Pretty much every MMO today can be solo'd from 1-finish. BioWare HAS already stated that typical MMO style end game will be there (instances requiring groups to complete).
I know a ton of people who don't chat, group, or even get into a guild until they have their character capped out, in fact, that seems to be more the norm anymore as finding groups to do things in MMO's with pre-endgame is a pain in the ass. Nobody wants to do it. When people are running around doing there quests, they don't want to group and share mob xp and loot with other people.
So how is adding a story line going to alter what is already there for the worse?
Add to that.. Nobody from BioWare has yet to say that the personal story is mandatory.. So, then what is going to stop you from just grouping with your friends and tackling it in the old-school fashion?? Just becasue the story is there, doesn't mean you have to participate. Sure, you'll miss out on a great story, but hey, you have your old school play style.
You all are so convinced that your ideas and idea of what makes a great MMO are so correct, that you can't even fathom the possibility that something that ISN'T what you think as ideal or perfect, might still be a very good thing.
All you have to do is think outside the box a little.. Shouldn't be hard for educated people, which everybody here likes to present themselves as.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Pretty much every MMO today can be solo'd from 1-finish. BioWare HAS already stated that typical MMO style end game will be there (instances requiring groups to complete).
While it's possible to play some MMOs from start to finish (based on nothing but level numbers), there are still large, in some games very large amounts of content that require groups, not just raids. I remain served about what Bioware can and will do. I can't judge what I haven't seen or played. I can only voice my opinion based on what is being told and what i might expect. I still stand by the idea that the people who are skeptical or no more right or wrong than the people that are eager and optismistic. Because of the string of MMO's released lately, I am simply more skeptical. I just don't trust the MMO industry to tell it like it is anymore.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Oh, don't be a pussy by backing out. Your argument "Bioware is all about the phat lewt" was irrelevant to this discussion,
I did not say that, so don't you dare put it in quotes. I said one of the devs said the game was about phat lewt.
You made a claim that Bioware was going away from the typical MMO design. I posted something that indicates that that claim was mistaken.
and you know it. It was nothing more than a weak trick to prove that "people like me" don't care about the truth, and that you do.
To hell with that. If you don't like where Bioware is going with ToR and want to go on ranting how "wrong they're doing things" even without giving them any benefit of the doubt, then why don't you just give up on ToR and move on? Clearly you don't like the game even while it's not even out yet. You've been saying in other posts that people shouldn't buy into any hype but wait when the game or beta arrives, but you've been doing exactly the same, only from the other side: condemning and scorning games before even a beta has arrived.
I judge based on the information available. If I see something I like, then I will comment on that, as well.
Everyone here is judging the game. One way or the other.
I agree.
We are commenting and drawing conclusion on the images and footage that we have seen, the statements made by developers and our own collective experience, which is pretty wide, of playing MMOs.
From what I have seen, there is a vast disconnect between the game experience so far displayed and the public statements of the studio representatives. They talk about an 'open world' - but all we have seen so far are closed platforms and limited pathways. They talk about infinite choices and customisation - but they show us toons that all look the the same and companions whose appearance does not seem to vary. They say that this is a real mmorpg and yet they talk about it as if it were an sprpg online - and show only srpg online feature. True, they have talked about 'auction houses', 'open worlds' and 'free roaming' but I haven't seen any evidence of this. There's a year to launch and, you know what?, that's not very long at all.
More to the point, do you trust the developers? I am sure that many of you do. I personally don't.
Gordon Walton was at SOE, and was the man behind the CU. More importantly, amongst the key public spokesmen for SWTORtoday are Dallas Dickinson, Julio Torres and Jake Neri. These men were up to their necks in the NGE and they lied about it through their teeth to us, their paying customers. That's right. Plain and simple lies.
So why why should we trust what these people tell us SWTOR is really going to be like? They have one objective - to make us buy boxes. If two million of us buy a SWTOR box for $60 a pop before launch, that is the game's development costs pretty much covered instantly. If only one million of us play for three months after launch for $10 a month, that's another thirty million right there. I'd say the SWTOR team has a pretty good motive to tell us anything we want to hear to buy the game.
So, they took a look at the first 20 levels of AOC, saw the praise it garnered from "some" people and decided that's what the world needed, more story telling throughout the entire leveling experience.
And they consider this to be the point of MMORPG gaming?
Seems like some folks never played EVE over there.
They probably use the normal windows screen saver.
I find your comments in this thread to be really ironic. You cut other people down for having opinions in opposition to your own, you're over all insulting to whatever poster you respond to in almost every comment you make, and yet you complain about the "complainers" and "negativity." O.o Then you go on to insult other games just, seemingly, for the sheer joy you derive from being insulting.
I realize that you must think a lot of people that are discussing their views on ToR and the developers' way of presenting....are "trolls," but I suggest to you that your own behavior and attitude exemplified in your posts....appears rather trollish in it's own right. Your snide comment about EVE....is no different than the comments others have made about your pet game here. Well...other than the fact that they are giving actual REASONS why they think ToR isn't going to hit the mark....and YOU simply gravitate to more one liner jabs with NO statement of reasoning.
It's a very interesting forum wrtiting style you have. Hmph.
Maybe Bioware isn't doing anything incredibly revolutionary, but neither have any of the games you've mentioned. How does using REALLY outdated game mechanics from titles like EQ equal new or innovative? Most gamers today don't have the time or patience to enjoy games like these. Its no wonder that they all fail miserably in comparison to the more accessible games.
EDIT: Before anyone mentions EVE, please note that I consider that game to be the one exception to the rule. EVE is a game that manages to be hardcore, old-school AND accessible all at the same time.
I would say that eve is an anomaly in itself. They did not set out to be the biggest game on the market, they wanted to make a small game that was different and unique and fulfilled a specific niche. Looking at old school numbers I think eve, right now, is about on the par (subscription wise) as SWG was in its heyday. I would also say that Eve has one of the most rabid of fanbases. There is not a major mmo out there today that would, I believe, be able to retain let alone grow subs given the handful of completely vagrant and immoral actions of people on CCP's staff (the whole providing bonuses and kickbacks etc to large corps, even being parts of them I think BOB was one of the largest scandals to break?) And it has taken them several years to get to the point that they are at today. Fallen Earth, hell even Darkfall might (in several years time) make it to the several hundred thousand subscription numbers.
The things that I personally hate about eve are things that they added to AOC (off line leveling?!?!?! really? You get to level without even playing the damn game just pay a sub fee and we'll give you levels/skills, thats so hardcore /sarcasm).
Yet the point of Eve is no different than that of wow. Keep chasing the carrot on the stick and paying for the privelege.
Personally I look forward to TOR for one reason and one alone: to see and participate in the story that they have come up with.
I remember that facing Illidan or lich king meant more for some peoples than facing a random boss. It was in some way epic killing Lich for the first time so no, story is not only fluff in a mmo and the success of wow shows it. You can't deny that a big bonus for this game's success is it's lore.
I absolutely deny that story is a major factor in WoW's success. Very few players care about it.
I would guess that most current players have never played WC3, and so would not know who Arthas is - other than being the top raid boss.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I remember that facing Illidan or lich king meant more for some peoples than facing a random boss. It was in some way epic killing Lich for the first time so no, story is not only fluff in a mmo and the success of wow shows it. You can't deny that a big bonus for this game's success is it's lore.
I absolutely deny that story is a major factor in WoW's success. Very few players care about it.
I would guess that most current players have never played WC3, and so would not know who Arthas is - other than being the top raid boss.
Actually, that's not quite so. Whevener I used to do Stratholme, I always used to shout out: 'Let's kill Arthas now, while he's weak!' and always got a good laugh from the rest of the group which implies they knew a little something about the Lich-King-to-be. I think most people know who Arthas was - but a lot of the lesser characters, like Illidan or Kael'thelaz (sp?) are, as you say, absolutely meaningless except as end-raid bosses. In fact, I played WOW for three years and I don't have a clue as to their place in lore.
I remember that facing Illidan or lich king meant more for some peoples than facing a random boss. It was in some way epic killing Lich for the first time so no, story is not only fluff in a mmo and the success of wow shows it. You can't deny that a big bonus for this game's success is it's lore.
I absolutely deny that story is a major factor in WoW's success. Very few players care about it.
I would guess that most current players have never played WC3, and so would not know who Arthas is - other than being the top raid boss.
Maybe but in my experience most peoples I played with knew at least the basic of the lore. I guess it depends on who you're playing with. For me personally the story of wow is captivating and I enjoy going through quests and understanding what's going on. Guess I'm a minority then.
Actually, that's not quite so. Whevener I used to do Stratholme, I always used to shout out: 'Let's kill Arthas now, while he's weak!' and always got a good laugh from the rest of the group which implies they knew a little something about the Lich-King-to-be.
And when were you running Strat?
In PUGs or with a guild?
I think most people know who Arthas was - but a lot of the lesser characters, like Illidan or Kael'thelaz (sp?) are, as you say, absolutely meaningless except as end-raid bosses. In fact, I played WOW for three years and I don't have a clue as to their place in lore.
I still don't know who most of them are, and I did play WC3. Not saying the info wasn't there in WoW, but it certainly wasn't needed.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Maybe but in my experience most peoples I played with knew at least the basic of the lore. I guess it depends on who you're playing with. For me personally the story of wow is captivating and I enjoy going through quests and understanding what's going on. Guess I'm a minority then.
Among current players? Yes, I think you probably are.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Maybe but in my experience most peoples I played with knew at least the basic of the lore. I guess it depends on who you're playing with. For me personally the story of wow is captivating and I enjoy going through quests and understanding what's going on. Guess I'm a minority then.
Among current players? Yes, I think you probably are.
I don't care though as long as there is enough stuff for peoples like me that play in a story. Wow offers a story to me and other things to other players. For me personally story is a big feature in a game and that's what matters at least for me.
What's funny is I bet this whole story element is basically just kill quests with the convo wheel of Mass Effect lol.
Of course.. but unlike usually, it's not "go to point A, kill 10 mobs there, go back to questgiver" and more likely "go from point A to point B, killing mobs along the way with few cutscenes."
Much better, imo.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Actually, that's not quite so. Whevener I used to do Stratholme, I always used to shout out: 'Let's kill Arthas now, while he's weak!' and always got a good laugh from the rest of the group which implies they knew a little something about the Lich-King-to-be.
And when were you running Strat?
In PUGs or with a guild?
I think most people know who Arthas was - but a lot of the lesser characters, like Illidan or Kael'thelaz (sp?) are, as you say, absolutely meaningless except as end-raid bosses. In fact, I played WOW for three years and I don't have a clue as to their place in lore.
I still don't know who most of them are, and I did play WC3. Not saying the info wasn't there in WoW, but it certainly wasn't needed.
I don't know how you can't know most of the characters in WoW if you actually paid attention while playing the Warcraft series. They've all been plucked from previous games and you'll know all the names of locations, npcs and factions in the game. It was a Warcraft fans dream to see all of that in a world.
What I didn't like was when they started to advance the story within the game, killing off main characters from previous games. I felt cheated because it should have been told in WC4 or whatever, especially killing off Arthas.
What I didn't like was when they started to advance the story within the game, killing off main characters from previous games. I felt cheated because it should have been told in WC4 or whatever, especially killing off Arthas.
Then quoting bioware, what would the purpose of wow be if you couldnt advance the story? Just a tourist in the world of warcraft?
The AoC game director chimed in on this on his blog today too, interesting read. He talks a lot about the player story and how important it is to the MMO along with the story the devs tell.
Personally I am both excited and skeptical by Bioware. They make good stories, but like many here I really worry they will miss the actual MMO part.
The AoC game director chimed in on this on his blog today too, interesting read. He talks a lot about the player story and how important it is to the MMO along with the story the devs tell.
Personally I am both excited and skeptical by Bioware. They make good stories, but like many here I really worry they will miss the actual MMO part.
That guy sounds like he could turn a trip to the toilet for a dump a story.
he hit the nail on the head about the world being the most important. The MAIN reason I'm going to play this game becuase of it being set in the Star Wars universe. Guild Wars sounds interesting, but I'm not excited by it because the world just seem like a lotro/wow fantasy setting, and thats boring me now.
That guy sounds like he could turn a trip to the toilet for a dump a story.
he hit the nail on the head about the world being the most important. The MAIN reason I'm going to play this game becuase of it being set in the Star Wars universe.
Say hi to Han, Luke, and Chewy for me.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
That guy sounds like he could turn a trip to the toilet for a dump a story.
he hit the nail on the head about the world being the most important. The MAIN reason I'm going to play this game becuase of it being set in the Star Wars universe.
I don't know how you can't know most of the characters in WoW if you actually paid attention while playing the Warcraft series. They've all been plucked from previous games and you'll know all the names of locations, npcs and factions in the game. It was a Warcraft fans dream to see all of that in a world.
What I didn't like was when they started to advance the story within the game, killing off main characters from previous games. I felt cheated because it should have been told in WC4 or whatever, especially killing off Arthas.
First off - I was a Warcraft player, not a Warcraft fan. I have never been a fan of anything - not in the obssessive internet sense, anyway.
I watched the story play out as I went through the campaign, but games generally stink as a story-telling medium, and RTS games are particularly poor at it.
As for killing Arthas - I never got there, but doing it in WoW would have been far more immersive and exciting than doing it in an RTS.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Oh dear. Actually let me guess. You sit in the camp of "Anything not involved with the Star Wars films, books, cartoons that I like is not part of the Star Wars universe."?
Oh dear. Actually let me guess. You sit in the camp of "Anything not involved with the Star Wars films, books, cartoons that I like is not part of the Star Wars universe."?
No. I'm in the camp of "if it isn't the same time setting as the movies, it isn't Star Wars."
You and I both know that SWTOR is KOTOR - the MMO.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Star Wars is set space. There is no space combat in SW:TOR. Name one Star Wars movie that had zero space combat scenes. Bioware is intentionally leaving out a MAJOR part of the Star Wars universe, being the universe part.
What you will get to see of space in SW:TOR is maybe if you are lucky some reused flight paths between planets.
Comments
Pretty much every MMO today can be solo'd from 1-finish. BioWare HAS already stated that typical MMO style end game will be there (instances requiring groups to complete).
I know a ton of people who don't chat, group, or even get into a guild until they have their character capped out, in fact, that seems to be more the norm anymore as finding groups to do things in MMO's with pre-endgame is a pain in the ass. Nobody wants to do it. When people are running around doing there quests, they don't want to group and share mob xp and loot with other people.
So how is adding a story line going to alter what is already there for the worse?
Add to that.. Nobody from BioWare has yet to say that the personal story is mandatory.. So, then what is going to stop you from just grouping with your friends and tackling it in the old-school fashion?? Just becasue the story is there, doesn't mean you have to participate. Sure, you'll miss out on a great story, but hey, you have your old school play style.
You all are so convinced that your ideas and idea of what makes a great MMO are so correct, that you can't even fathom the possibility that something that ISN'T what you think as ideal or perfect, might still be a very good thing.
All you have to do is think outside the box a little.. Shouldn't be hard for educated people, which everybody here likes to present themselves as.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
While it's possible to play some MMOs from start to finish (based on nothing but level numbers), there are still large, in some games very large amounts of content that require groups, not just raids. I remain served about what Bioware can and will do. I can't judge what I haven't seen or played. I can only voice my opinion based on what is being told and what i might expect. I still stand by the idea that the people who are skeptical or no more right or wrong than the people that are eager and optismistic. Because of the string of MMO's released lately, I am simply more skeptical. I just don't trust the MMO industry to tell it like it is anymore.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I agree.
We are commenting and drawing conclusion on the images and footage that we have seen, the statements made by developers and our own collective experience, which is pretty wide, of playing MMOs.
From what I have seen, there is a vast disconnect between the game experience so far displayed and the public statements of the studio representatives. They talk about an 'open world' - but all we have seen so far are closed platforms and limited pathways. They talk about infinite choices and customisation - but they show us toons that all look the the same and companions whose appearance does not seem to vary. They say that this is a real mmorpg and yet they talk about it as if it were an sprpg online - and show only srpg online feature. True, they have talked about 'auction houses', 'open worlds' and 'free roaming' but I haven't seen any evidence of this. There's a year to launch and, you know what?, that's not very long at all.
More to the point, do you trust the developers? I am sure that many of you do. I personally don't.
Gordon Walton was at SOE, and was the man behind the CU. More importantly, amongst the key public spokesmen for SWTORtoday are Dallas Dickinson, Julio Torres and Jake Neri. These men were up to their necks in the NGE and they lied about it through their teeth to us, their paying customers. That's right. Plain and simple lies.
So why why should we trust what these people tell us SWTOR is really going to be like? They have one objective - to make us buy boxes. If two million of us buy a SWTOR box for $60 a pop before launch, that is the game's development costs pretty much covered instantly. If only one million of us play for three months after launch for $10 a month, that's another thirty million right there. I'd say the SWTOR team has a pretty good motive to tell us anything we want to hear to buy the game.
I find your comments in this thread to be really ironic. You cut other people down for having opinions in opposition to your own, you're over all insulting to whatever poster you respond to in almost every comment you make, and yet you complain about the "complainers" and "negativity." O.o Then you go on to insult other games just, seemingly, for the sheer joy you derive from being insulting.
I realize that you must think a lot of people that are discussing their views on ToR and the developers' way of presenting....are "trolls," but I suggest to you that your own behavior and attitude exemplified in your posts....appears rather trollish in it's own right. Your snide comment about EVE....is no different than the comments others have made about your pet game here. Well...other than the fact that they are giving actual REASONS why they think ToR isn't going to hit the mark....and YOU simply gravitate to more one liner jabs with NO statement of reasoning.
It's a very interesting forum wrtiting style you have. Hmph.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I would say that eve is an anomaly in itself. They did not set out to be the biggest game on the market, they wanted to make a small game that was different and unique and fulfilled a specific niche. Looking at old school numbers I think eve, right now, is about on the par (subscription wise) as SWG was in its heyday. I would also say that Eve has one of the most rabid of fanbases. There is not a major mmo out there today that would, I believe, be able to retain let alone grow subs given the handful of completely vagrant and immoral actions of people on CCP's staff (the whole providing bonuses and kickbacks etc to large corps, even being parts of them I think BOB was one of the largest scandals to break?) And it has taken them several years to get to the point that they are at today. Fallen Earth, hell even Darkfall might (in several years time) make it to the several hundred thousand subscription numbers.
The things that I personally hate about eve are things that they added to AOC (off line leveling?!?!?! really? You get to level without even playing the damn game just pay a sub fee and we'll give you levels/skills, thats so hardcore /sarcasm).
Yet the point of Eve is no different than that of wow. Keep chasing the carrot on the stick and paying for the privelege.
Personally I look forward to TOR for one reason and one alone: to see and participate in the story that they have come up with.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
I absolutely deny that story is a major factor in WoW's success. Very few players care about it.
I would guess that most current players have never played WC3, and so would not know who Arthas is - other than being the top raid boss.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Actually, that's not quite so. Whevener I used to do Stratholme, I always used to shout out: 'Let's kill Arthas now, while he's weak!' and always got a good laugh from the rest of the group which implies they knew a little something about the Lich-King-to-be. I think most people know who Arthas was - but a lot of the lesser characters, like Illidan or Kael'thelaz (sp?) are, as you say, absolutely meaningless except as end-raid bosses. In fact, I played WOW for three years and I don't have a clue as to their place in lore.
Maybe but in my experience most peoples I played with knew at least the basic of the lore. I guess it depends on who you're playing with. For me personally the story of wow is captivating and I enjoy going through quests and understanding what's going on. Guess I'm a minority then.
I still don't know who most of them are, and I did play WC3. Not saying the info wasn't there in WoW, but it certainly wasn't needed.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Among current players? Yes, I think you probably are.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I don't care though as long as there is enough stuff for peoples like me that play in a story. Wow offers a story to me and other things to other players. For me personally story is a big feature in a game and that's what matters at least for me.
Good, because eventually, every traditional MMO sucks sweaty, stank ass.
Yes, I have anger issues. They taste like chocolate bunnies.
What's funny is I bet this whole story element is basically just kill quests with the convo wheel of Mass Effect lol.
Of course.. but unlike usually, it's not "go to point A, kill 10 mobs there, go back to questgiver" and more likely "go from point A to point B, killing mobs along the way with few cutscenes."
Much better, imo.
I don't know how you can't know most of the characters in WoW if you actually paid attention while playing the Warcraft series. They've all been plucked from previous games and you'll know all the names of locations, npcs and factions in the game. It was a Warcraft fans dream to see all of that in a world.
What I didn't like was when they started to advance the story within the game, killing off main characters from previous games. I felt cheated because it should have been told in WC4 or whatever, especially killing off Arthas.
Then quoting bioware, what would the purpose of wow be if you couldnt advance the story? Just a tourist in the world of warcraft?
The AoC game director chimed in on this on his blog today too, interesting read. He talks a lot about the player story and how important it is to the MMO along with the story the devs tell.
Personally I am both excited and skeptical by Bioware. They make good stories, but like many here I really worry they will miss the actual MMO part.
That guy sounds like he could turn a trip to the toilet for a dump a story.
he hit the nail on the head about the world being the most important. The MAIN reason I'm going to play this game becuase of it being set in the Star Wars universe. Guild Wars sounds interesting, but I'm not excited by it because the world just seem like a lotro/wow fantasy setting, and thats boring me now.
Say hi to Han, Luke, and Chewy for me.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Wrong game.
First off - I was a Warcraft player, not a Warcraft fan. I have never been a fan of anything - not in the obssessive internet sense, anyway.
I watched the story play out as I went through the campaign, but games generally stink as a story-telling medium, and RTS games are particularly poor at it.
As for killing Arthas - I never got there, but doing it in WoW would have been far more immersive and exciting than doing it in an RTS.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Wrong universe.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Oh dear. Actually let me guess. You sit in the camp of "Anything not involved with the Star Wars films, books, cartoons that I like is not part of the Star Wars universe."?
No. I'm in the camp of "if it isn't the same time setting as the movies, it isn't Star Wars."
You and I both know that SWTOR is KOTOR - the MMO.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Star Wars is set space. There is no space combat in SW:TOR. Name one Star Wars movie that had zero space combat scenes. Bioware is intentionally leaving out a MAJOR part of the Star Wars universe, being the universe part.
What you will get to see of space in SW:TOR is maybe if you are lucky some reused flight paths between planets.