it depends on the mmo ild say. some IPs and game developers have done very well with open pvp and others have done well in pve, and both sides have also failed at crossing to the other (eq1 pvp/eve pve persay)
NPC's usually have a pattern or a certain way that they can be defeated. Stop complaining and just deal with the PvP folks. If you're complaining about getting quest ganked and what not, then you suck and have no problem solving skills. Or skills period.
Yeah, no offense to the quoted person in particular...but this is the typical PvP player mindset.
IMO there is no such thing as "skills" in MMO PvP. Most players will hide and wait for you to be engaged with another player or an NPC to attack, or attack when your already seriously low on health, or only attack if they are 8+ levels higher than you where they know they couldn't possibly lose, or only attack when the numbers are stacked in there favor (3+ on 1). Their is no skill involved, only moments of opportunity, which is what PvP is. But to say it's skill? I guess it could depend on the game that is incorporating the PvP, but I know I personally haven't seen an MMO that has a system good enough to truly be able to say it depends on a players skill with said class to be good, and not as much on the gear the character is wearing, the random dice rolls of hits or misses, or simply blind luck.
Also, personally, I don't feel fighting a player is that much less predictable than an NPC tbh. Most players will find a pattern they are comfortable with, or is the "Flavor build of the week" and stick with it. It doesn't take many times fighting any particular class, etc that you don't know what to expect really. Considering most of the scenarios above as well that happen a majority of the time on PvP oriented MMO's, where is the skill?
And before the "Carebear" comments roll in, I have played EVE off and on now for 3 years, and have done PvP in several other MMO's, so I am not wet behind the ears to it and don't simply "suck at it". To me, until a system is thought of and incorporated that truly allows for challenge and skill to be a factor, PvP is pointless other than to feel important on your respective server and have e-fame, or to simply be a jerk without any real reprecussions befalling you because you can unlike in RL. Not all PvP players are like this, but from personal experience, the majority has been. There IS a difference between enjoying competitiveness with other players and the excitement of a close fight or a decisive win over a worthy opponent and simply doing some of the above mentioned things simply to be a jerk and attempt to show everyone else how cool and great you are by winning meaningless easy fights through lame and lopsided tactics.
But back on the subject, personally I feel PvP doesn't belong as an afterthought in a PvE heavy MMO just to attract more players/money. It tends to ruin it for one side or the other because they struggle to make it balanced for the life of the game most of the time, leading to complaining about "X" class, etc, which in turn throws off many other elements of the game until there is a bigger mess. I just feel that someone needs to man up, pick a desired niche group and run with it. Trying to appeal to everyone doesn't always work out. I think we have all seen a slew of MMO's recently that pretty much show that to be true...well, on top of simply rushing the product out the door too soon too.
I believe many people would play a 100% PVE MMO. Actually, many people that play WoW are 100% PVE'ers. They just hang out with their friends, go fight some critters and do raids / dungeons.
As for me, I prefer PvP too. I do believe there is a lot of skill that can take place in PvP, but there is skill overall playing a game. Having skill in PvE and PvP is difficult for many people. I always enjoyed playing a very well rounded character and hanging out with people who were also very well rounded, but not full of themselves. Talking crap in a battle is one thing, but just walking around putting down people is another, unfortunately a mindset so many PvP'ers seem to have. Relax, save it for the field. LOL
Well obviously I'm a PvP'er, but I never got those douche bags that rolled up on you several levels ahead AND while you were in the middle of a kill just roll up and gank you. Then taunt you. My suspicions is that it's some 11 year old who spends a lot of time at home who doesn't know the difference from a legit kill and being a fktarded coward because players his/her level pwn him all the time. I guess even little ones as skill-less as a lot of them are, still need to feel a sense of some victory. Until you go and grab your main.
As a matter of fact, I don't think many players like pvp in games you can pay real money to get substantial advantages over players who don't play. There are always mysterious players showing up pvping in the best gear the games offer but yet you never see them leveling anywhere. I am not a fool to spend any money to pvp in such games where I can only pay to lose.
I've wiped the floor with people better geared than me. Most of those people get the gear but never really spend time on their class therefore having no PvP skills. But hell.....they probably paid for the leveling too.
Well obviously I'm a PvP'er, but I never got those douche bags that rolled up on you several levels ahead AND while you were in the middle of a kill just roll up and gank you. Then taunt you. My suspicions is that it's some 11 year old who spends a lot of time at home who doesn't know the difference from a legit kill and being a fktarded coward because players his/her level pwn him all the time. I guess even little ones as skill-less as a lot of them are, still need to feel a sense of some victory. Until you go and grab your main.
This proves a point though. Let's assume that most PvP'ers are not like the ass-hat you describe. Undeniably, a few of them are. That means that some PvP'ers are essentially, a-holes. Now, of course, some PvE'ers are as well. But when you PvP, you have to interact with other players, and inevitably, you will meet up with some of these a-holes. When I PvE, at least soloing, I never have to interact with those jerks.
I have nothing against PvP, I've even been known to enjoy it, and I never shy away from a game that has PvP as part of the mix.
That said, why I'd happily play a PvE only MMO is so that I wouldn't have to deal with being ganked, quest-givers being slaughtered and spawn-camped for hours on end, and all the other annoyances that go along with a PvP system. Not because all PvP players are asshats (because they aren't), but because some are and there doesn't seem to be a game with PvP in it out there that's free of griefers.
On the hate front, I think a lot of it stems from people wanting different things from a game and feeling that what they want is a right, and anyone asking for anything else, or happy to play the game as it is, is a carebear/griefer. Which is rather silly.
There's a bit of a problem these days with players being unwilling to play a game as is, without screaming from the rooftops about how it should have MOAR PvP AND FULL LOOTZ or NO PVP AND MOAR EPIK RAIDZZ or whatever side of the debate they fall on.
My philosophy has always been to find a game that I enjoy playing and not try to make it into anything other than the game it is, to explore it, try a bit of all it has to offer, and play only as long as it keeps me happy. If I leave a game, I see no reason to announce why I did to the world. To approach a game any other way is completely illogical and leads to nerdrage and forum PvP where everyone else looks askance at the guy on the soapbox claiming the game is fail because it didn't have full looting or it didn't have enough raids yet or whatever.
Differing playstyles are just that, differing, there are enough games out there for both crowds without every new game that comes out being yelled at by players to shoehorn in something that wasn't part of the plan but that some loud forum-goers are baying for. And that applies to both sides of the debate.
Originally posted by Murashu Originally posted by popinjay
p.s. Goldbuying in a PvE game isn't an issue, friend. If another PvEer buys gold, that does nothing to affect my ACTUAL gameplay. Nor does it inhibit what I personally am able to do as I am fighting mobs; not people.
But really quick to address a quick point as a side; in a PvP game, goldbuying is a gamekiller. Why? I hope you don't really need me to explain to you why it's an issue in that game and not PvE.
Gold-buying in any type of game can have negative impacts on the economy, even PvE.
True, but if people buy gold in a PvE game, that doesn't make the mobs harder to kill.. if you follow what I'm saying.. or have been trying to say.
When people buy gold in a PvP game, it makes the opponent's harder to kill.
I can't believe I actually had to write that out, lol.
p.s. Goldbuying in a PvE game isn't an issue, friend. If another PvEer buys gold, that does nothing to affect my ACTUAL gameplay. Nor does it inhibit what I personally am able to do as I am fighting mobs; not people.
But really quick to address a quick point as a side; in a PvP game, goldbuying is a gamekiller. Why? I hope you don't really need me to explain to you why it's an issue in that game and not PvE.
Gold-buying in any type of game can have negative impacts on the economy, even PvE.
True, but if people buy gold in a PvE game, that doesn't make the mobs harder to kill.. if you follow what I'm saying.. or have been trying to say.
When people buy gold in a PvP game, it makes the opponent's harder to kill.
I can't believe I actually had to write that out, lol.
Technically, it can. If the prices of the in game money is driven up because of the poor economy due to gold-buying (which in turn means gold farmers have demand, thus a problem with gold farmers as well), you may not be able to buy the equipment to kill those mobs. That means those mobs are harder to kill than if there were a normal economy without the influence of gold buyers/sellers. Not by damage output from the mobs, but damage received/given by you over time because of your inability to purchase decent items. This is not even including run ins with bot farmers/gold farmers taking up your mobs, the increase of time you have to spend farming for money, etc.
Murashu is correct in saying it has negative impacts on any game, including PvE only games. We understand what you're saying, I promise.
---
In response to the original post and adding to the many, I played FFXI and it was and still has been the most fun I've had in any game to date. It was a soul sucking, life leeching type of game back then which is why I stopped playing it and am currently anticipating FFXIV. The fact that there is little to no PvP has no bearing on the fun factor for me. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy killing in PvP quite immensely! But as others have stated, it usually has very little reward attached to it other than epeen. Something I really have no use of =P
They are the minority .. we are the majority,, despite the fact that almost EVERY MMO on this site features pvp in some form or fashion. There are no true statistics to measure which in fact has the greater population. But PvE'rs will cling to this unproven claim until the end of time.
Quite mistaken here.. reminds me of people who lived their whole lives in the city think things are a certain way, or that milk comes from supermarkets.
The largest MMO in the gaming communtiy is World of Warcraft. That game has more players than the top 10 games behind it.
The largest section makeup of World of Warcraft players are casuals. They also don't play PvP as the main focus of the game. They more than likely didn't go through Walmart or Bestbuy looking for a PvP game, but more for something with some type of adventure angle. The majority of them are PvE people who are into the emotes, community, small game playing. Not major raiding or major PvP.
I really think you need to try some other MMOs because even those with PvP in "some form or fashion" don't have tons playing the PvP or would EVER consider themselves PvP players. This may change sometime if that untapped FPS market starts to play online but right now, the majority of gamers are of the WoW variety.
I have no idea why PvP people continue to think they are the majority of gaming players.
I disagree with your assumption simply because you haven't seen one, that no statistics can measure which type of gamer is more prevalent. There have been cross-sectional studies on WoW players and other types of MMOs in general as to age, job, gender, time played, method preferred, etc by several people that can be looked up with Google.
Originally posted by belltiara67 Originally posted by popinjay
Originally posted by Murashu
Originally posted by popinjay
p.s. Goldbuying in a PvE game isn't an issue, friend. If another PvEer buys gold, that does nothing to affect my ACTUAL gameplay. Nor does it inhibit what I personally am able to do as I am fighting mobs; not people.
But really quick to address a quick point as a side; in a PvP game, goldbuying is a gamekiller. Why? I hope you don't really need me to explain to you why it's an issue in that game and not PvE.
Gold-buying in any type of game can have negative impacts on the economy, even PvE.
True, but if people buy gold in a PvE game, that doesn't make the mobs harder to kill.. if you follow what I'm saying.. or have been trying to say.
When people buy gold in a PvP game, it makes the opponent's harder to kill.
I can't believe I actually had to write that out, lol.
Technically, it can. If the prices of the in game money is driven up because of the poor economy due to gold-buying (which in turn means gold farmers have demand, thus a problem with gold farmers as well), you may not be able to buy the equipment to kill those mobs. That means those mobs are harder to kill than if there were a normal economy without the influence of gold buyers/sellers. Not by damage output from the mobs, but damage received/given by you over time because of your inability to purchase decent items. This is not even including run ins with bot farmers/gold farmers taking up your mobs, the increase of time you have to spend farming for money, etc. Murashu is correct in saying it has negative impacts on any game, including PvE only games. We understand what you're saying, I promise. --- In response to the original post and adding to the many, I played FFXI and it was and still has been the most fun I've had in any game to date. It was a soul sucking, life leeching type of game back then which is why I stopped playing it and am currently anticipating FFXIV. The fact that there is little to no PvP has no bearing on the fun factor for me. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy killing in PvP quite immensely! But as others have stated, it usually has very little reward attached to it other than epeen. Something I really have no use of =P
Technically, anything is technical. But we aren't discussing "technicalities". What would be the point in that? Everything has a technicality but thats' not the main discussion.
No one is disputing gold affects economies in game. So that said, you have a PvP game and a PvE game.
In the PvE game, goldsellers/buying mess up the economy. If you are a player, you can still go out and farm whatever you need solo or with other people in your guild and you don't buy anything at all. Since you have your own crafters and harversters, you are IMMUNE to what goldsellers and buyers do, kind of like how a person who can fix their own car doesn't care that mechanics make $50/hour.. The mobs are no less easier or harder to actually KILL (see: gamePLAY) whether another person buys gold or not. It does not affect your play or your guilds/friends play because you can farm.
In a PvP game, same goldsellers/buyers... now you have people like in AION with +10 weapons in each hand, gold gear they buy off the broker, and the most expensive stigmas (rare special skills) that cost millions and are difficult to get. So you meet these cheaters on the battlefield one on one and get trounced. Now when enough people who take pride in their PvP leet skills keep getting killed, they WILL buy gold. They will use hacks because YOU are the mob, they are trying to kill. This is the main part of PvP and the gold directly affects that play. Its not on an even field.
So you don't want to buy gold in a PvP game and go farm. Well, if its an open PvP zone, those same cheaters are the ones ganking you while you are farming. Now they directly affect your ability to farm and get better gear to compete.
In short, PvP gold makes an uneven playing field where humans fighting each other are not equal, and that ruins the spirit of the game since that's the main goal; killing other people.
In a PvE game, gold only makes someone who wants to collect gold gear have shinier stuff but it doesn't hinder another person's ability to kill a mob or farm for their own gear. Those wanting to play fair aren't killed and ganked while trying to play the game as the maker's intended it to be played.
<snip> In the PvE game, goldsellers/buying mess up the economy. If you are a player, you can still go out and farm whatever you need solo or with other people in your guild and you don't buy anything at all. Since you have your own crafters and harversters, you are IMMUNE to what goldsellers and buyers do, kind of like how a person who can fix their own car doesn't care that mechanics make $50/hour.. The mobs are no less easier or harder to actually KILL (see: gamePLAY) whether another person buys gold or not. It does not affect your play or your guilds/friends play because you can farm.
<snip>
In a PvE game, gold only makes someone who wants to collect gold gear have shinier stuff but it doesn't hinder another person's ability to kill a mob or farm for their own gear. Those wanting to play fair aren't killed and ganked while trying to play the game as the maker's intended it to be played.
Not wishing to stir the pot too much on this one, but....in a PvE game if a player is in a guild and goes to a gold-buying site...it can affect their guild, and thereby other players. As in, account gets hacked, guild bank gets emptied. Everyone in the guild suffers.
Sure, ideally, people would be farming everything, because they can ( as you said) - but we all know that some people are lazy and want the instant gratification of getting whatever it is they are farming for without the effort of actually farming it. Or (and this argument tends to pop up a lot) they don't have "time" to farm, and they want to have the same "options" in game as everyone else (urr, they do, but anyway) so they buy gold in order to have the same level of "fun" as they think everyone else has, only without the graft.
The gold-selling market is huge, it's pretty clear that not only PvP-ers buy gold. I bet there's a pretty good market for EQ plat and LOTRO gold out there. There's no good reason for buying gold, ever, but both sides do it, and it affects everyone's game in the long run.
Originally posted by Hopscotch73 Originally posted by popinjay <snip> In the PvE game, goldsellers/buying mess up the economy. If you are a player, you can still go out and farm whatever you need solo or with other people in your guild and you don't buy anything at all. Since you have your own crafters and harversters, you are IMMUNE to what goldsellers and buyers do, kind of like how a person who can fix their own car doesn't care that mechanics make $50/hour.. The mobs are no less easier or harder to actually KILL (see: gamePLAY) whether another person buys gold or not. It does not affect your play or your guilds/friends play because you can farm.
<snip> In a PvE game, gold only makes someone who wants to collect gold gear have shinier stuff but it doesn't hinder another person's ability to kill a mob or farm for their own gear. Those wanting to play fair aren't killed and ganked while trying to play the game as the maker's intended it to be played.
Not wishing to stir the pot too much on this one, but....in a PvE game if a player is in a guild and goes to a gold-buying site...it can affect their guild, and thereby other players. As in, account gets hacked, guild bank gets emptied. Everyone in the guild suffers.
Sure, ideally, people would be farming everything, because they can ( as you said) - but we all know that some people are lazy and want the instant gratification of getting whatever it is they are farming for without the effort of actually farming it. Or (and this argument tends to pop up a lot) they don't have "time" to farm, and they want to have the same "options" in game as everyone else (urr, they do, but anyway) so they buy gold in order to have the same level of "fun" as they think everyone else has, only without the graft.
The gold-selling market is huge, it's pretty clear that not only PvP-ers buy gold. I bet there's a pretty good market for EQ plat and LOTRO gold out there. There's no good reason for buying gold, ever, but both sides do it, and it affects everyone's game in the long run.
I'm no fan of PvP, but he's right. Gil-selling was a big problem in FFXI, which has essentially no PvP, until Square-Enix got really serious about cracking down on it. Even with massive crackdowns, it still exists.
Technically, anything is technical. But we aren't discussing "technicalities". What would be the point in that? Everything has a technicality but thats' not the main discussion.
No one is disputing gold affects economies in game. So that said, you have a PvP game and a PvE game.
In the PvE game, goldsellers/buying mess up the economy. If you are a player, you can still go out and farm whatever you need solo or with other people in your guild and you don't buy anything at all. Since you have your own crafters and harversters, you are IMMUNE to what goldsellers and buyers do, kind of like how a person who can fix their own car doesn't care that mechanics make $50/hour.. The mobs are no less easier or harder to actually KILL (see: gamePLAY) whether another person buys gold or not. It does not affect your play or your guilds/friends play because you can farm.
In a PvP game, same goldsellers/buyers... now you have people like in AION with +10 weapons in each hand, gold gear they buy off the broker, and the most expensive stigmas (rare special skills) that cost millions and are difficult to get. So you meet these cheaters on the battlefield one on one and get trounced. Now when enough people who take pride in their PvP leet skills keep getting killed, they WILL buy gold. They will use hacks because YOU are the mob, they are trying to kill. This is the main part of PvP and the gold directly affects that play. Its not on an even field.
So you don't want to buy gold in a PvP game and go farm. Well, if its an open PvP zone, those same cheaters are the ones ganking you while you are farming. Now they directly affect your ability to farm and get better gear to compete.
In short, PvP gold makes an uneven playing field where humans fighting each other are not equal, and that ruins the spirit of the game since that's the main goal; killing other people.
In a PvE game, gold only makes someone who wants to collect gold gear have shinier stuff but it doesn't hinder another person's ability to kill a mob or farm for their own gear. Those wanting to play fair aren't killed and ganked while trying to play the game as the maker's intended it to be played.
As a pvper, if gold selling/buying affected gameplay as massivey as you described it does in Aion, I would quit. I played Aion for a very short time, so i can't comment on the game, or how its going..
If the developers of the game allow such a massive gamebreaking issue to exist, shame on them.
edit:
Also, please don't think you know me well enough to know what I would do in a game. I take pride in my "leet " PvP skills, but i wouldn't do what you assume I would do in this post....
You certainly love to lump PvPers into one cheating, gold buying, hacking group, eh?
"Goldbuying in a PvE game isn't an issue, friend. If another PvEer buys gold, that does nothing to affect my ACTUAL gameplay. Nor does it inhibit what I personally am able to do as I am fighting mobs; not people"
I have to disagree with that statement. Gold buying has a huge unseen affect on pve games. It jacks up all the prices in the game because there is far more cash available in the economy.
Rarely do I find all the items I need through questing, I almost always buy things off the economy and the gold available to me does not increase yet I have to deal with the higher prices.
The largest MMO in the gaming communtiy is World of Warcraft. That game has more players than the top 10 games behind it. I really think you need to try some other MMOs because even those with PvP in "some form or fashion" don't have tons playing the PvP or would EVER consider themselves PvP players. This may change sometime if that untapped FPS market starts to play online but right now, the majority of gamers are of the WoW variety.
I have no idea why PvP people continue to think they are the majority of gaming players. I disagree with your assumption simply because you haven't seen one, that no statistics can measure which type of gamer is more prevalent. There have been cross-sectional studies on WoW players and other types of MMOs in general as to age, job, gender, time played, method preferred, etc by several people that can be looked up with Google.
I never said PvP players were the majority. I disagree with the assumption that PvE players are. I personally, believe that most people fall somewhere in the " I pve and pvp category." How many people pvp really depends on how good the game has designed it's pvp conflict/mechanics.
I've played DaoC, WaR, CoX, EvE, SWG, Guild Wars, even other online games such at Battleforge, and there are a lot of people who do PvP. City of Heroes lost a large portion of their playerbase with Issue 10, I think it's issue 10, when they nerfed pvp ability to some degree. Faulty assumption on your part about my game history. Should we go back to the days of early video games like Defender and Asteroids where people competed against each other for high score?
Even with statistics pulled off a Google search, you'd still only have a fraction of the people who play MMO's listed, as it's very unlikely that any program or data mining has pulled every player's stats from every MMO to see who has pvp'd or not. What you can see however is almost every MMO that is coming out, even online console games that feature PvP gameplay. I just guess that Call of Duty and Halo were huge hits for their pve encounters. Even if those particular two are FPS it shows that there are a lot of people who like to PVP. Warhammer's initial success in box sales, WoW adding pvp content continually, EvE, and the other dozen MMO's on the horizon only leads to the hypothesis that the pvp playerbase is larger than you think.
In the PvE game, goldsellers/buying mess up the economy. If you are a player, you can still go out and farm whatever you need solo or with other people in your guild and you don't buy anything at all. Since you have your own crafters and harversters, you are IMMUNE to what goldsellers and buyers do, kind of like how a person who can fix their own car doesn't care that mechanics make $50/hour.. The mobs are no less easier or harder to actually KILL (see: gamePLAY) whether another person buys gold or not. It does not affect your play or your guilds/friends play because you can farm.
In a PvP game, same goldsellers/buyers... now you have people like in AION with +10 weapons in each hand, gold gear they buy off the broker, and the most expensive stigmas (rare special skills) that cost millions and are difficult to get. So you meet these cheaters on the battlefield one on one and get trounced. Now when enough people who take pride in their PvP leet skills keep getting killed, they WILL buy gold. They will use hacks because YOU are the mob, they are trying to kill. This is the main part of PvP and the gold directly affects that play. Its not on an even field.
So you don't want to buy gold in a PvP game and go farm. Well, if its an open PvP zone, those same cheaters are the ones ganking you while you are farming. Now they directly affect your ability to farm and get better gear to compete.In short, PvP gold makes an uneven playing field where humans fighting each other are not equal, and that ruins the spirit of the game since that's the main goal; killing other people.
In a PvE game, gold only makes someone who wants to collect gold gear have shinier stuff but it doesn't hinder another person's ability to kill a mob or farm for their own gear. Those wanting to play fair aren't killed and ganked while trying to play the game as the maker's intended it to be played.
This is exactly correct. Gold buying in a PvE game only affects the prices on vendors/player auction houses. It doesn't affect the ability of people to get the items, just intrudes on their ability to buy the item cheaply without doing the content to actually get the item. I find this hilarious that any PVE player would gripe about this, since their whole argument is based on the actions of actually playing the game, beating the zone/mobs, enjoying the competition/difficulty of PVE.
In a PvP game, someone buying gold can twink themselves out without much effort. Then again, when I had max level characters in my games, I used to fund my lowbie toons with them. So either way, I don't have a problem with gold farming.. as long as encounters aren't on timed spawns where the gold farmers can camp the spots all day long like preventing the rest of the population the ability to get any item, similar to what happened in the early days of Trials of Atlantis.
Comments
I play for fun. I can play a PvE or PvP only game if it is fun enough.
Some kind of competition is fun however, if not PvP it should be something else to make the guilds compete with eachother.
There are many other ways to compete with other players than PvP, like sports, guilds could compete about money, resources and trade and a lot more.
PvP is fun however as long as you do it right so not having it forces you to make the game a little better. But as I said, as long as it is fun..
I doubt it. I wouldn't play an FFA PvP game, but on the other hand I get bored with PvE.
I like games that have both. The best design so far is DAoC with RvR.
Although I did enjoy playing City of Heroes before they added City of Villians.
I might play a great PvE game, but I'd feel something was missing.
I don't see how you can go wrong with adding RvR. The PvE players never have to PvP if they dont' want to.
This.
it depends on the mmo ild say. some IPs and game developers have done very well with open pvp and others have done well in pve, and both sides have also failed at crossing to the other (eq1 pvp/eve pve persay)
Yeah, no offense to the quoted person in particular...but this is the typical PvP player mindset.
IMO there is no such thing as "skills" in MMO PvP. Most players will hide and wait for you to be engaged with another player or an NPC to attack, or attack when your already seriously low on health, or only attack if they are 8+ levels higher than you where they know they couldn't possibly lose, or only attack when the numbers are stacked in there favor (3+ on 1). Their is no skill involved, only moments of opportunity, which is what PvP is. But to say it's skill? I guess it could depend on the game that is incorporating the PvP, but I know I personally haven't seen an MMO that has a system good enough to truly be able to say it depends on a players skill with said class to be good, and not as much on the gear the character is wearing, the random dice rolls of hits or misses, or simply blind luck.
Also, personally, I don't feel fighting a player is that much less predictable than an NPC tbh. Most players will find a pattern they are comfortable with, or is the "Flavor build of the week" and stick with it. It doesn't take many times fighting any particular class, etc that you don't know what to expect really. Considering most of the scenarios above as well that happen a majority of the time on PvP oriented MMO's, where is the skill?
And before the "Carebear" comments roll in, I have played EVE off and on now for 3 years, and have done PvP in several other MMO's, so I am not wet behind the ears to it and don't simply "suck at it". To me, until a system is thought of and incorporated that truly allows for challenge and skill to be a factor, PvP is pointless other than to feel important on your respective server and have e-fame, or to simply be a jerk without any real reprecussions befalling you because you can unlike in RL. Not all PvP players are like this, but from personal experience, the majority has been. There IS a difference between enjoying competitiveness with other players and the excitement of a close fight or a decisive win over a worthy opponent and simply doing some of the above mentioned things simply to be a jerk and attempt to show everyone else how cool and great you are by winning meaningless easy fights through lame and lopsided tactics.
But back on the subject, personally I feel PvP doesn't belong as an afterthought in a PvE heavy MMO just to attract more players/money. It tends to ruin it for one side or the other because they struggle to make it balanced for the life of the game most of the time, leading to complaining about "X" class, etc, which in turn throws off many other elements of the game until there is a bigger mess. I just feel that someone needs to man up, pick a desired niche group and run with it. Trying to appeal to everyone doesn't always work out. I think we have all seen a slew of MMO's recently that pretty much show that to be true...well, on top of simply rushing the product out the door too soon too.
CARE BEAR ALERT!!!!!!!!
Hold onto your fruitcakes!!!!!!
Getting too old for this $&17!
I believe many people would play a 100% PVE MMO. Actually, many people that play WoW are 100% PVE'ers. They just hang out with their friends, go fight some critters and do raids / dungeons.
As for me, I prefer PvP too. I do believe there is a lot of skill that can take place in PvP, but there is skill overall playing a game. Having skill in PvE and PvP is difficult for many people. I always enjoyed playing a very well rounded character and hanging out with people who were also very well rounded, but not full of themselves. Talking crap in a battle is one thing, but just walking around putting down people is another, unfortunately a mindset so many PvP'ers seem to have. Relax, save it for the field. LOL
Well obviously I'm a PvP'er, but I never got those douche bags that rolled up on you several levels ahead AND while you were in the middle of a kill just roll up and gank you. Then taunt you. My suspicions is that it's some 11 year old who spends a lot of time at home who doesn't know the difference from a legit kill and being a fktarded coward because players his/her level pwn him all the time. I guess even little ones as skill-less as a lot of them are, still need to feel a sense of some victory. Until you go and grab your main.
Getting too old for this $&17!
As a matter of fact, I don't think many players like pvp in games you can pay real money to get substantial advantages over players who don't play. There are always mysterious players showing up pvping in the best gear the games offer but yet you never see them leveling anywhere. I am not a fool to spend any money to pvp in such games where I can only pay to lose.
I've wiped the floor with people better geared than me. Most of those people get the gear but never really spend time on their class therefore having no PvP skills. But hell.....they probably paid for the leveling too.
Getting too old for this $&17!
As long the gameplay is unique, I don't matter. I use PvP almost never.
This proves a point though. Let's assume that most PvP'ers are not like the ass-hat you describe. Undeniably, a few of them are. That means that some PvP'ers are essentially, a-holes. Now, of course, some PvE'ers are as well. But when you PvP, you have to interact with other players, and inevitably, you will meet up with some of these a-holes. When I PvE, at least soloing, I never have to interact with those jerks.
In answer to the OP, simply: Yes.
Yes, I would.
I have nothing against PvP, I've even been known to enjoy it, and I never shy away from a game that has PvP as part of the mix.
That said, why I'd happily play a PvE only MMO is so that I wouldn't have to deal with being ganked, quest-givers being slaughtered and spawn-camped for hours on end, and all the other annoyances that go along with a PvP system. Not because all PvP players are asshats (because they aren't), but because some are and there doesn't seem to be a game with PvP in it out there that's free of griefers.
On the hate front, I think a lot of it stems from people wanting different things from a game and feeling that what they want is a right, and anyone asking for anything else, or happy to play the game as it is, is a carebear/griefer. Which is rather silly.
There's a bit of a problem these days with players being unwilling to play a game as is, without screaming from the rooftops about how it should have MOAR PvP AND FULL LOOTZ or NO PVP AND MOAR EPIK RAIDZZ or whatever side of the debate they fall on.
My philosophy has always been to find a game that I enjoy playing and not try to make it into anything other than the game it is, to explore it, try a bit of all it has to offer, and play only as long as it keeps me happy. If I leave a game, I see no reason to announce why I did to the world. To approach a game any other way is completely illogical and leads to nerdrage and forum PvP where everyone else looks askance at the guy on the soapbox claiming the game is fail because it didn't have full looting or it didn't have enough raids yet or whatever.
Differing playstyles are just that, differing, there are enough games out there for both crowds without every new game that comes out being yelled at by players to shoehorn in something that wasn't part of the plan but that some loud forum-goers are baying for. And that applies to both sides of the debate.
True, but if people buy gold in a PvE game, that doesn't make the mobs harder to kill.. if you follow what I'm saying.. or have been trying to say.
When people buy gold in a PvP game, it makes the opponent's harder to kill.
I can't believe I actually had to write that out, lol.
"TO MICHAEL!"
True, but if people buy gold in a PvE game, that doesn't make the mobs harder to kill.. if you follow what I'm saying.. or have been trying to say.
When people buy gold in a PvP game, it makes the opponent's harder to kill.
I can't believe I actually had to write that out, lol.
Technically, it can. If the prices of the in game money is driven up because of the poor economy due to gold-buying (which in turn means gold farmers have demand, thus a problem with gold farmers as well), you may not be able to buy the equipment to kill those mobs. That means those mobs are harder to kill than if there were a normal economy without the influence of gold buyers/sellers. Not by damage output from the mobs, but damage received/given by you over time because of your inability to purchase decent items. This is not even including run ins with bot farmers/gold farmers taking up your mobs, the increase of time you have to spend farming for money, etc.
Murashu is correct in saying it has negative impacts on any game, including PvE only games. We understand what you're saying, I promise.
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In response to the original post and adding to the many, I played FFXI and it was and still has been the most fun I've had in any game to date. It was a soul sucking, life leeching type of game back then which is why I stopped playing it and am currently anticipating FFXIV. The fact that there is little to no PvP has no bearing on the fun factor for me. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy killing in PvP quite immensely! But as others have stated, it usually has very little reward attached to it other than epeen. Something I really have no use of =P
Quite mistaken here.. reminds me of people who lived their whole lives in the city think things are a certain way, or that milk comes from supermarkets.
The largest MMO in the gaming communtiy is World of Warcraft. That game has more players than the top 10 games behind it.
The largest section makeup of World of Warcraft players are casuals. They also don't play PvP as the main focus of the game. They more than likely didn't go through Walmart or Bestbuy looking for a PvP game, but more for something with some type of adventure angle. The majority of them are PvE people who are into the emotes, community, small game playing. Not major raiding or major PvP.
I really think you need to try some other MMOs because even those with PvP in "some form or fashion" don't have tons playing the PvP or would EVER consider themselves PvP players. This may change sometime if that untapped FPS market starts to play online but right now, the majority of gamers are of the WoW variety.
I have no idea why PvP people continue to think they are the majority of gaming players.
I disagree with your assumption simply because you haven't seen one, that no statistics can measure which type of gamer is more prevalent. There have been cross-sectional studies on WoW players and other types of MMOs in general as to age, job, gender, time played, method preferred, etc by several people that can be looked up with Google.
The Daedalus Gateway
"TO MICHAEL!"
True, but if people buy gold in a PvE game, that doesn't make the mobs harder to kill.. if you follow what I'm saying.. or have been trying to say.
When people buy gold in a PvP game, it makes the opponent's harder to kill.
I can't believe I actually had to write that out, lol.
Technically, it can. If the prices of the in game money is driven up because of the poor economy due to gold-buying (which in turn means gold farmers have demand, thus a problem with gold farmers as well), you may not be able to buy the equipment to kill those mobs. That means those mobs are harder to kill than if there were a normal economy without the influence of gold buyers/sellers. Not by damage output from the mobs, but damage received/given by you over time because of your inability to purchase decent items. This is not even including run ins with bot farmers/gold farmers taking up your mobs, the increase of time you have to spend farming for money, etc.
Murashu is correct in saying it has negative impacts on any game, including PvE only games. We understand what you're saying, I promise.
---
In response to the original post and adding to the many, I played FFXI and it was and still has been the most fun I've had in any game to date. It was a soul sucking, life leeching type of game back then which is why I stopped playing it and am currently anticipating FFXIV. The fact that there is little to no PvP has no bearing on the fun factor for me. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy killing in PvP quite immensely! But as others have stated, it usually has very little reward attached to it other than epeen. Something I really have no use of =P
Technically, anything is technical.
But we aren't discussing "technicalities". What would be the point in that? Everything has a technicality but thats' not the main discussion.
No one is disputing gold affects economies in game. So that said, you have a PvP game and a PvE game.
In the PvE game, goldsellers/buying mess up the economy. If you are a player, you can still go out and farm whatever you need solo or with other people in your guild and you don't buy anything at all. Since you have your own crafters and harversters, you are IMMUNE to what goldsellers and buyers do, kind of like how a person who can fix their own car doesn't care that mechanics make $50/hour.. The mobs are no less easier or harder to actually KILL (see: gamePLAY) whether another person buys gold or not. It does not affect your play or your guilds/friends play because you can farm.
In a PvP game, same goldsellers/buyers... now you have people like in AION with +10 weapons in each hand, gold gear they buy off the broker, and the most expensive stigmas (rare special skills) that cost millions and are difficult to get. So you meet these cheaters on the battlefield one on one and get trounced. Now when enough people who take pride in their PvP leet skills keep getting killed, they WILL buy gold. They will use hacks because YOU are the mob, they are trying to kill. This is the main part of PvP and the gold directly affects that play. Its not on an even field.
So you don't want to buy gold in a PvP game and go farm. Well, if its an open PvP zone, those same cheaters are the ones ganking you while you are farming. Now they directly affect your ability to farm and get better gear to compete.
In short, PvP gold makes an uneven playing field where humans fighting each other are not equal, and that ruins the spirit of the game since that's the main goal; killing other people.
In a PvE game, gold only makes someone who wants to collect gold gear have shinier stuff but it doesn't hinder another person's ability to kill a mob or farm for their own gear. Those wanting to play fair aren't killed and ganked while trying to play the game as the maker's intended it to be played.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Yes I would, that would be one of the main reasons for me for playing the MMORPG, no PvP whatsoever.
Just nice people overall in the game, ahhhh.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
Not wishing to stir the pot too much on this one, but....in a PvE game if a player is in a guild and goes to a gold-buying site...it can affect their guild, and thereby other players. As in, account gets hacked, guild bank gets emptied. Everyone in the guild suffers.
Sure, ideally, people would be farming everything, because they can ( as you said) - but we all know that some people are lazy and want the instant gratification of getting whatever it is they are farming for without the effort of actually farming it. Or (and this argument tends to pop up a lot) they don't have "time" to farm, and they want to have the same "options" in game as everyone else (urr, they do, but anyway) so they buy gold in order to have the same level of "fun" as they think everyone else has, only without the graft.
The gold-selling market is huge, it's pretty clear that not only PvP-ers buy gold. I bet there's a pretty good market for EQ plat and LOTRO gold out there. There's no good reason for buying gold, ever, but both sides do it, and it affects everyone's game in the long run.
Not wishing to stir the pot too much on this one, but....in a PvE game if a player is in a guild and goes to a gold-buying site...it can affect their guild, and thereby other players. As in, account gets hacked, guild bank gets emptied. Everyone in the guild suffers.
Sure, ideally, people would be farming everything, because they can ( as you said) - but we all know that some people are lazy and want the instant gratification of getting whatever it is they are farming for without the effort of actually farming it. Or (and this argument tends to pop up a lot) they don't have "time" to farm, and they want to have the same "options" in game as everyone else (urr, they do, but anyway) so they buy gold in order to have the same level of "fun" as they think everyone else has, only without the graft.
The gold-selling market is huge, it's pretty clear that not only PvP-ers buy gold. I bet there's a pretty good market for EQ plat and LOTRO gold out there. There's no good reason for buying gold, ever, but both sides do it, and it affects everyone's game in the long run.
I'm no fan of PvP, but he's right. Gil-selling was a big problem in FFXI, which has essentially no PvP, until Square-Enix got really serious about cracking down on it. Even with massive crackdowns, it still exists.
As a pvper, if gold selling/buying affected gameplay as massivey as you described it does in Aion, I would quit. I played Aion for a very short time, so i can't comment on the game, or how its going..
If the developers of the game allow such a massive gamebreaking issue to exist, shame on them.
edit:
Also, please don't think you know me well enough to know what I would do in a game. I take pride in my "leet " PvP skills, but i wouldn't do what you assume I would do in this post....
You certainly love to lump PvPers into one cheating, gold buying, hacking group, eh?
I already do,it's called Vanguard Halgar server.
Furious Fighters
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm
"Goldbuying in a PvE game isn't an issue, friend. If another PvEer buys gold, that does nothing to affect my ACTUAL gameplay. Nor does it inhibit what I personally am able to do as I am fighting mobs; not people"
I have to disagree with that statement. Gold buying has a huge unseen affect on pve games. It jacks up all the prices in the game because there is far more cash available in the economy.
Rarely do I find all the items I need through questing, I almost always buy things off the economy and the gold available to me does not increase yet I have to deal with the higher prices.
I never said PvP players were the majority. I disagree with the assumption that PvE players are. I personally, believe that most people fall somewhere in the " I pve and pvp category." How many people pvp really depends on how good the game has designed it's pvp conflict/mechanics.
I've played DaoC, WaR, CoX, EvE, SWG, Guild Wars, even other online games such at Battleforge, and there are a lot of people who do PvP. City of Heroes lost a large portion of their playerbase with Issue 10, I think it's issue 10, when they nerfed pvp ability to some degree. Faulty assumption on your part about my game history. Should we go back to the days of early video games like Defender and Asteroids where people competed against each other for high score?
Even with statistics pulled off a Google search, you'd still only have a fraction of the people who play MMO's listed, as it's very unlikely that any program or data mining has pulled every player's stats from every MMO to see who has pvp'd or not. What you can see however is almost every MMO that is coming out, even online console games that feature PvP gameplay. I just guess that Call of Duty and Halo were huge hits for their pve encounters. Even if those particular two are FPS it shows that there are a lot of people who like to PVP. Warhammer's initial success in box sales, WoW adding pvp content continually, EvE, and the other dozen MMO's on the horizon only leads to the hypothesis that the pvp playerbase is larger than you think.
This is exactly correct. Gold buying in a PvE game only affects the prices on vendors/player auction houses. It doesn't affect the ability of people to get the items, just intrudes on their ability to buy the item cheaply without doing the content to actually get the item. I find this hilarious that any PVE player would gripe about this, since their whole argument is based on the actions of actually playing the game, beating the zone/mobs, enjoying the competition/difficulty of PVE.
In a PvP game, someone buying gold can twink themselves out without much effort. Then again, when I had max level characters in my games, I used to fund my lowbie toons with them. So either way, I don't have a problem with gold farming.. as long as encounters aren't on timed spawns where the gold farmers can camp the spots all day long like preventing the rest of the population the ability to get any item, similar to what happened in the early days of Trials of Atlantis.