LOL it's hilarious how you WoW haters assume someone who defends it must be a fanboy.
I am bored with WoW. I still play, but far less than I used to. There's currently, IMHO, NOTHING
that's overall a better game.
My response was to the OP and the grand assumptions he was making regarding what people want in a game and
that this rant ... er, thread, is specifically directed at WoW.
Any game with a lot of subs obviously has what those people, by and large, want. ANY game, not just WoW.
Again with the subs.... look dudes and dudettes.... this is not a valid point to use as proof of a perfect game.
For frak's sake, MILLIONS of people eat mcdonalds every day, and only a few thousand may eat at red lobster per day. So, I guess McDonald's has better food, right? *sigh* subs mean absolutely jack-$hit when trying to map out the qualities and flaws of a game.
I agree that there is currently not much better out there in terms of polish, network performance, and size of community... BUT, that leaves a hell of a lot to wish for.
"Free world, with dungeons and PVP and crafting. Unique gear and to travel around the world exploring.""
And you know this how?
And even if true, the rest of your WoW basher of a post is your opinion projected on others.
How many subs does WoW have?
Here we go, how many subs....
Can you WoW fanbois come up with a REAL arguement? All the sub numbers prove is more people play that game. I mean this post made sense until the" nah nah na boo boo my games got more subs than yours does" crap. It was all the OP's opinion, but guess what? It IS his opinion and he IS entitled to it even if he does not like your chosen game with all its subs!
There's what 1billion plus people living in communist China, so I guess that means subjigating your citizens to abusive rules and human right violations is the right way to govern since they have more people than any other country. That makes no sense and neither does this how many subs does WoW have stupidity. It's an arguement that is used because truth be told, those that use it have nothing else better to say.
If you like WoW, GREAT! Play WoW! If someone posts that they don't GREAT! They don't have to like it because it has more subs than any other game. If 12.5 million people started playing Wizzard 101 I guess that would be the greatest MMO ever created and noone better say anything bad about it then huh?
Nice job not only misunderstanding what I was saying, but then proceeding to have a nice little hissy fit over it.
So do you know how many subs it has? Are those numbers meaningless? I guess to a WoW hater they would be.
Also, I never said it made the game 'good'. There is no absolute in a game. It's what people want, and what is fun for them.
Awful funny that Vanguard is the spiritual sucessor of EQ yet you seem to vehemently despise EQ? What about WoW? Tired of the same old same old =p?
Not true at all. I had fun in EQ, I have more now than I did in EQ. I played EQ for years. I would never do something for years that I didn't like doing. And while some things in Vanguard are very eqish (the challenge in the game, the nice exploration, the diversity in roles) it is actually pretty different. For one there is no need at all, ever, to grind.
I haven't ever felt inclined to stay in one spot and repeatedly go after the mobs in the area. Very very different from EQ. That and the sheer number of quests there is makes it again very very different from EQ.
Standing in one spot for hours pulling mobs. No thanks. No need to do that anymore thank god.
and yes IMO grinding has always been a bad thing, even in EQ. Repetitive can be ok and that isn't a grind, but the minute it becomes dull and monotonous that is a grind, and that is horrible gameplay design.
In EQ I played a bard mostly, about as ungrindy, unmonotonous (if thas a word) and unrepetitive as you can get. Fits me perfectly.
Venge
edit: and then the crafting, and gathering of materials is completely different from EQ, and then diplomacy. So actually I think there is far differences between EQ and Vanguard than there are are similarities.
Venge brother. Calm down! Please take a moment to read your own forum signature! The Grind is in your mind as far as EQ went! Just because you played EQ in a very very grindy way doesn't mean you HAD TO! It was probably the fastest way to level but not the only way. I was one of those EQ players that spent time soloing a large part of my epic and the other awesome quests EQ did have (Coldain Prayer Shawl anyone?). It didn't have quantity of quests it had quality and alot of people miss that or skipped over every EQ quest (your loss).
WoW the predecessor of EQ seems to have stagnated the evolution of the mmorpg genre rather than perpetuating it in many respects. This is my opinion but many people on this site share a similar line of thought on this subject.
You say you played a Bard in EQ and that's great. One of the most powerful outdoor soloers (possibly indoor with charm) in EQ and yet you choose to group grind? Also does WoW have any class even half as complex as your EQ bard? I know they don't and so do you! This is what I mean by stagnation and if you take the time to look there are many instances where this is the case. All WoW did for the genre was make it extremely accessible to all ages/creeds/game times! This is great and all but WTB a new game for the rest of us there that aren't content with what WoW offers.
Um... I'm not upset or even excited at all.
Yes my sig does state my belief about grind. And yes I completely agree that in EQ the grind was my perception. However lets say that I find it much easier in todays games to change that perception because I feel that I have many more options in todays games. The possible exception being UO, but I never played that so can't comment on it.
I did quite a number of the quests and didn't find them particularly engaging. I think I did like were the epic quest. I never actually finished that but I like the idea of a single over-arching quest or purpose. Thats why I play Istaria, as boring as that game is at times, it feels like there is a purpose to why I'm doing it.
I choose to group at times, qutie a lot actually, and solo at time. Actually one of my favorite activities were soloing virtually every durn giant in FM, before they nerfed bard kites to 10 or so. Man I loved doing that. And in response to the sig, often I enjoyed getting a good group and camping a spot, but when I felt it was becoming too grindy I would leave to do other things. I just feel that in games today I have more of those other things to do.
If you want a new game that goes against this current trend, you are going to somehow have to convince the developers that what you has a good chance of making them some money. It won't be done otherwise, these games are far far too expensive to make and seem to be too risky to do otherwise.
Part of my issue is: I just get bored withe these games. All of them. I've never made it to end game in any computer based game I've ever played in my life. My highest in EQ was 55 bard (did play monk and druid as well but not as high). My highest ever in WoW is 64 druid, Istaria was 70/74 Dragon. I've never finished dragon age, mass effect, any of the FF games. After so many hours/days/weeks/months playing you have done virtually all the activities there are.
I too would like a game where there are even more options for playstyles. Don't say games like Ryzom becuase in truth that game is just magic fight, melee fight and dig in the dirt for months and months on end. Every fighting style is exactly the same as every other one, same with magic, and crafting.
The most successfull games have the most varied of tasks because people do get bored. Grind when I want, group when I want, craft when I want, pvp when I want, follow linear storylines when I want, customize my character and my look when I want. Right now WoW lets me do many of these options, more than the other games I've played, but not all.. not yet. Sometimes I'm great for grouping and am gun ho and will group for hours; other times I'm tired, want to relax and just follow an enjoyable storyboard prescripted event. The game that lets me choose how I game will get my money and/or I will just have to play several games at once.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
LOL it's hilarious how you WoW haters assume someone who defends it must be a fanboy.
I am bored with WoW. I still play, but far less than I used to. There's currently, IMHO, NOTHING
that's overall a better game.
My response was to the OP and the grand assumptions he was making regarding what people want in a game and
that this rant ... er, thread, is specifically directed at WoW.
Any game with a lot of subs obviously has what those people, by and large, want. ANY game, not just WoW.
Again with the subs.... look dudes and dudettes.... this is not a valid point to use as proof of a perfect game.
For frak's sake, MILLIONS of people eat mcdonalds every day, and only a few thousand may eat at red lobster per day. So, I guess McDonald's has better food, right? *sigh* subs mean absolutely jack-$hit when trying to map out the qualities and flaws of a game.
I agree that there is currently not much better out there in terms of polish, network performance, and size of community... BUT, that leaves a hell of a lot to wish for.
I never said lots of subs = perfect game (where did you get that idea?).
The OP chose to make a grand generalization about all MMO players (as if he knew millions of people).
LOTS of people think it's a good game. That's all.
And of course lots of subs doesn't speak to the quality of a game. Never said it did. It only speaks to what THOSE people think of the game to refute the OP's main point.
Vanguard has seamless dungeons. Maybe the OP isn't as out of his mind as he would seem at first lol!
It also has a low population. It gets damn rough to get anything done when you have to wait in line behind 30 other people for a mob that pops once an hour. There's ways to speed it up, but if you're trying to get people to stay with the least amount of updates as possible, you'll make items harder to get. Now if items are irrelevent, then you have to have different bait on that hook. In EQ atleast low end dungeons like Solsec A tended to be empty, while at the high end, people waited in line to get stuff. That, atleast was my experience from 7 years ago.
LOL it's hilarious how you WoW haters assume someone who defends it must be a fanboy.
I am bored with WoW. I still play, but far less than I used to. There's currently, IMHO, NOTHING
that's overall a better game.
My response was to the OP and the grand assumptions he was making regarding what people want in a game and
that this rant ... er, thread, is specifically directed at WoW.
Any game with a lot of subs obviously has what those people, by and large, want. ANY game, not just WoW.
Again with the subs.... look dudes and dudettes.... this is not a valid point to use as proof of a perfect game.
For frak's sake, MILLIONS of people eat mcdonalds every day, and only a few thousand may eat at red lobster per day. So, I guess McDonald's has better food, right? *sigh* subs mean absolutely jack-$hit when trying to map out the qualities and flaws of a game.
I agree that there is currently not much better out there in terms of polish, network performance, and size of community... BUT, that leaves a hell of a lot to wish for.
McDonalds may not be better tasting. But it does mean for those millions of people that due to it's price, convenience and taste it isthe better option for those people at the time they decide to go.
Subs are proof that to those people playing that the game is worth their money. It is also proof to developrs just what kind of game people are willing to pay for, and therefore what kind of games they should be targeting- either that style or to look for an as yet untapped market.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
1 as a wow fanboi let me say this wow has the largest mmo community thus making it a wide variety of people to group with talk to and enjoy for social anxed individuals like myself. i hate people in general but enjoy online community because if i dont like you i can ignore you. ive known alot of people who have come and gone on wow its a game people leave people come back .
personally i like the grouping status of wow it eliminates the issue of waiting for guilidies to log on in order to do instances all mmo are a grind any way you look at it you grind to level you grind for gear and before you know it they release an expansion and your grind begins again its the mmo worlds been that way since the beginning . real life is a grind you grind to reach adulthood you grind to get better gear you grind to get more money you rest to build up rest xp and you start the grind all over again .
wow is not the be all end all of mmo's but it is the social giant at the moment until the next best thing comes out and beats it in my eyes im hoping it will be the old republic but we will see .
dont judge those of us that support wow and just because we enjoy it doesnt mean its everyone elses bag of goodies but because we enjoy it doesnt mean you can call us fanbois because if thats the case then we can call you a fanboi of flaming because you seem to enjoy doing that
"Free world, with dungeons and PVP and crafting. Unique gear and to travel around the world exploring.""
And you know this how?
And even if true, the rest of your WoW basher of a post is your opinion projected on others.
How many subs does WoW have?
Here we go, how many subs....
Can you WoW fanbois come up with a REAL arguement? All the sub numbers prove is more people play that game. I mean this post made sense until the" nah nah na boo boo my games got more subs than yours does" crap. It was all the OP's opinion, but guess what? It IS his opinion and he IS entitled to it even if he does not like your chosen game with all its subs!
There's what 1billion plus people living in communist China, so I guess that means subjigating your citizens to abusive rules and human right violations is the right way to govern since they have more people than any other country. That makes no sense and neither does this how many subs does WoW have stupidity. It's an arguement that is used because truth be told, those that use it have nothing else better to say.
If you like WoW, GREAT! Play WoW! If someone posts that they don't GREAT! They don't have to like it because it has more subs than any other game. If 12.5 million people started playing Wizzard 101 I guess that would be the greatest MMO ever created and noone better say anything bad about it then huh?
Nice job not only misunderstanding what I was saying, but then proceeding to have a nice little hissy fit over it.
So do you know how many subs it has? Are those numbers meaningless? I guess to a WoW hater they would be.
Also, I never said it made the game 'good'. There is no absolute in a game. It's what people want, and what is fun for them.
I think you are the one that missed the point dude. He just explained why you're constant retreat to wow's sub count is useless as a means of proving how good your game is.
Don't get me wrong, although WoW disgusts me now, I KNOW it's a very very very VERY well put together game... I mean, how can it not be after 7 years of post development and pulling in such huge profits.
All we're saying is that at this point it might be time for wow-defenders to take a step back and look at those "subs" and realize how many of those players are just bored, or stuck wishing for something better but have no options because of all the other AAA fantasy games offering the same thing wow does, or because their friends play and they don't want to be the only 'square' in the circle of wow friends, or what about gold farmers/account hackers (assuming it's not Blizzard hacking everyone) - I'm not saying any of this because of my distaste for wow. I spent almost 5 years loving wow. In that time, however, I noticed a LARGE amount of the community is only there because they're just used to logging in and doing their regiment. a bunch of bored ass players that don't wanna leave their guilds behind really.
"Free world, with dungeons and PVP and crafting. Unique gear and to travel around the world exploring."
So lets think of WOW.
"PVP Battlegrounds. Its oki. I see the idea of BG, its oki. BUT. You can enter them from whereever in the world, ANNDDD get back to where you where before." And its not like you fight in your world, you just fight. You fight ppl from another server. The BG has absolutely NOTHING to do with your massively world. It only has something to do with your grind to get better gear. So to sum up, BG are ONLY for getting better gear. (Ofc. its also fun, but the meaning in fighting makes NO sense).
Oki now dungeon. You can also enter dungeon from everywhere. And get back again. You play cross server so why talk to your team members. No reason, your there to grind not to make an army. No actually plan about doing dungeons in WOW its just there for grinding gear. And ofc. it can be fun. But still, NO reason at all. . . Now they made it so you can only loot the gear that fits you. so as rogue you cant loot hunter gear. . . So even more, its just to grind. You cant be the sad person who steal others stuff, or you cant be the epic warrior because you just a 1 minute show in the dungeon. . . Even more sad things. When entering a dungeon in WOW you enter a server. Theres a server for each group. So you can actually be 100 teams in the same dungeon. And now its cross server, so to enter a dungeon in wow is just a "minigame" with no impact of the world.
My point is, this is NOT a cool game to me. And for many of us out there thinking of a cool mmo and what it should contain, WOW dossent contain ANYTHING of this. . . Oki. arenas and BG are fun, but it dossent make any change if you win it or not. It dossent change the world. . . Sadness i would say. Wow is a project to get most players. They hired specialist in addictive gameplay and implemented THAT into the gameplay.
WOW aint a world made for being in an adventure. Its made for us, me, you and others to pay the most money. You will never be anything unique in WOW and thats sad. Cause there are MMO's out there that actually offers these options.
MO, Darkfall, Eve and prop more. So when your done with WOW, start playing the real stuff.
So you dont like the game, it is still just game, so why not simply find a game that you do like?
Apparently most gamers dont give a shit about what other MMO's could offer. It is not your task to enlighten them, mainly because it wont work anyway. Because most gamers dont even visit this website, let alone read some random gamer's drivel.
Try not to take these games too seriously and you might even find some enjoyment instead of the frustration that is very obvious in your post.
Oh, just so you know..I dont like WoW either, but going on a crusade about it is just ridiculous in my eyes.
"Free world, with dungeons and PVP and crafting. Unique gear and to travel around the world exploring.""
And you know this how?
And even if true, the rest of your WoW basher of a post is your opinion projected on others.
How many subs does WoW have?
Here we go, how many subs....
Can you WoW fanbois come up with a REAL arguement? All the sub numbers prove is more people play that game. I mean this post made sense until the" nah nah na boo boo my games got more subs than yours does" crap. It was all the OP's opinion, but guess what? It IS his opinion and he IS entitled to it even if he does not like your chosen game with all its subs!
There's what 1billion plus people living in communist China, so I guess that means subjigating your citizens to abusive rules and human right violations is the right way to govern since they have more people than any other country. That makes no sense and neither does this how many subs does WoW have stupidity. It's an arguement that is used because truth be told, those that use it have nothing else better to say.
If you like WoW, GREAT! Play WoW! If someone posts that they don't GREAT! They don't have to like it because it has more subs than any other game. If 12.5 million people started playing Wizzard 101 I guess that would be the greatest MMO ever created and noone better say anything bad about it then huh?
Nice job not only misunderstanding what I was saying, but then proceeding to have a nice little hissy fit over it.
So do you know how many subs it has? Are those numbers meaningless? I guess to a WoW hater they would be.
Also, I never said it made the game 'good'. There is no absolute in a game. It's what people want, and what is fun for them.
I think you are the one that missed the point dude. He just explained why you're constant retreat to wow's sub count is useless as a means of proving how good your game is.
Don't get me wrong, although WoW disgusts me now, I KNOW it's a very very very VERY well put together game... I mean, how can it not be after 7 years of post development and pulling in such huge profits.
All we're saying is that at this point it might be time for wow-defenders to take a step back and look at those "subs" and realize how many of those players are just bored, or stuck wishing for something better but have no options because of all the other AAA fantasy games offering the same thing wow does, or because their friends play and they don't want to be the only 'square' in the circle of wow friends, or what about gold farmers/account hackers (assuming it's not Blizzard hacking everyone) - I'm not saying any of this because of my distaste for wow. I spent almost 5 years loving wow. In that time, however, I noticed a LARGE amount of the community is only there because they're just used to logging in and doing their regiment. a bunch of bored ass players that don't wanna leave their guilds behind really.
Dude, this is what I was responding to in the OP:
<<Lets think. "What do i want in a MMO?"
Mostly ppl would answer:
"Free world, with dungeons and PVP and crafting. Unique gear and to travel around the world exploring.">>
If anywhere in this thread I said "lots of subs = good game" please point it out to me.
And why do WoW players need to 'take a step back' and analyze why people are playing?!? If someone is playing but having a bad time, THEN they need to take a step back.
I don't care why people are playing.
And one last time - I DID NOT INTEND TO USE SUB COUNT AS PROOF IT'S A GOOD GAME. I even stated that IN THE LAST PART OF THE VERY POST YOU REPLIED TO.
No one really gives much of a damn that you don't give a damn about his crusade either if you really wanna play that card. You might want to actually read some of the posts above yours to get the answer to why this topic continually comes up around these forums.
No one really gives much of a damn that you don't give a damn about his crusade either if you really wanna play that card. You might want to actually read some of the posts above yours to get the answer to why this topic continually comes up around these forums.
I never said that I dont give a damn. I only tried to explain that he is preaching to the choir.
No, WoW haters are VERY sad. I mean they come up with things like "most people think..." and "I want..." This is meaningless, its sad for you but all those other people are having fun in one way or another (why else would they pay sub).
You want a sandbox and be unique and jada jada jada but WoW does not cater to people like you it caters mainly to people who want to chill and have some easy and fun themepark. No one wants to grind something to get that very unique item after a hard day of work. It is not fun!
Now why would you guys hate WoW for this? Does EVERY fucking game has to be created for hardcore sandboxers or is that you are jeleous because the game you play suck and is dieing?
Oh, but yeah... everyone has to like the thing I like or else its sad... for them.
No, WoW haters are VERY sad. I mean they come up with things like "most people think..." and "I want..." This is meaningless, its sad for you but all those other people are having fun in one way or another (why else would they pay sub).
You want a sandbox and be unique and jada jada jada but WoW does not cater to people like you it caters mainly to people who want to chill and have some easy and fun themepark. No one wants to grind something to get that very unique item after a hard day of work. It is not fun!
Now why would you guys hate WoW for this? Does EVERY fucking game has to be created for hardcore sandboxers or is that you are jeleous because the game you play suck and is dieing?
Oh, but yeah... everyone has to like the thing I like or else its sad... for them.
I dont believe that people hates wow players,like they dont hate people who plays legos or dolls or plays war with toys or plays football ,whatever,but when those wow players ,lego players ,football whatever players are calling their game Role Playing Game,well i can only blame them,why in the heck they wanna call that Role Playing is still a mystery.
No, WoW haters are VERY sad. I mean they come up with things like "most people think..." and "I want..." This is meaningless, its sad for you but all those other people are having fun in one way or another (why else would they pay sub).
You want a sandbox and be unique and jada jada jada but WoW does not cater to people like you it caters mainly to people who want to chill and have some easy and fun themepark. No one wants to grind something to get that very unique item after a hard day of work. It is not fun!
Now why would you guys hate WoW for this? Does EVERY fucking game has to be created for hardcore sandboxers or is that you are jeleous because the game you play suck and is dieing?
Oh, but yeah... everyone has to like the thing I like or else its sad... for them.
I dont believe that people hates wow players,like they dont hate people who plays legos or dolls or plays war with toys or plays football ,whatever,but when those wow players ,lego players ,football whatever players are calling their game Role Playing Game,well i can only blame them,why in the heck they wanna call that Role Playing is still a mystery.
I dont think that RP definitions accepted on mmorpg.com should be undenyable truth. To me RPing is playing my warrior (in wow or in lotro or whatever) and every game where I can lvl up, slay monsters and buy armour is RP game to me because I play a role of a warior in it. So why would you flame the game or the players? Because their definition dont match yours? Why even care how they call the game THEY play? If you dont play it then why man, wth?
I still think that in a nutshell it is good old "you must like what I like".
Most everything you quoted is pretty much why I and many other people like it.
Pvp is one on our terms not someone else's. The battlegrounds are fun, that is the real reward, the gear is just icing.
I can get a group withiin minutes virtually any time I want. Dungeons are fun, but waiting for a group isn't. People talk in them all the time. That hasn't changed from EQ days, some talk others don't. The point of it is I get to choose how I play and don't have to wait for it. In EQ there were hours long waits, now it's 15 minutes for dps, and 4 seconds for tanks/healers.
I do think it is a fun game. It is one of the only games that really lets me choose how I want to play. Most other games it is grind, grind, grind. In WoW I have a whole variety of choices and don't have to wait to do any of them. When I'm bored with one, hop to the other, no hours waiting for it, no grind before it's usefull, you just do it.
My time is somewhat valuable to me, and while all games are time wasters, I want to waste as little as possible doing dull things before I get to have fun.
I feel adenture in it all the time, I still explore in it all the time. I've been too many of those other games and actually still do play some of them. Unfortunately they are normally grind at something for awhile till you can do something usefull than have fun.
Venge Sunsoar
I disagree with a substantial portion of your post.
First, pvp. My biggest problem with WoW's pvp is that they turned it into a minigame. It simply does not matter in any shape or fashion except as a vehicle to get more shinies. Play Lineage2, Aion, Eve Online. PvP in these games matter. Winning is awesome, losing is painful, and there's real substance there. WoW lost its pvp focus when they did the original pvp overhaul. Granted, having to put in 60 hours a week to get the top titles was ludicrous, but there were better ways to fix it than to make pvp worthless.
The same is true for dungeons. I admit, being able to find a dungeon group in seconds is simply amazing. However, I'm not sure it was at the cost of the community and player accountability. The way it works now, you log in, you queue, you enter the dungeon, no one says anything, half the people act like they're soloing, and you still manage to faceroll your way through the dungeon in about 15 minutes. Like pvp, the dungeons are now minigames, instead of an experience.
It's not just what you're doing that makes the game fun - it's how you do it. Sure, shinies are nice. But watching my group go nuts celebrating after we finally took down Lord Valthalak was better.
I dont believe that people hates wow players,like they dont hate people who plays legos or dolls or plays war with toys or plays football ,whatever,but when those wow players ,lego players ,football whatever players are calling their game Role Playing Game,well i can only blame them,why in the heck they wanna call that Role Playing is still a mystery.
I dont think that RP definitions accepted on mmorpg.com should be undenyable truth. To me RPing is playing my warrior (in wow or in lotro or whatever) and every game where I can lvl up, slay monsters and buy armour is RP game to me because I play a role of a warior in it. So why would you flame the game or the players? Because their definition dont match yours? Why even care how they call the game THEY play? If you dont play it then why man, wth?
I still think that in a nutshell it is good old "you must like what I like".
Is that so?because for your own good i really hope that you dont like what I like.
That "you must like what i like" attitude from wow forums just dont work in Role Playing Games.
Most everything you quoted is pretty much why I and many other people like it.
Pvp is one on our terms not someone else's. The battlegrounds are fun, that is the real reward, the gear is just icing.
I can get a group withiin minutes virtually any time I want. Dungeons are fun, but waiting for a group isn't. People talk in them all the time. That hasn't changed from EQ days, some talk others don't. The point of it is I get to choose how I play and don't have to wait for it. In EQ there were hours long waits, now it's 15 minutes for dps, and 4 seconds for tanks/healers.
I do think it is a fun game. It is one of the only games that really lets me choose how I want to play. Most other games it is grind, grind, grind. In WoW I have a whole variety of choices and don't have to wait to do any of them. When I'm bored with one, hop to the other, no hours waiting for it, no grind before it's usefull, you just do it.
My time is somewhat valuable to me, and while all games are time wasters, I want to waste as little as possible doing dull things before I get to have fun.
I feel adenture in it all the time, I still explore in it all the time. I've been too many of those other games and actually still do play some of them. Unfortunately they are normally grind at something for awhile till you can do something usefull than have fun.
Venge Sunsoar
I disagree with a substantial portion of your post.
First, pvp. My biggest problem with WoW's pvp is that they turned it into a minigame. It simply does not matter in any shape or fashion except as a vehicle to get more shinies. Play Lineage2, Aion, Eve Online. PvP in these games matter. Winning is awesome, losing is painful, and there's real substance there. WoW lost its pvp focus when they did the original pvp overhaul. Granted, having to put in 60 hours a week to get the top titles was ludicrous, but there were better ways to fix it than to make pvp worthless.
The same is true for dungeons. I admit, being able to find a dungeon group in seconds is simply amazing. However, I'm not sure it was at the cost of the community and player accountability. The way it works now, you log in, you queue, you enter the dungeon, no one says anything, half the people act like they're soloing, and you still manage to faceroll your way through the dungeon in about 15 minutes. Like pvp, the dungeons are now minigames, instead of an experience.
It's not just what you're doing that makes the game fun - it's how you do it. Sure, shinies are nice. But watching my group go nuts celebrating after we finally took down Lord Valthalak was better.
Thats ok. And actually I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Finally taking down a boss that that was extremely challenging is definatey very fun.
But for the rest we just look for and like different things. I don't particularly like or dislike pvp. I just want to engage it on my terms when I want, and ignore when I don't want it. So the meaningfullness of pvp, means absolutely nothing to me. I find more enjoyment in the battlegrounds than other forms of pvp. I actually am on Emerald Dream, an rppvp server. However the number of times I've been senselessly ganked versus engaging in fun pvp out in the world is vastly skewed towards the mindless ganking.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Oki i see there are different kinds of players and what they like. . . I think WOW has something to offer in BG and Arenas, but thats it.
I just dont get it why ppl are so interessted in that game... My friends aswell play it. Actually I got 4 friends just resubed. Im frustrated because i dont see the idea as many others does it.
For me WOW is crap if you want an adventure and something cool to look back to. Its more like an normal game actually. I wont compare WOW to a MMO because the idea with MMO's is a world with interaction from players. . . Beside arena ang bg in wow, its just a single player preparation.
OP wow is sad for YOU. So you dont like wow..so what. Millions of other like it and play it.
Im just frustrated. I dont like the idea behind the game. I wanna tell ppl that. Thats the only reason for this thread.
Maybe for some wow seems like an adventure, but as long as cross servers and multi same dungeons is there i dont see it. There are no reason to kill another player, there are no reason to go somewhere in the WHOLE world of Warcraft. ONLY for the grind.
I dont believe that people hates wow players,like they dont hate people who plays legos or dolls or plays war with toys or plays football ,whatever,but when those wow players ,lego players ,football whatever players are calling their game Role Playing Game,well i can only blame them,why in the heck they wanna call that Role Playing is still a mystery.
I dont think that RP definitions accepted on mmorpg.com should be undenyable truth. To me RPing is playing my warrior (in wow or in lotro or whatever) and every game where I can lvl up, slay monsters and buy armour is RP game to me because I play a role of a warior in it. So why would you flame the game or the players? Because their definition dont match yours? Why even care how they call the game THEY play? If you dont play it then why man, wth?
I still think that in a nutshell it is good old "you must like what I like".
Is that so?because for your own good i really hope that you dont like what I like.
That "you must like what i like" attitude from wow forums just dont work in Role Playing Games.
it was that easy to prove.
Well you actually havent proved anything... And I have no idea how did wow forums get into this discussion.
But ok, Im not in for pointless flamewars. The thing I want to say is that *I wish* people would drop that "its not sandbox its gay", "wow full of retards, if u play wow u r one" and "RP is what I say RP is cause i play since <insert old, grindy mmo>"
People have to be more tolerant to different things. Why hate when it *doesnt impact you in anyway*... I mean its sometimes goes over the top and reminds me KKK and black people (I know its hard to compare these things and I'm sorry if I insulted anyone but still) its different, its not what we want so lets hang it HURR DURRR. And you can really see a lot of this in these forums. And its funny how these people still try to pose very intelligent gamers. People need to be more tolerant.
Although I am currently playing WOW, most people know I have been a harsh critic of the game on many occasions. (some people actually think I hate theme park style games)
But here's a quick story. Last night I reconnected with an old friend who left WOW many years ago and recently returned to it like I did. While my return has been a bit melancoly, his has been a terrific success and he said he's having more fun now than ever before.
While I'm basically just killing time until RIFT/GW2/SWTOR/TERRA/Earthrise releasew, he, his brother and their friends are genuinely having a great time trying to get through their first heroic together.
When I told him my plans to move on to RIFT most likely in the near future, he dismissed the suggestion and said he was sticking with WOW for a long time to come.
Moral of story. While WOW does not deliver the gaming experience that I am looking for, it does a great job of delivering a ton of fun for my friend and millions of others just like him.
Too often we look at our own gaming preferences and deem them as the "correct" way for MMORPG's to be developed when in fact we're actually just a small niche in a sea of gamers.
Fact is, they really don't need my 15 dollars a month, since they can get my friends money with the designs they've chosen to pursue.
WOW may not be the perfect game for me, but there's no denying its a great game in its own right and hits it target market pretty much dead on.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
honestly, the only thing keeping Darkfall from being a great game is the lack of roaming monsters and wildlife in the wilderness. Otherwise, it is possibly one of the best MMO's out there right now.
Sorry to some of you noobs out here that can't get past the newbie area, but once you find a group of people to hang with and get your skills up and some gear ( GEAR IS NECESSARY ) it is a whole other world.
WoW - based on SWG themeparks and EQ gameplay, beautifully done and it has a loyal customerbase, no reason to bash those people, they prob wouldn't play MMO if it weren't for WoW. And while it's sad that most people want the easy brainless game , it boosts the MMO market, allowing for stuff like Darkfall to be created.
No, WoW haters are VERY sad. I mean they come up with things like "most people think..." and "I want..." This is meaningless, its sad for you but all those other people are having fun in one way or another (why else would they pay sub).
You want a sandbox and be unique and jada jada jada but WoW does not cater to people like you it caters mainly to people who want to chill and have some easy and fun themepark. No one wants to grind something to get that very unique item after a hard day of work. It is not fun!
Now why would you guys hate WoW for this? Does EVERY fucking game has to be created for hardcore sandboxers or is that you are jeleous because the game you play suck and is dieing?
Oh, but yeah... everyone has to like the thing I like or else its sad... for them.
So you say you DONT grind in WOW? Let me refresh how you grind from day 1 to the day you unsub. They add new gear each 6 month and OMG you obtain it the same way at last time. Are you kidding me?
I compare WOW to cigarettes. Its actually a nice comparison. Its evil but you can stop because of the nicotine.
Blizzard hired ppl to figure out the nicotine and implemented it in the gameplay.
Its bad to smoke, but ppl cant stop.
Its bad to play sucky games, but ppl cant stop.
Why you think some ppl died from playing wow? They forgot to eat. OMG.
Someones child died because they forgot her, because of the nicotine.
Some is trying to sue Blizzard for ruin there life.
Comments
Again with the subs.... look dudes and dudettes.... this is not a valid point to use as proof of a perfect game.
For frak's sake, MILLIONS of people eat mcdonalds every day, and only a few thousand may eat at red lobster per day. So, I guess McDonald's has better food, right? *sigh* subs mean absolutely jack-$hit when trying to map out the qualities and flaws of a game.
I agree that there is currently not much better out there in terms of polish, network performance, and size of community... BUT, that leaves a hell of a lot to wish for.
Nice job not only misunderstanding what I was saying, but then proceeding to have a nice little hissy fit over it.
So do you know how many subs it has? Are those numbers meaningless? I guess to a WoW hater they would be.
Also, I never said it made the game 'good'. There is no absolute in a game. It's what people want, and what is fun for them.
Um... I'm not upset or even excited at all.
Yes my sig does state my belief about grind. And yes I completely agree that in EQ the grind was my perception. However lets say that I find it much easier in todays games to change that perception because I feel that I have many more options in todays games. The possible exception being UO, but I never played that so can't comment on it.
I did quite a number of the quests and didn't find them particularly engaging. I think I did like were the epic quest. I never actually finished that but I like the idea of a single over-arching quest or purpose. Thats why I play Istaria, as boring as that game is at times, it feels like there is a purpose to why I'm doing it.
I choose to group at times, qutie a lot actually, and solo at time. Actually one of my favorite activities were soloing virtually every durn giant in FM, before they nerfed bard kites to 10 or so. Man I loved doing that. And in response to the sig, often I enjoyed getting a good group and camping a spot, but when I felt it was becoming too grindy I would leave to do other things. I just feel that in games today I have more of those other things to do.
If you want a new game that goes against this current trend, you are going to somehow have to convince the developers that what you has a good chance of making them some money. It won't be done otherwise, these games are far far too expensive to make and seem to be too risky to do otherwise.
Part of my issue is: I just get bored withe these games. All of them. I've never made it to end game in any computer based game I've ever played in my life. My highest in EQ was 55 bard (did play monk and druid as well but not as high). My highest ever in WoW is 64 druid, Istaria was 70/74 Dragon. I've never finished dragon age, mass effect, any of the FF games. After so many hours/days/weeks/months playing you have done virtually all the activities there are.
I too would like a game where there are even more options for playstyles. Don't say games like Ryzom becuase in truth that game is just magic fight, melee fight and dig in the dirt for months and months on end. Every fighting style is exactly the same as every other one, same with magic, and crafting.
The most successfull games have the most varied of tasks because people do get bored. Grind when I want, group when I want, craft when I want, pvp when I want, follow linear storylines when I want, customize my character and my look when I want. Right now WoW lets me do many of these options, more than the other games I've played, but not all.. not yet. Sometimes I'm great for grouping and am gun ho and will group for hours; other times I'm tired, want to relax and just follow an enjoyable storyboard prescripted event. The game that lets me choose how I game will get my money and/or I will just have to play several games at once.
Venge Sunsoar
I never said lots of subs = perfect game (where did you get that idea?).
The OP chose to make a grand generalization about all MMO players (as if he knew millions of people).
LOTS of people think it's a good game. That's all.
And of course lots of subs doesn't speak to the quality of a game. Never said it did. It only speaks to what THOSE people think of the game to refute the OP's main point.
It also has a low population. It gets damn rough to get anything done when you have to wait in line behind 30 other people for a mob that pops once an hour. There's ways to speed it up, but if you're trying to get people to stay with the least amount of updates as possible, you'll make items harder to get. Now if items are irrelevent, then you have to have different bait on that hook. In EQ atleast low end dungeons like Solsec A tended to be empty, while at the high end, people waited in line to get stuff. That, atleast was my experience from 7 years ago.
The queue times are there to simulate the travel to and from the BG/dungeon.
McDonalds may not be better tasting. But it does mean for those millions of people that due to it's price, convenience and taste it isthe better option for those people at the time they decide to go.
Subs are proof that to those people playing that the game is worth their money. It is also proof to developrs just what kind of game people are willing to pay for, and therefore what kind of games they should be targeting- either that style or to look for an as yet untapped market.
here we go
1 as a wow fanboi let me say this wow has the largest mmo community thus making it a wide variety of people to group with talk to and enjoy for social anxed individuals like myself. i hate people in general but enjoy online community because if i dont like you i can ignore you. ive known alot of people who have come and gone on wow its a game people leave people come back .
personally i like the grouping status of wow it eliminates the issue of waiting for guilidies to log on in order to do instances all mmo are a grind any way you look at it you grind to level you grind for gear and before you know it they release an expansion and your grind begins again its the mmo worlds been that way since the beginning . real life is a grind you grind to reach adulthood you grind to get better gear you grind to get more money you rest to build up rest xp and you start the grind all over again .
wow is not the be all end all of mmo's but it is the social giant at the moment until the next best thing comes out and beats it in my eyes im hoping it will be the old republic but we will see .
dont judge those of us that support wow and just because we enjoy it doesnt mean its everyone elses bag of goodies but because we enjoy it doesnt mean you can call us fanbois because if thats the case then we can call you a fanboi of flaming because you seem to enjoy doing that
I think you are the one that missed the point dude. He just explained why you're constant retreat to wow's sub count is useless as a means of proving how good your game is.
Don't get me wrong, although WoW disgusts me now, I KNOW it's a very very very VERY well put together game... I mean, how can it not be after 7 years of post development and pulling in such huge profits.
All we're saying is that at this point it might be time for wow-defenders to take a step back and look at those "subs" and realize how many of those players are just bored, or stuck wishing for something better but have no options because of all the other AAA fantasy games offering the same thing wow does, or because their friends play and they don't want to be the only 'square' in the circle of wow friends, or what about gold farmers/account hackers (assuming it's not Blizzard hacking everyone) - I'm not saying any of this because of my distaste for wow. I spent almost 5 years loving wow. In that time, however, I noticed a LARGE amount of the community is only there because they're just used to logging in and doing their regiment. a bunch of bored ass players that don't wanna leave their guilds behind really.
So you dont like the game, it is still just game, so why not simply find a game that you do like?
Apparently most gamers dont give a shit about what other MMO's could offer. It is not your task to enlighten them, mainly because it wont work anyway. Because most gamers dont even visit this website, let alone read some random gamer's drivel.
Try not to take these games too seriously and you might even find some enjoyment instead of the frustration that is very obvious in your post.
Oh, just so you know..I dont like WoW either, but going on a crusade about it is just ridiculous in my eyes.
Dude, this is what I was responding to in the OP:
<<Lets think. "What do i want in a MMO?"
Mostly ppl would answer:
"Free world, with dungeons and PVP and crafting. Unique gear and to travel around the world exploring.">>
If anywhere in this thread I said "lots of subs = good game" please point it out to me.
And why do WoW players need to 'take a step back' and analyze why people are playing?!? If someone is playing but having a bad time, THEN they need to take a step back.
I don't care why people are playing.
And one last time - I DID NOT INTEND TO USE SUB COUNT AS PROOF IT'S A GOOD GAME. I even stated that IN THE LAST PART OF THE VERY POST YOU REPLIED TO.
@Someforumguy
No one really gives much of a damn that you don't give a damn about his crusade either if you really wanna play that card. You might want to actually read some of the posts above yours to get the answer to why this topic continually comes up around these forums.
I never said that I dont give a damn. I only tried to explain that he is preaching to the choir.
No, WoW haters are VERY sad. I mean they come up with things like "most people think..." and "I want..." This is meaningless, its sad for you but all those other people are having fun in one way or another (why else would they pay sub).
You want a sandbox and be unique and jada jada jada but WoW does not cater to people like you it caters mainly to people who want to chill and have some easy and fun themepark. No one wants to grind something to get that very unique item after a hard day of work. It is not fun!
Now why would you guys hate WoW for this? Does EVERY fucking game has to be created for hardcore sandboxers or is that you are jeleous because the game you play suck and is dieing?
Oh, but yeah... everyone has to like the thing I like or else its sad... for them.
I dont believe that people hates wow players,like they dont hate people who plays legos or dolls or plays war with toys or plays football ,whatever,but when those wow players ,lego players ,football whatever players are calling their game Role Playing Game,well i can only blame them,why in the heck they wanna call that Role Playing is still a mystery.
Generation P
I dont think that RP definitions accepted on mmorpg.com should be undenyable truth. To me RPing is playing my warrior (in wow or in lotro or whatever) and every game where I can lvl up, slay monsters and buy armour is RP game to me because I play a role of a warior in it. So why would you flame the game or the players? Because their definition dont match yours? Why even care how they call the game THEY play? If you dont play it then why man, wth?
I still think that in a nutshell it is good old "you must like what I like".
I disagree with a substantial portion of your post.
First, pvp. My biggest problem with WoW's pvp is that they turned it into a minigame. It simply does not matter in any shape or fashion except as a vehicle to get more shinies. Play Lineage2, Aion, Eve Online. PvP in these games matter. Winning is awesome, losing is painful, and there's real substance there. WoW lost its pvp focus when they did the original pvp overhaul. Granted, having to put in 60 hours a week to get the top titles was ludicrous, but there were better ways to fix it than to make pvp worthless.
The same is true for dungeons. I admit, being able to find a dungeon group in seconds is simply amazing. However, I'm not sure it was at the cost of the community and player accountability. The way it works now, you log in, you queue, you enter the dungeon, no one says anything, half the people act like they're soloing, and you still manage to faceroll your way through the dungeon in about 15 minutes. Like pvp, the dungeons are now minigames, instead of an experience.
It's not just what you're doing that makes the game fun - it's how you do it. Sure, shinies are nice. But watching my group go nuts celebrating after we finally took down Lord Valthalak was better.
Is that so?because for your own good i really hope that you dont like what I like.
That "you must like what i like" attitude from wow forums just dont work in Role Playing Games.
it was that easy to prove.
Generation P
Thats ok. And actually I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Finally taking down a boss that that was extremely challenging is definatey very fun.
But for the rest we just look for and like different things. I don't particularly like or dislike pvp. I just want to engage it on my terms when I want, and ignore when I don't want it. So the meaningfullness of pvp, means absolutely nothing to me. I find more enjoyment in the battlegrounds than other forms of pvp. I actually am on Emerald Dream, an rppvp server. However the number of times I've been senselessly ganked versus engaging in fun pvp out in the world is vastly skewed towards the mindless ganking.
Oki i see there are different kinds of players and what they like. . . I think WOW has something to offer in BG and Arenas, but thats it.
I just dont get it why ppl are so interessted in that game... My friends aswell play it. Actually I got 4 friends just resubed. Im frustrated because i dont see the idea as many others does it.
For me WOW is crap if you want an adventure and something cool to look back to. Its more like an normal game actually. I wont compare WOW to a MMO because the idea with MMO's is a world with interaction from players. . . Beside arena ang bg in wow, its just a single player preparation.
Im just frustrated. I dont like the idea behind the game. I wanna tell ppl that. Thats the only reason for this thread.
Maybe for some wow seems like an adventure, but as long as cross servers and multi same dungeons is there i dont see it. There are no reason to kill another player, there are no reason to go somewhere in the WHOLE world of Warcraft. ONLY for the grind.
Well you actually havent proved anything... And I have no idea how did wow forums get into this discussion.
But ok, Im not in for pointless flamewars. The thing I want to say is that *I wish* people would drop that "its not sandbox its gay", "wow full of retards, if u play wow u r one" and "RP is what I say RP is cause i play since <insert old, grindy mmo>"
People have to be more tolerant to different things. Why hate when it *doesnt impact you in anyway*... I mean its sometimes goes over the top and reminds me KKK and black people (I know its hard to compare these things and I'm sorry if I insulted anyone but still) its different, its not what we want so lets hang it HURR DURRR. And you can really see a lot of this in these forums. And its funny how these people still try to pose very intelligent gamers. People need to be more tolerant.
Although I am currently playing WOW, most people know I have been a harsh critic of the game on many occasions. (some people actually think I hate theme park style games)
But here's a quick story. Last night I reconnected with an old friend who left WOW many years ago and recently returned to it like I did. While my return has been a bit melancoly, his has been a terrific success and he said he's having more fun now than ever before.
While I'm basically just killing time until RIFT/GW2/SWTOR/TERRA/Earthrise releasew, he, his brother and their friends are genuinely having a great time trying to get through their first heroic together.
When I told him my plans to move on to RIFT most likely in the near future, he dismissed the suggestion and said he was sticking with WOW for a long time to come.
Moral of story. While WOW does not deliver the gaming experience that I am looking for, it does a great job of delivering a ton of fun for my friend and millions of others just like him.
Too often we look at our own gaming preferences and deem them as the "correct" way for MMORPG's to be developed when in fact we're actually just a small niche in a sea of gamers.
Fact is, they really don't need my 15 dollars a month, since they can get my friends money with the designs they've chosen to pursue.
WOW may not be the perfect game for me, but there's no denying its a great game in its own right and hits it target market pretty much dead on.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
honestly, the only thing keeping Darkfall from being a great game is the lack of roaming monsters and wildlife in the wilderness. Otherwise, it is possibly one of the best MMO's out there right now.
Sorry to some of you noobs out here that can't get past the newbie area, but once you find a group of people to hang with and get your skills up and some gear ( GEAR IS NECESSARY ) it is a whole other world.
WoW - based on SWG themeparks and EQ gameplay, beautifully done and it has a loyal customerbase, no reason to bash those people, they prob wouldn't play MMO if it weren't for WoW. And while it's sad that most people want the easy brainless game , it boosts the MMO market, allowing for stuff like Darkfall to be created.
PLAY WURM ONLINE!! www.wurmonline.com
So you say you DONT grind in WOW? Let me refresh how you grind from day 1 to the day you unsub. They add new gear each 6 month and OMG you obtain it the same way at last time. Are you kidding me?
I compare WOW to cigarettes. Its actually a nice comparison. Its evil but you can stop because of the nicotine.
Blizzard hired ppl to figure out the nicotine and implemented it in the gameplay.
Its bad to smoke, but ppl cant stop.
Its bad to play sucky games, but ppl cant stop.
Why you think some ppl died from playing wow? They forgot to eat. OMG.
Someones child died because they forgot her, because of the nicotine.
Some is trying to sue Blizzard for ruin there life.
This is nicotine.