I'm gonna stick it out with Bioware and continue to be really interested, since I've really enjoyed their single-player games.
But its the unknown of whether they can meld their single-player expertise and story-telling with what should be depth and breadth of massively multiplayer content, dynamic and community-involved content in a persistnet world that has me wondering.
I just love when a newbie developer to the MMO market comes charging in with all these grand statements. For all its successin the single player market, BioWare has little credibility to make such grandiose statements. They haven't proven themselves in the MMO market yet.
Here's the thing...
Every MMO I've ever played has a storyline to go along with the various missions and quests you do. Some are very short and simple and not terribly interesting. Some are long and epic and quite deep (look at the story arcs in Final Fantasy XI for example). I take the time to read the quest dialog and am quite often impressed by the storylines, the lore and even the depth of emotion some of them go into.
The problem?
Many players can't be bothered to read them. For them, the quest begins and ends with "what do I have to do, what's the reward and where's the walk-through to get it done?"
I would bet money that, even with all its voice-acting that BioWare is putting so much emphasis on, if there's a way to skip the cut-scenes and not listen to all the dialog, *many* players will be doing just that. If you can't... expect complaints about having to sit through long, boring dialog that the players couldn't care less about. Not because the dialog is poorly done necessarily; rather because they just want the xp and loot.
Are there those who will appreciate the dialog and such? Of course, just like there are in any other MMO.
I just think BioWare doesn't really understand the market they're entering very well and are overestimating the importance story has to a large portion of MMO players overall. I highly doubt they're going to have much effect on the innumerable players who couldn't care less what horrible fate they are saving the galaxy from or what anyone has to say about it ... Just give them their damn new weapon and let them move on to getting the next one.
You make a good point in that alot of ppl will ignore the lore/story and all the voice acting that will have gone into the game to make it a much more immersive game, and that is why we have so many ppl coming to forums like this to tell all of those who want to feel immersed why this game will suck.
It's a shame that so many just want the "Pot of Gold" at the end of the rainbow, they don't give a crap about the journey to get there, they just want the "Epics", why on earth play these games in the first place? wasn't this genre created so that we could all share in some huge storyline? what happened to the RPG part of the MMO.
I feel sorry for those that rush to max lvl so they can raid 24/7 the end bosses, get them on farm rinse and repeat until the next tier of armour comes out, now thats a bloody boring routine if you ask me.
I'l take story over mindless lvl grinding any day, and yes I do take the time to read the quest dialogue.
Definitely appears to be a good way of looking at it to develop a ground-breaking new MMO, but many developers have stated they thought they were making an MMO with more depth and creativity then the rest. Brad McQuaid's Vanguard and Richard Garriott's Tabula Rasa come to mind. Both were promoted initially as having the depth and content of a single-player game, but neither one effectively did so once we saw the final product. However, I don't blame the devs entirely on those two because I think if they would have spent a lot more time and money before release on finishing the game, we might already have such an MMO.
Bioware just seems to have the advantage because the entire team has years of successful RPGs behind them to both know how to maximize development time efficiently, and the money to spend as long as they want to make a successful game that will always pay off for them with their name recognition. Brad and Richard didn't have a whole team of people follow them, so their names on the products was largely irrelevant.
Even though MMO players are getting accustomed to empty promises, I think Bioware might finally break the mold here because they have those couple advantages over past efforts - not because they are saying anything groundbreakingly new.
I'l take story over mindless lvl grinding any day, and yes I do take the time to read the quest dialogue.
And I`ll take fun gameplay over watching video clips.
Can I have all of the above?
Why not great story, awesome cutscenes, a full on movie type experience co-mingled with enthralling, heart-racing gameplay?
Because the bean-counters say you don`t need all of those to make money.
That's a true statement, however, I would venture that if a company actually decided to go all out on every aspect of an MMO they'd grab subs like crazy.
I'm gonna stick it out with Bioware and continue to be really interested, since I've really enjoyed their single-player games.
But its the unknown of whether they can meld their single-player expertise and story-telling with what should be depth and breadth of massively multiplayer content, dynamic and community-involved content in a persistnet world that has me wondering.
I just love when a newbie developer to the MMO market comes charging in with all these grand statements. For all its successin the single player market, BioWare has little credibility to make such grandiose statements. They haven't proven themselves in the MMO market yet.
Here's the thing...
Every MMO I've ever played has a storyline to go along with the various missions and quests you do. Some are very short and simple and not terribly interesting. Some are long and epic and quite deep (look at the story arcs in Final Fantasy XI for example). I take the time to read the quest dialog and am quite often impressed by the storylines, the lore and even the depth of emotion some of them go into.
The problem?
Many players can't be bothered to read them. For them, the quest begins and ends with "what do I have to do, what's the reward and where's the walk-through to get it done?"
I would bet money that, even with all its voice-acting that BioWare is putting so much emphasis on, if there's a way to skip the cut-scenes and not listen to all the dialog, *many* players will be doing just that. If you can't... expect complaints about having to sit through long, boring dialog that the players couldn't care less about. Not because the dialog is poorly done necessarily; rather because they just want the xp and loot.
Are there those who will appreciate the dialog and such? Of course, just like there are in any other MMO.
I just think BioWare doesn't really understand the market they're entering very well and are overestimating the importance story has to a large portion of MMO players overall. I highly doubt they're going to have much effect on the innumerable players who couldn't care less what horrible fate they are saving the galaxy from or what anyone has to say about it ... Just give them their damn new weapon and let them move on to getting the next one.
You make a good point in that alot of ppl will ignore the lore/story and all the voice acting that will have gone into the game to make it a much more immersive game, and that is why we have so many ppl coming to forums like this to tell all of those who want to feel immersed why this game will suck.
It's a shame that so many just want the "Pot of Gold" at the end of the rainbow, they don't give a crap about the journey to get there, they just want the "Epics", why on earth play these games in the first place? wasn't this genre created so that we could all share in some huge storyline? what happened to the RPG part of the MMO.
I feel sorry for those that rush to max lvl so they can raid 24/7 the end bosses, get them on farm rinse and repeat until the next tier of armour comes out, now thats a bloody boring routine if you ask me.
I'l take story over mindless lvl grinding any day, and yes I do take the time to read the quest dialogue.
Indeed, I'm a fan of reading quests and following the storyline as well.
As I read the various posts in these forums for the past few years, I just recognize that I seem to be in a minority in that regard lol.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
That's a true statement, however, I would venture that if a company actually decided to go all out on every aspect of an MMO they'd grab subs like crazy.
I agree.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Not to mention we are talking about Sprind 2011 at the earliest, in a years time who knows what other games will be out and what sort of story will be in them by then. ToR could launch and already be dated and seem like a copy of other MMO's even more so if it gets delayed.
We know exactly what games are likely to be out, they are all listed on this site. THe only one that you might consider comparible in nature to what SWTOR is doing is The Secret World, which will also be fully voice acted.
ToR isn't even close to comparable with TSW. For one, TSW has no levels or classes.
Read the underline areas and you might understand why pointing that out was kinda stupid.
I'm afraid you're going to have to explain that one to me. ToR has levels and classes, TSW doesn't.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
I want to be excited by this game, but the more I read the less excited I become.
For me, cut scenes and conversations with NPC's take me out of the game and make me feel like an omnipotent spectator. I don't need a voice actor to tell me to go get 10 bear asses. I don't really care about the story (presumably the point of TOR) the devs wrote. I'd rather be given the tools to make my own. Having limited options doesn't count as walking my own path and carving my place in the world. If I want a SPRPG then I'll go play one.
That's a true statement, however, I would venture that if a company actually decided to go all out on every aspect of an MMO they'd grab subs like crazy.
I agree.
But,its not that simple.Going all out would have to include actually having and employing work ethic and skill.The current teams havent shown they have either capability.Taking a code monkey and calling him a "designer" doesnt make him one.
Biowares statements about there being no point to MMOs is pretty much spot on.They are currently "entertainment" for the brain dead,at best.But thats only one among many flaws in MMOs.And partially fixing that one by adding story,is the equivilant to fixing one of the four flat tires on a car thats been repeatedly hit head on by a train.
That argument is getting old, that Bioware is a newbie on the MMO market and doesn't know what it is doing. Blizzard was a newbie on the MMO market, still they managed to come up with the spectacular success that was World of Warcraft.
That the Bioware people don't just want to conform to what other companies and people are thinking what a MMO should be, well, good for them.
Actually I'm glad that upcoming MMO's like GW2, ToR and TSW all put a deeper emphasis on storytelling, all in their own way. Clearly the companies behind those MMO's saw that there was something missing in the current MMO's and chose to take a different path than just making another clone.
And hopefully their approach will filter out the crowd that doesn't give shit about lore in a game, that clicks away quest text as soon as it comes up, that's not interested in any storytelling, that thinks that leveling is just a bothersome delay to the juicy stuff that is the end level game, and that is convinced that end raids and epic gear is the best part of MMORPG's.
For those people there'll always be WoW and sortlike games.
We don't need other WoW clones in game mechanics, we've seen what MMO games that produces the last few years.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'l take story over mindless lvl grinding any day, and yes I do take the time to read the quest dialogue.
And I`ll take fun gameplay over watching video clips.
Considering you play these forums like a WoW addict I think we all know what constitutes fun gameplay in your mind.
Pass.
Originally posted by MMO_Doubter Watching cutscenes is not playing a game. MMO devs are incredibly stupid. People play games for gameplay. They read books or watch movies for story.
Heavy Rain says hi2u.
It also says you're not a game developer. And the world is a better place for it.
I haven't made up my mind of SWTOR just yet, but I think Bioware is premature in telling others how to do things in a field they've not even proven themselves in yet. MMOs are an entirely different beast to tame here. Their arrogance is does not instill confidence in me.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
This could be the very reason why the game may not do so well. My fear now is that they entirely miss the point of why mmo'ers play mmo's instead of single player games.
Having a compelling story is great, but people choose to skip over the story in these games to save time and get right back into the "action", and more importantly since there is no in-game impact on even being aware of a world or quests background.
I doubt bioware can change the impact of knowing the story. Unless of course the "single player" parts of the game go the way of Mass Effect in creating deeply unique outcomes from the choices you make, that's about the only way knowledge of the story would even matter.
I haven't made up my mind of SWTOR just yet, but I think Bioware is premature in telling others how to do things in a field they've not even proven themselves in yet. MMOs are an entirely different beast to tame here. Their arrogance is does not instill confidence in me.
Exactly my thoughts. Bioware is in for a rude awakening when they see just how unforgiving mmo players can be. Bioware makes interesting and fun single player games, but they better deliver with ToR, or all of these comments will come back to haunt them.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Link, or it's just hearsay. What I do see them saying is that they want to invest heavily into enhancing the story, that's why all these posters in this thread - like you - are riled up about, not about the "phat lewt".
Even then, I'm not as some WoW or Blizzard fanbois - or fanbois from other MMO's - that can only see the good things of "their" MMO or company and idolize it. I'm underwhelmed as well about the information Bioware has released so far. ANet seems to have their talk ready in a far better way, even Funcom talks better for their upcoming TSW.
But what I am is willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see where their vision will lead them, instead of condemning them beforehand like a bunch of posters here just because of some released game info that doesn't suit my former experiences with MMO's.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
MMO devs are incredibly stupid. People play games for gameplay. They read books or watch movies for story.
Actually people play RPGs for the story, which is why Bioware has made a killing over the last decade. Their games have never had "great" gameplay, in fact outside of Mass Effect their combat systems have been pretty weak. But numbers don't lie, their games are some of the best selling PC games in the last 10 years.
And people don't play MMOs for gameplay, because MMOs in generally have realitively weak gameplay. If you want great gameplay, you play console games like Gods of War, or FPS games like Call of Duty, or one of those crazy technicial fighting games, or even a RTS games like Starcraft 2.
People play MMOs because they are persistant, and they allow you to build a character within a world thats shared by other people. That's the MMOs appeal. They are a world within a world.
You are incredibly naive if you think that people don't play games for the storyline. How many millions of copies of games like Heavy Rain, Mass Effect, Dragon's Age, etc etc etc have to sale before your realize that books and movies aren't the only thing that sale story.
Link, or it's just hearsay. What I do see them saying is that they want to invest heavily into enhancing the story, that's why all these posters in this thread - like you - are riled up about, not about the "phat lewt".
Sigh. And when I find it and post, 1/2 a dozen posters wil say"I don't care". Like you are saying right now. You don't care about the truth.
So, to hell with that. Let one of the experts post it - after they compose some excuse to go along with it.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
MMO devs are incredibly stupid. People play games for gameplay. They read books or watch movies for story.
Actually people play RPGs for the story, which is why Bioware has made a killing over the last decade. Their games have never had "great" gameplay, in fact outside of Mass Effect their combat systems have been pretty weak. But numbers don't lie, their games are some of the best selling PC games in the last 10 years.
And people don't play MMOs for gameplay, because MMOs in generally have realitively weak gameplay. If you want great gameplay, you play console games like Gods of War, or FPS games like Call of Duty, or one of those crazy technicial fighting games, or even a RTS games like Starcraft 2.
People play MMOs because they are persistant, and they allow you to build a character within a world thats shared by other people. That's the MMOs appeal. They are a world within a world.
You are incredibly naive if you think that people don't play games for the storyline. How many millions of copies of games like Heavy Rain, Mass Effect, Dragon's Age, etc etc etc have to sale before your realize that books and movies aren't the only thing that sale story.
Ok ...Let's see where this comes from:
1. Gameplay first.
2. Players should be PLAYING as much of the story as possible, not reading or listening to it.
reference: Games Developers Conference, San Fransisco, CA May 2010 - Rob Pardo.
Apparently 2 different egos, but this one already made the hit, let's see if all those on line players are paying to watch movies like Bioware thinks.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
"Of course all of the other elements of traditional MMOs are there, so after I'm done talking to my mentor in the catina to get my quest line, I'm going to run out into hutta and beat a bunch of enemies and explore alot, get phat loot etc."
Comments
You make a good point in that alot of ppl will ignore the lore/story and all the voice acting that will have gone into the game to make it a much more immersive game, and that is why we have so many ppl coming to forums like this to tell all of those who want to feel immersed why this game will suck.
It's a shame that so many just want the "Pot of Gold" at the end of the rainbow, they don't give a crap about the journey to get there, they just want the "Epics", why on earth play these games in the first place? wasn't this genre created so that we could all share in some huge storyline? what happened to the RPG part of the MMO.
I feel sorry for those that rush to max lvl so they can raid 24/7 the end bosses, get them on farm rinse and repeat until the next tier of armour comes out, now thats a bloody boring routine if you ask me.
I'l take story over mindless lvl grinding any day, and yes I do take the time to read the quest dialogue.
And I`ll take fun gameplay over watching video clips.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Definitely appears to be a good way of looking at it to develop a ground-breaking new MMO, but many developers have stated they thought they were making an MMO with more depth and creativity then the rest. Brad McQuaid's Vanguard and Richard Garriott's Tabula Rasa come to mind. Both were promoted initially as having the depth and content of a single-player game, but neither one effectively did so once we saw the final product. However, I don't blame the devs entirely on those two because I think if they would have spent a lot more time and money before release on finishing the game, we might already have such an MMO.
Bioware just seems to have the advantage because the entire team has years of successful RPGs behind them to both know how to maximize development time efficiently, and the money to spend as long as they want to make a successful game that will always pay off for them with their name recognition. Brad and Richard didn't have a whole team of people follow them, so their names on the products was largely irrelevant.
Even though MMO players are getting accustomed to empty promises, I think Bioware might finally break the mold here because they have those couple advantages over past efforts - not because they are saying anything groundbreakingly new.
Can I have all of the above?
Why not great story, awesome cutscenes, a full on movie type experience co-mingled with enthralling, heart-racing gameplay?
Because the bean-counters say you don`t need all of those to make money.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
That's a true statement, however, I would venture that if a company actually decided to go all out on every aspect of an MMO they'd grab subs like crazy.
Indeed, I'm a fan of reading quests and following the storyline as well.
As I read the various posts in these forums for the past few years, I just recognize that I seem to be in a minority in that regard lol.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I agree.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I'm afraid you're going to have to explain that one to me. ToR has levels and classes, TSW doesn't.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
I want to be excited by this game, but the more I read the less excited I become.
For me, cut scenes and conversations with NPC's take me out of the game and make me feel like an omnipotent spectator. I don't need a voice actor to tell me to go get 10 bear asses. I don't really care about the story (presumably the point of TOR) the devs wrote. I'd rather be given the tools to make my own. Having limited options doesn't count as walking my own path and carving my place in the world. If I want a SPRPG then I'll go play one.
But,its not that simple.Going all out would have to include actually having and employing work ethic and skill.The current teams havent shown they have either capability.Taking a code monkey and calling him a "designer" doesnt make him one.
Biowares statements about there being no point to MMOs is pretty much spot on.They are currently "entertainment" for the brain dead,at best.But thats only one among many flaws in MMOs.And partially fixing that one by adding story,is the equivilant to fixing one of the four flat tires on a car thats been repeatedly hit head on by a train.
That argument is getting old, that Bioware is a newbie on the MMO market and doesn't know what it is doing. Blizzard was a newbie on the MMO market, still they managed to come up with the spectacular success that was World of Warcraft.
That the Bioware people don't just want to conform to what other companies and people are thinking what a MMO should be, well, good for them.
Actually I'm glad that upcoming MMO's like GW2, ToR and TSW all put a deeper emphasis on storytelling, all in their own way. Clearly the companies behind those MMO's saw that there was something missing in the current MMO's and chose to take a different path than just making another clone.
And hopefully their approach will filter out the crowd that doesn't give shit about lore in a game, that clicks away quest text as soon as it comes up, that's not interested in any storytelling, that thinks that leveling is just a bothersome delay to the juicy stuff that is the end level game, and that is convinced that end raids and epic gear is the best part of MMORPG's.
For those people there'll always be WoW and sortlike games.
We don't need other WoW clones in game mechanics, we've seen what MMO games that produces the last few years.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Considering you play these forums like a WoW addict I think we all know what constitutes fun gameplay in your mind.
Pass.
Heavy Rain says hi2u.
It also says you're not a game developer. And the world is a better place for it.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
I haven't made up my mind of SWTOR just yet, but I think Bioware is premature in telling others how to do things in a field they've not even proven themselves in yet. MMOs are an entirely different beast to tame here. Their arrogance is does not instill confidence in me.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
And when one of the SWTOR devs says 'our game is all about phat lewt.'?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
This could be the very reason why the game may not do so well. My fear now is that they entirely miss the point of why mmo'ers play mmo's instead of single player games.
Having a compelling story is great, but people choose to skip over the story in these games to save time and get right back into the "action", and more importantly since there is no in-game impact on even being aware of a world or quests background.
I doubt bioware can change the impact of knowing the story. Unless of course the "single player" parts of the game go the way of Mass Effect in creating deeply unique outcomes from the choices you make, that's about the only way knowledge of the story would even matter.
Exactly my thoughts. Bioware is in for a rude awakening when they see just how unforgiving mmo players can be. Bioware makes interesting and fun single player games, but they better deliver with ToR, or all of these comments will come back to haunt them.
They haven't said that, they said (one of) their emphasis would be storytelling. What is your point?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Yes. In one of the interviews, one of the devs DID say that.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Link, or it's just hearsay. What I do see them saying is that they want to invest heavily into enhancing the story, that's why all these posters in this thread - like you - are riled up about, not about the "phat lewt".
Even then, I'm not as some WoW or Blizzard fanbois - or fanbois from other MMO's - that can only see the good things of "their" MMO or company and idolize it. I'm underwhelmed as well about the information Bioware has released so far. ANet seems to have their talk ready in a far better way, even Funcom talks better for their upcoming TSW.
But what I am is willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see where their vision will lead them, instead of condemning them beforehand like a bunch of posters here just because of some released game info that doesn't suit my former experiences with MMO's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Actually people play RPGs for the story, which is why Bioware has made a killing over the last decade. Their games have never had "great" gameplay, in fact outside of Mass Effect their combat systems have been pretty weak. But numbers don't lie, their games are some of the best selling PC games in the last 10 years.
And people don't play MMOs for gameplay, because MMOs in generally have realitively weak gameplay. If you want great gameplay, you play console games like Gods of War, or FPS games like Call of Duty, or one of those crazy technicial fighting games, or even a RTS games like Starcraft 2.
People play MMOs because they are persistant, and they allow you to build a character within a world thats shared by other people. That's the MMOs appeal. They are a world within a world.
You are incredibly naive if you think that people don't play games for the storyline. How many millions of copies of games like Heavy Rain, Mass Effect, Dragon's Age, etc etc etc have to sale before your realize that books and movies aren't the only thing that sale story.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Ok ...Let's see where this comes from:
1. Gameplay first.
2. Players should be PLAYING as much of the story as possible, not reading or listening to it.
reference: Games Developers Conference, San Fransisco, CA May 2010 - Rob Pardo.
Apparently 2 different egos, but this one already made the hit, let's see if all those on line players are paying to watch movies like Bioware thinks.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Wrong, as usual.
2:27
"Of course all of the other elements of traditional MMOs are there, so after I'm done talking to my mentor in the catina to get my quest line, I'm going to run out into hutta and beat a bunch of enemies and explore alot, get phat loot etc."
All about the phat loot? You're horrible at this.
It will be very interesting to see if Bioware can live up to the hype they are creating about this game.