NPC's usually have a pattern or a certain way that they can be defeated. Stop complaining and just deal with the PvP folks. If you're complaining about getting quest ganked and what not, then you suck and have no problem solving skills. Or skills period.
Yeah, no offense to the quoted person in particular...but this is the typical PvP player mindset.
IMO there is no such thing as "skills" in MMO PvP. Most players will hide and wait for you to be engaged with another player or an NPC to attack, or attack when your already seriously low on health, or only attack if they are 8+ levels higher than you where they know they couldn't possibly lose, or only attack when the numbers are stacked in there favor (3+ on 1). Their is no skill involved, only moments of opportunity, which is what PvP is. But to say it's skill? I guess it could depend on the game that is incorporating the PvP, but I know I personally haven't seen an MMO that has a system good enough to truly be able to say it depends on a players skill with said class to be good, and not as much on the gear the character is wearing, the random dice rolls of hits or misses, or simply blind luck.
Also, personally, I don't feel fighting a player is that much less predictable than an NPC tbh. Most players will find a pattern they are comfortable with, or is the "Flavor build of the week" and stick with it. It doesn't take many times fighting any particular class, etc that you don't know what to expect really. Considering most of the scenarios above as well that happen a majority of the time on PvP oriented MMO's, where is the skill?
And before the "Carebear" comments roll in, I have played EVE off and on now for 3 years, and have done PvP in several other MMO's, so I am not wet behind the ears to it and don't simply "suck at it". To me, until a system is thought of and incorporated that truly allows for challenge and skill to be a factor, PvP is pointless other than to feel important on your respective server and have e-fame, or to simply be a jerk without any real reprecussions befalling you because you can unlike in RL. Not all PvP players are like this, but from personal experience, the majority has been. There IS a difference between enjoying competitiveness with other players and the excitement of a close fight or a decisive win over a worthy opponent and simply doing some of the above mentioned things simply to be a jerk and attempt to show everyone else how cool and great you are by winning meaningless easy fights through lame and lopsided tactics.
But back on the subject, personally I feel PvP doesn't belong as an afterthought in a PvE heavy MMO just to attract more players/money. It tends to ruin it for one side or the other because they struggle to make it balanced for the life of the game most of the time, leading to complaining about "X" class, etc, which in turn throws off many other elements of the game until there is a bigger mess. I just feel that someone needs to man up, pick a desired niche group and run with it. Trying to appeal to everyone doesn't always work out. I think we have all seen a slew of MMO's recently that pretty much show that to be true...well, on top of simply rushing the product out the door too soon too.
This poster makes an excellent point. Simply put most MMO's do a very poor job at actualy implimenting PvP with any sense of quality or skill/strategy imposed on the player. It's why I generaly don't play MMO's for PvP.... The only one that I've played that seems to do a good job is WWII Online...but really that's more like a semi-persistant FPS then an MMO.
I do enjoy PvP.... but when I want that sort of competition in a game...I'll go play a PBEM strategy game or an Online FPS (like the Battle-field series). Simply put....most MMO's don't offer much in the way of depth of strategy/tactics or even hand-eye coordination skill in PvP.
And really "ganking" or being "ganked" is nothing about skill or lack there-of..... it's simply about expectations. A little old lady could KO an olympic boxer by bashing him in the back of the head with her cane while standing in the grocery check-out. It's not that the Olympic boxer is less skilled...it's just that he is not expecting to have to fight in that environment. Just like the guy getting "ganked" isn't neccesarly less skilled...he's just not there to play the same game as the "ganker".....and probably doesn't really want to.....it's all about the expectation the game sets for it's users.
100% PvE MMO, hrmm.. if I have no choices, and really bored, I may play it for awhile. But without PvP, PvE can get old very fast. I mean you can say the same vice versa, without PvE, PvP can get old if that's all you do sometimes. I'm the kind of guy that likes a bit of everything in my MMO's.
The gaming industry is same as other industry, there is evolvement. A good game to be qualified as good requires PVP. From the balance of classes and the play ground of PVP, you may tell how good was the game.
A mmorpg without PVP is same as a Notebook Computer without battery. It maybe a very good Notebook, however, it is a bit old fashion.
Many people might still think PVP is some kind of street ganking but that was old story. I think more and more designers trying to design a better play ground for PVPers.
Grouping in a mmo is being overthrown even its a massive mupltiple online game. Any game should focus on Guild, because guild is the place to organize players for group.
The gaming industry is same as other industry, there is evolvement. A good game to be qualified as good requires PVP. From the balance of classes and the play ground of PVP, you may tell how good was the game. A mmorpg without PVP is same as a Notebook Computer without battery. It maybe a very good Notebook, however, it is a bit old fashion. Many people might still think PVP is some kind of street ganking but that was old story. I think more and more designers trying to design a better play ground for PVPers. Grouping in a mmo is being overthrown even its a massive mupltiple online game. Any game should focus on Guild, because guild is the place to organize players for group. So I think gaming experience is changing now.
Gaming experience is changing, but I disagree with the rest of this post.
In almost every MMO I play, I never pvp (like, ever), never join a guild, and very, very rarely team up.
So, for me - PvP: completely unnecessary, and unwanted, if it affects my PvE game in the slightest. Guilds - completely unnecessary. Grouping - completely unnecessary.
Originally posted by Larry2298 The gaming industry is same as other industry, there is evolvement. A good game to be qualified as good requires PVP. From the balance of classes and the play ground of PVP, you may tell how good was the game.
Now that makes absolutely no sense. It's the same as saying that any good movie needs sci-fi. And maybe porn, and gore, and horror, and romance, and beeing a bit arty, while also children friendly, and beeing satiric, political...
Same as some movies specialize on a very specific subject and beeing still incredible, so can games concentrate on one subject and be great.
Gaming experience is changing, but I disagree with the rest of this post.
In almost every MMO I play, I never pvp (like, ever), never join a guild, and very, very rarely team up.
So, for me - PvP: completely unnecessary, and unwanted, if it affects my PvE game in the slightest. Guilds - completely unnecessary. Grouping - completely unnecessary.
Im in the same boat... i would never shed a tear if PVP isnt in a game.. and it being in the minority is one thing i look for to start (or at least continue) to play a game. Usually if its in the majority it means that there are many complaints of class balancing (waa waa this class kills me too quick ... nerf them NOW) which passes over to PVE .. very tough to make both balanced!
What kinda games are you playing then swamp? im kinda interested. Im on Eq2 now.. played almost them all tho
Gaming experience is changing, but I disagree with the rest of this post.
In almost every MMO I play, I never pvp (like, ever), never join a guild, and very, very rarely team up.
So, for me - PvP: completely unnecessary, and unwanted, if it affects my PvE game in the slightest. Guilds - completely unnecessary. Grouping - completely unnecessary.
Im in the same boat... i would never shed a tear if PVP isnt in a game.. and it being in the minority is one thing i look for to start (or at least continue) to play a game. Usually if its in the majority it means that there are many complaints of class balancing (waa waa this class kills me too quick ... nerf them NOW) which passes over to PVE .. very tough to make both balanced!
What kinda games are you playing then swamp? im kinda interested. Im on Eq2 now.. played almost them all tho
City of Heroes is my go-to game. PvP is restricted to a few zones and you never have to go in except for one 'talk to' quest where the guy is right at the entrance. There are almost no group-required missions, and the few that are can be skipped. Best of all, you can get the most uber loot in the game without once being required to team to get it. Man, how I wish that last part was in every game.
Currently, I've recently rejoined Lotro. It does have some end-game raiding which I haven't seen, but the game is becoming more and more solo-friendly. I also love the crafting in that game.
I tried EQ 2 and simply found it to be too large. I know that sounds odd, but as a lowbie it took forever to get anywhere, even within a city. I don't know about their endgame, but I've heard it's like Wow and boy have I had my fill of that 'only raiding gets the best loot' garbage.
Loaded question. Most people prefer doing a bit of both. This poll is just here so PvEers can point to it when they cry over a game that doesn't cater exclusively to them. Plus this community is overwhelmingly PvE friendly. PvPers get flamed to high hell here.
PvP doesn't ruin games, PvEers who cry about PvP does.
And no.
Well, everyone gets an opinion, and I guess that's yours. I enjoy both PvE and PvP too, but just not in the same game. It's impossible to do both without really dumb, contrived mechanics which are easily exploitable by griefers.
Eve Online is an example of how fail the concept is - even way in "safe space", lamer faux PvPrs still manage to effectively grief the people who are making the entire player-run economy work.
I would, and have. I played FFXI for 4 years, yes it has PvP, but I never once participated in it (dynamis seemed so much more fun hehe). In DAoC, however, I played until I got to about 48 on my warrior, and never left the frontiers. It totally depends on the game I guess.
And please give the reasons for your answers. Personally PVP has never been my cup of tea. It's not that i never tried, i just dont feel any sense of accomplishement fighting others peoples for what really ? Bragging rights ? There is already TONS of pvp game out there, mostly shooters, why does every MMO that comes out MUST have some sort of PVP in it ? Do you think we could have a succesful MMO without the PVP aspect ?
I answered YES, but there has to be made a remark on it...
I like PvP as addition to a game, but PvP has to be with rules. The sandbox rules where you can kill without restriction is not my cup of tea. PvP as in Lineage II, where restrictions are in place is the thing I like. You opt if you want to PvP or not, including the PK rules (which at times can be rather harsh).
I also loathe the whole Realm vs Realm idea. Why are there always 2 opposing factions? Make it more interesting with neutral factions (Balur in Aion), or add a 3rd (or more) player faction (RF online, though I don't like that gameplay). a 2-sided Realm vs Realm system is too limited IMO and numbs my senses and feels like "If it moves and not one of us, kill it"
About a game completely without PvP... I'm playing FFXI at the moment, and waiting for FFXIV to be released. I used to play LotRo (a PvE game IMO, the PvP it offers is close to null and void ), but am inactive due to the new content (skirmishes, please...). I might pick it up after new is added...
If the rules are simple, no problem. Planetside (I mean the one before they let EQ2 and SWG devs have at it) had really simple rules that worked extremely well. We players made the game every single day of its formerly glorious existence.
Every race gets a sanctuary, and it has multiple ways off to other continents so you can't get totally trapped.
Go cap the bases and when you have them all, you own the continent and can go cap other conts that are linked to it. Cap all the continents (driving the other two teams back to their sanctuaries) and you get to take screenshots of how awesometastic you are.
Grief someone on your own team, you get grief points and a weapon lockdown at some point.
There's no way to grief the other teams' players. If you can shoot them, they're in a place where they know they're fair game, and they can shoot you back too.
And that's about all the rules you need in a PvP game.
This is serious business. From reading such responses one gets the notion that there are two different groups of gamers in MMO's. I expect a full out war in the near future between these two groups.
I don't think so.
There's 2 different groups of gamers- those who would play an MMO without PvP (majority), and those who wouldn't (minority). I'd guess most would prefer a bit of both however, if it didn't affect the game quality. It's not the point of this thread though.
Yes, just like I would play a single player RPG on consoles. I don't mind fighting the AI, so long as the game gives me reasons to play. For an MMORPG, that means a decent story, lots of character customization, a wealth of features, and of course - fun.
It is nice to have PvP? I think so. It provides an alternate gameplay experience, although one that is clearly a double-edged sword based on the people who play.
My enjoyment of MMO's is the friendly interaction between people, not about who can click faster or decide who has better pvp skills. My pvp skills suck, sometimes it is actually fun, but most of the time its some ignorant person on the other end just trying to grief others and ruin the fun because it makes them feel better. If an MMO is based all around pvp I wont even try it out myself.
I would play 100% PvE. I like PvP, don't get me wrong, but I find there are always those who take it too far and go overboard and think griefing and interfering with someone else's gameplay for half an hour is "fun" and everyone who disagrees are just "crybabies". I think it's the actions of those types of PvPers that ruin it for themselves and start the trickle-down effect of players leaving and new subs canceling.
Anyway, 100% PvE can get a little boring depending on the AI. So I would only be interested in that if the AI were more intelligent and less predictable. It would also have to be a very group-heavy, "us-against- the- world" type of play. Otherwise 100% soloable PvE is just a console game.
Comments
Yeah, no offense to the quoted person in particular...but this is the typical PvP player mindset.
IMO there is no such thing as "skills" in MMO PvP. Most players will hide and wait for you to be engaged with another player or an NPC to attack, or attack when your already seriously low on health, or only attack if they are 8+ levels higher than you where they know they couldn't possibly lose, or only attack when the numbers are stacked in there favor (3+ on 1). Their is no skill involved, only moments of opportunity, which is what PvP is. But to say it's skill? I guess it could depend on the game that is incorporating the PvP, but I know I personally haven't seen an MMO that has a system good enough to truly be able to say it depends on a players skill with said class to be good, and not as much on the gear the character is wearing, the random dice rolls of hits or misses, or simply blind luck.
Also, personally, I don't feel fighting a player is that much less predictable than an NPC tbh. Most players will find a pattern they are comfortable with, or is the "Flavor build of the week" and stick with it. It doesn't take many times fighting any particular class, etc that you don't know what to expect really. Considering most of the scenarios above as well that happen a majority of the time on PvP oriented MMO's, where is the skill?
And before the "Carebear" comments roll in, I have played EVE off and on now for 3 years, and have done PvP in several other MMO's, so I am not wet behind the ears to it and don't simply "suck at it". To me, until a system is thought of and incorporated that truly allows for challenge and skill to be a factor, PvP is pointless other than to feel important on your respective server and have e-fame, or to simply be a jerk without any real reprecussions befalling you because you can unlike in RL. Not all PvP players are like this, but from personal experience, the majority has been. There IS a difference between enjoying competitiveness with other players and the excitement of a close fight or a decisive win over a worthy opponent and simply doing some of the above mentioned things simply to be a jerk and attempt to show everyone else how cool and great you are by winning meaningless easy fights through lame and lopsided tactics.
But back on the subject, personally I feel PvP doesn't belong as an afterthought in a PvE heavy MMO just to attract more players/money. It tends to ruin it for one side or the other because they struggle to make it balanced for the life of the game most of the time, leading to complaining about "X" class, etc, which in turn throws off many other elements of the game until there is a bigger mess. I just feel that someone needs to man up, pick a desired niche group and run with it. Trying to appeal to everyone doesn't always work out. I think we have all seen a slew of MMO's recently that pretty much show that to be true...well, on top of simply rushing the product out the door too soon too.
This poster makes an excellent point. Simply put most MMO's do a very poor job at actualy implimenting PvP with any sense of quality or skill/strategy imposed on the player. It's why I generaly don't play MMO's for PvP.... The only one that I've played that seems to do a good job is WWII Online...but really that's more like a semi-persistant FPS then an MMO.
I do enjoy PvP.... but when I want that sort of competition in a game...I'll go play a PBEM strategy game or an Online FPS (like the Battle-field series). Simply put....most MMO's don't offer much in the way of depth of strategy/tactics or even hand-eye coordination skill in PvP.
And really "ganking" or being "ganked" is nothing about skill or lack there-of..... it's simply about expectations. A little old lady could KO an olympic boxer by bashing him in the back of the head with her cane while standing in the grocery check-out. It's not that the Olympic boxer is less skilled...it's just that he is not expecting to have to fight in that environment. Just like the guy getting "ganked" isn't neccesarly less skilled...he's just not there to play the same game as the "ganker".....and probably doesn't really want to.....it's all about the expectation the game sets for it's users.
100% PvE MMO, hrmm.. if I have no choices, and really bored, I may play it for awhile. But without PvP, PvE can get old very fast. I mean you can say the same vice versa, without PvE, PvP can get old if that's all you do sometimes. I'm the kind of guy that likes a bit of everything in my MMO's.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
NOPE
I'd rather play a single player for free. Same thing but cheaper.
If you can party up with other players, why not? It all depends on the quality of the game. I'd hit it!
Rock n' Roll Ninja
The gaming industry is same as other industry, there is evolvement. A good game to be qualified as good requires PVP. From the balance of classes and the play ground of PVP, you may tell how good was the game.
A mmorpg without PVP is same as a Notebook Computer without battery. It maybe a very good Notebook, however, it is a bit old fashion.
Many people might still think PVP is some kind of street ganking but that was old story. I think more and more designers trying to design a better play ground for PVPers.
Grouping in a mmo is being overthrown even its a massive mupltiple online game. Any game should focus on Guild, because guild is the place to organize players for group.
So I think gaming experience is changing now.
No, it doesn't. Surveys consistently show it's not even particularly important.
Gaming experience is changing, but I disagree with the rest of this post.
In almost every MMO I play, I never pvp (like, ever), never join a guild, and very, very rarely team up.
So, for me - PvP: completely unnecessary, and unwanted, if it affects my PvE game in the slightest. Guilds - completely unnecessary. Grouping - completely unnecessary.
Now that makes absolutely no sense. It's the same as saying that any good movie needs sci-fi. And maybe porn, and gore, and horror, and romance, and beeing a bit arty, while also children friendly, and beeing satiric, political...
Same as some movies specialize on a very specific subject and beeing still incredible, so can games concentrate on one subject and be great.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Gaming experience is changing, but I disagree with the rest of this post.
In almost every MMO I play, I never pvp (like, ever), never join a guild, and very, very rarely team up.
So, for me - PvP: completely unnecessary, and unwanted, if it affects my PvE game in the slightest. Guilds - completely unnecessary. Grouping - completely unnecessary.
Im in the same boat... i would never shed a tear if PVP isnt in a game.. and it being in the minority is one thing i look for to start (or at least continue) to play a game. Usually if its in the majority it means that there are many complaints of class balancing (waa waa this class kills me too quick ... nerf them NOW) which passes over to PVE .. very tough to make both balanced!
What kinda games are you playing then swamp? im kinda interested. Im on Eq2 now.. played almost them all tho
Gaming experience is changing, but I disagree with the rest of this post.
In almost every MMO I play, I never pvp (like, ever), never join a guild, and very, very rarely team up.
So, for me - PvP: completely unnecessary, and unwanted, if it affects my PvE game in the slightest. Guilds - completely unnecessary. Grouping - completely unnecessary.
Im in the same boat... i would never shed a tear if PVP isnt in a game.. and it being in the minority is one thing i look for to start (or at least continue) to play a game. Usually if its in the majority it means that there are many complaints of class balancing (waa waa this class kills me too quick ... nerf them NOW) which passes over to PVE .. very tough to make both balanced!
What kinda games are you playing then swamp? im kinda interested. Im on Eq2 now.. played almost them all tho
City of Heroes is my go-to game. PvP is restricted to a few zones and you never have to go in except for one 'talk to' quest where the guy is right at the entrance. There are almost no group-required missions, and the few that are can be skipped. Best of all, you can get the most uber loot in the game without once being required to team to get it. Man, how I wish that last part was in every game.
Currently, I've recently rejoined Lotro. It does have some end-game raiding which I haven't seen, but the game is becoming more and more solo-friendly. I also love the crafting in that game.
I tried EQ 2 and simply found it to be too large. I know that sounds odd, but as a lowbie it took forever to get anywhere, even within a city. I don't know about their endgame, but I've heard it's like Wow and boy have I had my fill of that 'only raiding gets the best loot' garbage.
Fun is fun. All depends on that.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
Well, everyone gets an opinion, and I guess that's yours. I enjoy both PvE and PvP too, but just not in the same game. It's impossible to do both without really dumb, contrived mechanics which are easily exploitable by griefers.
Eve Online is an example of how fail the concept is - even way in "safe space", lamer faux PvPrs still manage to effectively grief the people who are making the entire player-run economy work.
I would, and have. I played FFXI for 4 years, yes it has PvP, but I never once participated in it (dynamis seemed so much more fun hehe). In DAoC, however, I played until I got to about 48 on my warrior, and never left the frontiers. It totally depends on the game I guess.
I answered YES, but there has to be made a remark on it...
I like PvP as addition to a game, but PvP has to be with rules. The sandbox rules where you can kill without restriction is not my cup of tea. PvP as in Lineage II, where restrictions are in place is the thing I like. You opt if you want to PvP or not, including the PK rules (which at times can be rather harsh).
I also loathe the whole Realm vs Realm idea. Why are there always 2 opposing factions? Make it more interesting with neutral factions (Balur in Aion), or add a 3rd (or more) player faction (RF online, though I don't like that gameplay). a 2-sided Realm vs Realm system is too limited IMO and numbs my senses and feels like "If it moves and not one of us, kill it"
About a game completely without PvP... I'm playing FFXI at the moment, and waiting for FFXIV to be released. I used to play LotRo (a PvE game IMO, the PvP it offers is close to null and void
), but am inactive due to the new content (skirmishes, please...). I might pick it up after new is added...
If the rules are simple, no problem. Planetside (I mean the one before they let EQ2 and SWG devs have at it) had really simple rules that worked extremely well. We players made the game every single day of its formerly glorious existence.
And that's about all the rules you need in a PvP game.
Yes I would buy a pve only mmo, If it was good.
I have been playing Lineage 2 for over 5 years now & I love it even tho it is billed as a pvp game.
99% of the time I am only doing pve in it anyhow.
I love trying to lvl up & equip my toons & getting into some good pve parties.
pvp usually just turns into a shouting match after somebody got Pwn'd.
pvp has nothing for me.
I don't think so.
There's 2 different groups of gamers- those who would play an MMO without PvP (majority), and those who wouldn't (minority). I'd guess most would prefer a bit of both however, if it didn't affect the game quality. It's not the point of this thread though.
That was sarcasm. You obviously missed it though.
If the mmo is amazing, then sure why not.
"Some people feel the rain. Others just get wet." -Bob Marley
I'm probably one of those people who just get wet.
Yes, just like I would play a single player RPG on consoles. I don't mind fighting the AI, so long as the game gives me reasons to play. For an MMORPG, that means a decent story, lots of character customization, a wealth of features, and of course - fun.
It is nice to have PvP? I think so. It provides an alternate gameplay experience, although one that is clearly a double-edged sword based on the people who play.
depends how good the game is PvE wise and if it keeps you involved in playing.
Yes, thats Final Fantasy XIV and I plan to play it.
My enjoyment of MMO's is the friendly interaction between people, not about who can click faster or decide who has better pvp skills. My pvp skills suck, sometimes it is actually fun, but most of the time its some ignorant person on the other end just trying to grief others and ruin the fun because it makes them feel better. If an MMO is based all around pvp I wont even try it out myself.
Solitaire Online doesn't sound very fun to me. I play PVP because I enjoyed games like Poker and Tic Tac Toe over Solitaire and Hopscotch.
Im the same way, I need the thrill of competition.
I've played a 100% PvE MMOs before and I would again but my ideal game would contain PvP as well.
I would play 100% PvE. I like PvP, don't get me wrong, but I find there are always those who take it too far and go overboard and think griefing and interfering with someone else's gameplay for half an hour is "fun" and everyone who disagrees are just "crybabies". I think it's the actions of those types of PvPers that ruin it for themselves and start the trickle-down effect of players leaving and new subs canceling.
Anyway, 100% PvE can get a little boring depending on the AI. So I would only be interested in that if the AI were more intelligent and less predictable. It would also have to be a very group-heavy, "us-against- the- world" type of play. Otherwise 100% soloable PvE is just a console game.