What he says sounds all good and dandy, as an ex-pen 'n' paper role player I totally get it, but what about when the story runs out? There are still people playing WoW now that started from launch, you can say what you like but that's some achievement and it's kinda also what MMOs are about. Are Bioware going to write 6 years or more of continuous story? Ouch, EA are gonna have to dig REAL deep.
MMOs are not about pre written quests. Pre written storyes. And never changing pre set world.
They are not just single player RPGs that can be played with other players on internet.
There is a reason why original MMOs didnt have story - because it was your story -
The MMOs are blank slate in order for player to write their own story, and to mold the world , change it.
Colectively create the story line together.
But that is all lost. Thanks to guys like you.
First, NO, its thanks to the playerbase. Not the developers. They have a job to do which is to produce a product that will sell to as many people as possible and to provide the majority with entertainment. Don't like it? UO and SWG are still there. Have at em. Maybe if there were enough of you to cause a revival of one of those games then publishers and developers would say yeah, we can throw $150 million to make a sandbox and be able to reap a profit before the turn of the next millenium.
And, having played a whole helluva lot of these mmos, all of your player run "events" turned out to be worse than an episode of a daytime soap opera and excluded anyone and everyone else that do not want to be extra number 32 in your PRE-WRITTEN STORYLINE.
And, yes, yes they are about a relatively unchanged world. Who the hell are you to dictate to everyone else that plays on a server how they will play and what they can do? Ok so you want to blow up ice crown citadel. Go in defeat the lich king and oh I dunno NEVER GO BACK. But you do not have the right to say that someone else that starts the game next month or next year should never get the opportunity to do so. It is an MMO and as such there are many other people that pay their subs and have as much, if not more, of a right to be able to sample the content in the game that they paid for.
What he says sounds all good and dandy, as an ex-pen 'n' paper role player I totally get it, but what about when the story runs out? There are still people playing WoW now that started from launch, you can say what you like but that's some achievement and it's kinda also what MMOs are about. Are Bioware going to write 6 years or more of continuous story? Ouch, EA are gonna have to dig REAL deep.
Pen and Paper is FAR different. you dont have thousands of people to contend with. Usually you play with a select group of friends and you have your adventure. Some you create on your own, others you have some 30 odd years of modules out there not to mention magazines with mini adventures or adventure "starters". There are games that allow this today. Neverwinter Nights for one, last I checked most every quality TSR module had been converted and re-written for NWN or NWN2.
Personaly, if I want a form of entertainment where the script is pre-written for me, then I'll go see a movie rather then play an MMO....the seats are more comfortable and they serve popcorn.
Mr Erickson has a point but he misses the Mark by a good 3 feet or so. It's not the "story", it's the "SETTING"...it's the world and the events unfolding in it. The real magic of the ORIGIONAL rpg's... the ones you played with funny looking dice.... is that they allowed the PLAYERS to be as imaginative and creative when playing the game as the creators of the game or the authors or module designers. That's where the real FUN was to be had.
That's what is missing in todays game and more generaly in todays A.D.D. (that's Attention Deficit Disorder not Advanced Dungeons and Dragons) entertainment world. The publishers try to spoon feed everything to thier audience leaving no room for imagination, creativity or even thought. It misses the core of what is actualy FUN in play. As adults it makes us lazy and stupid.... and it does even worse to our kids. I enjoy the visceral, button mashing fun of digitized blasters blowing things to pieces and the clash of lurid neon light sabres on a monitor as much as anyone. But there is alot to be said for a mind that can look at a simple wooden stick and IMAGINE a light sabre. That's a mind that in the real world can imagine how to build an engine that crosses the vast expanse of space or can figure out how to power entire cities on solar energy alone.
Too few of todays games allow us to excersize our imagination. We've lost more then we know, when we've lost that. Erickson is right that todays MMO's don't have much point to them....since nothing the player does ever makes a difference to the world.... but he's wrong in the solution to that problem. You don't foster imagination by writing a story for some-one else.....you foster it by handing them the tools to create thier own story...and maybe give them a little nudge to help get them started IF they need it.
So Dan, create a cool and interesting setting.... a universe with lots of hooks for drama.... and things constantly happening.... but then STEP BACK and let the players create thier own stories...... don't write the story for the player.... THAT is what leaves him with nothing left to do. Give us the props and the tools to create our own stories...and you've got a recipie for FUN.
Don't do that and your pretty much just writring a movie formated for a computer screen where the player gets to hit a key every once inawhile to keep the movie playing.
I liked your post a lot though I disagree moderately with your outcome. The setting is just a backdrop, but the backdrop doesn't tie you in emotionally with the world. In some way I believe he is trying to convey that within the story lies a drive, not so much to create, but a drive to do.
Imagination is an amazing gift that everyone in some form can possess, but the drive to imagine in a game is literally leaving the player to find a means to their own end. Lets leave out BioWares choice system and all the MMO features they've spoken about right now and focus on the story directly. To walk through a story of a character, your character, bonds you to this setting. It tries to emotionally connect you to the world through what you see while you step through it.
Now bringing back in BioWares choice system, suddenly your story is more then just an emotional tie-in to the world around you and the backdrop for the entire game, but now it is you, making your choice, to live and think and interact with this world. Not just through cinematics, but with your "physical" actions of gameplay.
Bring back in the MMO features and now you have a wide open world where other living breathing people are running around, exploring and changing their own world, and in this space you interact with them and create your characters life, not just their story.
Is it completely necessary to have this story to attach you to a game? By all means no, but it is one way to achieve a sense of being and accomplishment in the game world... the same feeling we get in single player games like KOTOR and Zelda, just expanded and honed in an MMO world.
MMOs are not about pre written quests. Pre written storyes. And never changing pre set world.
They are not just single player RPGs that can be played with other players on internet.
There is a reason why original MMOs didnt have story - because it was your story -
The MMOs are blank slate in order for player to write their own story, and to mold the world , change it.
Colectively create the story line together.
But that is all lost. Thanks to guys like you.
How boring a world would that be, having to create my own adventure, well thats me buggered then, I mean lets face it, most of us would be totally lost if we had to come up with a compelling storyline for us to follow within an open MMO, most of us would jsut end up sitting at some spawn point grinding exp, and thinking "Great isn't this fun, NOT"
I don't buy a game so that I have to make up the story as I go along, sure I like my freedom in a game and it's there by the bucket load, but in the same instance I would and need to have a guiding hand show me the right path to keep on, and if thats a real evoling story that helps define my character then I'm gonna welcome it with open arms and say "Thank heavens some developer had the guts to do it, rather than pander to the we must grind lvls to have fun crowd"
I agree. If I wanted to write a story I would in real life and have it published to make money. I'm finding it difficult in the real world to forge a story of my own, and to do another in an artifical world would just do my head in.
I pretty much feel the opposite....If I wanted to enjoy a story that some-one else wrote...I'd go watch a movie or read a novel (I do plenty of both)..... when I choose a game as an entertainment medium...it's so that I can play a part in creating the story and excersize my own imagination....not let some-one elses wash over me.
Don't get me wrong....I appreciate the imagination and creativity of others... there is plenty of place for that....but it's the difference between PASSIVE (movies, books, plays) and ACTIVE entertainment (games, playing sports, etc).
What he says sounds all good and dandy, as an ex-pen 'n' paper role player I totally get it, but what about when the story runs out? There are still people playing WoW now that started from launch, you can say what you like but that's some achievement and it's kinda also what MMOs are about. Are Bioware going to write 6 years or more of continuous story? Ouch, EA are gonna have to dig REAL deep.
Nowhere did they say that their MMO would 'only have story', or that it would be a prolonged singleplayer experience but then online. They stated that they would add that fourth aspect, story, next to the other 3 that they would also integrate in their MMO, just like other MMO's have.
That's a very big difference in interpretation. Basically, they offer all the gameplay mechanics that other MMO's offer, done in their own way - of which we still have to learn more about from them - and added to that they will offer their enhanced stories.
I imagine it to be something similar like Tortage Island in AoC, but then up to end level, with a number of different paths to follow depending on your choices and it being able to do also with a group.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
when I choose a game as an entertainment medium...it's so that I can play a part in creating the story and excersize my own imagination....not let some-one elses wash over me.
....but it's the difference between PASSIVE (movies, books, plays) and ACTIVE entertainment (games, playing sports, etc).
according to this logic, MMOs historically have been the only genre of video games (except the Sims) that aren't Active entertainment then.
As in every major genre of video games there is very little in the way of creating anything.
Too few of todays games allow us to excersize our imagination. We've lost more then we know, when we've lost that. Erickson is right that todays MMO's don't have much point to them....since nothing the player does ever makes a difference to the world.... but he's wrong in the solution to that problem. You don't foster imagination by writing a story for some-one else.....you foster it by handing them the tools to create thier own story...and maybe give them a little nudge to help get them started IF they need it.
While I understand what you are saying I believe you live in a very optimistic world that is devoid of reality. Ever played the game Spore? What were the first submission that came out from the creature creator? Dicks, Penises, Phalluses, etc etc etc.
Give 100,000 people free reign and you are going to log into a world with titty houses and dick mounts. No thank you if I wanted to log into something that pathetic I would play Second Life.
"Backbreaker’s creators included a design customisation engine so deep a producer says you can recreate Da Vinci’s The Last Supper in your team’s end zone. He knows what most folks will try first though: “People, yeah, they’re gonna create dicks.”"
when I choose a game as an entertainment medium...it's so that I can play a part in creating the story and excersize my own imagination....not let some-one elses wash over me.
....but it's the difference between PASSIVE (movies, books, plays) and ACTIVE entertainment (games, playing sports, etc).
according to this logic, MMOs historically have been the only genre of video games (except the Sims) that aren't Active entertainment then.
As in every major genre of video games there is very little in the way of creating anything.
Most MMO's are ACTIVE in the same way that Asteroids was active....though I would argue often to a lesser degree as many don't offer the same variation in strategy or results (but that's a side arguement)....they test the players skill to press the right button at the right time.... not alot more.
If you'll note in the article, Erickson talks about the missing last 3 letters in MMO's ..... Role-Playing-Game.... and states that's one of Bioware's design goals in this project is to bring back the importance of those. While I like the design goal... the method he proposes doesn't mesh. The essence of role-playing is to allow the participants to excersize thier own imaginations and creativity. While it's not terrible to impose some structure on that....the more structure that you try to impose, the less room there is for individuals to excersize thier own creativity. It's a sliding scale...but at the lower end it does pretty much become a PASSIVE activity as far as imagination and creativity go....and most MMO's are pretty far down on that scale.
That's what is missing in todays game and more generaly in todays A.D.D. (that's Attention Deficit Disorder not Advanced Dungeons and Dragons) entertainment world. The publishers try to spoon feed everything to thier audience leaving no room for imagination, creativity or even thought. It misses the core of what is actualy FUN in play. As adults it makes us lazy and stupid.... and it does even worse to our kids. I enjoy the visceral, button mashing fun of digitized blasters blowing things to pieces and the clash of lurid neon light sabres on a monitor as much as anyone. But there is alot to be said for a mind that can look at a simple wooden stick and IMAGINE a light sabre. That's a mind that in the real world can imagine how to build an engine that crosses the vast expanse of space or can figure out how to power entire cities on solar energy alone.
Too few of todays games allow us to excersize our imagination. We've lost more then we know, when we've lost that. Erickson is right that todays MMO's don't have much point to them....since nothing the player does ever makes a difference to the world.... but he's wrong in the solution to that problem. You don't foster imagination by writing a story for some-one else.....you foster it by handing them the tools to create thier own story...and maybe give them a little nudge to help get them started IF they need it.
Dude. This is so right.
You should be game designer! And i am being serious
Well its clear now that he never played Lord of the Rings online. This game offers a solid story, you level your character following the footsteps of the Fellowship, aiding them in a non direct way. LOTRO in the Shadows of Angmar days was a pure story game, but sadly with the arrival of Moria and Mirkwood the developers forgot that which made their game fun and turn into a grinding style of game.
Wow. He is so full of himself and Bioware. I am getting SW:ToR when it comes out and I will probably like it, but that does not mean that all other MMOs have no point. Bioware keeps talking about story as if they are the first to do it. There are several MMOs that have questlines that are interesting and full of backstory and story. Some of these questlines cover several levels. There has always been story in many MMOs, not all of them.
It also seems that he took at stab at Age of Conan with the 20 levels comment. That just tells me that he is another hater who hasn't tried the game in the past year. There is so much content and story in Age of Conan that it is going to take a long time to do it all.
They like to brag that they have 50 novels worth of voice acting. Well so what. Sure it is nice to have voice acting but that does not mean the game will be fun. I have had fun in all the MMOs I stuck with in the past 6 years. City of Heroes was a ton of fun and World of Warcraft had plenty of fun moments. I am having a blast in Age of Conan right now.
I guess we will see how much story matters next year when SW:ToR comes out.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
Hmm more and more specualtion doesn't exactly pass the time waiting for the game to come out. I think its safe to saw we are all at wait and see point. No use presumeing how it will turn out based on what a dev said.
Hmm more and more specualtion doesn't exactly pass the time waiting for the game to come out. I think its safe to saw we are all at wait and see point. No use presumeing how it will turn out based on what a dev said.
Lots of us see a point to the speculation. If you don't - why are you here?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I completely agree with what Daniel is saying. People are saying that the world is a "blank slate" in MMO's and that you "make your own story". That's a falsehood. A massively facetious statement. ALL of the quests in EVERY MMO is prewritten. There's no "get this done, I don't care how you do it". There's constant "kill 10 of this and bring me their asshair" and "go kill this guy" quests. Besides, injecting interesting stories into games that are by-and-large tests of your patience isn't a bad thing. They aren't attempting to make everyone "play the same game". You choose how you do a quest still, they're just making it more fun to do.
You people need to quit freaking out. Real RPGs were almost never single player, and if any of you have played tabletop D&D, you'll know what I mean.
Too few of todays games allow us to excersize our imagination. We've lost more then we know, when we've lost that. Erickson is right that todays MMO's don't have much point to them....since nothing the player does ever makes a difference to the world.... but he's wrong in the solution to that problem. You don't foster imagination by writing a story for some-one else.....you foster it by handing them the tools to create thier own story...and maybe give them a little nudge to help get them started IF they need it.
While I understand what you are saying I believe you live in a very optimistic world that is devoid of reality. Ever played the game Spore? What were the first submission that came out from the creature creator? Dicks, Penises, Phalluses, etc etc etc.
Give 100,000 people free reign and you are going to log into a world with titty houses and dick mounts. No thank you if I wanted to log into something that pathetic I would play Second Life.
"Backbreaker’s creators included a design customisation engine so deep a producer says you can recreate Da Vinci’s The Last Supper in your team’s end zone. He knows what most folks will try first though: “People, yeah, they’re gonna create dicks.”"
What you think there was no smut back in Da Vinci's time either? With allowing for creativity you get the smut AND you get The Last Supper..... without it, you just get 50 Million variations of Dogs Playing Poker. Enforced mediocraty.
However, that is not to say that communities can't enforce some minimum standards on people without completely stifling creativity. Furthmore, if the play space is big enough...there is quite a bit of latitude in who you choose to associate with....so there may be alot of dreck...but you can limit your own exposure to it.
Also I'm not arguing for players to be able to alter the world-reality of the game universe. I have no problem with the only sort of mounts offered in the game being horses...available in only real horse colors...with regular real world trappings.
What I have a problem with is a game that dictates to the player....
"You are riding your horse to the village of FOO, when the horse trips and throws you. In your fall you discover an acient scroll containing a map to the lost diamond mines of bling-bling. Filled with a burning desire for lost wealth...you proceed to the spot marked on the map... kill 50 goblins and claim your reward"
To which my response is...
- What if my character doesn't ride horses. Can I walk instead?
- What if my character has no desire to go to the village of FOO?
- What if I play the type of character that has no desire for material possesions? Can I just forget the map and be on my way to FOO?
- What if my character is more the stealthy type then the fighting type...can I sneak into the mines and steal a few diamonds instead of fighting the goblins?
- Can I trade the goblins something they want for the diamonds instead?
- Ok I have the map...and I need to kill 50 goblins...rather then be an idiot and proceed there myself...can I recruit a band of 20 soldiers to come help me and then split the reward with them?
I realize from a technical standpoint, it's really really tought to account for that sort of variation. However, if you REALLY want to put the RPG back into MMORPG's... THOSE are the types of questions you need to devote resources into answering.... NOT having 50 billion hours worth of voice acting. Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value.
MMOs are not about pre written quests. Pre written storyes. And never changing pre set world.
They are not just single player RPGs that can be played with other players on internet.
There is a reason why original MMOs didnt have story - because it was your story -
The MMOs are blank slate in order for player to write their own story, and to mold the world , change it.
Colectively create the story line together.
But that is all lost. Thanks to guys like you.
precisely.
and when developers attempt at telling a story the story will inevitably run out at a given point; and without a platform which provides the tools for your to create your own story and "live" in a world without being taken by the hand, you find yourself without nothing to do.
and when developers attempt at telling a story the story will inevitably run out at a given point; and without a platform which provides to tools for your to create your own story and "live" in a world without being taken by the hand, you find yourself without nothing to do.
Re-rolling appears to be their prime end game focus. Why else would all eight classes need a separate story line?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The MMOs are blank slate in order for player to write their own story, and to mold the world , change it.
Colectively create the story line together.
*snip*
But don't pretend that a sandbox 'virtual world simulator' game will ever have the dramatic impact or momentous moments that a well-written novel or movie or video game can have. Games like Mass Effect, Fallout, Oblivion, Never Winter Nights had *written* stories, not plots created by their players. That's because writing a truly compelling story is a *skill* and not one that is found by throwing a bunch of random people together on a server.
It's not the developer's fault, people want compelling stories and it's what is expected from the market now that MMORPG audience has expanded beyond hardcore, old-school players who have the time to waste 'making their own stories' which are little more than bad Mary-Sue fan-fics.
*snip*
I'm going to have to disagree here, the countless examples of emergent gameplay, compelling drama, and "real" stories created as the result of CCP's EVE Online contend strongly with the potential for a great pre-written narrative. They both have their place.
However, the latter of which presents a challenge when trying to tie that story into creating a lasting impact on the game world, while EVE Online's (and games like it) numerous scandals and myriad other adventures have the potential to reverberate throughout the entirety of the game world, and they have already.
With that said, I'm pretty hopeful for The Old Republic and I appreciate what they are trying to do. However, I can and do prefer the sandbox approach, not simply as part of an ideal or abstract feeling, but because I have both been a part of and witnessed the unique stories that they have the potential to create.
There is room for hybrids as well. Let's not forget The Matrix Online, which featured a well crafted narrative that was guided in part (and supplemented) by the actions of players, and their own stories. In fact, my crew in MXO was included as part of the in-game lore in one or more quests as a result of our impact. Ideally, this is my preferred approach. I'd love to see a narrative that SW:TOR promises to offer, in addition to providing players with the tools, gameplay mechanics, and world to foster the kinds of stories only players can create.
While yes, it's true that writing stories are a skill, many of our favorite stories are inspired by the real stories created simply by real life events, either directly inspired or on a basic level. If a game is given the proper tools and support by its developer (i.e. EVE Online) great things can happen naturally. So, again, there is potential for both to co-exist and they are both valid approaches to design, IMO.
Heck, on a smaller scale, people create their own lasting stories every Friday night during D&D.
I also found the example of Neverwinter Nights to illustrate your point amusing, given the fact that NWN is not renowned for its pre-written narrative so much as its player-created modules. In fact, Bioware accepts these modules as an example of potential writer/designers' work as part of the application's required submissions.
These "bad Mary-Sue fan-fics" are getting many people jobs writing the narratives in the games you adore.
and when developers attempt at telling a story the story will inevitably run out at a given point; and without a platform which provides to tools for your to create your own story and "live" in a world without being taken by the hand, you find yourself without nothing to do.
Re-rolling appears to be their prime end game focus. Why else would all eight classes need a separate story line?
true, but ultimately a failed system - not the separate stories as such but rellying on them to provide persistant content.
besides, re-rolling is not for everyone. some people enjoy the attachment to their character and would like to play THAT character not invent a new one to continue to play.
I completely agree with what Daniel is saying. People are saying that the world is a "blank slate" in MMO's and that you "make your own story". That's a falsehood. A massively facetious statement. ALL of the quests in EVERY MMO is prewritten. There's no "get this done, I don't care how you do it". There's constant "kill 10 of this and bring me their asshair" and "go kill this guy" quests. Besides, injecting interesting stories into games that are by-and-large tests of your patience isn't a bad thing. They aren't attempting to make everyone "play the same game". You choose how you do a quest still, they're just making it more fun to do.
You people need to quit freaking out. Real RPGs were almost never single player, and if any of you have played tabletop D&D, you'll know what I mean.
Except, in many early MMOs (before WoW) there were very few, if any, quests. I played Everquest for over 2 years and only completed maybe 5 quests total. I'm not advocating grinding camps of mobs all day, such as in EQ, but there did seem to be a lot more freedom to go anywhere and do as you please. Quest hubs were built for players who need direction. They serve that player type very well. There are many players who get bored of doing quests. I would assume a very large percentage of players do not even read the quest text. But I assure you, those players who are most interested in progression and end game are in fact playing the same game. They go to the same quest hubs and do the same things over and over once they find out which ones are the fastest. They read class boards and create their talent trees to match those that are popular.
Tabletop D&D was most certainly about making your own story, in my opinion. You had more freedom and more options. Most games still provide that to players who can use thier imagination, but it's easier to just run through the quests and look to the internet to tell you how to play.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Emergent content is good and fun and can be hugely rewarding. Alas, it's no story.
To anybody who really knows anything about stories and who is a fan of stories, the concept of emergent content acting as story, the concept of "you writing your own story" is pretty laughable.
true, but ultimately a failed system - not the separate stories as such but rellying on them to provide persistant content.
besides, re-rolling is not for everyone. some people enjoy the attachment to their character and would like to play THAT character not invent a new one to continue to play.
I agree. I wasn't saying it was a good idea.
If BioWare is shrewd, they will have some sort of power-up system tied to how many different classes you have completed the story line for. I think all MMOs should have something like that, actually.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Comments
What he says sounds all good and dandy, as an ex-pen 'n' paper role player I totally get it, but what about when the story runs out? There are still people playing WoW now that started from launch, you can say what you like but that's some achievement and it's kinda also what MMOs are about. Are Bioware going to write 6 years or more of continuous story? Ouch, EA are gonna have to dig REAL deep.
First, NO, its thanks to the playerbase. Not the developers. They have a job to do which is to produce a product that will sell to as many people as possible and to provide the majority with entertainment. Don't like it? UO and SWG are still there. Have at em. Maybe if there were enough of you to cause a revival of one of those games then publishers and developers would say yeah, we can throw $150 million to make a sandbox and be able to reap a profit before the turn of the next millenium.
And, having played a whole helluva lot of these mmos, all of your player run "events" turned out to be worse than an episode of a daytime soap opera and excluded anyone and everyone else that do not want to be extra number 32 in your PRE-WRITTEN STORYLINE.
And, yes, yes they are about a relatively unchanged world. Who the hell are you to dictate to everyone else that plays on a server how they will play and what they can do? Ok so you want to blow up ice crown citadel. Go in defeat the lich king and oh I dunno NEVER GO BACK. But you do not have the right to say that someone else that starts the game next month or next year should never get the opportunity to do so. It is an MMO and as such there are many other people that pay their subs and have as much, if not more, of a right to be able to sample the content in the game that they paid for.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Pen and Paper is FAR different. you dont have thousands of people to contend with. Usually you play with a select group of friends and you have your adventure. Some you create on your own, others you have some 30 odd years of modules out there not to mention magazines with mini adventures or adventure "starters". There are games that allow this today. Neverwinter Nights for one, last I checked most every quality TSR module had been converted and re-written for NWN or NWN2.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
I liked your post a lot though I disagree moderately with your outcome. The setting is just a backdrop, but the backdrop doesn't tie you in emotionally with the world. In some way I believe he is trying to convey that within the story lies a drive, not so much to create, but a drive to do.
Imagination is an amazing gift that everyone in some form can possess, but the drive to imagine in a game is literally leaving the player to find a means to their own end. Lets leave out BioWares choice system and all the MMO features they've spoken about right now and focus on the story directly. To walk through a story of a character, your character, bonds you to this setting. It tries to emotionally connect you to the world through what you see while you step through it.
Now bringing back in BioWares choice system, suddenly your story is more then just an emotional tie-in to the world around you and the backdrop for the entire game, but now it is you, making your choice, to live and think and interact with this world. Not just through cinematics, but with your "physical" actions of gameplay.
Bring back in the MMO features and now you have a wide open world where other living breathing people are running around, exploring and changing their own world, and in this space you interact with them and create your characters life, not just their story.
Is it completely necessary to have this story to attach you to a game? By all means no, but it is one way to achieve a sense of being and accomplishment in the game world... the same feeling we get in single player games like KOTOR and Zelda, just expanded and honed in an MMO world.
I pretty much feel the opposite....If I wanted to enjoy a story that some-one else wrote...I'd go watch a movie or read a novel (I do plenty of both)..... when I choose a game as an entertainment medium...it's so that I can play a part in creating the story and excersize my own imagination....not let some-one elses wash over me.
Don't get me wrong....I appreciate the imagination and creativity of others... there is plenty of place for that....but it's the difference between PASSIVE (movies, books, plays) and ACTIVE entertainment (games, playing sports, etc).
Nowhere did they say that their MMO would 'only have story', or that it would be a prolonged singleplayer experience but then online. They stated that they would add that fourth aspect, story, next to the other 3 that they would also integrate in their MMO, just like other MMO's have.
That's a very big difference in interpretation. Basically, they offer all the gameplay mechanics that other MMO's offer, done in their own way - of which we still have to learn more about from them - and added to that they will offer their enhanced stories.
I imagine it to be something similar like Tortage Island in AoC, but then up to end level, with a number of different paths to follow depending on your choices and it being able to do also with a group.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
according to this logic, MMOs historically have been the only genre of video games (except the Sims) that aren't Active entertainment then.
As in every major genre of video games there is very little in the way of creating anything.
i bet this will bite this guy ass soon
BestSigEver :P
While I understand what you are saying I believe you live in a very optimistic world that is devoid of reality. Ever played the game Spore? What were the first submission that came out from the creature creator? Dicks, Penises, Phalluses, etc etc etc.
Give 100,000 people free reign and you are going to log into a world with titty houses and dick mounts. No thank you if I wanted to log into something that pathetic I would play Second Life.
Here's something for your assessment: http://www.kotaku.com.au/2010/06/backbreaker-expects-to-see-large-penises-in-your-end-zone/
"Backbreaker’s creators included a design customisation engine so deep a producer says you can recreate Da Vinci’s The Last Supper in your team’s end zone. He knows what most folks will try first though: “People, yeah, they’re gonna create dicks.”"
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Most MMO's are ACTIVE in the same way that Asteroids was active....though I would argue often to a lesser degree as many don't offer the same variation in strategy or results (but that's a side arguement)....they test the players skill to press the right button at the right time.... not alot more.
If you'll note in the article, Erickson talks about the missing last 3 letters in MMO's ..... Role-Playing-Game.... and states that's one of Bioware's design goals in this project is to bring back the importance of those. While I like the design goal... the method he proposes doesn't mesh. The essence of role-playing is to allow the participants to excersize thier own imaginations and creativity. While it's not terrible to impose some structure on that....the more structure that you try to impose, the less room there is for individuals to excersize thier own creativity. It's a sliding scale...but at the lower end it does pretty much become a PASSIVE activity as far as imagination and creativity go....and most MMO's are pretty far down on that scale.
Dude. This is so right.
You should be game designer! And i am being serious
Well its clear now that he never played Lord of the Rings online. This game offers a solid story, you level your character following the footsteps of the Fellowship, aiding them in a non direct way. LOTRO in the Shadows of Angmar days was a pure story game, but sadly with the arrival of Moria and Mirkwood the developers forgot that which made their game fun and turn into a grinding style of game.
Wow. He is so full of himself and Bioware. I am getting SW:ToR when it comes out and I will probably like it, but that does not mean that all other MMOs have no point. Bioware keeps talking about story as if they are the first to do it. There are several MMOs that have questlines that are interesting and full of backstory and story. Some of these questlines cover several levels. There has always been story in many MMOs, not all of them.
It also seems that he took at stab at Age of Conan with the 20 levels comment. That just tells me that he is another hater who hasn't tried the game in the past year. There is so much content and story in Age of Conan that it is going to take a long time to do it all.
They like to brag that they have 50 novels worth of voice acting. Well so what. Sure it is nice to have voice acting but that does not mean the game will be fun. I have had fun in all the MMOs I stuck with in the past 6 years. City of Heroes was a ton of fun and World of Warcraft had plenty of fun moments. I am having a blast in Age of Conan right now.
I guess we will see how much story matters next year when SW:ToR comes out.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
Hmm more and more specualtion doesn't exactly pass the time waiting for the game to come out. I think its safe to saw we are all at wait and see point. No use presumeing how it will turn out based on what a dev said.
Lots of us see a point to the speculation. If you don't - why are you here?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I completely agree with what Daniel is saying. People are saying that the world is a "blank slate" in MMO's and that you "make your own story". That's a falsehood. A massively facetious statement. ALL of the quests in EVERY MMO is prewritten. There's no "get this done, I don't care how you do it". There's constant "kill 10 of this and bring me their asshair" and "go kill this guy" quests. Besides, injecting interesting stories into games that are by-and-large tests of your patience isn't a bad thing. They aren't attempting to make everyone "play the same game". You choose how you do a quest still, they're just making it more fun to do.
You people need to quit freaking out. Real RPGs were almost never single player, and if any of you have played tabletop D&D, you'll know what I mean.
What you think there was no smut back in Da Vinci's time either? With allowing for creativity you get the smut AND you get The Last Supper..... without it, you just get 50 Million variations of Dogs Playing Poker. Enforced mediocraty.
However, that is not to say that communities can't enforce some minimum standards on people without completely stifling creativity. Furthmore, if the play space is big enough...there is quite a bit of latitude in who you choose to associate with....so there may be alot of dreck...but you can limit your own exposure to it.
Also I'm not arguing for players to be able to alter the world-reality of the game universe. I have no problem with the only sort of mounts offered in the game being horses...available in only real horse colors...with regular real world trappings.
What I have a problem with is a game that dictates to the player....
"You are riding your horse to the village of FOO, when the horse trips and throws you. In your fall you discover an acient scroll containing a map to the lost diamond mines of bling-bling. Filled with a burning desire for lost wealth...you proceed to the spot marked on the map... kill 50 goblins and claim your reward"
To which my response is...
- What if my character doesn't ride horses. Can I walk instead?
- What if my character has no desire to go to the village of FOO?
- What if I play the type of character that has no desire for material possesions? Can I just forget the map and be on my way to FOO?
- What if my character is more the stealthy type then the fighting type...can I sneak into the mines and steal a few diamonds instead of fighting the goblins?
- Can I trade the goblins something they want for the diamonds instead?
- Ok I have the map...and I need to kill 50 goblins...rather then be an idiot and proceed there myself...can I recruit a band of 20 soldiers to come help me and then split the reward with them?
I realize from a technical standpoint, it's really really tought to account for that sort of variation. However, if you REALLY want to put the RPG back into MMORPG's... THOSE are the types of questions you need to devote resources into answering.... NOT having 50 billion hours worth of voice acting. Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value.
That one is .sig-worthy
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
precisely.
and when developers attempt at telling a story the story will inevitably run out at a given point; and without a platform which provides the tools for your to create your own story and "live" in a world without being taken by the hand, you find yourself without nothing to do.
Re-rolling appears to be their prime end game focus. Why else would all eight classes need a separate story line?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I'm going to have to disagree here, the countless examples of emergent gameplay, compelling drama, and "real" stories created as the result of CCP's EVE Online contend strongly with the potential for a great pre-written narrative. They both have their place.
However, the latter of which presents a challenge when trying to tie that story into creating a lasting impact on the game world, while EVE Online's (and games like it) numerous scandals and myriad other adventures have the potential to reverberate throughout the entirety of the game world, and they have already.
With that said, I'm pretty hopeful for The Old Republic and I appreciate what they are trying to do. However, I can and do prefer the sandbox approach, not simply as part of an ideal or abstract feeling, but because I have both been a part of and witnessed the unique stories that they have the potential to create.
There is room for hybrids as well. Let's not forget The Matrix Online, which featured a well crafted narrative that was guided in part (and supplemented) by the actions of players, and their own stories. In fact, my crew in MXO was included as part of the in-game lore in one or more quests as a result of our impact. Ideally, this is my preferred approach. I'd love to see a narrative that SW:TOR promises to offer, in addition to providing players with the tools, gameplay mechanics, and world to foster the kinds of stories only players can create.
While yes, it's true that writing stories are a skill, many of our favorite stories are inspired by the real stories created simply by real life events, either directly inspired or on a basic level. If a game is given the proper tools and support by its developer (i.e. EVE Online) great things can happen naturally. So, again, there is potential for both to co-exist and they are both valid approaches to design, IMO.
Heck, on a smaller scale, people create their own lasting stories every Friday night during D&D.
I also found the example of Neverwinter Nights to illustrate your point amusing, given the fact that NWN is not renowned for its pre-written narrative so much as its player-created modules. In fact, Bioware accepts these modules as an example of potential writer/designers' work as part of the application's required submissions.
These "bad Mary-Sue fan-fics" are getting many people jobs writing the narratives in the games you adore.
true, but ultimately a failed system - not the separate stories as such but rellying on them to provide persistant content.
besides, re-rolling is not for everyone. some people enjoy the attachment to their character and would like to play THAT character not invent a new one to continue to play.
Except, in many early MMOs (before WoW) there were very few, if any, quests. I played Everquest for over 2 years and only completed maybe 5 quests total. I'm not advocating grinding camps of mobs all day, such as in EQ, but there did seem to be a lot more freedom to go anywhere and do as you please. Quest hubs were built for players who need direction. They serve that player type very well. There are many players who get bored of doing quests. I would assume a very large percentage of players do not even read the quest text. But I assure you, those players who are most interested in progression and end game are in fact playing the same game. They go to the same quest hubs and do the same things over and over once they find out which ones are the fastest. They read class boards and create their talent trees to match those that are popular.
Tabletop D&D was most certainly about making your own story, in my opinion. You had more freedom and more options. Most games still provide that to players who can use thier imagination, but it's easier to just run through the quests and look to the internet to tell you how to play.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Emergent content is good and fun and can be hugely rewarding. Alas, it's no story.
To anybody who really knows anything about stories and who is a fan of stories, the concept of emergent content acting as story, the concept of "you writing your own story" is pretty laughable.
I agree. I wasn't saying it was a good idea.
If BioWare is shrewd, they will have some sort of power-up system tied to how many different classes you have completed the story line for. I think all MMOs should have something like that, actually.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2