Blizzard obviously doesn't copy/paste from other games. They take ideas that worked and try build somewhat on them. If Blizzard had just copied everything to make WoW, it would not be as popular as it is today. If you really think Blizzard just copies things outright, please explain how they have made it to where they are today. Chance? Timing? Luck maybe?
Blizzard didn't cause stagnation, that was the developers and investors from other companies who were too lazy to try come up with ideas on their own. Too many of them wanted a piece of the WoW pie, and failed at obtaining it.
Blizzard obviously doesn't copy/paste from other games. They take ideas that worked and try build somewhat on them. If Blizzard had just copied everything to make WoW, it would not be as popular as it is today. If you really think Blizzard just copies things outright, please explain how they have made it to where they are today. Chance? Timing? Luck maybe?
Blizzard didn't cause stagnation, that was the developers and investors from other companies who were too lazy to try come up with ideas on their own. Too many of them wanted a piece of the WoW pie, and failed at obtaining it.
Actually chance, timing and luck did play a major role in Blizzard's success with WoW.
Blizzard obviously doesn't copy/paste from other games. They take ideas that worked and try build somewhat on them. If Blizzard had just copied everything to make WoW, it would not be as popular as it is today. If you really think Blizzard just copies things outright, please explain how they have made it to where they are today. Chance? Timing? Luck maybe?
Blizzard didn't cause stagnation, that was the developers and investors from other companies who were too lazy to try come up with ideas on their own. Too many of them wanted a piece of the WoW pie, and failed at obtaining it.
Actually chance, timing and luck did play a major role in Blizzard's success with WoW.
Blizzard obviously doesn't copy/paste from other games. They take ideas that worked and try build somewhat on them. If Blizzard had just copied everything to make WoW, it would not be as popular as it is today. If you really think Blizzard just copies things outright, please explain how they have made it to where they are today. Chance? Timing? Luck maybe?
Blizzard didn't cause stagnation, that was the developers and investors from other companies who were too lazy to try come up with ideas on their own. Too many of them wanted a piece of the WoW pie, and failed at obtaining it.
Actually chance, timing and luck did play a major role in Blizzard's success with WoW.
Ok. Care to explain?
I'll do my best.
Blizzard already had a very large fanbase with their Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo games.
The MMO genre was a niche genre before WoW. Most people had never even heard of an MMO. Blizzard also created a game that was easy to get into and could be run on a wide range of computers.
There was a massive influx of people that WoW brought into the genre.
Blizzard obviously doesn't copy/paste from other games. They take ideas that worked and try build somewhat on them. If Blizzard had just copied everything to make WoW, it would not be as popular as it is today. If you really think Blizzard just copies things outright, please explain how they have made it to where they are today. Chance? Timing? Luck maybe?
Blizzard didn't cause stagnation, that was the developers and investors from other companies who were too lazy to try come up with ideas on their own. Too many of them wanted a piece of the WoW pie, and failed at obtaining it.
Actually chance, timing and luck did play a major role in Blizzard's success with WoW.
Ok. Care to explain?
I'll do my best.
Blizzard already had a very large fanbase with their Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo games.
The MMO genre was a niche genre before WoW. Most people had never even heard of an MMO. Blizzard also created a game that was easy to get into and could be run on a wide range of computers.
There was a massive influx of people that WoW brought into the genre.
None of that has to do with chance or luck though. Timing yes of course. It wasn't chance or luck that made Warcaft, Starcraft and Diablo sucessful franchises. That is all I am saying. Blizzard makes solid, enjoyable games, they have for quite a long time. Blaming them for causing stagnation in the video game industry is a little silly. It's just greed and incompetence that causes stagnation
Blizzard obviously doesn't copy/paste from other games. They take ideas that worked and try build somewhat on them. If Blizzard had just copied everything to make WoW, it would not be as popular as it is today. If you really think Blizzard just copies things outright, please explain how they have made it to where they are today. Chance? Timing? Luck maybe?
Blizzard didn't cause stagnation, that was the developers and investors from other companies who were too lazy to try come up with ideas on their own. Too many of them wanted a piece of the WoW pie, and failed at obtaining it.
Actually chance, timing and luck did play a major role in Blizzard's success with WoW.
Ok. Care to explain?
I'll do my best.
Blizzard already had a very large fanbase with their Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo games.
The MMO genre was a niche genre before WoW. Most people had never even heard of an MMO. Blizzard also created a game that was easy to get into and could be run on a wide range of computers.
There was a massive influx of people that WoW brought into the genre.
None of that has to do with chance or luck though. Timing yes of course. It wasn't chance or luck that made Warcaft, Starcraft and Diablo sucessful franchises. That is all I am saying. Blizzard makes solid, enjoyable games, they have for quite a long time. Blaming them for causing stagnation in the video game industry is a little silly. It's just greed and incompetence that causes stagnation
WoW was the cause of that greed and incompetence though. A lot of devs tried to copy WoW because they knew what was successful without knowing why.
Blizzard obviously doesn't copy/paste from other games. They take ideas that worked and try build somewhat on them. If Blizzard had just copied everything to make WoW, it would not be as popular as it is today. If you really think Blizzard just copies things outright, please explain how they have made it to where they are today. Chance? Timing? Luck maybe?
Blizzard didn't cause stagnation, that was the developers and investors from other companies who were too lazy to try come up with ideas on their own. Too many of them wanted a piece of the WoW pie, and failed at obtaining it.
Actually chance, timing and luck did play a major role in Blizzard's success with WoW.
Ok. Care to explain?
I'll do my best.
Blizzard already had a very large fanbase with their Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo games.
The MMO genre was a niche genre before WoW. Most people had never even heard of an MMO. Blizzard also created a game that was easy to get into and could be run on a wide range of computers.
There was a massive influx of people that WoW brought into the genre.
None of that has to do with chance or luck though. Timing yes of course. It wasn't chance or luck that made Warcaft, Starcraft and Diablo sucessful franchises. That is all I am saying. Blizzard makes solid, enjoyable games, they have for quite a long time. Blaming them for causing stagnation in the video game industry is a little silly. It's just greed and incompetence that causes stagnation
WoW was the cause of that greed and incompetence though. A lot of devs tried to copy WoW because they knew what was successful without knowing why.
You are just looking at it differently I suppose. I do not blame WoW or Blizzard for any of the piss poor games that came out that tried to copy them. Just like I don't blame McDonalds for making people fat. It was still the develpers/investors choice in the end to be lazy and try to steal people from the WoW crowd, by making something too similar to what people were already playing. WoW really should have pushed people to come up with new ideas, to try to break the mould, and it may be finally doing that (swtor, gw2). You cannot blame a company for making a good game.
Blizzard obviously doesn't copy/paste from other games. They take ideas that worked and try build somewhat on them. If Blizzard had just copied everything to make WoW, it would not be as popular as it is today. If you really think Blizzard just copies things outright, please explain how they have made it to where they are today. Chance? Timing? Luck maybe?
Blizzard didn't cause stagnation, that was the developers and investors from other companies who were too lazy to try come up with ideas on their own. Too many of them wanted a piece of the WoW pie, and failed at obtaining it.
Actually chance, timing and luck did play a major role in Blizzard's success with WoW.
Ok. Care to explain?
I'll do my best.
Blizzard already had a very large fanbase with their Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo games.
The MMO genre was a niche genre before WoW. Most people had never even heard of an MMO. Blizzard also created a game that was easy to get into and could be run on a wide range of computers.
There was a massive influx of people that WoW brought into the genre.
None of that has to do with chance or luck though. Timing yes of course. It wasn't chance or luck that made Warcaft, Starcraft and Diablo sucessful franchises. That is all I am saying. Blizzard makes solid, enjoyable games, they have for quite a long time. Blaming them for causing stagnation in the video game industry is a little silly. It's just greed and incompetence that causes stagnation
WoW was the cause of that greed and incompetence though. A lot of devs tried to copy WoW because they knew what was successful without knowing why.
Wow was not the cause of greed and incompetence. Those companies were already greedy and incompetent. The good ones still saw success and still do. Like CCP for example. Of coarse they had a virtual world that kept them honest. SOE had one too but chose to break the rules due to their own greed and incompetence.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
In my opinion, the greatest threat to innovation is corporate greed. Look at all of the highly promising titles that have been torn out of developers wombs and thrust into the harsh light of day before they were fully formed. Game developers WANT to make fun, innovative games. They are not making games cause they couldn't land a job writing database code or working on spreadsheets full time. They are making games because they are gamers and love the hobby. Pick virtually any game released in the last 2 years and I can pinpoint the stink of corporate medelling that hurt it moreso than just poor design or a lack of innovation.
Warhammer was an extreme example of this and I whole heartedly agree. It had such great potential but it needed more time and more funding. It had some really great and innovative ideas atleast for me, its stupid to say anything is a "clone" in a negative context. In all genres in all things we use other people's success and build upon them, Blizzard didn't create mmo's but we are all limited to the expierences we have.
The community for MMO's is getting larger and larger and game philosophy that was commonplace 10 years ago is changing, its time to accept that. It doesn't mean we will never play another game we don't ever fully enjoy again, we just have to adapt or commune our opinions together.
IMO I agree with most things said in this thread however my opinion is more like this...
MMO's before the WoW franchise were largely unknown and unthreaded due to the "risk" involved in making something that has to run for years on end with continued content and support whilst being innovative and different from the rest in terms of mechanics etc.
WoW Blew this wide open due to it's major success it made and giving of a certain feel where people could say okay this is a fairly "risk-free" sucessfull formula let's run with this.. to be honest I believe it's this train of thought which Blizz might have indirectly caused that began to stagnate the industry.
Why?
Because Companies and especially regarding big-time corporations are all about the risk-reward factor.
They won't risk anything or pretty much anything for that matter as long as what works keeps working and keeps lining their pockets.
So...uh yeah...i guess that WAS the bomb trigger o.O hehe oops :$
I think people focus so much on companies emulating wow that they miss just how many other games are trying to innovate.
Chronicles of Spellborn, Tabula Rasa, All Points Bulletin, FF14, Global Agenda, AoC, Seed, Vanguard, MetaPlace, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Pirates of the Caribean, Gods&Heroes, HellgateLondon, Huxley, Lego Universe, FusionFall, Dungeons&Dragons online, Dark&Light, DungeonRunners, Xyson, minecraft and so on.
On top of that there is nothing wrong with aiming for a niche game in a market this size. If a successful mmo had 200k users pre-wow, then there is nothing wrong with aiming for that now. Eve is about as niche as a game could be: full loot pvp, space, sandbox, harsh death everything painful, spreadsheets of doom, but it has almost 400k users.
There is only 1 reason more games cannot find that level of success in the current market and that has to do with the developers.
Prior to wow, companies were emulating EQ (which is exactly what blizzard did) and that didn't seem to be a problem. It wasn't until blizzard showed developers just how many customers they were missing out on by releasing half finished games and penalizing players for doing anything in game just to stretch out the subscription time.
The problem is that developers missed what made wow such a success. Instead of emulating how blizzard made wow, they focused on wow and continue to release half finshed buggy poorly designed games. It really isn't a surprise that so few games have found success and blizzard/wow can't be held responsible for that.
At some point developers need to be held accountable for their own actions and not have blame shifted to the few companies that took the time and attention to deliver a solid product to its customers.
Blizzard obviously doesn't copy/paste from other games. They take ideas that worked and try build somewhat on them. If Blizzard had just copied everything to make WoW, it would not be as popular as it is today. If you really think Blizzard just copies things outright, please explain how they have made it to where they are today. Chance? Timing? Luck maybe?
Blizzard didn't cause stagnation, that was the developers and investors from other companies who were too lazy to try come up with ideas on their own. Too many of them wanted a piece of the WoW pie, and failed at obtaining it.
Actually chance, timing and luck did play a major role in Blizzard's success with WoW.
Ok. Care to explain?
I'll do my best.
Blizzard already had a very large fanbase with their Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo games.
The MMO genre was a niche genre before WoW. Most people had never even heard of an MMO. Blizzard also created a game that was easy to get into and could be run on a wide range of computers.
There was a massive influx of people that WoW brought into the genre.
None of that has to do with chance or luck though. Timing yes of course. It wasn't chance or luck that made Warcaft, Starcraft and Diablo sucessful franchises. That is all I am saying. Blizzard makes solid, enjoyable games, they have for quite a long time. Blaming them for causing stagnation in the video game industry is a little silly. It's just greed and incompetence that causes stagnation
Had WoW been made with the exact same developers, with the exact same mechanics, but under a different developer and IP, it wouldn't be the success it is today.
Marketing and brand fanaticism is a large reason why WoW is as popular as it is. All of the B.net players jumped on board WoW, not even knowing an an MMO was. Heck before WoW the typical response to an MMO from a non MMO-gamer was, "wait, you have to buy the game AND pay $15 every month?!" A lot of the people who thought this had no problem playing WoW, because of Blizzard.
Blizzard is not directly at fault, but they are still the cause of the stagnation of the MMO market. By bringing in masses of 'low quality' gamers they've dumbed down the market into instant gratification. That's what Blizzard does very well at, instant gratification gameplay. WoW has such a huge market share that other publishers want to copy it, so developers are almost forced to try to copy WoW if they want to get any funding. This is what's stagnating the market, but hopefully it won't last as more people start to realize how shallow WoW really is.
Had WoW been made with the exact same developers, with the exact same mechanics, but under a different developer and IP, it wouldn't be the success it is today.
Marketing and brand fanaticism is a large reason why WoW is as popular as it is. All of the B.net players jumped on board WoW, not even knowing an an MMO was. Heck before WoW the typical response to an MMO from a non MMO-gamer was, "wait, you have to buy the game AND pay $15 every month?!" A lot of the people who thought this had no problem playing WoW, because of Blizzard.
Blizzard is not directly at fault, but they are still the cause of the stagnation of the MMO market. By bringing in masses of 'low quality' gamers they've dumbed down the market into instant gratification. That's what Blizzard does very well at, instant gratification gameplay. WoW has such a huge market share that other publishers want to copy it, so developers are almost forced to try to copy WoW if they want to get any funding. This is what's stagnating the market, but hopefully it won't last as more people start to realize how shallow WoW really is.
So how did games with the marketing of these behemoths not find the same level of success as wow? They certainly have the marketing knowhow and budget.
Electronic Arts
Sony
Warner Brothers
Microsoft
Why didn't any of the following massive IPs find the same level of success with thier MMOS? Again huge followings to draw on and most larger than what blizzard had.
The Sim
Star Wars
Star Trek
Warhammer
The Martix
Lord of the Rings
Dungeons and Dragons
Now consider that some games have both massive IP and huge publisher behind it. G
Perhaps there is more to the success of wow that grabbing a bunch of low quality players. Maybe the majority of computer games just were not willing to put up with shitty incomplete boring mmos? Maybe they actually had higher standards. Just to play devils advocate to your theory.
The secret to WoW's success was Warcraft 3. They carried a huge player following, and this is the ONLY reason that this game became such a huge success.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
The secret to WoW's success was Warcraft 3. They carried a huge player following, and this is the ONLY reason that this game became such a huge success.
I would argue that the game is more akin to Diablo 2, which was arguably much more popular than Warcraft 3. There is not, or never really was, much Warcraft going on in WoW, in my experience.
As far as the Topic goes, I don't think Blizzard really innovated much to begin with. They took some popular ideas and built upon them, sometiems for the better, sometimes not. Innovation has not really been Blizzards forte over the years, in my opinion. It's been more about polish and timing than anything else. I also do not belive blizzards success has caused the market to stagnate. The fact that nothing better (in my personal opinion) has come out since WoW is probably why it's stagnate.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
At one time I used to have alot of respect for Blizzard because they worked hard to get where they are today but since WoW's success they have become extremely spoiled and lazy. Their success is their own worst enemy. So yeah they stagnated innovation alot because in their minds they believe big numbers means progress. The McDonalds statements have never been more true today.
Had WoW been made with the exact same developers, with the exact same mechanics, but under a different developer and IP, it wouldn't be the success it is today.
Marketing and brand fanaticism is a large reason why WoW is as popular as it is. All of the B.net players jumped on board WoW, not even knowing an an MMO was. Heck before WoW the typical response to an MMO from a non MMO-gamer was, "wait, you have to buy the game AND pay $15 every month?!" A lot of the people who thought this had no problem playing WoW, because of Blizzard.
Blizzard is not directly at fault, but they are still the cause of the stagnation of the MMO market. By bringing in masses of 'low quality' gamers they've dumbed down the market into instant gratification. That's what Blizzard does very well at, instant gratification gameplay. WoW has such a huge market share that other publishers want to copy it, so developers are almost forced to try to copy WoW if they want to get any funding. This is what's stagnating the market, but hopefully it won't last as more people start to realize how shallow WoW really is.
So how did games with the marketing of these behemoths not find the same level of success as wow? They certainly have the marketing knowhow and budget.
Electronic Arts
Sony
Warner Brothers
Microsoft
Why didn't any of the following massive IPs find the same level of success with thier MMOS? Again huge followings to draw on and most larger than what blizzard had.
The Sim
Star Wars
Star Trek
Warhammer
The Martix
Lord of the Rings
Dungeons and Dragons
Now consider that some games have both massive IP and huge publisher behind it. G
Perhaps there is more to the success of wow that grabbing a bunch of low quality players. Maybe the majority of computer games just were not willing to put up with shitty incomplete boring mmos? Maybe they actually had higher standards. Just to play devils advocate to your theory.
You're missing the key ingrediant. For all of those other big budget developers with big name IPs... none of the MMOs made by those developers with those IPs had a large online gamer following backing the developer and/or the IP(s).
Blizzard had millions of B.net gamers who played a myriad of Blizzard games online, ranging from Diablo, to Starcraft, to Warcraft. It's this large population that largely kick-started WoW's success. It wasn't much of a nudge to get them from playing those games, to playing WoW. Without this core fanbase, WoW wouldn't have had the catalyst that pushed WoW into the spotlight, and it would have been nowhere near as successful.
Blizzard didn't stagnate innovation. The investors in the mmos that came after WoW cause the stagnation when they expected WoW-like profits from whatever mmo they were investing in.
Had WoW been made with the exact same developers, with the exact same mechanics, but under a different developer and IP, it wouldn't be the success it is today.
Marketing and brand fanaticism is a large reason why WoW is as popular as it is. All of the B.net players jumped on board WoW, not even knowing an an MMO was. Heck before WoW the typical response to an MMO from a non MMO-gamer was, "wait, you have to buy the game AND pay $15 every month?!" A lot of the people who thought this had no problem playing WoW, because of Blizzard.
Blizzard is not directly at fault, but they are still the cause of the stagnation of the MMO market. By bringing in masses of 'low quality' gamers they've dumbed down the market into instant gratification. That's what Blizzard does very well at, instant gratification gameplay. WoW has such a huge market share that other publishers want to copy it, so developers are almost forced to try to copy WoW if they want to get any funding. This is what's stagnating the market, but hopefully it won't last as more people start to realize how shallow WoW really is.
So how did games with the marketing of these behemoths not find the same level of success as wow? They certainly have the marketing knowhow and budget.
Electronic Arts
Sony
Warner Brothers
Microsoft
Why didn't any of the following massive IPs find the same level of success with thier MMOS? Again huge followings to draw on and most larger than what blizzard had.
The Sim
Star Wars
Star Trek
Warhammer
The Martix
Lord of the Rings
Dungeons and Dragons
Now consider that some games have both massive IP and huge publisher behind it. G
Perhaps there is more to the success of wow that grabbing a bunch of low quality players. Maybe the majority of computer games just were not willing to put up with shitty incomplete boring mmos? Maybe they actually had higher standards. Just to play devils advocate to your theory.
You're missing the key ingrediant. For all of those other big budget developers with big name IPs... none of the MMOs made by those developers with those IPs had a large online gamer following backing the developer and/or the IP(s).
Blizzard had millions of B.net gamers who played a myriad of Blizzard games online, ranging from Diablo, to Starcraft, to Warcraft. It's this large population that largely kick-started WoW's success. It wasn't much of a nudge to get them from playing those games, to playing WoW. Without this core fanbase, WoW wouldn't have had the catalyst that pushed WoW into the spotlight, and it would have been nowhere near as successful.
Yes, but anyone who was a gamer in the 1990's knew about these games because they were good games. WoW was a good game on it's own merits. If it was not a good game, it would not matter how good Blizzards other games were because it would have flopped. Brand recognition is nothing compared to word of mouth beyond initial release.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
The points about b.net and Warcraft III contributing to WoWs success are clearly valid.
But...what sealed the deal (in my opinion anyway) was the "perfect storm" of Blizzard holding the no. 1 spot in online gaming as internet availability spread and the home pc became standard for more and more people (hardware prices decreasing etc.). Add clever marketing into the pot and you have a perfect confluence of circumstances that no other game will likely ever be able to match.
Trouble is, investors and money-men aren't aware of the perfect storm that led to Blizzard's massive success (here it's important not to forget about the polish and smoothness one feels playing WoW as well) and they look at the behemoth and tihnk it's some magic formula that can be carbon-copied for guaranteed riches.
The carbon copies mostly don't match WoW in terms of an already successful IP that was already available for online play in some form (WCIII), they don't have the magical once-in-a-lifetime timing of their release, and they rarely (if ever) have that wonderfully smooth responsive gaming experience that WoW offers.
I had my time with WoW and that time is over, I have no ill-will towards Blizzard. If imitation truly is the sincerest form of flattery, Blizzard have a lot of admirers (even if they're only admiring earnings reports). Whether a company prizes innovation over emulation is their own decision. Few gamers will give up a long history with a game they enjoy for a 15th sheet carbon copy (or to be more modern about it, a low dpi scan) of the game they already play.
Add to the above the players who are increasingly demanding familiarity (only then to turn around and say the whole thing is overly familiar, or constantly carp about how WoW did x, y, and z better) and as a developer these days you're damned if you innovate and damned if you don't.
Don't blame Blizzard. Blame every clone and copy out there. Every company wants to BE Blizzard, but not one of them has done what Blizzard did. Blizzard took all the good from several different games and made it better. They took the things players didn't like and either improved it or removed it.
Just because no other companies have the ability to see the market like Blizzard did, doesn't make Blizzard bad. In fact, be pleased Blizzard came about. They've set the standard. It can be beaten and it can be improved upon...but companies continue failing because all they see are $$$!!!
I didn't read the whole thread, just the OP, but WoW did cause quite a number of MMORPG's to change from what they were or intended to be: from SWG that changed radically with the NGE, to a Middle Earth Online that became very WoW-like when it turned into LotrO, to WAR and even new MMORPG's like Rift and SWTOR thank a lot of similarities to WoW.
So yes, innovation has been lower than it could be the last few years. But there are also more MMORPG's than there might have been without WoW. And as stated in the OP, 2011 might become the year that the MMO business finally started to climb out of the valley of stagnancy of the past years.
There's a GW2, a TSW, MMOFPS like Firefall and Planetside Next, indie sandbox with a lot of potential Xsyon, AAA sandbox title ArcheAge, action oriented combat and politics in TERA, and even MMORPG's that are closest to WoW themepark mechanics like Rift and SWTOR bring their own innovations cq improvements like the dynamic rifts, cinematic questing with branching storylines and a different form of crafting.
To me the MMO future is looking brighter than it used to be when it comes to innovation.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Had WoW been made with the exact same developers, with the exact same mechanics, but under a different developer and IP, it wouldn't be the success it is today.
Marketing and brand fanaticism is a large reason why WoW is as popular as it is. All of the B.net players jumped on board WoW, not even knowing an an MMO was. Heck before WoW the typical response to an MMO from a non MMO-gamer was, "wait, you have to buy the game AND pay $15 every month?!" A lot of the people who thought this had no problem playing WoW, because of Blizzard.
Blizzard is not directly at fault, but they are still the cause of the stagnation of the MMO market. By bringing in masses of 'low quality' gamers they've dumbed down the market into instant gratification. That's what Blizzard does very well at, instant gratification gameplay. WoW has such a huge market share that other publishers want to copy it, so developers are almost forced to try to copy WoW if they want to get any funding. This is what's stagnating the market, but hopefully it won't last as more people start to realize how shallow WoW really is.
So how did games with the marketing of these behemoths not find the same level of success as wow? They certainly have the marketing knowhow and budget.
Electronic Arts
Sony
Warner Brothers
Microsoft
Why didn't any of the following massive IPs find the same level of success with thier MMOS? Again huge followings to draw on and most larger than what blizzard had.
The Sim
Star Wars
Star Trek
Warhammer
The Martix
Lord of the Rings
Dungeons and Dragons
Now consider that some games have both massive IP and huge publisher behind it. G
Perhaps there is more to the success of wow that grabbing a bunch of low quality players. Maybe the majority of computer games just were not willing to put up with shitty incomplete boring mmos? Maybe they actually had higher standards. Just to play devils advocate to your theory.
You're missing the key ingrediant. For all of those other big budget developers with big name IPs... none of the MMOs made by those developers with those IPs had a large online gamer following backing the developer and/or the IP(s).
Blizzard had millions of B.net gamers who played a myriad of Blizzard games online, ranging from Diablo, to Starcraft, to Warcraft. It's this large population that largely kick-started WoW's success. It wasn't much of a nudge to get them from playing those games, to playing WoW. Without this core fanbase, WoW wouldn't have had the catalyst that pushed WoW into the spotlight, and it would have been nowhere near as successful.
Yes, but anyone who was a gamer in the 1990's knew about these games because they were good games. WoW was a good game on it's own merits. If it was not a good game, it would not matter how good Blizzards other games were because it would have flopped. Brand recognition is nothing compared to word of mouth beyond initial release.
If WoW was made exactly the same as it is now, but by a developer other than Blizzard and using a different IP, it would be nowhere near as successful as it is now.
I'm not debating whether WoW is a good game or not. What I am saying is that , if Blizzard did not have rabidly loyal consumer following it would not have been able to leverage itself into a cultural phenominon through agressive marketing both by Blizzard and virally.
WoW is extremely successful because of the right marketing circumstances, not because it's an amazing or unique game.
I've started to look at MMO's the same way I look at movies.
Movies cost, millions of millions of dollars (minus those rare gems) and all the producers and investors who are fronting the money for the movies want to make sure they turn a profit of some sort. As such 90% of the time they will try to stick to established formulas that 'work'.
One thing I noticed after seeing Avatar, was that every fricken third movie had some sort of 3D jazz in it. For some reason 3D is 'in' now.
Cross over to Blizzard, they made WoW which essentially set the benchmark of what constitutes a 'good' mmorpg and they made it so well infact that any company looking to compete in the market will have to spend millions of dollars in order to create a game of a similar quality. Now the investors behind the game, fronting the money will look at established norms within the MMO industry and see that, "X game failed this way, Y game didn't do this right, Look at WoW though, they have it right, they are making money make it that way or I won't give you money."
Then suddenly, much like all the 3D movies we have around now. We have WoW clones.
It's going to take several (or one) company willing to risk millions of dollars on a risky concept in order to make the next step.
Yes, but anyone who was a gamer in the 1990's knew about these games because they were good games. WoW was a good game on it's own merits. If it was not a good game, it would not matter how good Blizzards other games were because it would have flopped. Brand recognition is nothing compared to word of mouth beyond initial release.
If WoW was made exactly the same as it is now, but by a developer other than Blizzard and using a different IP, it would be nowhere near as successful as it is now.
I'm not debating whether WoW is a good game or not. What I am saying is that , if Blizzard did not have rabidly loyal consumer following it would not have been able to leverage itself into a cultural phenominon through agressive marketing both by Blizzard and virally.
WoW is extremely successful because of the right marketing circumstances, not because it's an amazing or unique game.
If that was the case, then the population explosion in the mmo market would have cascaded to other mmos. People who "just found out about mmos" would explore other games and everyone would prosper as a result.
Yet the exact opposite happened. Almost every single mmo experienced massive decline and never recovered from it. Even EQ2 which released 2 weeks before wow lost almost half of its population to Wow in the first year.
Read the early reviews of wow to see just how different it was from the crop of mmos at the time and just how different it really was. It is the first game I remember people not only recommending to friends, but those friends enjoying it so much that they recommended it to their friends. The world of mouth was massive.
Compare that to Everquest for example. Fun game, but it just wasn't friendly to most people. Just for example, before EQ2/WoW released Everquest had over 2.5 MILLION people try it. LINK
I'm not sure how big battlenet was prior to WoW, but there were already millions and millions of people looking at mmos and not sticking around. The problem was (and still is) the developers and their games. The mentality of "release it now and fix it later" combined with the mentality that penalizing gameplay to extend the length of players subscription didn't exactly hit the sweet spot of gamers.
Comments
Blizzard obviously doesn't copy/paste from other games. They take ideas that worked and try build somewhat on them. If Blizzard had just copied everything to make WoW, it would not be as popular as it is today. If you really think Blizzard just copies things outright, please explain how they have made it to where they are today. Chance? Timing? Luck maybe?
Blizzard didn't cause stagnation, that was the developers and investors from other companies who were too lazy to try come up with ideas on their own. Too many of them wanted a piece of the WoW pie, and failed at obtaining it.
Actually chance, timing and luck did play a major role in Blizzard's success with WoW.
Ok. Care to explain?
I'll do my best.
Blizzard already had a very large fanbase with their Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo games.
The MMO genre was a niche genre before WoW. Most people had never even heard of an MMO. Blizzard also created a game that was easy to get into and could be run on a wide range of computers.
There was a massive influx of people that WoW brought into the genre.
None of that has to do with chance or luck though. Timing yes of course. It wasn't chance or luck that made Warcaft, Starcraft and Diablo sucessful franchises. That is all I am saying. Blizzard makes solid, enjoyable games, they have for quite a long time. Blaming them for causing stagnation in the video game industry is a little silly. It's just greed and incompetence that causes stagnation
WoW was the cause of that greed and incompetence though. A lot of devs tried to copy WoW because they knew what was successful without knowing why.
You are just looking at it differently I suppose. I do not blame WoW or Blizzard for any of the piss poor games that came out that tried to copy them. Just like I don't blame McDonalds for making people fat. It was still the develpers/investors choice in the end to be lazy and try to steal people from the WoW crowd, by making something too similar to what people were already playing. WoW really should have pushed people to come up with new ideas, to try to break the mould, and it may be finally doing that (swtor, gw2). You cannot blame a company for making a good game.
Wow was not the cause of greed and incompetence. Those companies were already greedy and incompetent. The good ones still saw success and still do. Like CCP for example. Of coarse they had a virtual world that kept them honest. SOE had one too but chose to break the rules due to their own greed and incompetence.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Warhammer was an extreme example of this and I whole heartedly agree. It had such great potential but it needed more time and more funding. It had some really great and innovative ideas atleast for me, its stupid to say anything is a "clone" in a negative context. In all genres in all things we use other people's success and build upon them, Blizzard didn't create mmo's but we are all limited to the expierences we have.
The community for MMO's is getting larger and larger and game philosophy that was commonplace 10 years ago is changing, its time to accept that. It doesn't mean we will never play another game we don't ever fully enjoy again, we just have to adapt or commune our opinions together.
IMO I agree with most things said in this thread however my opinion is more like this...
MMO's before the WoW franchise were largely unknown and unthreaded due to the "risk" involved in making something that has to run for years on end with continued content and support whilst being innovative and different from the rest in terms of mechanics etc.
WoW Blew this wide open due to it's major success it made and giving of a certain feel where people could say okay this is a fairly "risk-free" sucessfull formula let's run with this.. to be honest I believe it's this train of thought which Blizz might have indirectly caused that began to stagnate the industry.
Why?
Because Companies and especially regarding big-time corporations are all about the risk-reward factor.
They won't risk anything or pretty much anything for that matter as long as what works keeps working and keeps lining their pockets.
So...uh yeah...i guess that WAS the bomb trigger o.O hehe oops :$
I think people focus so much on companies emulating wow that they miss just how many other games are trying to innovate.
Chronicles of Spellborn, Tabula Rasa, All Points Bulletin, FF14, Global Agenda, AoC, Seed, Vanguard, MetaPlace, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Pirates of the Caribean, Gods&Heroes, HellgateLondon, Huxley, Lego Universe, FusionFall, Dungeons&Dragons online, Dark&Light, DungeonRunners, Xyson, minecraft and so on.
On top of that there is nothing wrong with aiming for a niche game in a market this size. If a successful mmo had 200k users pre-wow, then there is nothing wrong with aiming for that now. Eve is about as niche as a game could be: full loot pvp, space, sandbox, harsh death everything painful, spreadsheets of doom, but it has almost 400k users.
There is only 1 reason more games cannot find that level of success in the current market and that has to do with the developers.
Prior to wow, companies were emulating EQ (which is exactly what blizzard did) and that didn't seem to be a problem. It wasn't until blizzard showed developers just how many customers they were missing out on by releasing half finished games and penalizing players for doing anything in game just to stretch out the subscription time.
The problem is that developers missed what made wow such a success. Instead of emulating how blizzard made wow, they focused on wow and continue to release half finshed buggy poorly designed games. It really isn't a surprise that so few games have found success and blizzard/wow can't be held responsible for that.
At some point developers need to be held accountable for their own actions and not have blame shifted to the few companies that took the time and attention to deliver a solid product to its customers.
Had WoW been made with the exact same developers, with the exact same mechanics, but under a different developer and IP, it wouldn't be the success it is today.
Marketing and brand fanaticism is a large reason why WoW is as popular as it is. All of the B.net players jumped on board WoW, not even knowing an an MMO was. Heck before WoW the typical response to an MMO from a non MMO-gamer was, "wait, you have to buy the game AND pay $15 every month?!" A lot of the people who thought this had no problem playing WoW, because of Blizzard.
Blizzard is not directly at fault, but they are still the cause of the stagnation of the MMO market. By bringing in masses of 'low quality' gamers they've dumbed down the market into instant gratification. That's what Blizzard does very well at, instant gratification gameplay. WoW has such a huge market share that other publishers want to copy it, so developers are almost forced to try to copy WoW if they want to get any funding. This is what's stagnating the market, but hopefully it won't last as more people start to realize how shallow WoW really is.
So how did games with the marketing of these behemoths not find the same level of success as wow? They certainly have the marketing knowhow and budget.
Electronic Arts
Sony
Warner Brothers
Microsoft
Why didn't any of the following massive IPs find the same level of success with thier MMOS? Again huge followings to draw on and most larger than what blizzard had.
The Sim
Star Wars
Star Trek
Warhammer
The Martix
Lord of the Rings
Dungeons and Dragons
Now consider that some games have both massive IP and huge publisher behind it. G
Perhaps there is more to the success of wow that grabbing a bunch of low quality players. Maybe the majority of computer games just were not willing to put up with shitty incomplete boring mmos? Maybe they actually had higher standards. Just to play devils advocate to your theory.
The secret to WoW's success was Warcraft 3. They carried a huge player following, and this is the ONLY reason that this game became such a huge success.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I would argue that the game is more akin to Diablo 2, which was arguably much more popular than Warcraft 3. There is not, or never really was, much Warcraft going on in WoW, in my experience.
As far as the Topic goes, I don't think Blizzard really innovated much to begin with. They took some popular ideas and built upon them, sometiems for the better, sometimes not. Innovation has not really been Blizzards forte over the years, in my opinion. It's been more about polish and timing than anything else. I also do not belive blizzards success has caused the market to stagnate. The fact that nothing better (in my personal opinion) has come out since WoW is probably why it's stagnate.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
At one time I used to have alot of respect for Blizzard because they worked hard to get where they are today but since WoW's success they have become extremely spoiled and lazy. Their success is their own worst enemy. So yeah they stagnated innovation alot because in their minds they believe big numbers means progress. The McDonalds statements have never been more true today.
You're missing the key ingrediant. For all of those other big budget developers with big name IPs... none of the MMOs made by those developers with those IPs had a large online gamer following backing the developer and/or the IP(s).
Blizzard had millions of B.net gamers who played a myriad of Blizzard games online, ranging from Diablo, to Starcraft, to Warcraft. It's this large population that largely kick-started WoW's success. It wasn't much of a nudge to get them from playing those games, to playing WoW. Without this core fanbase, WoW wouldn't have had the catalyst that pushed WoW into the spotlight, and it would have been nowhere near as successful.
Blizzard didn't stagnate innovation. The investors in the mmos that came after WoW cause the stagnation when they expected WoW-like profits from whatever mmo they were investing in.
Yes, but anyone who was a gamer in the 1990's knew about these games because they were good games. WoW was a good game on it's own merits. If it was not a good game, it would not matter how good Blizzards other games were because it would have flopped. Brand recognition is nothing compared to word of mouth beyond initial release.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
The points about b.net and Warcraft III contributing to WoWs success are clearly valid.
But...what sealed the deal (in my opinion anyway) was the "perfect storm" of Blizzard holding the no. 1 spot in online gaming as internet availability spread and the home pc became standard for more and more people (hardware prices decreasing etc.). Add clever marketing into the pot and you have a perfect confluence of circumstances that no other game will likely ever be able to match.
Trouble is, investors and money-men aren't aware of the perfect storm that led to Blizzard's massive success (here it's important not to forget about the polish and smoothness one feels playing WoW as well) and they look at the behemoth and tihnk it's some magic formula that can be carbon-copied for guaranteed riches.
The carbon copies mostly don't match WoW in terms of an already successful IP that was already available for online play in some form (WCIII), they don't have the magical once-in-a-lifetime timing of their release, and they rarely (if ever) have that wonderfully smooth responsive gaming experience that WoW offers.
I had my time with WoW and that time is over, I have no ill-will towards Blizzard. If imitation truly is the sincerest form of flattery, Blizzard have a lot of admirers (even if they're only admiring earnings reports). Whether a company prizes innovation over emulation is their own decision. Few gamers will give up a long history with a game they enjoy for a 15th sheet carbon copy (or to be more modern about it, a low dpi scan) of the game they already play.
Add to the above the players who are increasingly demanding familiarity (only then to turn around and say the whole thing is overly familiar, or constantly carp about how WoW did x, y, and z better) and as a developer these days you're damned if you innovate and damned if you don't.
Don't blame Blizzard. Blame every clone and copy out there. Every company wants to BE Blizzard, but not one of them has done what Blizzard did. Blizzard took all the good from several different games and made it better. They took the things players didn't like and either improved it or removed it.
Just because no other companies have the ability to see the market like Blizzard did, doesn't make Blizzard bad. In fact, be pleased Blizzard came about. They've set the standard. It can be beaten and it can be improved upon...but companies continue failing because all they see are $$$!!!
I didn't read the whole thread, just the OP, but WoW did cause quite a number of MMORPG's to change from what they were or intended to be: from SWG that changed radically with the NGE, to a Middle Earth Online that became very WoW-like when it turned into LotrO, to WAR and even new MMORPG's like Rift and SWTOR thank a lot of similarities to WoW.
So yes, innovation has been lower than it could be the last few years. But there are also more MMORPG's than there might have been without WoW. And as stated in the OP, 2011 might become the year that the MMO business finally started to climb out of the valley of stagnancy of the past years.
There's a GW2, a TSW, MMOFPS like Firefall and Planetside Next, indie sandbox with a lot of potential Xsyon, AAA sandbox title ArcheAge, action oriented combat and politics in TERA, and even MMORPG's that are closest to WoW themepark mechanics like Rift and SWTOR bring their own innovations cq improvements like the dynamic rifts, cinematic questing with branching storylines and a different form of crafting.
To me the MMO future is looking brighter than it used to be when it comes to innovation.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
If WoW was made exactly the same as it is now, but by a developer other than Blizzard and using a different IP, it would be nowhere near as successful as it is now.
I'm not debating whether WoW is a good game or not. What I am saying is that , if Blizzard did not have rabidly loyal consumer following it would not have been able to leverage itself into a cultural phenominon through agressive marketing both by Blizzard and virally.
WoW is extremely successful because of the right marketing circumstances, not because it's an amazing or unique game.
I've started to look at MMO's the same way I look at movies.
Movies cost, millions of millions of dollars (minus those rare gems) and all the producers and investors who are fronting the money for the movies want to make sure they turn a profit of some sort. As such 90% of the time they will try to stick to established formulas that 'work'.
One thing I noticed after seeing Avatar, was that every fricken third movie had some sort of 3D jazz in it. For some reason 3D is 'in' now.
Cross over to Blizzard, they made WoW which essentially set the benchmark of what constitutes a 'good' mmorpg and they made it so well infact that any company looking to compete in the market will have to spend millions of dollars in order to create a game of a similar quality. Now the investors behind the game, fronting the money will look at established norms within the MMO industry and see that, "X game failed this way, Y game didn't do this right, Look at WoW though, they have it right, they are making money make it that way or I won't give you money."
Then suddenly, much like all the 3D movies we have around now. We have WoW clones.
It's going to take several (or one) company willing to risk millions of dollars on a risky concept in order to make the next step.
If that was the case, then the population explosion in the mmo market would have cascaded to other mmos. People who "just found out about mmos" would explore other games and everyone would prosper as a result.
Yet the exact opposite happened. Almost every single mmo experienced massive decline and never recovered from it. Even EQ2 which released 2 weeks before wow lost almost half of its population to Wow in the first year.
Read the early reviews of wow to see just how different it was from the crop of mmos at the time and just how different it really was. It is the first game I remember people not only recommending to friends, but those friends enjoying it so much that they recommended it to their friends. The world of mouth was massive.
Compare that to Everquest for example. Fun game, but it just wasn't friendly to most people. Just for example, before EQ2/WoW released Everquest had over 2.5 MILLION people try it. LINK
I'm not sure how big battlenet was prior to WoW, but there were already millions and millions of people looking at mmos and not sticking around. The problem was (and still is) the developers and their games. The mentality of "release it now and fix it later" combined with the mentality that penalizing gameplay to extend the length of players subscription didn't exactly hit the sweet spot of gamers.