It's very simple Jamie (you said it yourself already): mmos without PvE are stale things destined for the scrap-heap. Mmos with only PvE work & flourish quite well thank you (LOTRO, most of the WoW servers, ATITD , etc).
Most players are PvEers, this is utterly indisputable, even in gankfest games like EVE. The question is, why do we need cowardly, sociapathic pkscum to destroy games that are built on the foundations (& dollars!) of what we, the dedicated PvEers, do? We don't. They're a pimple on the arse of mmos, the redheaded stepchild everyone wants to slap around the head & shoulders incessantly. Except we don't, which is why they proliferate in games where unsolicited PvP is allowed & where there is almost no tangible penalty for doing so. They force us to play *their* game, rather than the game we want to play, the game we paid for. We should therefore be looking at ways of segregating or eradicating their kind from the face of today's mmorpgs, not finding new & 'creative' ways of ruining the game for the vast majority.
Here's a suggestion: let's start calling the reds 'readheads' (no insult intended to actually bloodnuts & start calling us the Righteous or Social or Altruists, rather than farking carebears. This writing on the wall was vividly plain years ago in D2 when Blizz did nothing to curb the cheating/hacking & allowed pkscum to pwn (& destroy) public games on BNet (we're talking *months* of hard work & fun in hardcore mode, down the drain because one little script kiddie thought he'd ruin your day with a TPPK hack or similar). Now you want to formalise this lunacy of old & make it more mainstream, so as to pander to the current generations of ADD morally bankrupt kiddies & tweenies??? I certainly hope the FBI is getting good profiling on future sociopaths, serial killers & terrorists by data mining pkers in PvP-enabled mmos...at least some good will come of it then!
</rant>
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
Originally posted by illanadan You do realize that all Shards (servers) were open PvP don't you? To claim that EQ killed UO is just idiocy. There was no big noticeable drop in numbers from before -> after EQ launched. Yet you could see a HUGE decline in numbers shortly after the Trammel/Felucia catastrophe.
ok, fine time for hard facts.
Trammel came out in May of 2000. UO had 185,000 subs, up 10,000 from the month before.
UO May 1998 = 90,000 May 1999 = 125,000 May 2000 = 185,000 (Here is Trammel) May 2001 = 242,000 May 2002 = 225,000 May 2003 = 250,000 May 2004 = 195,000 May 2005 = 157,000 (WoW released) May 2006 = 135,000 May 2007 = 100,000 May 2008 = 75,000
EQ May 1998 = Not released May 1999 = 65,000 May 2000 = 225,000 May 2001 = 375,000 May 2002 = 430,000 May 2003 = 445,000 May 2004 = 420,000 May 2005 = 454,000 (WoW released) May 2006 = 200,000 May 2007 = 175,000 May 2008 = No data
So we were both wrong. UO continued to grow until 2003. Looks like Trammel not only did not kill the game, it probably helped offset the new MMOs coming out that otherwise would have stolen their "Carebear" market.
The most fun I've ever had in a game was original release UO, before the red grey blue crap and all that followed.
I was not a griefer, but I did play a character who often stole, and that would result in fights sometimes I would win sometimes I would get killed. Sometimes I did kill someone I came across for the heck of it, sometimes that happened to me. Just as everyone would hop on board and loot the dead guy when someone went down. It happened, you planned for it, and it made it exciting.
Now a days there aren't as many respectable gamers, there are a lot of immature gamers who will go into a game just to repeatedly gank and grief the same people until they quit. Those were rare people back in the early days.
So yes you need restrictions, but you don't need to avoid open PvP. You can add the criminal effect where it limits your access to towns (although then you get the alt characters who are used to mule stuff back and forth). You can put on level gaps of who can attack who so the ganking isn't as severe (I would like to see this encompass healing spells too). You can add safe zones, even UO was safe in towns, all a person had to do was call for a guard and the attacker would be slain. You can make an open system that will work because there is a down side of attacking other players.
Yes I realize there are a lot of players out there who don't want excitement. They want to know what's going to happen when and want a quest guide open to know exactly how to get through this quest they've never done before and what the reward will be. There are players who fear a game being based off of skill and knowledge. There are sensitive players who would be effected in real life when their pixels are looted.
But that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of non pvp centered players who couldn't both survive, find a role, and find fun in an open world PvP system. Or an open realm pvp world.
I have played on many games on the pvp servers just because i like to pk..or try to if someone's KSing me or stuff like that.
I don't play PVP servers on games that have FFA PVP but no punishment or close to none for ganking and pking. Maybe moving the char made from lvl 1 to end lvl on a PVE sever to a PVP one.
I mean when i want to do quests or just lvl up so i can use some new shiny item i don't wanna be bothered. And even if I'm attacked then wouldn't be such a big deal if the ganker would be around my lvl...I'd be all for completely FFA ppl with very short pvp ranges lvl wise. It really annoys me when some1 with and end game toon comes and does that. We all know that at endgame there are lots of ppl bored and without severe consequences for PK some of them will always go rampage.
Maybe a good idea would be the higher the lvl gap between the PKer and the victim, the higher the punishment. So you can have at the same time ppl looking for pvp on targets about their own lvl and avoid the moronic PKers at the same time. There will be issues with low lvl twinks...but...oh well....nothing is perfect.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. A. Einstein
It's very simple Jamie (you said it yourself already): mmos without PvE are stale things destined for the scrap-heap. Mmos with only PvE work & flourish quite well thank you (LOTRO, most of the WoW servers, ATITD , etc). Most players are PvEers, this is utterly indisputable, even in gankfest games like EVE. The question is, why do we need cowardly, sociapathic pkscum to destroy games that are built on the foundations (& dollars!) of what we, the dedicated PvEers, do? We don't. They're a pimple on the arse of mmos, the redheaded stepchild everyone wants to slap around the head & shoulders incessantly. Except we don't, which is why they proliferate in games where unsolicited PvP is allowed & where there is almost no tangible penalty for doing so. They force us to play *their* game, rather than the game we want to play, the game we paid for. We should therefore be looking at ways of segregating or eradicating their kind from the face of today's mmorpgs, not finding new & 'creative' ways of ruining the game for the vast majority. Here's a suggestion: let's start calling the reds 'readheads' (no insult intended to actually bloodnuts & start calling us the Righteous or Social or Altruists, rather than farking carebears. This writing on the wall was vividly plain years ago in D2 when Blizz did nothing to curb the cheating/hacking & allowed pkscum to pwn (& destroy) public games on BNet (we're talking *months* of hard work & fun in hardcore mode, down the drain because one little script kiddie thought he'd ruin your day with a TPPK hack or similar). Now you want to formalise this lunacy of old & make it more mainstream, so as to pander to the current generations of ADD morally bankrupt kiddies & tweenies??? I certainly hope the FBI is getting good profiling on future sociopaths, serial killers & terrorists by data mining pkers in PvP-enabled mmos...at least some good will come of it then! </rant>
Your argument is completely ridiculous. Comparing PKers in games to real world sociopaths and serial killers is utter lunacy. There is absolutely no proven correlation between player killing in game and real life psychosis. The vast majority of studies on the subject correlate aggressive behavior with any form of violence in video games (including PvE). By that logic, anyone who plays an MMORPG and kills thousands and thousands of NPCs to level is statistically more aggressive than a non-gamer.
RPGs are called role-playing games for a reason. We should be able to play the role of a villain if we so choose. Yet, because of whiners like you, we are not allowed to be anything but just another hero in a sea of identical cookie-cutter clones. Where is the excitement in a game if there is never any real challenge or conflict? Where are the politics when everyone is on the same side? Why is the concept of competition so strongly opposed by so many?
It has come to the point where MMORPGs are so mind-numbingly boring that the vast majority are not worth anyone's time. Games used to be much more exciting for EVERYONE involved because there were real consequences on the line. Carebears (or whatever you want to call them) have drained every ounce of risk and fear out of these games to the point where no one cares if they live or die. Think about it... there are virtually NO consequences for death in most modern MMORPGs. What is the point of even playing in a game like that... where there is no risk and no danger?? I honestly can't see how anyone finds it enjoyable.
Yes, I am asserting that the same players who demanded that there be no PKers are the very same ones who complained about every other difficult element of MMOs until all we were left with were mindless grindfests without consequences... but of course, that is only my opinion.
Just for fun and grins I went and looked at how many people play PvP centric games vs PvE centric games over time. (Please note, the Asian market skews this way to PvP as well)
I understand why www.mmogchart.com included Lineage 1 and 2, both were in the western market, but only a tiny fraction of those subs were in the west, almost all of them were from Asia and it skews the numbers badly. (Even though in the end PvE is still massively large then PvP)
What I take from this is that PvP does much better in Asia then in the West, and that there are a LOT more people who at least like a choice about PvP rather then being forced into open PvP. That and PvP in the west has been fighting over the same 300,000 - 400,000 subs for years now, while PvE is growing rapidly.
I.E. as someone else already said. Make your game Open PvP and you are going to be relegated to a nitch market in the west.
In a game that offers FFA PvP the holy trinity of carebear, PK, Anti-PK is just as important as the PvE trinity Of tank, dps and healer.
That is pretty much what the author is stating. She is not saying all games need PK or that all PvE are carebears. The author was just using terms everyone knows like a real gamer would do as well.
Without non-PvP focused players a FFA PvP game is just a FPS. It is not a MMO with a thriving community. A FFA PvP game requires all three play styles to be able to sustain itself.
Nobody cares about your individual anti-PvP agenda. Stay on topic and discuss what the Author was actually talking about.
In a game that offers FFA PvP the holy trinity of carebear, PK, Anti-PK is just as important as the PvE trinity Of tank, dps and healer.
That is pretty much what the author is stating. She is not saying all games need PK or that all PvE are carebears. The author was just using terms everyone knows like a real gamer would do as well.
Without non-PvP focused players a FFA PvP game is just a FPS. It is not a MMO with a thriving community. A FFA PvP game requires all three play styles to be able to sustain itself.
Nobody cares about your individual anti-PvP agenda. Stay on topic and discuss what the Author was actually talking about.
In PvE the Tank provides agro control and damage soaking, The Healer provides the healing needed to keep everyone alive and the DPS provides the damage output to kill the monsters.
That's why that is called the Holy Trinity.
In PvP the Anti-PK provides some very limited protection to the Carebear allowing them to play the game. The Carebear provides the Anti-PK with a reason to exist. What does the PK provide?
What does the PK do for the Carebear? Sure if there were no PKs the Anti-PK would have no reason to exist. But in the PvE trinity all 3 provide something the other two need.
(Too Long Did Not Read Version) Carbears get less NOTHING from PKs.
In a game that offers FFA PvP the holy trinity of carebear, PK, Anti-PK is just as important as the PvE trinity Of tank, dps and healer.
That is pretty much what the author is stating. She is not saying all games need PK or that all PvE are carebears. The author was just using terms everyone knows like a real gamer would do as well.
Without non-PvP focused players a FFA PvP game is just a FPS. It is not a MMO with a thriving community. A FFA PvP game requires all three play styles to be able to sustain itself.
Nobody cares about your individual anti-PvP agenda. Stay on topic and discuss what the Author was actually talking about.
In PvE the Tank provides agro control and damage soaking, The Healer provides the healing needed to keep everyone alive and the DPS provides the damage output to kill the monsters.
That's why that is called the Holy Trinity.
In PvP the Anti-PK provides some very limited protection to the Carebear allowing them to play the game. The Carebear provides the Anti-PK with a reason to exist. What does the PK provide?
What does the PK do for the Carebear? Sure if there were no PKs the Anti-PK would have no reason to exist. But in the PvE trinity all 3 provide something the other two need.
(Too Long Did Not Read Version)
Carbears get less NOTHING from PKs.
Imo you are sorely mistaken. Carebears in most games with open pvp are the crafters/gatherers/rare mob killers or whatever nets them profit in the end. As in, carebears want to make profit with minimized risk. Of course in open pvp care bears will have more risk than in close pvp, but in open pvp (if well implemented) carebears should be in for more profit than in closed pvp.
Lets say people can be looted if they die. If this is the case, all the PKers provide the carebears with a constant stream of customers for newly crafted items for instance. If items slowly decay on player death with no or limited repair options, carebears will again profit from more item sales.
Imo, if you play for instance WoW and just do it for the endgame raids, you might aswell play some single player game with multiplayer options for cooperative mode. You are not in fact playing an MMO in a world where actions matter. Where is the room for the roles in mmoRpg if all everyone does is the same ? Is it not more fun to have the role of a business man where you have to manage the risk of getting robbed by hiring an amount of bodyguards (another role) suiting the amount of risk you deem yourself in, as opposed to playing a business man where success aka profit in the long run is a given thing, because time invested = more profit no matter if are a complete idiot at what you do.
Imo you are sorely mistaken. Carebears in most games with open pvp are the crafters/gatherers/rare mob killers or whatever nets them profit in the end. As in, carebears want to make profit with minimized risk. Of course in open pvp care bears will have more risk than in close pvp, but in open pvp (if well implemented) carebears should be in for more profit than in closed pvp. Lets say people can be looted if they die. If this is the case, all the PKers provide the carebears with a constant stream of customers for newly crafted items for instance. If items slowly decay on player death with no or limited repair options, carebears will again profit from more item sales. Imo, if you play for instance WoW and just do it for the endgame raids, you might aswell play some single player game with multiplayer options for cooperative mode. You are not in fact playing an MMO in a world where actions matter. Where is the room for the roles in mmoRpg if all everyone does is the same ? Is it not more fun to have the role of a business man where you have to manage the risk of getting robbed by hiring an amount of bodyguards (another role) suiting the amount of risk you deem yourself in, as opposed to playing a business man where success aka profit in the long run is a given thing, because time invested = more profit no matter if are a complete idiot at what you do.
So the reason a Carebear should play in FFA PvP is so he can make more money.... So the only role for Carebears in FFA PvP is crafting. Gotcha.
BTW, almost no Carebear wants that role. Wheee I get to spend a hour hiring guards, spend a hour or two walking around the land collecting mats. Then back to the city where I can make the items for another hour or so. WOW what a thrilling game session, that sure beats questing or doing a dungeon crawl.
Oh and the guards... I'm sure they wont eat the bulk of your profits, or if they don't what are the odd's they will just rob you anyway?
Sorry the Carebear role you are talking about is so slim as to almost not exist. All you have done is pointed out how much the PKers and Anti-PKers need Carebears, but have still not given a reason they need the PKers.
(Oh sure I am sure out of every 1,000 or so Carbear players 1 will find that fun. After all look at all the accountants in the world)
I disagree, the carebears do get something from the pks, they get excitement! and high dose of adrenilan rush ..... something they cant get from a normal mob.
I was there and hated pks so much i went anti pk. I got revenge..... I was in a guild that would set traps for pks just to kill them,was so much fun letting that lone miner mined away while we sat and waited for the pks to show up only for us to come out of hiding and slaughter him sending him to days of stat loss lol.
So i do think the article was right on the money they all 3 need each other to make a good pvp game flow correctly. And what does the carebear get without the pks? boring mind numbing grinding been there for many years now. Sure they get peace and no worries of being pked, but they also miss that rush.
I feel carebears while most of my friends are just that are missing a huge part of the reason we play games online together. It's the fight of human mind and skill vs human mind and skill.
The article was spot on and for thoughs of you that did not get it, you obviously were not there to experience it first hand.
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
I disagree, the carebears do get something from the pks, they get excitement! and high dose of adrenilan rush ..... something they cant get from a normal mob. I was there and hated pks so much i went anti pk. I got revenge..... I was in a guild that would set traps for pks just to kill them,was so much fun letting that lone miner mined away while we sat and waited for the pks to show up only for us to come out of hiding and slaughter him sending him to days of stat loss lol. So i do think the article was right on the money they all 3 need each other to make a good pvp game flow correctly. And what does the carebear get without the pks? boring mind numbing grinding been there for many years now. Sure they get peace and no worries of being pked, but they also miss that rush. I feel carebears while most of my friends are just that are missing a huge part of the reason we play games online together. It's the fight of human mind and skill vs human mind and skill. The article was spot on and for thoughs of you that did not get it, you obviously were not there to experience it first hand.
Ironically, all you are saying is that you were not having fun playing in a FFA PvP game so you became a Anti-PK.
So what the game gave you was it made you change from your preferred play style of the time (Carebear) and made you become a Anti-PK.
Once more. PKers need Carebears, Anti-PKers need Carebears. But Carebears do not need PKers.
Once more. PKers need Carebears, Anti-PKers need Carebears. But Carebears do not need PKers.
What about some of us players who enjoy living in the "wild west" atmosphere? Always having to look over your shoulder is what makes the game fun for some people.
MO is trying to tap a market that has more potential to grow I believe. Everyone who plays a MMOG today didn't play in 1997 when UO was released, the market obviously grew. This wild wild west version of an MMO has been tried in Darkfall (was is successful?), obviously it was poorly done. Hopefully MO can get it right.
The guild I belong to, Shadowclan, has been waiting years for a quality game. We were huge in UO, huge in Shadowbane, as well as DAOC, and maybe we will get to enjoy MO - if the developers can work some magic and make a quality game.
Imo you are sorely mistaken. Carebears in most games with open pvp are the crafters/gatherers/rare mob killers or whatever nets them profit in the end. As in, carebears want to make profit with minimized risk. Of course in open pvp care bears will have more risk than in close pvp, but in open pvp (if well implemented) carebears should be in for more profit than in closed pvp.
Lets say people can be looted if they die. If this is the case, all the PKers provide the carebears with a constant stream of customers for newly crafted items for instance. If items slowly decay on player death with no or limited repair options, carebears will again profit from more item sales.
Imo, if you play for instance WoW and just do it for the endgame raids, you might aswell play some single player game with multiplayer options for cooperative mode. You are not in fact playing an MMO in a world where actions matter. Where is the room for the roles in mmoRpg if all everyone does is the same ? Is it not more fun to have the role of a business man where you have to manage the risk of getting robbed by hiring an amount of bodyguards (another role) suiting the amount of risk you deem yourself in, as opposed to playing a business man where success aka profit in the long run is a given thing, because time invested = more profit no matter if are a complete idiot at what you do.
So the reason a Carebear should play in FFA PvP is so he can make more money.... So the only role for Carebears in FFA PvP is crafting. Gotcha.
BTW, almost no Carebear wants that role. Wheee I get to spend a hour hiring guards, spend a hour or two walking around the land collecting mats. Then back to the city where I can make the items for another hour or so. WOW what a thrilling game session, that sure beats questing or doing a dungeon crawl.
Oh and the guards... I'm sure they wont eat the bulk of your profits, or if they don't what are the odd's they will just rob you anyway?
Sorry the Carebear role you are talking about is so slim as to almost not exist. All you have done is pointed out how much the PKers and Anti-PKers need Carebears, but have still not given a reason they need the PKers.
(Oh sure I am sure out of every 1,000 or so Carbear players 1 will find that fun. After all look at all the accountants in the world)
I guess my point of view stems from the fact that I would much hope for something sandbox like to be more mainstream because there is imo so much more potential in a game where players get to form the world and evolving a storyline on their own than there is in a themepark like WoW. Games like WoWs biggest problem is to me that there is basicly no content other than what developers put in, meaning that there is a finish line, which players will eventually reach making the game boring because you to do the exact same instance over and over again till the next time developers dish out an expansion or patch with extra dungeons.
This is something that a well done sandbox will not suffer from. If players can impact the game world enough while the game world has a real world like economy, the game will evolve on its own, with alliances, politics and what not.
In this case I will certainly maintain that the carebear needs the PKer and the anti-PKer. Take the economy in EvE (which I like and is supposed to be one of the strong points of the game), in this sort of economy practically everything can be crafted by players, and most things are actually only craftable by players. The normal economy rules of supply and demand rules this market, which makes it possible for people to have a lot of carebear roles regarding market/logistics/crafting/resource gathering. These roles make a lot of sense because the economy is thriving. Part of having a thriving economy is having people continually buy stuff. Continually buying stuff will not happen if someone can get the BiS and never worry about gear again. This type of world kills any sort of realistic economy. This in turn means that the carebear roles I mentioned above does not make for a viable career option in the world because they cant make any money.
The carebear types who like doing "instances" for loot for example, will have no reason to do this once they have the best gear from the hardest currently implemented instance in a game like WoW. In a game like EvE which has a real economy carebears in the best spaceship with the best items equipped still have a reason to do their "instances" because it will net them profit in terms of money. Money they would not have made if noone ever lost their items, because there would then not be enough buyers who wanted the carebears hard earned loot.
I realise that my current train of argument relies on the fact that I think a working economy is one of the most important factors in an MMO because it provides a very simple goal other than getting BiS from the hardest instance and waiting around till expansion day. It gives you the goal of getting more money by however means suits you. Theres a reason why Bill Gates and Donald Trump still go to work everyday even though they could retire themselves, their children and their whole damn family without any of them ever needing to worry about money. The reason is that having money allows you to shape the world around you, and the more you have the greater impact you can have on the said world. Which in turn parses well over to games; the struggle to get to the top of the world is the most fun on the journey there, not when you actually reach the top. Aka. its not fun to sit on BiS and have nothing to do. On the other hand in an EvE type game you will not reach the top meaning the game can potentially entertain you for a lot longer than any other game.
Take Donald Trump and Bill Gates again, these dudes are higher on the ladder towards world domination than both you and I (I should think that even though I dont know you ofc), but they still find it fun to make more money by being good at what they do.
Btw, I wont argue that it necessarily is PKers you need, you could have PvE mobs/bosses/whatever be very hard and pair that with item decay / loss on death to achieve the same effect regarding working economy. But this would mean exactly the same for the carebear as having PKers: They cant just go about their business with no risk.
I do think some people are reading a little too broadly on a topic that's specific to unrestricted PvP sandbox games, although I suppose the sentence "All three groups need each other for the game's survival." doesn't help. A poor choice of words on my part, perhaps, but I think the needs of the carebears for the other groups depends largely on what the carebear's reason for being in the game is.
I've never been that far on the side of the carebear-camp to quite understand why carebears would still want to play an open PvP game - but they're still out there, and both anti-PKs and PKs need them to keep the game from going stale. I do think, as someone mentioned earlier, profit is a big thing for some of them - some players do honestly enjoy coming into a game and making a financial empire. A PvP game - especially one heavy on crafting, as MO seems to be inclined toward - definitely feeds their pockets, and feeds them well. What's a carebear crafter going to do with that kind of gear?
I think it's clear, looking at numbers, that carebears are making increasing migrations away from PvP games because they now have the options to do so. That's why games in the style of Mortal Online need to offer them carrots that will make them want to come play. For some people, that's graphics, story, roleplay, exploring, etc - all those great things a sandbox can offer. The carebear may not need the PvPers as much as they need the carebear, and that's where the game has to step in.
Also keep in mind that the community break down is a lot more complex than this; there's lines crossed between all groups, and many players belong to more than one camp, but in varying degrees.
It's very simple Jamie (you said it yourself already): mmos without PvE are stale things destined for the scrap-heap. Mmos with only PvE work & flourish quite well thank you (LOTRO, most of the WoW servers, ATITD , etc). Most players are PvEers, this is utterly indisputable, even in gankfest games like EVE. The question is, why do we need cowardly, sociapathic pkscum to destroy games that are built on the foundations (& dollars!) of what we, the dedicated PvEers, do? We don't. They're a pimple on the arse of mmos, the redheaded stepchild everyone wants to slap around the head & shoulders incessantly. Except we don't, which is why they proliferate in games where unsolicited PvP is allowed & where there is almost no tangible penalty for doing so. They force us to play *their* game, rather than the game we want to play, the game we paid for. We should therefore be looking at ways of segregating or eradicating their kind from the face of today's mmorpgs, not finding new & 'creative' ways of ruining the game for the vast majority. Here's a suggestion: let's start calling the reds 'readheads' (no insult intended to actually bloodnuts & start calling us the Righteous or Social or Altruists, rather than farking carebears. This writing on the wall was vividly plain years ago in D2 when Blizz did nothing to curb the cheating/hacking & allowed pkscum to pwn (& destroy) public games on BNet (we're talking *months* of hard work & fun in hardcore mode, down the drain because one little script kiddie thought he'd ruin your day with a TPPK hack or similar). Now you want to formalise this lunacy of old & make it more mainstream, so as to pander to the current generations of ADD morally bankrupt kiddies & tweenies??? I certainly hope the FBI is getting good profiling on future sociopaths, serial killers & terrorists by data mining pkers in PvP-enabled mmos...at least some good will come of it then! </rant>
Your argument is completely ridiculous. Comparing PKers in games to real world sociopaths and serial killers is utter lunacy. There is absolutely no proven correlation between player killing in game and real life psychosis. The vast majority of studies on the subject correlate aggressive behavior with any form of violence in video games (including PvE). By that logic, anyone who plays an MMORPG and kills thousands and thousands of NPCs to level is statistically more aggressive than a non-gamer.
RPGs are called role-playing games for a reason. We should be able to play the role of a villain if we so choose. Yet, because of whiners like you, we are not allowed to be anything but just another hero in a sea of identical cookie-cutter clones. Where is the excitement in a game if there is never any real challenge or conflict? Where are the politics when everyone is on the same side? Why is the concept of competition so strongly opposed by so many?
It has come to the point where MMORPGs are so mind-numbingly boring that the vast majority are not worth anyone's time. Games used to be much more exciting for EVERYONE involved because there were real consequences on the line. Carebears (or whatever you want to call them) have drained every ounce of risk and fear out of these games to the point where no one cares if they live or die. Think about it... there are virtually NO consequences for death in most modern MMORPGs. What is the point of even playing in a game like that... where there is no risk and no danger?? I honestly can't see how anyone finds it enjoyable.
Yes, I am asserting that the same players who demanded that there be no PKers are the very same ones who complained about every other difficult element of MMOs until all we were left with were mindless grindfests without consequences... but of course, that is only my opinion.
I was clearly talking about non-consentual pkscum, NOT consenting PvP. And read my entire post again (except for the last paragraph, which was clearly tongue-in-cheek, hence the </rant> ;-p). I'm talking about the griefers & pkscum who have become prevalent in any PvP game, not just mmos, because 'there is no honour among thieves' & all that shit.
Repeat after me boyz n girlz: PK <> PvP. PK <> PvP. PK <> PvP.
It is THEY who have ruined honourable PvP dueling & fair play, NOT us 'carebears'. And we're the only ones that seem to farking care lol!!! And the stronger the PvE objector/PvP proponent, the more likely they're just lying pkscum in reality I find.
If mmo devs had half a brain & stood back from the trees & looked at the forest with some simple data mining & analysis, they'd see what most of the rest of us see as plain as the noses on our faces:
1. Most mmo players are PvEers
2. PvP must be consentual, as anything else leads to major griefing, ganking & general asshattery
3. PvP, if universal, must be structured so there are real & lasting penalties commensurate with the crime. No pker would ever get away with the shit they pull in RL for very long. Sure, mmos are not simulations, but the time ppl spend is very real & precious to a lot of us. UO did this fairly well 10+ years ago, with player run laws. Why have we gone off the beaten path into free-for-all chaos since???
4. If we pay to play PvE, then that's what we want to play - not someone's else's antisocial griefing match! And we certainly don't want to be dragged down to their level. or they've won their little grief game. pkk == pk with an extra letter in the end.
Only GW has got all of these elements right to date. Take a leaf mmo makers.
And I got my kicks plenty from playing hardcore D2 back in the day. Nothing in any PvP mmo comes close today. Nothing. Try building/playing & equipping a char for months, only to have it all taken away, sometimes without even seeing the perp, in the blink of an eye! Lag & bugs were bad enough, but for Blizz to basically turn a blind eye to most of this was unforgiveable. Tell me I don't know about risk *guffaw*.
In any case, you sound like a 'respectable' PvPer, not out to urinate on anyone's parade just for the sake of it.. But ofr everyone of you, there are literally 100s if not 1000s of kiddies, antisocial wankers & other types of malcontents, who take out their life's problems on the majority of us who want to play PvE/coop, because that means only we are responsible for our failures & our own risk/fun/reward is in our own hands, as it should be. Here endeth the carebear lesson .
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
Just for fun and grins I went and looked at how many people play PvP centric games vs PvE centric games over time. (Please note, the Asian market skews this way to PvP as well) 1997 PvP 100% (75,000) PvE 0% (0) (UO Released)
2008 PvP 14% (2,469,243) PvE 86% (15,118,173) I understand why www.mmogchart.com included Lineage 1 and 2, both were in the western market, but only a tiny fraction of those subs were in the west, almost all of them were from Asia and it skews the numbers badly. (Even though in the end PvE is still massively large then PvP) Here is the same data, minus Lineage 1 and 2. 1997 PvP 100% (75,000) PvE 0% (0)
1998 PvP 100% (125,862) PvE 0% (0)
1999 PvP 42% (150,000) PvE 58% (211,000)
2000 PvP 35% (235,000) PvE 65% (429,000)
2001 PvP 25% (256,200) PvE 75% (782,732)
2002 PvP 18% (250,000) PvE 82% (1,123,145)
2003 PvP 15% (344,992) PvE 85% (1,930,957)
2004 PvP 8% (280,219) PvE 92% (3,024,520)
2005 PvP 3% (240,367) PvE 97% (8,001,801)
2006 PvP 3% (286,413) PvE 97% (10,790,601)
2007 PvP 2% (309,747) PvE 98% (13,528,074)
2008 PvP 3% (406,510) PvE 97% (15,118,173) What I take from this is that PvP does much better in Asia then in the West, and that there are a LOT more people who at least like a choice about PvP rather then being forced into open PvP. That and PvP in the west has been fighting over the same 300,000 - 400,000 subs for years now, while PvE is growing rapidly. I.E. as someone else already said. Make your game Open PvP and you are going to be relegated to a nitch market in the west.
Those figures are nowhere near accurate or meaningful. Just because a game has PvP (even open PvP), does NOT mean most of the players are there to PvP/PK others. A lot of us in the early days of UO & EQ (even M59 before that), right up to EVE today, were/are in it to build communities, for the teamplay, coop & social aspects & to help others with the game.
If you were able to take a true statistical snapshot of how many PvPers there are in any one mainstream western mmo ever, I would be almost certain the number never went over 10%, & only a fraction of that for pkscum. (Not counting Asian-specific mmos of course, which I don't play for this very reason, though I have tried a few).
So, why do we even bother with PvP to satiate the vast minority of adrenaline junkies out there? Beats me. Let them play fps gankfests like camperstrike or whatnot & leave the rest of us to build safe & fun virtual worlds & communities I say!
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
Btw, I wont argue that it necessarily is PKers you need, you could have PvE mobs/bosses/whatever be very hard and pair that with item decay / loss on death to achieve the same effect regarding working economy. But this would mean exactly the same for the carebear as having PKers: They cant just go about their business with no risk.
No it wouldn't. The risk would/could stil be calculated, & you could always do something else in most cases if you didn't want to take that risk. A pkscum coming out of nowhere, twinked up to the eyeballs with 1-shot kill equipment, most certainly is NOT a risk you can anticipate, mitigate or control in any way, while you're harvesting crafting components say, or already down to 1/4 life fighting some tough mobs. In my experience, 1% of PvPers out there are 'honourable' duelers & consentual PvPers. Thanks WoW for helping to drop that figure a few percentage points in the last 5 years! ;-p
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
As a fairly vocal carebear of the modern UO, I agree with the article up a point. Pure PvP-enabled will generally push people away who aren't having success (it's hard to maintain the illusion of success against a good trash-talker). Pure PvE will push away people who get bored once they've beaten everything once and know they can do it again. Having options is very healthy and one should not underestimate the value of the moral affirmation of choosing anew each day how you want to live in the world.
However, seeing the world as a triad of playstyles (PK/anti-PK/carebear) requires the carebear to spend time "being the mongbat" - and in UO this is done by placing rewards in PvP areas so that if I will not risk being pwned on the battlefield, I'll be pwned in the game's economy. It works up to a point, but the problem is that people who cannot be lured or threatened across the line can not only run away to a non-PvP area, they can also run away to another game, so there's a limit to how much arm-twisting can be done. And I feel that's where the article's model starts to break down.
Leave the carebears feeling like second-class citizens and they start to leave. Give the PKers nothing but other hardened PKers and they lose the sense of power that motivates them. Throw them both a bone and either the fur flies like wet cats tied up in a bag or they start to behave like completely separate communities playing separate games, subdividing again into even finer subcultures. It's a difficult balancing act.
Btw, I wont argue that it necessarily is PKers you need, you could have PvE mobs/bosses/whatever be very hard and pair that with item decay / loss on death to achieve the same effect regarding working economy. But this would mean exactly the same for the carebear as having PKers: They cant just go about their business with no risk.
No it wouldn't. The risk would/could stil be calculated, & you could always do something else in most cases if you didn't want to take that risk. A pkscum coming out of nowhere, twinked up to the eyeballs with 1-shot kill equipment, most certainly is NOT a risk you can anticipate, mitigate or control in any way, while you're harvesting crafting components say, or already down to 1/4 life fighting some tough mobs. In my experience, 1% of PvPers out there are 'honourable' duelers & consentual PvPers. Thanks WoW for helping to drop that figure a few percentage points in the last 5 years! ;-p
Risk cant always be calculated. It can in most of todays games, but there is no reason that it should be so other than that carebears want to know they are able to succeed on a venture even before they undertake said adventure.
You could have a game where a dungeon didnt feature the same boss/mobs everytime, and where the different bosses/mobs didnt do exactly the same tactics everytime. Not knowing what the boss is going to do to you and what attacks he will do could very much be tuned to mean that sometimes people would need to try and escape due to getting a too hard boss, and even though realising you cant take this particular boss with this particular group, you might still be certain to loose 1-2 of your party unless you execute your escape flawlessly. Of course players could then do a dungeon where the difficulty range was so small that they could do all varieties of the bosses/mobs in the dungeon, but this should of course yield so little reward that you will seriously consider doing the harder dungeons even though you might cash in a loss in profit instead of a win.
Also I dont agree that you cant manage the risk of a ganker. If the penalty for being ganked is too high for you, you should either stay away from where you get ganked, or gather likeminded individuals into a guild/make alliances or whatever and make a place for yourselves and your friends within the game world, where some of your friends get a kick out killing the potential gankers that enter your territory, and you thereby get to gather resources or whatever in this territory reasonably free of danger. Of course you can still get ganked, but this ganker should then be running a big risk of running into your big friends who will tear him a new one.
Things like this require a sandbox though. Your only option in a game like WoW is to get a full party with you while you run around gathering herbs. Thats just not something thats gonna happen ever. It could only happen if WoW suddenly decided herbs/whatever were really important, and at the same time made you face harsh penalties for being ganked. People would certainly help each other out to avoid this more in this case.
I have a strict vision on this topic. And I believe I am thus classified as a "Carebear". You see, I am all for PvP. But am against PK. A subtle, yet important difference there.
PvP can be fun. Why? Consent. Either though mutual "Duel" agreements, "raising the flag", clan wars or just entering designated Player Combat areas. Why is it fun? Because when you die, you know why. You know who is to blame, you know exactly what the reasons are that made you find yourself face down in a ditch, debuffed, looted and possibly liptoned. Were it your opponent's skills/spells/gear, lag, your going AFK, or just missing a button press. You died, and you have no-one to blame but yourself.
PK, however. Can happen even during PvP. You see, I count "griefing" into PK. That being... camping the hospital building to kill you as soon as you walk out the door, for instance. But also, it can be for no reason but "kicks". You are, looting some rare stuff that you need, and I mean NEED, in a hard to reach spot. There's plenty for everyone who are there. And this guy walks up and kills you when you are "stunned" in the looting mechanic (whatever that may be, animation, pop-up window, etc). He did it for kicks. Ok, sure, he might say it's because he wanted more. But I did say there was plenty. Or then when you are AFK. Getting a fresh drink, answering the door, letting the dog out, whatever it may be, however short time. You may come back and find yourself dead.
Bad? Yes. Why? Because you grow frustrated. Why? Because you are not to blame. Someone else is. You go frustrated, even angry that for some ridiculous reason, you just lost some very rare loot, a lot of experience points, stats. Or just got set back by half a map. Happens too often, you leave. You payed to have fun, you play to have fun, and thus help others have fun too, with you. You did not pay, to let others leech fun off you. To be the butt end of their jokes or actions.
So, with that said. And been through a number of MMO's and their PvP systems. I have to say that PvP in an MMO works only IF, it is designed in from the start. Accomodated, merged. Not forced, not illogical. But goes with the lore and the systems. A part of the game, not a slapped on feature like it is in the grand majority of games. This has caused me to develop a view that the BEST PvP is to be had in games that only FOR PvP. Sadly, such games are more often than not, shooters. Now I love some FPS mayhem like any other bloke. I can spend just as much time playing round and round, campaign after campaign, in any multiplayer shooter, as I can spend looting rats, and doing fetch quests. They just tend to lack the depth of story that MMO's do. So, I as a Carebear. Am destined to forever swing between games, like a perpetual pendulum of indecision, trying to find a fix for the current addiction of the hour.
I'd like to add this small paragraph to explain exactly just why MMO's aren't really suited for PvP. It's a system that, in some form, every MMO out today has. There are a few that are coming out, using a new system, better suited for PvP. The system I am talking about, are levels. What a shooter has, and what makes it so much more appealing for PvP, is just how level the playing field is. The winner in a fight is chosen by the conditions. Their weapons for the environment, their numbers for that of the enemy. Their willingness to work together and communication. In an MMO, a winner, is more often than not, chosen by your level. In PvE, the level system is one of the best. It adds a feel of progression. But in PvP, all it does is unreasonably tip the balance to the side with players who ground (I do believe this is the past form for grind) or just played more, to each superiority through a mathematical system that simply adds to a player's total health pool and damage dealt. For some reason, the higher level you are, the more sharper your sword becomes. Why is that? No, really. A sword, is a sword, is a sword.
Too bad your article is pointless. Why exactly does a carebear need a PK or even an Anti-PK? The PK kills him and loots him, wasting his time and effort while providing nothing to him. All an anti-PKer does is act much less efficiently in preventing griefing than a game with restricted or consensual PvP. The point is that both PK and anti-PKers need carebears much more than they need them. PKers need weak targets to prey on, and anti-PKers need someone to protect to feel morally justified. Carebears really don't need either.
*ding ding ding* we have a winner. excellent summary.
Too bad your article is pointless. Why exactly does a carebear need a PK or even an Anti-PK? The PK kills him and loots him, wasting his time and effort while providing nothing to him. All an anti-PKer does is act much less efficiently in preventing griefing than a game with restricted or consensual PvP. The point is that both PK and anti-PKers need carebears much more than they need them. PKers need weak targets to prey on, and anti-PKers need someone to protect to feel morally justified. Carebears really don't need either.
*ding ding ding* we have a winner. excellent summary.
So, with that said. And been through a number of MMO's and their PvP systems. I have to say that PvP in an MMO works only IF, it is designed in from the start. Accomodated, merged. Not forced, not illogical. But goes with the lore and the systems. A part of the game, not a slapped on feature like it is in the grand majority of games. This has caused me to develop a view that the BEST PvP is to be had in games that only FOR PvP. Sadly, such games are more often than not, shooters. Now I love some FPS mayhem like any other bloke. I can spend just as much time playing round and round, campaign after campaign, in any multiplayer shooter, as I can spend looting rats, and doing fetch quests. They just tend to lack the depth of story that MMO's do. So, I as a Carebear. Am destined to forever swing between games, like a perpetual pendulum of indecision, trying to find a fix for the current addiction of the hour. I'd like to add this small paragraph to explain exactly just why MMO's aren't really suited for PvP. It's a system that, in some form, every MMO out today has. There are a few that are coming out, using a new system, better suited for PvP. The system I am talking about, are levels. What a shooter has, and what makes it so much more appealing for PvP, is just how level the playing field is. The winner in a fight is chosen by the conditions. Their weapons for the environment, their numbers for that of the enemy. Their willingness to work together and communication. In an MMO, a winner, is more often than not, chosen by your level. In PvE, the level system is one of the best. It adds a feel of progression. But in PvP, all it does is unreasonably tip the balance to the side with players who ground (I do believe this is the past form for grind) or just played more, to each superiority through a mathematical system that simply adds to a player's total health pool and damage dealt. For some reason, the higher level you are, the more sharper your sword becomes. Why is that? No, really. A sword, is a sword, is a sword.
Both of these paragraphs I agree on, without agreeing that PvP isnt suited for MMOs. FPS or the is way better for matching your skills against another player because as you say theres no difference in gear or levels. This is the reason why a real good sandbox game imo should not feature what most people think of when we say levels. Take EvE online for example, in this game you will surely gain advantages due to having been in the game a long time and trained a lot of skills. These do make the playing field uneven, but not to the point where they make player skill not matter. A player who brings the wrong setup to the fight will loose even if he has far superior skills trained on his character, and his opponent brought the right setup. Also being the equivalent of epic equipped lvl 80 in EvE doesnt mean that 2-3 well coordinated lvl 10s who brought the right setup and gear to take you down cant do so.
Im saying that PvP as a skill match against another human doesnt suit the average MMO, but some MMOs could(and do) very much feature character skill progression that makes for an RPG sort of feel, without making you need to jump on the 10 hour grind a day epics train if you want to stand a chance of killing even the worst noob who has done that train already and therefore is sitting on BiS items.
Comments
It's very simple Jamie (you said it yourself already): mmos without PvE are stale things destined for the scrap-heap. Mmos with only PvE work & flourish quite well thank you (LOTRO, most of the WoW servers, ATITD , etc).
Most players are PvEers, this is utterly indisputable, even in gankfest games like EVE. The question is, why do we need cowardly, sociapathic pkscum to destroy games that are built on the foundations (& dollars!) of what we, the dedicated PvEers, do? We don't. They're a pimple on the arse of mmos, the redheaded stepchild everyone wants to slap around the head & shoulders incessantly. Except we don't, which is why they proliferate in games where unsolicited PvP is allowed & where there is almost no tangible penalty for doing so. They force us to play *their* game, rather than the game we want to play, the game we paid for. We should therefore be looking at ways of segregating or eradicating their kind from the face of today's mmorpgs, not finding new & 'creative' ways of ruining the game for the vast majority.
Here's a suggestion: let's start calling the reds 'readheads' (no insult intended to actually bloodnuts
& start calling us the Righteous or Social or Altruists, rather than farking carebears. This writing on the wall was vividly plain years ago in D2 when Blizz did nothing to curb the cheating/hacking & allowed pkscum to pwn (& destroy) public games on BNet (we're talking *months* of hard work & fun in hardcore mode, down the drain because one little script kiddie thought he'd ruin your day with a TPPK hack or similar). Now you want to formalise this lunacy of old & make it more mainstream, so as to pander to the current generations of ADD morally bankrupt kiddies & tweenies??? I certainly hope the FBI is getting good profiling on future sociopaths, serial killers & terrorists by data mining pkers in PvP-enabled mmos...at least some good will come of it then!
</rant>
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
ok, fine time for hard facts.
Trammel came out in May of 2000. UO had 185,000 subs, up 10,000 from the month before.
UO
May 1998 = 90,000
May 1999 = 125,000
May 2000 = 185,000 (Here is Trammel)
May 2001 = 242,000
May 2002 = 225,000
May 2003 = 250,000
May 2004 = 195,000
May 2005 = 157,000 (WoW released)
May 2006 = 135,000
May 2007 = 100,000
May 2008 = 75,000
EQ
May 1998 = Not released
May 1999 = 65,000
May 2000 = 225,000
May 2001 = 375,000
May 2002 = 430,000
May 2003 = 445,000
May 2004 = 420,000
May 2005 = 454,000 (WoW released)
May 2006 = 200,000
May 2007 = 175,000
May 2008 = No data
So we were both wrong. UO continued to grow until 2003. Looks like Trammel not only did not kill the game, it probably helped offset the new MMOs coming out that otherwise would have stolen their "Carebear" market.
The most fun I've ever had in a game was original release UO, before the red grey blue crap and all that followed.
I was not a griefer, but I did play a character who often stole, and that would result in fights sometimes I would win sometimes I would get killed. Sometimes I did kill someone I came across for the heck of it, sometimes that happened to me. Just as everyone would hop on board and loot the dead guy when someone went down. It happened, you planned for it, and it made it exciting.
Now a days there aren't as many respectable gamers, there are a lot of immature gamers who will go into a game just to repeatedly gank and grief the same people until they quit. Those were rare people back in the early days.
So yes you need restrictions, but you don't need to avoid open PvP. You can add the criminal effect where it limits your access to towns (although then you get the alt characters who are used to mule stuff back and forth). You can put on level gaps of who can attack who so the ganking isn't as severe (I would like to see this encompass healing spells too). You can add safe zones, even UO was safe in towns, all a person had to do was call for a guard and the attacker would be slain. You can make an open system that will work because there is a down side of attacking other players.
Yes I realize there are a lot of players out there who don't want excitement. They want to know what's going to happen when and want a quest guide open to know exactly how to get through this quest they've never done before and what the reward will be. There are players who fear a game being based off of skill and knowledge. There are sensitive players who would be effected in real life when their pixels are looted.
But that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of non pvp centered players who couldn't both survive, find a role, and find fun in an open world PvP system. Or an open realm pvp world.
Well i consider myself a "pvp-ish" carebear^^.
I have played on many games on the pvp servers just because i like to pk..or try to if someone's KSing me or stuff like that.
I don't play PVP servers on games that have FFA PVP but no punishment or close to none for ganking and pking. Maybe moving the char made from lvl 1 to end lvl on a PVE sever to a PVP one.
I mean when i want to do quests or just lvl up so i can use some new shiny item i don't wanna be bothered. And even if I'm attacked then wouldn't be such a big deal if the ganker would be around my lvl...I'd be all for completely FFA ppl with very short pvp ranges lvl wise. It really annoys me when some1 with and end game toon comes and does that. We all know that at endgame there are lots of ppl bored and without severe consequences for PK some of them will always go rampage.
Maybe a good idea would be the higher the lvl gap between the PKer and the victim, the higher the punishment. So you can have at the same time ppl looking for pvp on targets about their own lvl and avoid the moronic PKers at the same time. There will be issues with low lvl twinks...but...oh well....nothing is perfect.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. A. Einstein
Your argument is completely ridiculous. Comparing PKers in games to real world sociopaths and serial killers is utter lunacy. There is absolutely no proven correlation between player killing in game and real life psychosis. The vast majority of studies on the subject correlate aggressive behavior with any form of violence in video games (including PvE). By that logic, anyone who plays an MMORPG and kills thousands and thousands of NPCs to level is statistically more aggressive than a non-gamer.
RPGs are called role-playing games for a reason. We should be able to play the role of a villain if we so choose. Yet, because of whiners like you, we are not allowed to be anything but just another hero in a sea of identical cookie-cutter clones. Where is the excitement in a game if there is never any real challenge or conflict? Where are the politics when everyone is on the same side? Why is the concept of competition so strongly opposed by so many?
It has come to the point where MMORPGs are so mind-numbingly boring that the vast majority are not worth anyone's time. Games used to be much more exciting for EVERYONE involved because there were real consequences on the line. Carebears (or whatever you want to call them) have drained every ounce of risk and fear out of these games to the point where no one cares if they live or die. Think about it... there are virtually NO consequences for death in most modern MMORPGs. What is the point of even playing in a game like that... where there is no risk and no danger?? I honestly can't see how anyone finds it enjoyable.
Yes, I am asserting that the same players who demanded that there be no PKers are the very same ones who complained about every other difficult element of MMOs until all we were left with were mindless grindfests without consequences... but of course, that is only my opinion.
Just for fun and grins I went and looked at how many people play PvP centric games vs PvE centric games over time. (Please note, the Asian market skews this way to PvP as well)
1997 PvP 100% (75,000) PvE 0% (0) (UO Released)
1998 PvP 100% (125,862) PvE 0% (0) (Lineage 1 Released)
1999 PvP 84% (1,150,000) PvE 16% (211,000) (EQ 1 & AC Released)
2000 PvP 84% (2,236,036) PvE 16% (429,000)
2001 PvP 79% (2,858,069) PvE 21% (782,732) (AC & DAOC)
2002 PvP 74% (3,125,853) PvE 26% (1,123,145) (Runescape, FFXI & AC2)
2003 PvP 70% (4,515,312) PvE 30% (1,930,957) (Shadowbane, EVE, PS, 2nd Life, SWG & Lineage 2)
2004 PvP 59% (4,430,791) PvE 41% (3,024,520) (CoH, EQ2 & WoW)
2005 PvP 34% (4,059,091) PvE 66% (8,001,801)
2006 PvP 20% (2,730,886) PvE 80% (10,790,601) (D&DO)
2007 PvP 15% (2,372,480) PvE 85% (13,528,074) (LotRO & Tabula Rasa)
2008 PvP 14% (2,469,243) PvE 86% (15,118,173)
I understand why www.mmogchart.com included Lineage 1 and 2, both were in the western market, but only a tiny fraction of those subs were in the west, almost all of them were from Asia and it skews the numbers badly. (Even though in the end PvE is still massively large then PvP)
Here is the same data, minus Lineage 1 and 2.
1997 PvP 100% (75,000) PvE 0% (0)
1998 PvP 100% (125,862) PvE 0% (0)
1999 PvP 42% (150,000) PvE 58% (211,000)
2000 PvP 35% (235,000) PvE 65% (429,000)
2001 PvP 25% (256,200) PvE 75% (782,732)
2002 PvP 18% (250,000) PvE 82% (1,123,145)
2003 PvP 15% (344,992) PvE 85% (1,930,957)
2004 PvP 8% (280,219) PvE 92% (3,024,520)
2005 PvP 3% (240,367) PvE 97% (8,001,801)
2006 PvP 3% (286,413) PvE 97% (10,790,601)
2007 PvP 2% (309,747) PvE 98% (13,528,074)
2008 PvP 3% (406,510) PvE 97% (15,118,173)
What I take from this is that PvP does much better in Asia then in the West, and that there are a LOT more people who at least like a choice about PvP rather then being forced into open PvP. That and PvP in the west has been fighting over the same 300,000 - 400,000 subs for years now, while PvE is growing rapidly.
I.E. as someone else already said. Make your game Open PvP and you are going to be relegated to a nitch market in the west.
In a game that offers FFA PvP the holy trinity of carebear, PK, Anti-PK is just as important as the PvE trinity Of tank, dps and healer.
That is pretty much what the author is stating. She is not saying all games need PK or that all PvE are carebears. The author was just using terms everyone knows like a real gamer would do as well.
Without non-PvP focused players a FFA PvP game is just a FPS. It is not a MMO with a thriving community. A FFA PvP game requires all three play styles to be able to sustain itself.
Nobody cares about your individual anti-PvP agenda. Stay on topic and discuss what the Author was actually talking about.
In PvE the Tank provides agro control and damage soaking, The Healer provides the healing needed to keep everyone alive and the DPS provides the damage output to kill the monsters.
That's why that is called the Holy Trinity.
In PvP the Anti-PK provides some very limited protection to the Carebear allowing them to play the game. The Carebear provides the Anti-PK with a reason to exist. What does the PK provide?
What does the PK do for the Carebear? Sure if there were no PKs the Anti-PK would have no reason to exist. But in the PvE trinity all 3 provide something the other two need.
(Too Long Did Not Read Version)
Carbears get less NOTHING from PKs.
In PvE the Tank provides agro control and damage soaking, The Healer provides the healing needed to keep everyone alive and the DPS provides the damage output to kill the monsters.
That's why that is called the Holy Trinity.
In PvP the Anti-PK provides some very limited protection to the Carebear allowing them to play the game. The Carebear provides the Anti-PK with a reason to exist. What does the PK provide?
What does the PK do for the Carebear? Sure if there were no PKs the Anti-PK would have no reason to exist. But in the PvE trinity all 3 provide something the other two need.
(Too Long Did Not Read Version)
Carbears get less NOTHING from PKs.
Imo you are sorely mistaken. Carebears in most games with open pvp are the crafters/gatherers/rare mob killers or whatever nets them profit in the end. As in, carebears want to make profit with minimized risk. Of course in open pvp care bears will have more risk than in close pvp, but in open pvp (if well implemented) carebears should be in for more profit than in closed pvp.
Lets say people can be looted if they die. If this is the case, all the PKers provide the carebears with a constant stream of customers for newly crafted items for instance. If items slowly decay on player death with no or limited repair options, carebears will again profit from more item sales.
Imo, if you play for instance WoW and just do it for the endgame raids, you might aswell play some single player game with multiplayer options for cooperative mode. You are not in fact playing an MMO in a world where actions matter. Where is the room for the roles in mmoRpg if all everyone does is the same ? Is it not more fun to have the role of a business man where you have to manage the risk of getting robbed by hiring an amount of bodyguards (another role) suiting the amount of risk you deem yourself in, as opposed to playing a business man where success aka profit in the long run is a given thing, because time invested = more profit no matter if are a complete idiot at what you do.
So the reason a Carebear should play in FFA PvP is so he can make more money.... So the only role for Carebears in FFA PvP is crafting. Gotcha.
BTW, almost no Carebear wants that role. Wheee I get to spend a hour hiring guards, spend a hour or two walking around the land collecting mats. Then back to the city where I can make the items for another hour or so. WOW what a thrilling game session, that sure beats questing or doing a dungeon crawl.
Oh and the guards... I'm sure they wont eat the bulk of your profits, or if they don't what are the odd's they will just rob you anyway?
Sorry the Carebear role you are talking about is so slim as to almost not exist. All you have done is pointed out how much the PKers and Anti-PKers need Carebears, but have still not given a reason they need the PKers.
(Oh sure I am sure out of every 1,000 or so Carbear players 1 will find that fun. After all look at all the accountants in the world)
I disagree, the carebears do get something from the pks, they get excitement! and high dose of adrenilan rush ..... something they cant get from a normal mob.
I was there and hated pks so much i went anti pk. I got revenge..... I was in a guild that would set traps for pks just to kill them,was so much fun letting that lone miner mined away while we sat and waited for the pks to show up only for us to come out of hiding and slaughter him sending him to days of stat loss lol.
So i do think the article was right on the money they all 3 need each other to make a good pvp game flow correctly. And what does the carebear get without the pks? boring mind numbing grinding been there for many years now. Sure they get peace and no worries of being pked, but they also miss that rush.
I feel carebears while most of my friends are just that are missing a huge part of the reason we play games online together. It's the fight of human mind and skill vs human mind and skill.
The article was spot on and for thoughs of you that did not get it, you obviously were not there to experience it first hand.
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek
and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
Ironically, all you are saying is that you were not having fun playing in a FFA PvP game so you became a Anti-PK.
So what the game gave you was it made you change from your preferred play style of the time (Carebear) and made you become a Anti-PK.
Once more. PKers need Carebears, Anti-PKers need Carebears. But Carebears do not need PKers.
What about some of us players who enjoy living in the "wild west" atmosphere? Always having to look over your shoulder is what makes the game fun for some people.
MO is trying to tap a market that has more potential to grow I believe. Everyone who plays a MMOG today didn't play in 1997 when UO was released, the market obviously grew. This wild wild west version of an MMO has been tried in Darkfall (was is successful?), obviously it was poorly done. Hopefully MO can get it right.
The guild I belong to, Shadowclan, has been waiting years for a quality game. We were huge in UO, huge in Shadowbane, as well as DAOC, and maybe we will get to enjoy MO - if the developers can work some magic and make a quality game.
Play a role! Shadowclan
So the reason a Carebear should play in FFA PvP is so he can make more money.... So the only role for Carebears in FFA PvP is crafting. Gotcha.
BTW, almost no Carebear wants that role. Wheee I get to spend a hour hiring guards, spend a hour or two walking around the land collecting mats. Then back to the city where I can make the items for another hour or so. WOW what a thrilling game session, that sure beats questing or doing a dungeon crawl.
Oh and the guards... I'm sure they wont eat the bulk of your profits, or if they don't what are the odd's they will just rob you anyway?
Sorry the Carebear role you are talking about is so slim as to almost not exist. All you have done is pointed out how much the PKers and Anti-PKers need Carebears, but have still not given a reason they need the PKers.
(Oh sure I am sure out of every 1,000 or so Carbear players 1 will find that fun. After all look at all the accountants in the world)
I guess my point of view stems from the fact that I would much hope for something sandbox like to be more mainstream because there is imo so much more potential in a game where players get to form the world and evolving a storyline on their own than there is in a themepark like WoW. Games like WoWs biggest problem is to me that there is basicly no content other than what developers put in, meaning that there is a finish line, which players will eventually reach making the game boring because you to do the exact same instance over and over again till the next time developers dish out an expansion or patch with extra dungeons.
This is something that a well done sandbox will not suffer from. If players can impact the game world enough while the game world has a real world like economy, the game will evolve on its own, with alliances, politics and what not.
In this case I will certainly maintain that the carebear needs the PKer and the anti-PKer. Take the economy in EvE (which I like and is supposed to be one of the strong points of the game), in this sort of economy practically everything can be crafted by players, and most things are actually only craftable by players. The normal economy rules of supply and demand rules this market, which makes it possible for people to have a lot of carebear roles regarding market/logistics/crafting/resource gathering. These roles make a lot of sense because the economy is thriving. Part of having a thriving economy is having people continually buy stuff. Continually buying stuff will not happen if someone can get the BiS and never worry about gear again. This type of world kills any sort of realistic economy. This in turn means that the carebear roles I mentioned above does not make for a viable career option in the world because they cant make any money.
The carebear types who like doing "instances" for loot for example, will have no reason to do this once they have the best gear from the hardest currently implemented instance in a game like WoW. In a game like EvE which has a real economy carebears in the best spaceship with the best items equipped still have a reason to do their "instances" because it will net them profit in terms of money. Money they would not have made if noone ever lost their items, because there would then not be enough buyers who wanted the carebears hard earned loot.
I realise that my current train of argument relies on the fact that I think a working economy is one of the most important factors in an MMO because it provides a very simple goal other than getting BiS from the hardest instance and waiting around till expansion day. It gives you the goal of getting more money by however means suits you. Theres a reason why Bill Gates and Donald Trump still go to work everyday even though they could retire themselves, their children and their whole damn family without any of them ever needing to worry about money. The reason is that having money allows you to shape the world around you, and the more you have the greater impact you can have on the said world. Which in turn parses well over to games; the struggle to get to the top of the world is the most fun on the journey there, not when you actually reach the top. Aka. its not fun to sit on BiS and have nothing to do. On the other hand in an EvE type game you will not reach the top meaning the game can potentially entertain you for a lot longer than any other game.
Take Donald Trump and Bill Gates again, these dudes are higher on the ladder towards world domination than both you and I (I should think that even though I dont know you ofc), but they still find it fun to make more money by being good at what they do.
Btw, I wont argue that it necessarily is PKers you need, you could have PvE mobs/bosses/whatever be very hard and pair that with item decay / loss on death to achieve the same effect regarding working economy. But this would mean exactly the same for the carebear as having PKers: They cant just go about their business with no risk.
I am by the way sorry about the long long throngs of letters I output to this thread. I am not yet very proficient in forum speak.
I do think some people are reading a little too broadly on a topic that's specific to unrestricted PvP sandbox games, although I suppose the sentence "All three groups need each other for the game's survival." doesn't help. A poor choice of words on my part, perhaps, but I think the needs of the carebears for the other groups depends largely on what the carebear's reason for being in the game is.
I've never been that far on the side of the carebear-camp to quite understand why carebears would still want to play an open PvP game - but they're still out there, and both anti-PKs and PKs need them to keep the game from going stale. I do think, as someone mentioned earlier, profit is a big thing for some of them - some players do honestly enjoy coming into a game and making a financial empire. A PvP game - especially one heavy on crafting, as MO seems to be inclined toward - definitely feeds their pockets, and feeds them well. What's a carebear crafter going to do with that kind of gear?
I think it's clear, looking at numbers, that carebears are making increasing migrations away from PvP games because they now have the options to do so. That's why games in the style of Mortal Online need to offer them carrots that will make them want to come play. For some people, that's graphics, story, roleplay, exploring, etc - all those great things a sandbox can offer. The carebear may not need the PvPers as much as they need the carebear, and that's where the game has to step in.
Also keep in mind that the community break down is a lot more complex than this; there's lines crossed between all groups, and many players belong to more than one camp, but in varying degrees.
Your argument is completely ridiculous. Comparing PKers in games to real world sociopaths and serial killers is utter lunacy. There is absolutely no proven correlation between player killing in game and real life psychosis. The vast majority of studies on the subject correlate aggressive behavior with any form of violence in video games (including PvE). By that logic, anyone who plays an MMORPG and kills thousands and thousands of NPCs to level is statistically more aggressive than a non-gamer.
RPGs are called role-playing games for a reason. We should be able to play the role of a villain if we so choose. Yet, because of whiners like you, we are not allowed to be anything but just another hero in a sea of identical cookie-cutter clones. Where is the excitement in a game if there is never any real challenge or conflict? Where are the politics when everyone is on the same side? Why is the concept of competition so strongly opposed by so many?
It has come to the point where MMORPGs are so mind-numbingly boring that the vast majority are not worth anyone's time. Games used to be much more exciting for EVERYONE involved because there were real consequences on the line. Carebears (or whatever you want to call them) have drained every ounce of risk and fear out of these games to the point where no one cares if they live or die. Think about it... there are virtually NO consequences for death in most modern MMORPGs. What is the point of even playing in a game like that... where there is no risk and no danger?? I honestly can't see how anyone finds it enjoyable.
Yes, I am asserting that the same players who demanded that there be no PKers are the very same ones who complained about every other difficult element of MMOs until all we were left with were mindless grindfests without consequences... but of course, that is only my opinion.
I was clearly talking about non-consentual pkscum, NOT consenting PvP. And read my entire post again (except for the last paragraph, which was clearly tongue-in-cheek, hence the </rant> ;-p). I'm talking about the griefers & pkscum who have become prevalent in any PvP game, not just mmos, because 'there is no honour among thieves' & all that shit.
Repeat after me boyz n girlz: PK <> PvP. PK <> PvP. PK <> PvP.
It is THEY who have ruined honourable PvP dueling & fair play, NOT us 'carebears'. And we're the only ones that seem to farking care lol!!! And the stronger the PvE objector/PvP proponent, the more likely they're just lying pkscum in reality I find.
If mmo devs had half a brain & stood back from the trees & looked at the forest with some simple data mining & analysis, they'd see what most of the rest of us see as plain as the noses on our faces:
1. Most mmo players are PvEers
2. PvP must be consentual, as anything else leads to major griefing, ganking & general asshattery
3. PvP, if universal, must be structured so there are real & lasting penalties commensurate with the crime. No pker would ever get away with the shit they pull in RL for very long. Sure, mmos are not simulations, but the time ppl spend is very real & precious to a lot of us. UO did this fairly well 10+ years ago, with player run laws. Why have we gone off the beaten path into free-for-all chaos since???
4. If we pay to play PvE, then that's what we want to play - not someone's else's antisocial griefing match! And we certainly don't want to be dragged down to their level. or they've won their little grief game. pkk == pk with an extra letter in the end.
Only GW has got all of these elements right to date. Take a leaf mmo makers.
And I got my kicks plenty from playing hardcore D2 back in the day. Nothing in any PvP mmo comes close today. Nothing. Try building/playing & equipping a char for months, only to have it all taken away, sometimes without even seeing the perp, in the blink of an eye! Lag & bugs were bad enough, but for Blizz to basically turn a blind eye to most of this was unforgiveable. Tell me I don't know about risk *guffaw*.
In any case, you sound like a 'respectable' PvPer, not out to urinate on anyone's parade just for the sake of it.. But ofr everyone of you, there are literally 100s if not 1000s of kiddies, antisocial wankers & other types of malcontents, who take out their life's problems on the majority of us who want to play PvE/coop, because that means only we are responsible for our failures & our own risk/fun/reward is in our own hands, as it should be. Here endeth the carebear lesson
.
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
Those figures are nowhere near accurate or meaningful. Just because a game has PvP (even open PvP), does NOT mean most of the players are there to PvP/PK others. A lot of us in the early days of UO & EQ (even M59 before that), right up to EVE today, were/are in it to build communities, for the teamplay, coop & social aspects & to help others with the game.
If you were able to take a true statistical snapshot of how many PvPers there are in any one mainstream western mmo ever, I would be almost certain the number never went over 10%, & only a fraction of that for pkscum. (Not counting Asian-specific mmos of course, which I don't play for this very reason, though I have tried a few).
So, why do we even bother with PvP to satiate the vast minority of adrenaline junkies out there? Beats me. Let them play fps gankfests like camperstrike or whatnot & leave the rest of us to build safe & fun virtual worlds & communities I say!
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
No it wouldn't. The risk would/could stil be calculated, & you could always do something else in most cases if you didn't want to take that risk. A pkscum coming out of nowhere, twinked up to the eyeballs with 1-shot kill equipment, most certainly is NOT a risk you can anticipate, mitigate or control in any way, while you're harvesting crafting components say, or already down to 1/4 life fighting some tough mobs. In my experience, 1% of PvPers out there are 'honourable' duelers & consentual PvPers. Thanks WoW for helping to drop that figure a few percentage points in the last 5 years! ;-p
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
As a fairly vocal carebear of the modern UO, I agree with the article up a point. Pure PvP-enabled will generally push people away who aren't having success (it's hard to maintain the illusion of success against a good trash-talker). Pure PvE will push away people who get bored once they've beaten everything once and know they can do it again. Having options is very healthy and one should not underestimate the value of the moral affirmation of choosing anew each day how you want to live in the world.
However, seeing the world as a triad of playstyles (PK/anti-PK/carebear) requires the carebear to spend time "being the mongbat" - and in UO this is done by placing rewards in PvP areas so that if I will not risk being pwned on the battlefield, I'll be pwned in the game's economy. It works up to a point, but the problem is that people who cannot be lured or threatened across the line can not only run away to a non-PvP area, they can also run away to another game, so there's a limit to how much arm-twisting can be done. And I feel that's where the article's model starts to break down.
Leave the carebears feeling like second-class citizens and they start to leave. Give the PKers nothing but other hardened PKers and they lose the sense of power that motivates them. Throw them both a bone and either the fur flies like wet cats tied up in a bag or they start to behave like completely separate communities playing separate games, subdividing again into even finer subcultures. It's a difficult balancing act.
No it wouldn't. The risk would/could stil be calculated, & you could always do something else in most cases if you didn't want to take that risk. A pkscum coming out of nowhere, twinked up to the eyeballs with 1-shot kill equipment, most certainly is NOT a risk you can anticipate, mitigate or control in any way, while you're harvesting crafting components say, or already down to 1/4 life fighting some tough mobs. In my experience, 1% of PvPers out there are 'honourable' duelers & consentual PvPers. Thanks WoW for helping to drop that figure a few percentage points in the last 5 years! ;-p
Risk cant always be calculated. It can in most of todays games, but there is no reason that it should be so other than that carebears want to know they are able to succeed on a venture even before they undertake said adventure.
You could have a game where a dungeon didnt feature the same boss/mobs everytime, and where the different bosses/mobs didnt do exactly the same tactics everytime. Not knowing what the boss is going to do to you and what attacks he will do could very much be tuned to mean that sometimes people would need to try and escape due to getting a too hard boss, and even though realising you cant take this particular boss with this particular group, you might still be certain to loose 1-2 of your party unless you execute your escape flawlessly. Of course players could then do a dungeon where the difficulty range was so small that they could do all varieties of the bosses/mobs in the dungeon, but this should of course yield so little reward that you will seriously consider doing the harder dungeons even though you might cash in a loss in profit instead of a win.
Also I dont agree that you cant manage the risk of a ganker. If the penalty for being ganked is too high for you, you should either stay away from where you get ganked, or gather likeminded individuals into a guild/make alliances or whatever and make a place for yourselves and your friends within the game world, where some of your friends get a kick out killing the potential gankers that enter your territory, and you thereby get to gather resources or whatever in this territory reasonably free of danger. Of course you can still get ganked, but this ganker should then be running a big risk of running into your big friends who will tear him a new one.
Things like this require a sandbox though. Your only option in a game like WoW is to get a full party with you while you run around gathering herbs. Thats just not something thats gonna happen ever. It could only happen if WoW suddenly decided herbs/whatever were really important, and at the same time made you face harsh penalties for being ganked. People would certainly help each other out to avoid this more in this case.
I have a strict vision on this topic. And I believe I am thus classified as a "Carebear". You see, I am all for PvP. But am against PK. A subtle, yet important difference there.
PvP can be fun. Why? Consent. Either though mutual "Duel" agreements, "raising the flag", clan wars or just entering designated Player Combat areas. Why is it fun? Because when you die, you know why. You know who is to blame, you know exactly what the reasons are that made you find yourself face down in a ditch, debuffed, looted and possibly liptoned. Were it your opponent's skills/spells/gear, lag, your going AFK, or just missing a button press. You died, and you have no-one to blame but yourself.
PK, however. Can happen even during PvP. You see, I count "griefing" into PK. That being... camping the hospital building to kill you as soon as you walk out the door, for instance. But also, it can be for no reason but "kicks". You are, looting some rare stuff that you need, and I mean NEED, in a hard to reach spot. There's plenty for everyone who are there. And this guy walks up and kills you when you are "stunned" in the looting mechanic (whatever that may be, animation, pop-up window, etc). He did it for kicks. Ok, sure, he might say it's because he wanted more. But I did say there was plenty. Or then when you are AFK. Getting a fresh drink, answering the door, letting the dog out, whatever it may be, however short time. You may come back and find yourself dead.
Bad? Yes. Why? Because you grow frustrated. Why? Because you are not to blame. Someone else is. You go frustrated, even angry that for some ridiculous reason, you just lost some very rare loot, a lot of experience points, stats. Or just got set back by half a map. Happens too often, you leave. You payed to have fun, you play to have fun, and thus help others have fun too, with you. You did not pay, to let others leech fun off you. To be the butt end of their jokes or actions.
So, with that said. And been through a number of MMO's and their PvP systems. I have to say that PvP in an MMO works only IF, it is designed in from the start. Accomodated, merged. Not forced, not illogical. But goes with the lore and the systems. A part of the game, not a slapped on feature like it is in the grand majority of games. This has caused me to develop a view that the BEST PvP is to be had in games that only FOR PvP. Sadly, such games are more often than not, shooters. Now I love some FPS mayhem like any other bloke. I can spend just as much time playing round and round, campaign after campaign, in any multiplayer shooter, as I can spend looting rats, and doing fetch quests. They just tend to lack the depth of story that MMO's do. So, I as a Carebear. Am destined to forever swing between games, like a perpetual pendulum of indecision, trying to find a fix for the current addiction of the hour.
I'd like to add this small paragraph to explain exactly just why MMO's aren't really suited for PvP. It's a system that, in some form, every MMO out today has. There are a few that are coming out, using a new system, better suited for PvP. The system I am talking about, are levels. What a shooter has, and what makes it so much more appealing for PvP, is just how level the playing field is. The winner in a fight is chosen by the conditions. Their weapons for the environment, their numbers for that of the enemy. Their willingness to work together and communication. In an MMO, a winner, is more often than not, chosen by your level. In PvE, the level system is one of the best. It adds a feel of progression. But in PvP, all it does is unreasonably tip the balance to the side with players who ground (I do believe this is the past form for grind) or just played more, to each superiority through a mathematical system that simply adds to a player's total health pool and damage dealt. For some reason, the higher level you are, the more sharper your sword becomes. Why is that? No, really. A sword, is a sword, is a sword.
*ding ding ding* we have a winner. excellent summary.
My Signature
*ding ding ding* we have a winner. excellent summary.
Best post ever.
Both of these paragraphs I agree on, without agreeing that PvP isnt suited for MMOs. FPS or the is way better for matching your skills against another player because as you say theres no difference in gear or levels. This is the reason why a real good sandbox game imo should not feature what most people think of when we say levels. Take EvE online for example, in this game you will surely gain advantages due to having been in the game a long time and trained a lot of skills. These do make the playing field uneven, but not to the point where they make player skill not matter. A player who brings the wrong setup to the fight will loose even if he has far superior skills trained on his character, and his opponent brought the right setup. Also being the equivalent of epic equipped lvl 80 in EvE doesnt mean that 2-3 well coordinated lvl 10s who brought the right setup and gear to take you down cant do so.
Im saying that PvP as a skill match against another human doesnt suit the average MMO, but some MMOs could(and do) very much feature character skill progression that makes for an RPG sort of feel, without making you need to jump on the 10 hour grind a day epics train if you want to stand a chance of killing even the worst noob who has done that train already and therefore is sitting on BiS items.