing SOE isn't doing right now and thats giving what the players want in the game.
I accept the ship has sailed for Planetside and EQ, I really wsih they made a browser based game service and put them on there however which would draw more players into them games with the proper advertising. EQ2 they're doing the best with and turned it around since launch but tbh.... the game just doesn't draw players into it because its rather bland so SOE need to come up with something to get WOW players trying out EQ2 again. MxO, Vanguard and PotBS are just crap games with no potential and SOE bought these guys and gave them a chance, so right now they're just supporting these games.
However the one they can still do good things with is SWG but merging all the light servers together into 1 or 2 and then making two classic servers, one with the CU and one with PRe CU. They wont do this however because of Lucas Arts.
I have mentioned Blizzard in follow up post(s) in this thread I have started. Post #36 is an example. I focus on SOE because I don't play WoW and used to play SWG. I do play EVE and if CCP brings in a MMO/TCG that operates the exact same way as this one with no odds etc... I would be over there "bitching" as well.
Again I don't have a problem with the TCG itself, just the way it is operating. The main post wasn't written to call SOE evil and SWG sucks. I didn't need to write a novel to do that. I wrote that to point out to SOE and players who like this system there could be some major legal problems based on the way it is operating. Many people said it is legal because they are doing it or the EULA says it's cool. Many things become illegal even if it was allowed or rather overlooked for a while. Contracts and allowed behavior are only legal til tested. Many things implemented better have failed that test. Just because they are doing it this way now doesn't mean they are protected from any actions or pitfalls I've exampled in this thread.
Cheers
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
Here is a list of the current Loot Cards for the SWG TCG:
Black Corset Dress
Bodyguard Jacket
Count Dooku bust
Glass Display Case
Gorax Ear *
Great Hyperspace War Bas-Relief
Guise of the Apprentice
Guise of the Sith
Gungan Vendor
Housecleaning Kit
Large Indoor Fountain
Jawa Vendor
Meatlump Greeter
Mechno-chair
Muur Talisman *
Nuna-Ball Advertisement +
Ord Pedrovia podracer
Painting: Jedi Crest
Painting: Trooper
Radtrooper Insignia +
Sith Speeder
XJ-2 airspeeder
Target Creature
Rebel Life Support Flight Suit
Imperial Life Support Flight Suit
Han's Hydrospanner +
Ewok Vendor
Those marked with * provide a buff, I believe.
Those marked with + provide +10% xp buff for an hour or If your CL90, a random Collection item.
To make it clear, yes, some cards mod stats if you include buffs. Clothes do not have any mods(such as the Bodyguard Jacket). The Ord Pedrovia podracer is currenty the fastest and largest vehical in game. Oh, and the Meatlump greater actually talks in game.
At the end of October, we should be getting an expansion to this set. The random distrubution is like if you bought gum cards or other real life CCGs or TCGs.
What do I think of the whole gambling end of this? I knew it was coming 2 years ago when SOE bought that online card developer. Now its here. As long as true monitary wagering is not involved in PLAYING the game then its is much like playing UNO or Magic. Is buying a deck of cards gambling or is playing the deck of cards gambling? Its a matter of your choices.
Heya Jess, thanks for posting the cards and which ones have buffs etc.. That should make things more clear for everyone who takes an interest in this. Yes, according to the game site, those with the * do offer ingame buffs to combat attributes.
At the risk of embarassing you, I want to highlight that here is a current player of the game that provides honest information about it. He also highlights positive developments in the game, and offers to help new and returning players learn the ropes (again and again if needed, when game mechanics change). This guy is truly a class act. Of course we don't see everything exactly the same way, we're human beings, but I trust Jess 100% to be honest, respectful and helpful. This is the kind of thing that made the SWG community so great. I know other current players like this, and their resilience through all this game's changes really impress me. O.k. lol I'll stop now
Sorry Jess 0_o.
As for the loot cards being like other card games. I think in most ways this is true. I see a small but important difference though, o.k., maybe a few.
First of all, other card games provide cards for that game alone, not perks for some other activity. Why is that significant? Well because people are already paying a fee for the other activity, in this case SWG. They are paying this fee, and hope to be competitive in this online game. The card game, however, introduces a factor that impacts their competitiveness in the other activity. Now, in order to be the best you can be, you're enticed to play the odds in the card game, hoping to get the temporary buff card.
The other card games we're talking about (magic etc.) don't hide within them a combat bonus for another service or activity that people are paying for. This is a small, but significant difference. This difference in fact contains what you might call the lure, or hook to play the odds.
The podracer is another example of such a hook. I didn't know that it was the fastest vehicle in SWG, but that just makes sense. It further convinces me that SOE knows exactly what they are doing with this card game, and that players are being intentionally manipulated to play the odds. Getting the podracer now gives SWG players an ingame advantage via vehicle speed.
Paying money with the hope of getting the SWG podracer seems to have little if anything to do with the actual TCG. No, this appears to be an SWG perk hidden within the TCG that you have to gamble to get. If I understand correctly, this fastest vehicle is not available in game, but only via the cards. This then is a more blatant example than the buff cards of SOE pushing their loot lottery RMT model. I don't know if things are still the same ingame with bounty hunting, but having the fastest speeder in game would certainly be an advantage if you're trying to get away from one.
The other thing with regular TCGs, is that players actually of course own the cards. You always get something of value for the card game itself that you own and can trade with other players. If you're playing the odds to get a loot card, you may in fact get nothing of value for SWG. Even if you do get the loot card, you don't actually own it according to SWG terms of use.
Also with game like magic and the StarWars TCG I play (it's fun btw ^_^), the rules of the game don't change. If I get a card with certain properties, those properties aren't going to change out of the blue at any moment and devalue my card. SOE has this unfortunate habit of changing their rules more times than I can remember, in very significant ways. There is a very real possibility that people will gamble 50 bucks, get a loot card that boosts constitution, and then have constitution changed in the game so as to become irrelevant. This is a lot like the lure to buy ToOW because of all the combat enhancing loot. I remember hearing about an armour break crystal bonus for example. I was a TKM and loved my armour break skill. I wanted the crystal, and this was one of the many reasons I wanted to buy the expansion--for the advertised loot. Well, as we all know, two weeks after the expansion went live, and maybe a few days after I got the crystal, armour break as a skill, and my entire profession were removed from the game.
So, I like TCG's, but I'll stick to those where I'm not hoping to find something that benefits me in another activitiy that I'm already paying for, I'll stick to those where I actually own the physical cards, and I'll stick to those where the rules don't change repeatedly, making my financial investment null and void.
If SOE wants to run a TCG without ethical problems, it's not that difficult. Don't hide things in it that give ingame advantages to SWG subscribers. Don't encourage them to gamble for these advantages.
If they want to hide things in the TCG that give ingame advantages to SWG subscribers, o.k., then just be honest about it. Make sure that only adults are gambling their real cash for a chance to get these perks, make sure they know the odds, and have them verified by a third party. Then make sure that the rules of SWG don't change, thereby devaluing players' winnings.
If they want to offer the SWG perks as some kind of cereal box promotion, that's fine too, but run it like one according to the laws in players' jurisdictions. Here in Canada for example, I would have to get the option of buying a random card pack, or I would have the option of sending a letter and thereby having my name put in a pool from which a winner would be selected with no purchase necessary.
There are models and options for SOE to follow all over the place that do not have them manipulating, misleading or exploiting SWG subscribers. The model they have chosen unfortunately runs the risk of all of these things.