"Hey ! Our MMO is not really a MMO but a single player game with a sub. Lets justify it by an attempt to change what MMORPG really is and no one will notice !"
If you, for one minute think an MMORPG is nothing more than grinding and dungeon crawling for better gear than you my friend have a problem. No where in his statement he said TOR is a single player game with a sub. If you knew how to actually comphrehend, you would have understood that he was making a point on how most mmo's pretty much sets you on a grinding treadmill that leads you to end game with even more grinding for gear. Let's get that straight, i said MMO's not MMORPG's. There's a big differance in the two and TOR will finally be the game to bring it out in a massive way.
Yet, even as he said that, Bioware (from reading others interviews on this subject), understands that people do like doing that and that is fun for many. That's why TOR will still support alot of differant playstyles, so even if you don't care about the story, your option to get involved or not, the game will have all the standard MMO features that most other games have today. They may do them in a new innovative way or just try and polish what is already known to work.
What i can't figure out is why some of you have such a hard-on for trying to stop what others see as fun. I keep seeing the same bitchers and moaners in every TOR thread, with how this is gonna suck or this is a single player game and such, and it just baffles me. Are you people just that insecure about what direction your current game is heading and think all of your little friends will leave you behind when TOR comes out.
TOR is gonna be a huge game from all indications and you will either like it or not. If not, then please do everyone that is enjoying what they are seeing a favor and just go play whatever game you're playing and troll somewhere else.
Emergent content is good and fun and can be hugely rewarding. Alas, it's no story.
To anybody who really knows anything about stories and who is a fan of stories, the concept of emergent content acting as story, the concept of "you writing your own story" is pretty laughable.
In a themepark game, yep. It requires a sand box to do it right. You have to be able to choose your own long-term goals.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
MMOs are not about pre written quests. Pre written storyes. And never changing pre set world.
They are not just single player RPGs that can be played with other players on internet.
There is a reason why original MMOs didnt have story - because it was your story -
The MMOs are blank slate in order for player to write their own story, and to mold the world , change it.
Colectively create the story line together.
But that is all lost. Thanks to guys like you.
ugh.
That is a bold statment but I don't believe it's true.
I don't believe for a minute that game developers sat down and said "well, we could have quests but perhaps it would be more interesting to forgo all of that and allow players to create their own content".
What I do believe is that developers had limited time and money and just a love for creating an online world and did what they could with what they had.
Add ot that the idea the developers are "computer developers" and not necessarily writers or artists.
Oh sure, I've met some creative computer guys and some who have very legitimate creative chops, but put a good many of them in a room with actual writers and artists and the differences become very clear. there is always a palpable difference between well written quests and quests that feel like they were created by some guy who was asked to write a few quests.
Not to mention that here you have software developers who are spending an innordinate amount of time making the game work. So much easier to leave the quests until later or just let the players come up whatever floats their boat.
There is a reason that great games employ writers and artists. Because they do what they do and do it so well.
I remember speaking to a web designer and I had told him that I was thinking of getting into it but would be more interested in the art design and flow of the pages over the nuts and bolts "under the hood" stuff. He commented that that was good as there were so many web developers who had to do all of that but who would prefer the nuts and bolts stuff.
And it shows. Of the people I know who do some sort of development with computers, all of them are whizzes with the technical stuff but their creative juices can sometime feel forced. Or in one best case scenario, a friend of mine can do the art stuff but she would much rather do the under the hood stuff because "creating something artistic and interesting from nothing is really hard".
Yet that is the bread and butter of actual artists/writers.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I would say that in this MMO you can either have a choice. The choice is a simple matter of doing the storyline quests or not. BioWare aren't going to force you to do them.
I have been in way to many MMO's with no storylines or backgrounds in them. Its been a endless grind fest. I am glad that developers are looking to move away from this. Mortal Online looks like a good MMO that is soon to be released with simular kind of things but set in a fantasy world.
Unfortunately, all of you idiots think you are unique and delicate snowflakes and that Bioware needs to create a game where you can be creative and set up your own story in the middle of their storyline. Did any of you even play KOTOR? It is basically an RPG on rails. Every once in a while you got to decide which storyline came first, but fundamentally you were given a choice of different tracks that all started and ended in the same place.
SWTOR has been called KOTOR 3 to Infinity, which part of that was unclear?
If you don't want a RPG on rails and didn't like KOTOR, you probably won't like SWTOR. Trying to change a game into the game you want is ultimately unfulfilling and foolish. If you don't like what is currently offered, I'm sure you are smart enough to pick up a C# book and build your own MMO in a year or two. You are special and unique, right?
Emergent content is good and fun and can be hugely rewarding. Alas, it's no story.
To anybody who really knows anything about stories and who is a fan of stories, the concept of emergent content acting as story, the concept of "you writing your own story" is pretty laughable.
In a themepark game, yep. It requires a sand box to do it right. You have to be able to choose your own long-term goals.
No. Even with a sandbox like EVE, that'll just be "rewarding and eventful gameplay", not story.
Even with themeparks, we don't have story now, not in the professional, literal sense. We just have some pseudo-colorful events juxtaposed childishly and amateurishly to give some semblance of a story. They're devoid of depth, even devoid of a sense of character arc apart from the mechanics provided by "leveling" itself (which honestly is no character arc). The motives don't work, and nothing really has any dramatic impact.
Now, a sandbox game like EVE, it at least does have impact, because it makes you care about your toon via the harsh death penalty and it sets its focus squarely on social interaction, so your dealings with others can carry dramatic weight. Admittedly, until now EVE has done this better than story-based MMOs.
Still that doesn't change the fact that you have no story - no more than anybody's life is a "story", anyway, they're just related events. A real story has an intentional structure that enables it communicate more than mere events. Games can aspire to this, several single player games have. It's just that the theme park MMOs up to now have been a far cry from real storytelling.
"voice acting. Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value."
I completely disagree, strong voice acting can enhance an RPG IMO.It helps in making my role believable. As the characters I'm interacting with have a soul to them. A great example of that would be The Witcher. Sure scripted RPG's can be great as well, Morrowind comes to mind here.
Characters were still voiced to an extent however you had to read most of what they had to say. I for one prefer the Voice over approach.It may not be an "RPG element" however to me it's far more than a "production value", it helps bring the game world alive, enhancing the experience. Making it easier to fill the role I'm playing. This can make a huge difference in an MMO for me. As AOC has shown.
I've always been a sandbox player and I love the concept, I still understand the point D.E. is making here. As far as the world is concerned in MMO's, especially sandbox MMO's. There's no life in it, nothing says the world is believable outside of player based interaction. The world itself is dead and extremely artificial, IMO this is what makes a lot of MMO's seem as though there is no point to them. If there was no player interaction (slow day, dying game etc...) the game would feel lifeless, voice over on top of compelling story lines could go a long way toward fixing that IMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Unfortunately, all of you idiots think you are unique and delicate snowflakes and that Bioware needs to create a game where you can be creative and set up your own story in the middle of their storyline. Did any of you even play KOTOR? It is basically an RPG on rails. Every once in a while you got to decide which storyline came first, but fundamentally you were given a choice of different tracks that all started and ended in the same place.
SWTOR has been called KOTOR 3 to Infinity, which part of that was unclear?
If you don't want a RPG on rails and didn't like KOTOR, you probably won't like SWTOR. Trying to change a game into the game you want is ultimately unfulfilling and foolish. If you don't like what is currently offered, I'm sure you are smart enough to pick up a C# book and build your own MMO in a year or two. You are special and unique, right?
ah finally someone with brains comes along!
unlile kotor, my esteemed friend, i would like to explain to you that this is as massive multiplayer game (it means you play online with other people simultaniously).
wouldn't it struck you as odd to play a game with thousands of players but those thousands of players do not make the slightest of impact to your gaming experience?
us, of lesser brains and imagination, have thought about it for some time and i have reached the conclusion that if a game decides to be online and attract all these people, it might as well allow them to play together and who knows; maybe create their own social or otherwise content whilst they are at it?
Slightly off topic but it seems SWToR has been getting a lot of coverage of late, which would be impressive if the game was about to come out and they want to move boxes and want everyone to be talking about it. Less good if its a year away and your giving people a long time to mull over everything someone says and find fault (its the internet we don't find praise) with it.
So I wonder if its all part of some cunning marketing plan to up the hype level ready for a surprise annoucement that the game will be coming out much sooner than expected and hopefully then not be over shadowed by Guild Wars 2, The Warcraft Expansion or even that Clone Wars Adventures.
Unfortunately, all of you idiots think you are unique and delicate snowflakes and that Bioware needs to create a game where you can be creative and set up your own story in the middle of their storyline. Did any of you even play KOTOR? It is basically an RPG on rails. Every once in a while you got to decide which storyline came first, but fundamentally you were given a choice of different tracks that all started and ended in the same place.
SWTOR has been called KOTOR 3 to Infinity, which part of that was unclear?
If you don't want a RPG on rails and didn't like KOTOR, you probably won't like SWTOR. Trying to change a game into the game you want is ultimately unfulfilling and foolish. If you don't like what is currently offered, I'm sure you are smart enough to pick up a C# book and build your own MMO in a year or two. You are special and unique, right?
ah finally someone with brains comes along!
unlile kotor, my esteemed friend, i would like to explain to you that this is as massive multiplayer game (it means you play online with other people simultaniously).
wouldn't it struck you as odd to play a game with thousands of players but those thousands of players do not make the slightest of impact to your gaming experience?
us, of lesser brains and imagination, have thought about it for some time and i have reached the conclusion that if a game decides to be online and attract all these people, it might as well allow them to play together and who knows; maybe create their own social or otherwise content whilst they are at it?
And who says you won't be able to create your own social content in TOR? Oh wait. Nobody. You know what happens when you assume...
I'm sorry, you're right. Everyone will be in their own little bubble and BioWare will do absolutely nothing to encourage bubbles to mix. They'll just let everyone float around and laugh because people are so venomously against interacting with each other. It's like we're allergic to other people, I swear. Thus, we need developers to offer us incentives to talk, to group, to trade, to do just about anything with other players. Pretty sad.
us, of lesser brains and imagination, have thought about it for some time and i have reached the conclusion that if a game decides to be online and attract all these people, it might as well allow them to play together and who knows; maybe create their own social or otherwise content whilst they are at it?
Those of us with greater brains and imagination wouldn't be putting in systems that indirectly discourage grouping.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Unfortunately, all of you idiots think you are unique and delicate snowflakes and that Bioware needs to create a game where you can be creative and set up your own story in the middle of their storyline. Did any of you even play KOTOR? It is basically an RPG on rails. Every once in a while you got to decide which storyline came first, but fundamentally you were given a choice of different tracks that all started and ended in the same place.
SWTOR has been called KOTOR 3 to Infinity, which part of that was unclear?
If you don't want a RPG on rails and didn't like KOTOR, you probably won't like SWTOR. Trying to change a game into the game you want is ultimately unfulfilling and foolish. If you don't like what is currently offered, I'm sure you are smart enough to pick up a C# book and build your own MMO in a year or two. You are special and unique, right?
ah finally someone with brains comes along!
unlile kotor, my esteemed friend, i would like to explain to you that this is as massive multiplayer game (it means you play online with other people simultaniously).
wouldn't it struck you as odd to play a game with thousands of players but those thousands of players do not make the slightest of impact to your gaming experience?
us, of lesser brains and imagination, have thought about it for some time and i have reached the conclusion that if a game decides to be online and attract all these people, it might as well allow them to play together and who knows; maybe create their own social or otherwise content whilst they are at it?
And who says you won't be able to create your own social content in TOR? Oh wait. Nobody. You know what happens when you assume...
I'm sorry, you're right. Everyone will be in their own little bubble and BioWare will do absolutely nothing to encourage bubbles to mix. They'll just let everyone float around and laugh because people are so venomously against interacting with each other. It's like we're allergic to other people, I swear. Thus, we need developers to offer us incentives to talk, to group, to trade, to do just about anything with other players. Pretty sad.
It requires a drive to do it Comnitus. I think I'm seeing choice and drive being real issues for a lot of the community here. If they aren't forced to do it, then they won't do it. If they don't force me to group, then I'm just going to solo and not enjoy it because I want a grouping game. They don't force me to setup a blockade in a PvP zone for the story and roleplaying aspect of it, so I'm not going to do it and just complain about it later.
Its easier to complain about people not forcing you to do something you want to do then just doing it because you can if you want to. To some people the best thing we can do, is take away options from them... and yet we still get chastised because its a "theme park"
Unfortunately, all of you idiots think you are unique and delicate snowflakes and that Bioware needs to create a game where you can be creative and set up your own story in the middle of their storyline. Did any of you even play KOTOR? It is basically an RPG on rails. Every once in a while you got to decide which storyline came first, but fundamentally you were given a choice of different tracks that all started and ended in the same place.
SWTOR has been called KOTOR 3 to Infinity, which part of that was unclear?
If you don't want a RPG on rails and didn't like KOTOR, you probably won't like SWTOR. Trying to change a game into the game you want is ultimately unfulfilling and foolish. If you don't like what is currently offered, I'm sure you are smart enough to pick up a C# book and build your own MMO in a year or two. You are special and unique, right?
ah finally someone with brains comes along!
unlile kotor, my esteemed friend, i would like to explain to you that this is as massive multiplayer game (it means you play online with other people simultaniously).
wouldn't it struck you as odd to play a game with thousands of players but those thousands of players do not make the slightest of impact to your gaming experience?
us, of lesser brains and imagination, have thought about it for some time and i have reached the conclusion that if a game decides to be online and attract all these people, it might as well allow them to play together and who knows; maybe create their own social or otherwise content whilst they are at it?
And who says you won't be able to create your own social content in TOR? Oh wait. Nobody. You know what happens when you assume...
I'm sorry, you're right. Everyone will be in their own little bubble and BioWare will do absolutely nothing to encourage bubbles to mix. They'll just let everyone float around and laugh because people are so venomously against interacting with each other. It's like we're allergic to other people, I swear. Thus, we need developers to offer us incentives to talk, to group, to trade, to do just about anything with other players. Pretty sad.
i wasn't assuming anything on swtor, i was replying to another post which, if you read it, it states that "everyone" knew swtor would be kotor online and that was it.
secondly. so far i haven't seen or heard (in fact the opposite is happening) from bioware that will in fact "encourage" people to talk, trade, group etc.
they already said it was going to be single player friendly and that quests would be the main component.
its not enough to add chat features, dances, grouping, etc IF you don't need to use them. most people will log in, and find the shortest and fastest way from A to B, and nothing which doesn't need to hinder their XP gain will do so. and for all we know XP comes from their glorified story line.
so... as you rightly put it, its the INCENTIVES that are of concern in this topic conversation, not the actual features themselves.
now if you can provide any hint as to what those incentives are and if they are actually coming please enlighten me.
Unfortunately, all of you idiots think you are unique and delicate snowflakes and that Bioware needs to create a game where you can be creative and set up your own story in the middle of their storyline. Did any of you even play KOTOR? It is basically an RPG on rails. Every once in a while you got to decide which storyline came first, but fundamentally you were given a choice of different tracks that all started and ended in the same place.
SWTOR has been called KOTOR 3 to Infinity, which part of that was unclear?
If you don't want a RPG on rails and didn't like KOTOR, you probably won't like SWTOR. Trying to change a game into the game you want is ultimately unfulfilling and foolish. If you don't like what is currently offered, I'm sure you are smart enough to pick up a C# book and build your own MMO in a year or two. You are special and unique, right?
ah finally someone with brains comes along!
unlile kotor, my esteemed friend, i would like to explain to you that this is as massive multiplayer game (it means you play online with other people simultaniously).
wouldn't it struck you as odd to play a game with thousands of players but those thousands of players do not make the slightest of impact to your gaming experience?
us, of lesser brains and imagination, have thought about it for some time and i have reached the conclusion that if a game decides to be online and attract all these people, it might as well allow them to play together and who knows; maybe create their own social or otherwise content whilst they are at it?
And who says you won't be able to create your own social content in TOR? Oh wait. Nobody. You know what happens when you assume...
I'm sorry, you're right. Everyone will be in their own little bubble and BioWare will do absolutely nothing to encourage bubbles to mix. They'll just let everyone float around and laugh because people are so venomously against interacting with each other. It's like we're allergic to other people, I swear. Thus, we need developers to offer us incentives to talk, to group, to trade, to do just about anything with other players. Pretty sad.
i wasn't assuming anything on swtor, i was replying to another post which, if you read it, it states that "everyone" knew swtor would be kotor online and that was it.
secondly. so far i haven't seen or heard (in fact the opposite is happening) from bioware that will in fact "encourage" people to talk, trade, group etc.
they already said it was going to be single player friendly and that quests would be the main component.
its not enough to add chat features, dances, grouping, etc IF you don't need to use them. most people will log in, and find the shortest and fastest way from A to B, and nothing which doesn't need to hinder their XP gain will do so. and for all we know XP comes from their glorified story line.
so... as you rightly put it, its the INCENTIVES that are of concern in this topic conversation, not the actual features themselves.
now if you can provide any hint as to what those incentives are and if they are actually coming please enlighten me.
The real question now is, if I showed you BioWare quotes stating this will be a group based game, that there are incentives to grouping and that the combat was built with PvP specifically in mind, would you believe what BioWare has stated?
Unfortunately, all of you idiots think you are unique and delicate snowflakes and that Bioware needs to create a game where you can be creative and set up your own story in the middle of their storyline. Did any of you even play KOTOR? It is basically an RPG on rails. Every once in a while you got to decide which storyline came first, but fundamentally you were given a choice of different tracks that all started and ended in the same place.
SWTOR has been called KOTOR 3 to Infinity, which part of that was unclear?
If you don't want a RPG on rails and didn't like KOTOR, you probably won't like SWTOR. Trying to change a game into the game you want is ultimately unfulfilling and foolish. If you don't like what is currently offered, I'm sure you are smart enough to pick up a C# book and build your own MMO in a year or two. You are special and unique, right?
ah finally someone with brains comes along!
unlile kotor, my esteemed friend, i would like to explain to you that this is as massive multiplayer game (it means you play online with other people simultaniously).
wouldn't it struck you as odd to play a game with thousands of players but those thousands of players do not make the slightest of impact to your gaming experience?
us, of lesser brains and imagination, have thought about it for some time and i have reached the conclusion that if a game decides to be online and attract all these people, it might as well allow them to play together and who knows; maybe create their own social or otherwise content whilst they are at it?
And who says you won't be able to create your own social content in TOR? Oh wait. Nobody. You know what happens when you assume...
I'm sorry, you're right. Everyone will be in their own little bubble and BioWare will do absolutely nothing to encourage bubbles to mix. They'll just let everyone float around and laugh because people are so venomously against interacting with each other. It's like we're allergic to other people, I swear. Thus, we need developers to offer us incentives to talk, to group, to trade, to do just about anything with other players. Pretty sad.
i wasn't assuming anything on swtor, i was replying to another post which, if you read it, it states that "everyone" knew swtor would be kotor online and that was it.
secondly. so far i haven't seen or heard (in fact the opposite is happening) from bioware that will in fact "encourage" people to talk, trade, group etc.
they already said it was going to be single player friendly and that quests would be the main component.
its not enough to add chat features, dances, grouping, etc IF you don't need to use them. most people will log in, and find the shortest and fastest way from A to B, and nothing which doesn't need to hinder their XP gain will do so. and for all we know XP comes from their glorified story line.
so... as you rightly put it, its the INCENTIVES that are of concern in this topic conversation, not the actual features themselves.
now if you can provide any hint as to what those incentives are and if they are actually coming please enlighten me.
The real question now is, if I showed you BioWare quotes stating this will be a group based game, that there are incentives to grouping and that the combat was built with PvP specifically in mind, would you believe what BioWare has stated?
of course i would believe it.
i trully hope that incentives which maximise the use (or point?) of having thousands of people online come along.
as far as pvp goes, one can only hope that its meaningful beyond simply shooting at people and doesn't turn out to be a flop such as WAR, Aoc, etc. (the first one being a mindless battleground ala counterstrike and the second a bug-infested and pointless siege system which accomplishes nothing but to demolish walls for the sake of it.
I agree that a true story has been lacking in most MMO's. But having a story in an MMO shouldn't mean running through the game on rails with no choices by the player. The best MMO story would be stories that ate taking place in the world regardless of the players. Then the play can pick and choice where they want to fit into the story. Then pregress your character accordingly while also affecting the game world with your actions. Most games lack a true persistance in the world. No mater what you do, the game will not change because of you the player. Hopefully some day a MMO will allow players to interact with ever changing stories in game that affect everything around them. With new stories added as content. Not just levels and more grind.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
MMOs are not about pre written quests. Pre written storyes. And never changing pre set world.
They are not just single player RPGs that can be played with other players on internet.
There is a reason why original MMOs didnt have story - because it was your story -
The MMOs are blank slate in order for player to write their own story, and to mold the world , change it.
Colectively create the story line together.
But that is all lost. Thanks to guys like you.
ugh.
That is a bold statment but I don't believe it's true.
I don't believe for a minute that game developers sat down and said "well, we could have quests but perhaps it would be more interesting to forgo all of that and allow players to create their own content".
What I do believe is that developers had limited time and money and just a love for creating an online world and did what they could with what they had.
Add ot that the idea the developers are "computer developers" and not necessarily writers or artists.
Oh sure, I've met some creative computer guys and some who have very legitimate creative chops, but put a good many of them in a room with actual writers and artists and the differences become very clear. there is always a palpable difference between well written quests and quests that feel like they were created by some guy who was asked to write a few quests.
Not to mention that here you have software developers who are spending an innordinate amount of time making the game work. So much easier to leave the quests until later or just let the players come up whatever floats their boat.
There is a reason that great games employ writers and artists. Because they do what they do and do it so well.
I remember speaking to a web designer and I had told him that I was thinking of getting into it but would be more interested in the art design and flow of the pages over the nuts and bolts "under the hood" stuff. He commented that that was good as there were so many web developers who had to do all of that but who would prefer the nuts and bolts stuff.
And it shows. Of the people I know who do some sort of development with computers, all of them are whizzes with the technical stuff but their creative juices can sometime feel forced. Or in one best case scenario, a friend of mine can do the art stuff but she would much rather do the under the hood stuff because "creating something artistic and interesting from nothing is really hard".
Yet that is the bread and butter of actual artists/writers.
I think it far more likely developers discovered how shallow the majority of MMORPG players have become. In my opinion, it's far easier to cater to mindless zombies than to people with an actual soul and an active imagination.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Good to see Bioware's plan of making ridiculous statements in order to get more people talking about their game and thus generate more views/interest in the game is working, working so well we have two threads on the same topic and both keep getting posted on every couple minutes.
Bioware marketting 1, everyone who took part in it 0.
I think it far more likely developers discovered how shallow the majority of MMORPG players have become. In my opinion, it's far easier to cater to mindless zombies than to people with an actual soul and an active imagination.
Maybe it's because they don't like making games for elitists?
us, of lesser brains and imagination, have thought about it for some time and i have reached the conclusion that if a game decides to be online and attract all these people, it might as well allow them to play together and who knows; maybe create their own social or otherwise content whilst they are at it?
Those of us with greater brains and imagination wouldn't be putting in systems that indirectly discourage grouping.
Some of us realize you can do both....
It's entirely possible to cater to both, why is it so hard to accept that? There are players who like to group, there are players who like going solo, then there are others like me who do both regularly. Because most MMO's allow it. Most always have.
There's no need to focus on just one segment of the MMO population in this regard. Someone said a few posts back some people just kick and scream all the while knowing, they have the option to do what they're screaming for. Yet they don't do it unless it's forced on them. That's pretty much spot on, the only people hurt by options are those he's referring to. Good riddance if you ask me, most of these players are void of any social skill outside of whining (that's why they need forced grouping), who needs them? We'd probably be better off in most games without them.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think it far more likely developers discovered how shallow the majority of MMORPG players have become. In my opinion, it's far easier to cater to mindless zombies than to people with an actual soul and an active imagination.
Maybe it's because they don't like making games for elitists?
LoL, if being elitist means wanting to be part of something bigger than a quest/gear grind, then maybe you are right.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
It's entirely possible to cater to both, why is it so hard to accept that?
It isn't true. You are either soloing or playing with others. The soloers want the game changed to suit them, and the groupers want it changed to suit them. Any system that encourages soloing, discourages grouping; and vice-versa.
There are players who like to group, there are players who like going solo, then there are others like me who do both regularly. Because most MMO's allow it. Most always have.
There's no need to focus on just one segment of the MMO population in this regard.
Yes, there is. There should be games specifically for grouping. Attempts to bribe soloers into grouping result in bad groups.
Someone said a few posts back some people just kick and scream all the while knowing, they have the option to do what they're screaming for. Yet they don't do it unless it's forced on them. That's pretty much spot on, the only people hurt by options are those he's referring to. Good riddance if you ask me, most of these players are void of any social skill outside of whining (that's why they need forced grouping), who needs them? We'd probably be better off in most games without them.
Great display of social skills there, yourself, BTW.
It's laughable to suggest that soloers have better social skills than groupers.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
MMOs are not about pre written quests. Pre written storyes. And never changing pre set world.
They are not just single player RPGs that can be played with other players on internet.
There is a reason why original MMOs didnt have story - because it was your story -
The MMOs are blank slate in order for player to write their own story, and to mold the world , change it.
Colectively create the story line together.
But that is all lost. Thanks to guys like you.
ugh.
That is a bold statment but I don't believe it's true.
I don't believe for a minute that game developers sat down and said "well, we could have quests but perhaps it would be more interesting to forgo all of that and allow players to create their own content".
What I do believe is that developers had limited time and money and just a love for creating an online world and did what they could with what they had.
Add ot that the idea the developers are "computer developers" and not necessarily writers or artists.
Oh sure, I've met some creative computer guys and some who have very legitimate creative chops, but put a good many of them in a room with actual writers and artists and the differences become very clear. there is always a palpable difference between well written quests and quests that feel like they were created by some guy who was asked to write a few quests.
Not to mention that here you have software developers who are spending an innordinate amount of time making the game work. So much easier to leave the quests until later or just let the players come up whatever floats their boat.
There is a reason that great games employ writers and artists. Because they do what they do and do it so well.
I remember speaking to a web designer and I had told him that I was thinking of getting into it but would be more interested in the art design and flow of the pages over the nuts and bolts "under the hood" stuff. He commented that that was good as there were so many web developers who had to do all of that but who would prefer the nuts and bolts stuff.
And it shows. Of the people I know who do some sort of development with computers, all of them are whizzes with the technical stuff but their creative juices can sometime feel forced. Or in one best case scenario, a friend of mine can do the art stuff but she would much rather do the under the hood stuff because "creating something artistic and interesting from nothing is really hard".
Yet that is the bread and butter of actual artists/writers.
I think it far more likely developers discovered how shallow the majority of MMORPG players have become. In my opinion, it's far easier to cater to mindless zombies than to people with an actual soul and an active imagination.
hmm, so if your a mindless zombie then kotor online is the game you didnt know you were waiting for? but thats okay, everyone else can play Eve
Comments
If you, for one minute think an MMORPG is nothing more than grinding and dungeon crawling for better gear than you my friend have a problem. No where in his statement he said TOR is a single player game with a sub. If you knew how to actually comphrehend, you would have understood that he was making a point on how most mmo's pretty much sets you on a grinding treadmill that leads you to end game with even more grinding for gear. Let's get that straight, i said MMO's not MMORPG's. There's a big differance in the two and TOR will finally be the game to bring it out in a massive way.
Yet, even as he said that, Bioware (from reading others interviews on this subject), understands that people do like doing that and that is fun for many. That's why TOR will still support alot of differant playstyles, so even if you don't care about the story, your option to get involved or not, the game will have all the standard MMO features that most other games have today. They may do them in a new innovative way or just try and polish what is already known to work.
What i can't figure out is why some of you have such a hard-on for trying to stop what others see as fun. I keep seeing the same bitchers and moaners in every TOR thread, with how this is gonna suck or this is a single player game and such, and it just baffles me. Are you people just that insecure about what direction your current game is heading and think all of your little friends will leave you behind when TOR comes out.
TOR is gonna be a huge game from all indications and you will either like it or not. If not, then please do everyone that is enjoying what they are seeing a favor and just go play whatever game you're playing and troll somewhere else.
In a themepark game, yep. It requires a sand box to do it right. You have to be able to choose your own long-term goals.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
ugh.
That is a bold statment but I don't believe it's true.
I don't believe for a minute that game developers sat down and said "well, we could have quests but perhaps it would be more interesting to forgo all of that and allow players to create their own content".
What I do believe is that developers had limited time and money and just a love for creating an online world and did what they could with what they had.
Add ot that the idea the developers are "computer developers" and not necessarily writers or artists.
Oh sure, I've met some creative computer guys and some who have very legitimate creative chops, but put a good many of them in a room with actual writers and artists and the differences become very clear. there is always a palpable difference between well written quests and quests that feel like they were created by some guy who was asked to write a few quests.
Not to mention that here you have software developers who are spending an innordinate amount of time making the game work. So much easier to leave the quests until later or just let the players come up whatever floats their boat.
There is a reason that great games employ writers and artists. Because they do what they do and do it so well.
I remember speaking to a web designer and I had told him that I was thinking of getting into it but would be more interested in the art design and flow of the pages over the nuts and bolts "under the hood" stuff. He commented that that was good as there were so many web developers who had to do all of that but who would prefer the nuts and bolts stuff.
And it shows. Of the people I know who do some sort of development with computers, all of them are whizzes with the technical stuff but their creative juices can sometime feel forced. Or in one best case scenario, a friend of mine can do the art stuff but she would much rather do the under the hood stuff because "creating something artistic and interesting from nothing is really hard".
Yet that is the bread and butter of actual artists/writers.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I would say that in this MMO you can either have a choice. The choice is a simple matter of doing the storyline quests or not. BioWare aren't going to force you to do them.
I have been in way to many MMO's with no storylines or backgrounds in them. Its been a endless grind fest. I am glad that developers are looking to move away from this. Mortal Online looks like a good MMO that is soon to be released with simular kind of things but set in a fantasy world.
Unfortunately, all of you idiots think you are unique and delicate snowflakes and that Bioware needs to create a game where you can be creative and set up your own story in the middle of their storyline. Did any of you even play KOTOR? It is basically an RPG on rails. Every once in a while you got to decide which storyline came first, but fundamentally you were given a choice of different tracks that all started and ended in the same place.
SWTOR has been called KOTOR 3 to Infinity, which part of that was unclear?
If you don't want a RPG on rails and didn't like KOTOR, you probably won't like SWTOR. Trying to change a game into the game you want is ultimately unfulfilling and foolish. If you don't like what is currently offered, I'm sure you are smart enough to pick up a C# book and build your own MMO in a year or two. You are special and unique, right?
No. Even with a sandbox like EVE, that'll just be "rewarding and eventful gameplay", not story.
Even with themeparks, we don't have story now, not in the professional, literal sense. We just have some pseudo-colorful events juxtaposed childishly and amateurishly to give some semblance of a story. They're devoid of depth, even devoid of a sense of character arc apart from the mechanics provided by "leveling" itself (which honestly is no character arc). The motives don't work, and nothing really has any dramatic impact.
Now, a sandbox game like EVE, it at least does have impact, because it makes you care about your toon via the harsh death penalty and it sets its focus squarely on social interaction, so your dealings with others can carry dramatic weight. Admittedly, until now EVE has done this better than story-based MMOs.
Still that doesn't change the fact that you have no story - no more than anybody's life is a "story", anyway, they're just related events. A real story has an intentional structure that enables it communicate more than mere events. Games can aspire to this, several single player games have. It's just that the theme park MMOs up to now have been a far cry from real storytelling.
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
"voice acting. Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value."
I completely disagree, strong voice acting can enhance an RPG IMO.It helps in making my role believable. As the characters I'm interacting with have a soul to them. A great example of that would be The Witcher. Sure scripted RPG's can be great as well, Morrowind comes to mind here.
Characters were still voiced to an extent however you had to read most of what they had to say. I for one prefer the Voice over approach.It may not be an "RPG element" however to me it's far more than a "production value", it helps bring the game world alive, enhancing the experience. Making it easier to fill the role I'm playing. This can make a huge difference in an MMO for me. As AOC has shown.
I've always been a sandbox player and I love the concept, I still understand the point D.E. is making here. As far as the world is concerned in MMO's, especially sandbox MMO's. There's no life in it, nothing says the world is believable outside of player based interaction. The world itself is dead and extremely artificial, IMO this is what makes a lot of MMO's seem as though there is no point to them. If there was no player interaction (slow day, dying game etc...) the game would feel lifeless, voice over on top of compelling story lines could go a long way toward fixing that IMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
ah finally someone with brains comes along!
unlile kotor, my esteemed friend, i would like to explain to you that this is as massive multiplayer game (it means you play online with other people simultaniously).
wouldn't it struck you as odd to play a game with thousands of players but those thousands of players do not make the slightest of impact to your gaming experience?
us, of lesser brains and imagination, have thought about it for some time and i have reached the conclusion that if a game decides to be online and attract all these people, it might as well allow them to play together and who knows; maybe create their own social or otherwise content whilst they are at it?
And because of games like WoW being a massive hit with non MMO players.
Slightly off topic but it seems SWToR has been getting a lot of coverage of late, which would be impressive if the game was about to come out and they want to move boxes and want everyone to be talking about it. Less good if its a year away and your giving people a long time to mull over everything someone says and find fault (its the internet we don't find praise) with it.
So I wonder if its all part of some cunning marketing plan to up the hype level ready for a surprise annoucement that the game will be coming out much sooner than expected and hopefully then not be over shadowed by Guild Wars 2, The Warcraft Expansion or even that Clone Wars Adventures.
And who says you won't be able to create your own social content in TOR? Oh wait. Nobody. You know what happens when you assume...
I'm sorry, you're right. Everyone will be in their own little bubble and BioWare will do absolutely nothing to encourage bubbles to mix. They'll just let everyone float around and laugh because people are so venomously against interacting with each other. It's like we're allergic to other people, I swear. Thus, we need developers to offer us incentives to talk, to group, to trade, to do just about anything with other players. Pretty sad.
Those of us with greater brains and imagination wouldn't be putting in systems that indirectly discourage grouping.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
It requires a drive to do it Comnitus. I think I'm seeing choice and drive being real issues for a lot of the community here. If they aren't forced to do it, then they won't do it. If they don't force me to group, then I'm just going to solo and not enjoy it because I want a grouping game. They don't force me to setup a blockade in a PvP zone for the story and roleplaying aspect of it, so I'm not going to do it and just complain about it later.
Its easier to complain about people not forcing you to do something you want to do then just doing it because you can if you want to. To some people the best thing we can do, is take away options from them... and yet we still get chastised because its a "theme park"
i wasn't assuming anything on swtor, i was replying to another post which, if you read it, it states that "everyone" knew swtor would be kotor online and that was it.
secondly. so far i haven't seen or heard (in fact the opposite is happening) from bioware that will in fact "encourage" people to talk, trade, group etc.
they already said it was going to be single player friendly and that quests would be the main component.
its not enough to add chat features, dances, grouping, etc IF you don't need to use them. most people will log in, and find the shortest and fastest way from A to B, and nothing which doesn't need to hinder their XP gain will do so. and for all we know XP comes from their glorified story line.
so... as you rightly put it, its the INCENTIVES that are of concern in this topic conversation, not the actual features themselves.
now if you can provide any hint as to what those incentives are and if they are actually coming please enlighten me.
The real question now is, if I showed you BioWare quotes stating this will be a group based game, that there are incentives to grouping and that the combat was built with PvP specifically in mind, would you believe what BioWare has stated?
Honestly, MW, this is a very naive attitude. You have followed the development of other MMOs, right?
This is text book dev-speak.
If they want us to believe it, they have to show it, not just offer a few vague statements.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
of course i would believe it.
i trully hope that incentives which maximise the use (or point?) of having thousands of people online come along.
as far as pvp goes, one can only hope that its meaningful beyond simply shooting at people and doesn't turn out to be a flop such as WAR, Aoc, etc. (the first one being a mindless battleground ala counterstrike and the second a bug-infested and pointless siege system which accomplishes nothing but to demolish walls for the sake of it.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
I think it far more likely developers discovered how shallow the majority of MMORPG players have become. In my opinion, it's far easier to cater to mindless zombies than to people with an actual soul and an active imagination.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Good to see Bioware's plan of making ridiculous statements in order to get more people talking about their game and thus generate more views/interest in the game is working, working so well we have two threads on the same topic and both keep getting posted on every couple minutes.
Bioware marketting 1, everyone who took part in it 0.
Maybe it's because they don't like making games for elitists?
Some of us realize you can do both....
It's entirely possible to cater to both, why is it so hard to accept that? There are players who like to group, there are players who like going solo, then there are others like me who do both regularly. Because most MMO's allow it. Most always have.
There's no need to focus on just one segment of the MMO population in this regard. Someone said a few posts back some people just kick and scream all the while knowing, they have the option to do what they're screaming for. Yet they don't do it unless it's forced on them. That's pretty much spot on, the only people hurt by options are those he's referring to. Good riddance if you ask me, most of these players are void of any social skill outside of whining (that's why they need forced grouping), who needs them? We'd probably be better off in most games without them.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
LoL, if being elitist means wanting to be part of something bigger than a quest/gear grind, then maybe you are right.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Great display of social skills there, yourself, BTW.
It's laughable to suggest that soloers have better social skills than groupers.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
hmm, so if your a mindless zombie then kotor online is the game you didnt know you were waiting for? but thats okay, everyone else can play Eve