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Bioware: "No point' to most MMOs"
Khors
Member Posts: 147
Ohhh...them's fighting words. Bioware, it seems, will continue to pick up its thrown gauntled, just to throw it down again.
Bioware has criticised current MMO games for having "no point" - and pledged that mammoth creation Star Wars: The Old Republic will finally bring real story to the genre. http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=248858
I'm gonna stick it out with Bioware and continue to be really interested, since I've really enjoyed their single-player games.
But its the unknown of whether they can meld their single-player expertise and story-telling with what should be depth and breadth of massively multiplayer content, dynamic and community-involved content in a persistnet world that has me wondering.
Comments
Bioware continues to set itself up for the inevitable fall when their over-confident hype falls flat when faced with the reality at launch. They should just shut up about anything other than things directly linked to their game. "We'll be better than X is" is not linked to their game, but their increasingly over-inflated egos.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Interesting link:
What caught my eye was this:
"He added: "I don't think that [MMO creators] set out in the beginning to say: 'Hey, let's make this a grind. Let's not have any interesting content here.' A lot of the better ones more recently have interesting content for the first few levels, you know - and some of them for the first 20 levels, whatever. But it's still not the interesting content you'd expect in a single-player game."
So this guy is still thinking MMO's is the equivalent of a single player adventure game "on line".
Oh Boy, You don't play MMo's for 4 years for a predefined movie based story line...
--> Well it is his neck, not mine. I smell Age of Conan here.
Yes I do think succesful MMO's are being played for the excellent grind (meaning you keep playing the same content with different options and choices over and over and over again, because to this player it is fun and even conveniant (or he wouldn't be paying).
In fact millions of people want to look at matches for a thousand times.
How many of these people want to read the same book/movie for a hundred times?
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I can understand the "no point" to most MMOs. If you consider the endless pursuit of more "power" through items. Does giving us a "purpose" through our questline make a "point" to the game? Moreover will this new "point" matter, or will we all slowly drift back to our respective safehouses(wow, eq2, eve, etc)?
I agree with Khors. Sticking it out and remaining interested.
They are right though, most MMOs have no point in playing them once you complete all the content. If Bioware thinks that throwing better content that can be eaten through at the same rate will save the game 3-4 months in, they need to take more notes.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Nice twist you've added.
He is right, SPRPGs posses most of the interesting content, what he is saying: Why shouldn't an MMO?
He is also correct about other MMOs not having a point.
The point of an MMO is to advance your character and progress with the most common of all human characteristics: greed and need.
Shaping it in a pleasant format and keeping it up is what makes an mmorpg.
We brag with a new car and pants in real life. Just like we want to show off a new mount or sword or achievement title.
That's the driving force of prolonged play, not the fixed scenario movie part.
In a good mmorpg you have the choice to arrive at those greedy parts.
A story is a back drop to acquire the greedy needs in a free undetermined way.
That's where this guy doesn't understand the meaning of "grind".
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Yep, but even that hit's *the wall* once you've done/collected it all.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
You never end and certainly don't hit the wall ever in a greedy game.
While a story driven MMO has "the end" and "wall" written all over it.
The extra problem is that with such a story driven MMO, you simply can't go over to an end game, because that would mean you go to the same sequences of video footage without another twist to the story.
To me it shows the man has absolutely no idea why people play MMo's for years on end.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
There is no idea as to what all additional content is in this game. Space confirmed but its depth is not known. Crafting, professions confirmed depth not known. Endgame confirmed for launch, depth not known. I recall WoW launching with no bgs, Two endgame instances (if I recall correctly).
What burned time, collecting low drop rate loot, the extremely long instances, pvp often required travel, difficulty (3 weeks on razorgore....), professions, grinding gold for mount. All this is is basically instant gratification in WoW now. My guild downed Marrowgar first try, it's crazy sad anymore. Anyways, I rant. All SWTOR has to do is release content that is not instant gratification, things to keep you busy even if they're small and some endgame content (as promised). There are these things that keep the game constantly growing as well - updates :P
The biggest question is, will they do it? Remains to be seen.
Edit: Few things that could make this game piss poor like WoW. Achievments, I refuse to use them for my guild, if you don't know the fight, we'll teach you. GS, we refuse to use this, it will never measure a persons ability to play his character. I've encounter people with over 6k gs barely touch 5k dps. People need to be careful with mods, but this one is very very unlikely. Idiots will introduce more idiocy.
Yes.... you do hit *the wall* in a need/greed game. The only games where collection can litterally go on forever are ones with housing and deco, which SW:ToR will not have. We don't even have news on how gear runs will work in later content, and if it's subpar or easy enough to get all you need out of it - the *wall* will be coming. There is nothing in this game, as well as many others, to keep players going after hitting *the wall*. The outcome will be no different than how it has always been.
I like Bioware, but ffs, this is something ALL MMOs DO, and it's not going to change for ToR unless they start thinking about what it really is that keeps people playing for months after doing all there is to do - the answer is always 'maintenance'. Having to keep up on skills (EVE) or collections (SWG). Skilling in ToR will eventually hit a wall as well, no matter how interesting or lengthy it can be.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
There is a point, to get better gear!
But from a story perspective, he is absolutely correct.
For me an mmo with a point to it would involve lots of players existing in a virtual world that changes around them based on their actions. I cant really see that happening when each of those players will simply be experiencing a pre-planned story. Sure they might get to make choices in those stories like a fighting fantasy book but whats "the point" if those stories are simply just that.....stories.
ArenaNet and Trion seem to have a better grip on what an mmo with a point should be with Guildwars 2 and Planes of Telara. I'm a lot more interested in what they are trying to do. Bioware simply seem to be replacing the text files we have been seeing for ages in mmos with voice overs and cinematics.......which is nice of course and certainly more entertaining but it hardly makes it an mmo with a point. Will the choices I make in my "copy" of a particular storyline mean anything for anyone else?
You raise an interesting point here.
Yes, I know having read a number of your posts that you're a hardcore Blizzard/WoW fan and that you'll adjust all your arguments and reasoning to be pro WoW/Blizzard, dismissing any perceived flaws of those by default.
Still, it's an interesting question:
should MMORPG's be more like an immersive storytelling experience, or should they be more like an (e-)sports phenomenon?
It's two different philosophies: one emphasises the 'RPG' aspect of MMORPG and tries to immerse you in its virtual world, with the other you might as well skip the whole leveling and all related world content and make the game a large collection of raid content, dungeons and battlegrounds and link it to ranking ladders and league tournament.
A number of the current MMO's seem to be moving in the direction of the second philosophy, laying the accent on e-sports aspects and end level raid content as the most important part of a MMORPG.
I for one am willing to see how Bioware intends to approach the 'RPG/storytelling' philosophy towards MMORPG's, and see if they'll be successful with the different game mechanics needed for that, also for the long-term enjoyment.
... Bioware won't be the only one trying to enhance upon the 'storytelling/world immersion' philosophy towards MMORPG's, ANet and Funcom are making an attempt towards it as well. I'tll be interesting to see how different all their MMO's will be from the raid/dungeons/e-sports like MMO's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I look forward to seeing how all of them do. I hope every one of them succeed.
Indeed: so much is not known. And WHY it is not known ?
Because they sell the KEY feature. And the KEY feature they tell you is that the game has the most pre recorded voice overs and video of any game ever to "tell you a story".
That's their key feature. Again in this article for the 328th time they tell you this.
The key feature of War was RvR and PvP, the key feature of AoC was realistic graphics and naked boobs, the key feature of Lotro was Middle Earth and PVE.
The key feature of SW: TOR are the HUGE amount of prerecorde voices, cinematics and story TELLING. With the "telling" in cap locked style and coming over from single player games.
Do you need a drawing (or should I say a video with voice over) to even understand what their key feature is ?
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Actually, the devs have clearly stated that the storyline are not required to enjoy the game. It is an open world environment that you can go out and grind kill all day long if u wish. Doing "daily" quests and rehashing old dungeons for gear to pass the time waiting for blizzard to throw u a bone doesnt exactly spell "never ending story" to me. quit hateing
People play MMORPG's not only out of need and greed; maybe it's the case for a lot of the current WoW players right now, but it certainly doesn't apply to all MMO players.
People play MMO's as well for the immersion and community, because their friends are playing it.
To use your car example: there's a lot of people for who their car is most importantly a status symbol to make their neighbours and friends jealous and stroke their ego - personally I find that group usually a sorry, emotionally underdeveloped lot - but there's also a lot of people who have a car because of the comfort and sense of freedom it gives them, and the pleasure they experience of driving to all kinds of interesting places with it, or just cruising.
See? Different motives for enjoyment, not only showing off.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
They're driving it home apparently, and why shouldn't they? This was one of the biggest reasons I was interested in AoC, it had nothing to do with Conan itself. I can't disagree that it would be nice to hear some of the big MMO features, sure they've confirmed them, but some information would be fantastic. However I understand the reasoning behind all this.
They could just tell you everything that makes an MMO, but none of it would be new, people wouldn't be happy, they would still be upset. Questions like "Ok, but what's new?" would be very popular.
They could also just lay out all current ideas on the table. This is where real problems kick in. Promise after promise after promise. They explain how this will work and how that will work, but when it releases, it's nothing like they promised. This is the reason for failure in a lot of cases. It's much smarter to slowly release information when you're sure that's how it's going to be.
I can understand witholding space, crafting, endgame, etc. information, these will be tricky to improve upon. I'm not ready for another mindnumbing crafting system, they should take their time. Space, is going to be difficulty. In my opinion, if they're not sure of launching it on release, then please don't do it. They will be thankful they also withheld the information on this, no body will be upset other then those who expected. But I can only imagine a bit of happiness because BioWare is taking this very seriously.
It is FAR to early to judge this game because of the way they're releasing information. They still have about a year before we're close to picking this game up. I'm thankful they're not overloading us with information that they may change/remove later on.
100% agree.
And the text files became even shorter and shorter over the years (because they are almost insignificant in on line play), while now you'll have to listen to them in minute long NPC voices.
Like I said in an earlier post: 90% of on line players don't even care to read 6 lines of text, now they'll need to listen to 6 minutes of NPC talk.
Great and immersive in solo games, "death" in on line games, because here the interaction with people count, not NPC talk.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Uh yes you DO hit the wall in a greed game. It's BORING to just get on the greed treadmill over and over again. A story driven mmo has "wall" written on it? RIght, because they could never write more stories? Wrong about the end game too. You can indeed do an end game. Your assuming no game play exists outside of the story. It does. Have you even bothered at all to do ANY research on SWTOR? It seems not. They will have raids of some sort, PvP, crafting and other things.
Your post shows to me that you have NO idea what SWTOR is about.
That is correct, every game is a treadmill. The thing is that Bioware is adding not only the typical endgame but a different story for each class, along with different choices that bring about different consequences. I think it'll work quite well together, just need to keep adding content as they go along (even though they've said they have all their games hours of gameplay rolled into TOR). So basically, I agree on the "MMO's are pointless" argument and think that Bioware and the rest of the guys making the story-strong MMO's pull through.
Not really because like any intelligent person if you don't want story perhaps you shouldn't be playing SWTOR? For those who do want story it certainly will not be "death".
Reading is found to be boring by many, there is no visual emotion. Given the choice would you rather read the script of a movie or watch it? I'd rather watch it. But you know, people are different. I wonder what the majority would say.
Actually that isnt the point of mmos for me at all. Afterall I know damn well that no-one gives a shit if I have gained the Epic Sword of Leetness from a super rare boss. How do I know this? Because I couldnt care less if someone else has it. It doesnt impact on my experience of the game. Gaining "stuff" is something to do but it certainly doesnt add any real meaning to the game.
However if someone builds a bridge across a chasm which I can then use to reach a part of the land that was previously inaccessable then I'm gonna notice their achievement. If a group of players destroy a giant beast in the forest and suddenly all the wildlife in the surrounding area turns hostile and ferocious then I'm gonna notice what they did. If some players bribe the centaur chieftain of the plains to attack all Orc players he encounters with his tribe then I'm gonna pay attention to what those players did if I'm an Orc or some of my companions are.
It's called cause and effect. It's what exists in real life. For it to work in mmos it requires dynamic content. Mmos generally dont have this which is why their isnt much point to them. It's also why people become bored with them.
Personal progression is irrelevent if it has no effect on the people around you. Progressing through a story is the purpose of single player games. Thats not what the point of mmos should be. The point of mmos should be to interact with and effect each others gaming experience either directly or inadvertantly.