Shrug. I don't know how long you've been playing MMO's, but as far as I recall, this has been the case with all MMO's that didn't put you in fixed classes in the first place, but where you could pick your selection of skills.
No classes means that you aren't set into a fixed class like with most MMO's, but just like with other classless MMO's from the past, this doesn't mean that roles don't exist in team combat or that core mechanics, like dps or healing or crowd control or buff/debuff or tanking and such suddenly don't exist anymore.
Exactly. I was thinking this reminds me of UO and UO was most definitely classless. But that didn't mean that you didn't have a role to fulfill in dungeons. I don't understand what the issue is here and why some people can't see that this is a traditionally classless game. /shrug
I'm thinking some folks just want to redefine the traditionally accepted meaning of the word classless so that they can fish for angry fanboi comments or something. Hmm? Just a hunch I have and only my opinion, but....yeah.
Heh. What you're saying is that someone might be trolling or trollbaiting without you actually accusing or using the words 'troll' or 'trolling'. That's a neat way of wording things
And yep, classless MMO's has been a part of the genre since UO.
Remind me to never take you on an undercover sting. heh
Shrug. I don't know how long you've been playing MMO's, but as far as I recall, this has been the case with all MMO's that didn't put you in fixed classes in the first place, but where you could pick your selection of skills.
No classes means that you aren't set into a fixed class like with most MMO's, but just like with other classless MMO's from the past, this doesn't mean that roles don't exist in team combat or that core mechanics, like dps or healing or crowd control or buff/debuff or tanking and such suddenly don't exist anymore.
Exactly. I was thinking this reminds me of UO and UO was most definitely classless. But that didn't mean that you didn't have a role to fulfill in dungeons. I don't understand what the issue is here and why some people can't see that this is a traditionally classless game. /shrug
I'm thinking some folks just want to redefine the traditionally accepted meaning of the word classless so that they can fish for angry fanboi comments or something. Hmm? Just a hunch I have and only my opinion, but....yeah.
Heh. What you're saying is that someone might be trolling or trollbaiting without you actually accusing or using the words 'troll' or 'trolling'. That's a neat way of wording things
And yep, classless MMO's has been a part of the genre since UO.
Remind me to never take you on an undercover sting. heh
ha!
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
... that analysis thing kind of amuses me actually.
I want to know, if I pick a really crappy set of skills that doesn't synergize or anything, if the game will dress me in a dunce cap so my teammates know they can safely let me die without negatively impacting the team's performance.
There might be a billion and one different combinations and no pre-defined classes, but classes exist. I don't see how it is classless, if I make the same skill choices as you I will have the same class.
So in your opinion, TSW will be the game with the most classes ever? Someone do the math, how many different ways are there to pick 14 skills from 500+?
... that analysis thing kind of amuses me actually.
I want to know, if I pick a really crappy set of skills that doesn't synergize or anything, if the game will dress me in a dunce cap so my teammates know they can safely let me die without negatively impacting the team's performance.
ROFLMAO
That would be about the handiest MMO feature EVER.
I hate when "healers" look the same etc. There should be some give aways. . ie. heavy armour is likley a tank. . but they might as well just make DPS characters red, healers blue, support green etc. I mean the whole character. . skin and all. A bit of a rant there I know.
I am still not getting it, you seem to infer there is no class only because there is choice and you can change that choice. But if you are continuing to have the same tradiotional roles involved, tank, dps, healer you have classes. Now your build or skill choices may determine your class but there will still be a class involved.
Classless means there is no distinction of being involved/connected to a particular class. There has to be some distinction if a character is expected to take on a specific role. Otherwise everybody without screwing around, picking builds or changing anything, should be able to play any role required in the game. We aren't saying that, we are saying the traditional roles are still going to be there. Which in turn infers that some sort of class structure, no matter how complex or specialised, is going to be involved. Otherwise you are going to end up with a tank that can't tank, a healer that can't heal and a dps that is as much use as a cholocate teapot. Well that might make for an interesting game! But I doubt people are going to want you to be part of a group if you don't have the class to fullfil your role.
I am still not getting it, you seem to infer there is no class only because there is choice and you can change that choice. But if you are continuing to have the same tradiotional roles involved, tank, dps, healer you have classes. Now your build or skill choices may determine your class but there will still be a class involved.
Classless means there is no distinction of being involved/connected to a particular class. There has to be some distinction if a character is expected to take on a specific role. Otherwise everybody without screwing around, picking builds or changing anything, should be able to play any role required in the game. We aren't saying that, we are saying the traditional roles are still going to be there. Which in turn infers that some sort of class structure, no matter how complex or specialised, is going to be involved. Otherwise you are going to end up with a tank that can't tank, a healer that can't heal and a dps that is as much use as a cholocate teapot. Well that might make for an interesting game! But I doubt people are going to want you to be part of a group if you don't have the class to fullfil your role.
And technically speaking there arent classes. Though some skills are more effective for some roles then others.
But if you truely want to nitpick. You can equip a riffle there for you are a ranged class.
You can equip a melee weapon there for you are a melee.
You are all the classes in one, how effective you are at a specivic role is entirely upto you.
You are free to buy any skills you want with points. There are still "classes" in an informal way. An example would be melee, rifle, pistol etc. builds. You can make subtle changes.. . add some crafting and drop something else etc. but to be "useful" you still need to spend points in a general way. The best "builds" become standard and because there are always those that will Min/Max a character anyone who does not use those builds or something close will not be as effective. You still have the choice. . or do you BUM BUM BUM (<--evil base drum)
Take UO for example. You could take swordsmanship but if you didn't take things like anatomy, parry etc. (I forget the related skills) you would not be as good in combat. SWG had the same issue.
For the sake of bringing it into discussion, this falls within the Themepark or Sandbox concept.
I would not say its class or classless, I would merely say that it has Sandbox character design.
So that gives you clear expectation of the progression.
If I had said it was Themepark character design, you would expect cookie cutter classes and skills based on the underlying system.
Summing it up, for the developers it is a Classless environment because you are basing characters on Roles, not set paths within the system's "class system".
Think of it kind of like Champions Online.
Yes you can use any weapon, you can use any power, atleast when it initially released, however your choice determines your ROLE, not your CLASS.
Uniforms (roles) are given only to please the pvp crowd, while some pvpérs might not give a damn the mayor part always complains when they cant see who is who in what type of role.
Uniforms are just there to help you see what kind of danger you can expect when in pvp, It be fun to break that system tho :P taking 3 self heals and a buff skill and the 3 close combat skills. 3*heal+buff=healer vs 3*close combat(dmg role) but together its makes a heal tank that can do decent damage. be fun to see if the system can manage to find the right type of uniform for you when you get 500 skills and can take 7 actives and 7 passives out of them.
adds a nice dirty tactic to pvp.. true Dragon Chaos style :P
Class is a restriction/specialisation you chose when rolling your toon or before you start progressing it (in the case of crafting profession). So no, TSW doesnt have classes.
Uniforms (roles) are given only to please the pvp crowd, while some pvpérs might not give a damn the mayor part always complains when they cant see who is who in what type of role.
Uniforms are just there to help you see what kind of danger you can expect when in pvp, It be fun to break that system tho :P taking 3 self heals and a buff skill and the 3 close combat skills. 3*heal+buff=healer vs 3*close combat(dmg role) but together its makes a heal tank that can do decent damage. be fun to see if the system can manage to find the right type of uniform for you when you get 500 skills and can take 7 actives and 7 passives out of them.
adds a nice dirty tactic to pvp.. true Dragon Chaos style :P
they clearly stated that you can fake a role, like being dressed as a tank, while doing heavy dps.
I am still not getting it, you seem to infer there is no class only because there is choice and you can change that choice. But if you are continuing to have the same tradiotional roles involved, tank, dps, healer you have classes. Now your build or skill choices may determine your class but there will still be a class involved.
Classless means there is no distinction of being involved/connected to a particular class. There has to be some distinction if a character is expected to take on a specific role. Otherwise everybody without screwing around, picking builds or changing anything, should be able to play any role required in the game. We aren't saying that, we are saying the traditional roles are still going to be there. Which in turn infers that some sort of class structure, no matter how complex or specialised, is going to be involved. Otherwise you are going to end up with a tank that can't tank, a healer that can't heal and a dps that is as much use as a cholocate teapot. Well that might make for an interesting game! But I doubt people are going to want you to be part of a group if you don't have the class to fullfil your role.
Thing you dont seem to be getting is that a 'role' has nothing to do with a 'class'.
A role is something that you can do - you can fill the role of a healer, tank, ranged or melee DPS if you so wish at any given time.
With a 'Class' you have to always fill that role.
Take a real world example;
I work in IT. I work mostly at a desk fixing other peoples errors/mistake/issue. If the janitor called in due to illness I could go around and empty the trash cans in the office, filling the role of 'janitor' for a bit. Once I am done with taking out the trash I can resume doing my own work. By taking on the role of 'janitor' for a bit doesn't mean my job title changes, my pay goes down and security privliges change. It just means that I too can empty a waste basket if needed.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Thing you dont seem to be getting is that a 'role' has nothing to do with a 'class'.
A role is something that you can do - you can fill the role of a healer, tank, ranged or melee DPS if you so wish at any given time.
With a 'Class' you have to always fill that role.
Take a real world example;
I work in IT. I work mostly at a desk fixing other peoples errors/mistake/issue. If the janitor called in due to illness I could go around and empty the trash cans in the office, filling the role of 'janitor' for a bit. Once I am done with taking out the trash I can resume doing my own work. By taking on the role of 'janitor' for a bit doesn't mean my job title changes, my pay goes down and security privliges change. It just means that I too can empty a waste basket if needed.
Yes but the janitor would not be able to do what you do, because he does not have the 'class' requiirements.
Thing you dont seem to be getting is that a 'role' has nothing to do with a 'class'.
A role is something that you can do - you can fill the role of a healer, tank, ranged or melee DPS if you so wish at any given time.
With a 'Class' you have to always fill that role.
Take a real world example;
I work in IT. I work mostly at a desk fixing other peoples errors/mistake/issue. If the janitor called in due to illness I could go around and empty the trash cans in the office, filling the role of 'janitor' for a bit. Once I am done with taking out the trash I can resume doing my own work. By taking on the role of 'janitor' for a bit doesn't mean my job title changes, my pay goes down and security privliges change. It just means that I too can empty a waste basket if needed.
Yes but the janitor would not be able to do what you do, because he does not have the 'class' requiirements.
But he can learn those skills and change his role if he so wishes. He's not forever stuck in that position unless he choses to be. a classless system in TSW is akin to real life. You can learn many skills that will allow you to fit any conceivable role. The only thing that forces you to be a certain role forever is you.
And thats the point you are missing. But judging by your reaching for straws statement above it just shows that its not a matter of 'not getting it' it's really just a matter of 'chosing to ignore it for the sake of ranting about it'...
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I am still not getting it, you seem to infer there is no class only because there is choice and you can change that choice. But if you are continuing to have the same tradiotional roles involved, tank, dps, healer you have classes. Now your build or skill choices may determine your class but there will still be a class involved.
Classless means there is no distinction of being involved/connected to a particular class. There has to be some distinction if a character is expected to take on a specific role. Otherwise everybody without screwing around, picking builds or changing anything, should be able to play any role required in the game. We aren't saying that, we are saying the traditional roles are still going to be there. Which in turn infers that some sort of class structure, no matter how complex or specialised, is going to be involved. Otherwise you are going to end up with a tank that can't tank, a healer that can't heal and a dps that is as much use as a cholocate teapot. Well that might make for an interesting game! But I doubt people are going to want you to be part of a group if you don't have the class to fullfil your role.
That's assuming every possible MMO encounter requires the holy trinity. It's true for tank and spank raid boss fights, but how much of the game is that? What kind of team setups work best is impossible to know without having played the game.
Just an example: There is no xp, and no levels, so avoiding combat altogether may at times be more beneficial than burning through mobs fast. So for a hypothetical mission, all members of a team would pick up stealth, some crowd control and self heals to be able to get to the objective fast with a minimum amount of time wasted on combat. If there was a boss fight at the end, the skills needed could be distributed amongst team members. (snares/debuffs/buffs/ranged attacks effective in that particular fight).
This kind of mission where all members can benefit from having the same skills in 2-3 slots, and the rest of the skills needed to complete the mission are taken by whoever has a slot available is very likely to occur in TSW from what we have learned so far. Ideally, the sum of skills and synergies available for the party is more important than what each individual specializes in. This does not fit in well with the class stereotypes.
Roles do not equate to having classes. Classes are just a sub-category below roles.
You can have roles without having classes.
A player with shotgun has a role but does not need a class. Weapons can be used for roles just as classes are used for roles. If that player takes a shotgun and a sniper, is he a hyrid class? No, but he CAN have hybrid roles.
The same is true for levelling and progression. Progression sits at the top, while levelling is just a facet of levelling.
But he can learn those skills and change his role if he so wishes. He's not forever stuck in that position unless he choses to be. a classless system in TSW is akin to real life. You can learn many skills that will allow you to fit any conceivable role. The only thing that forces you to be a certain role forever is you.
And thats the point you are missing. But judging by your reaching for straws statement above it just shows that its not a matter of 'not getting it' it's really just a matter of 'chosing to ignore it for the sake of ranting about it'...
You lot will be telling me society is classless or communism works before the end of this discussion.
Of course there is nothing holding the janitor back apart from his decisions to date. Which is fundamentally the point - those decisions are likely to place him in a particular class through choice or circumstance Even more so in a game where you are aiming to fulfil a typical role. I doubt anybody that has it in their mind to deal damage in TSW is going to be picking skills or abilities that don't have anything to do with dps. Just because classes don't exist on paper, doesn't mean the game is classless.
As for ranting, this isn't me ranting this is me disagreeing. Skyrim as an example, they removed traditional classes. Could they have said they removed classes? Possibly if I agree with the arguments that are being put forward here. But I don't, I understand what they have done. The way you play determines your class - the way your play. Not what options/skills you choose. Alter the way you play, alters your class. Yet TSW is classesless but you still pick a build, to me the factor that you pick a build means you are to all intents and purposes creating a class. Because that build can be copied if it is found is suits a particular role. To my mind Skyrim sounds more classless than TSW - yet they don't state classes have been removed only that 'traditional classes' have been removed.
Roles do not equate to having classes. Classes are just a sub-category below roles.
You can have roles without having classes.
A player with shotgun has a role but does not need a class. Weapons can be used for roles just as classes are used for roles. If that player takes a shotgun and a sniper, is he a hyrid class? No, but he CAN have hybrid roles.
The same is true for levelling and progression. Progression sits at the top, while levelling is just a facet of levelling.
The role is the part you play, the class is what you are spec'd for overall. If a player chooses to loadout as a sniper - their class is that of a sniper. Their role would be considered ranged dps - you wouldn't expect that person to be at the front of the pack leading the charge. Because if they were you would think that person was stupid, a sniper rifle is a ranged weapon. You can always play a role with the wrong spec, or the wrong class. But overall most people would tend to spec to suit the class they want to play. Or vice versa if they are aiming to play a paricular role they spec a particular class.
But he can learn those skills and change his role if he so wishes. He's not forever stuck in that position unless he choses to be. a classless system in TSW is akin to real life. You can learn many skills that will allow you to fit any conceivable role. The only thing that forces you to be a certain role forever is you.
And thats the point you are missing. But judging by your reaching for straws statement above it just shows that its not a matter of 'not getting it' it's really just a matter of 'chosing to ignore it for the sake of ranting about it'...
You lot will be telling me society is classless or communism works before the end of this discussion.
Of course there is nothing holding the janitor back apart from his decisions to date. Which is fundamentally the point - those decisions are likely to place him in a particular class through choice or circumstance Even more so in a game where you are aiming to fulfil a typical role. I doubt anybody that has it in their mind to deal damage in TSW is going to be picking skills or abilities that don't have anything to do with dps. Just because classes don't exist on paper, doesn't mean the game is classless.
As for ranting, this isn't me ranting this is me disagreeing. Skyrim as an example, they removed traditional classes. Could they have said they removed classes? Possibly if I agree with the arguments that are being put forward here. But I don't, I understand what they have done. The way you play determines your class - the way your play. Not what options/skills you choose. Alter the way you play, alters your class. Yet TSW is classesless but you still pick a build, to me the factor that you pick a build means you are to all intents and purposes creating a class. Because that build can be copied if it is found is suits a particular role. To my mind Skyrim sounds more classless than TSW - yet they don't state classes have been removed only that 'traditional classes' have been removed.
The highlighted part;
The way you play in a classless/skillbased game will determine the skills/abilities you pick, and vise versa. You can change your build on the fly, changing from one role to another, to another if you so wished. There are no predefined roles.
In a class based game, classes house a predefined set of skills/abilities open to that class. What you see is what you get. You start as a Warrior and you end as a Warrior. Want to play a healer? You have to start over.
That is the difference between classless and class based gameplay. Classless/skill based allows the player to chose when and how they will fill a specific role while not locking them into it permanetly. In a game based off classes, you start, play and are forever locked into a predefined role with predefined skills.
Now there are people who will trade and theorize about specific 'power builds' in both types of games, and there will be people who will follow what morons tell them to use because its the 'right' way to play. Thats not the game, thats just people who dont want to have to think for themselves - or they are just plain lazy.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Remind me to never take you on an undercover sting. heh
I think you missed what I was doing, but considering the ROC of this site, I won't elaborate, since that might push it over the line
Originally posted by fallenlords
I am still not getting it
That's alright. Not everyone gets the difference between MMO's that use classes like WoW and LotrO and EQ, and those that provide players the option to select their own skills and create their own roles and builds, like UO and AC. Well, most people do grasp the concept and difference how it's used in context with MMO's, but apparently not all.
Like Fyerwall said:
"In a class based game, classes house a predefined set of skills/abilities open to that class. What you see is what you get. You start as a Warrior and you end as a Warrior. Want to play a healer? You have to start over.
That is the difference between classless and class based gameplay. Classless/skill based allows the player to chose when and how they will fill a specific role while not locking them into it permanetly. In a game based off classes, you start, play and are forever locked into a predefined role with predefined skills."
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The way you play in a classless/skillbased game will determine the skills/abilities you pick, and vise versa. You can change your build on the fly, changing from one role to another, to another if you so wished. There are no predefined roles.
In a class based game, classes house a predefined set of skills/abilities open to that class. What you see is what you get. You start as a Warrior and you end as a Warrior. Want to play a healer? You have to start over.
That is the difference between classless and class based gameplay. Classless/skill based allows the player to chose when and how they will fill a specific role while not locking them into it permanetly. In a game based off classes, you start, play and are forever locked into a predefined role with predefined skills.
Now there are people who will trade and theorize about specific 'power builds' in both types of games, and there will be people who will follow what morons tell them to use because its the 'right' way to play. Thats not the game, thats just people who dont want to have to think for themselves - or they are just plain lazy.
As far as Skyrim is concerned, from what I understand, if you want to be an Archer (class) all you need to do to become an Archer is start playing as an Archer. You want to become a Mage (class) all you need to do is start using magic and playing as a Mage, you want to be a Thief (class) start doing sneaky stuff and thief type activities. The standard classes have been removed so it doesn't ask you after half an hour of play and say 'I think based on your playstyle you should be a ______ '. Your playstyle determines your class.
Because a game is skill based in nature I don't see how that automatically makes it classless. Skills have to be available to fill roles - if you are not getting away from standard roles. I find it hard to perceive that classes are also removed. It's easy to say no classes when all you have done is removed any pre-defined config and just given the user a massive skill tree to play with to keep them occupied. My argument is you shouldn't need the skill tree/talent list whatever. The skill tree in effect is creating a class. If the boys at Funcom are going to make changes to a skill, that will done with a class in mind. That are not going to individually tailor a skill for a particular users setup. They will make a global change which will effect different classes in different ways. Whether they want to acknowledge classes exist or not.
Of course people will trade builds - as soon as somebody finds out a particular skill is overpowered or there is a bug everybody will be using similar builds. Because if anything is competitive then you don't want to forgoe the advantage. Which is again why I say the existance of any sort of skill tree is in itself creating classes. Now if all of this was hidden to the user to a degree - then I would be more inclined to believe it's classless.
You are free to buy any skills you want with points. There are still "classes" in an informal way. An example would be melee, rifle, pistol etc. builds. You can make subtle changes.. . add some crafting and drop something else etc. but to be "useful" you still need to spend points in a general way. The best "builds" become standard and because there are always those that will Min/Max a character anyone who does not use those builds or something close will not be as effective. You still have the choice. . or do you BUM BUM BUM (<--evil base drum)
Take UO for example. You could take swordsmanship but if you didn't take things like anatomy, parry etc. (I forget the related skills) you would not be as good in combat. SWG had the same issue.
Fallen Earth felt classless and leveless I will admit. Never felt a need to bother about either area, just played the game and on occasion reviewed where I was at overall. All praise to them in that instance. But as you mention certain builds became a standard. Certain things were overpowered and non of it to my mind pointed to class or role, it just pointed to skills/build. The idea that PVP in TSW is going to be great because everybody is different I don't think is going work that well. You will get what happened in Fallen Earth with standard builds which in effect create a class hybrid or otherwise that are known to be effective.
Once you start focusing on certain actions, you BECOME a class. In most of these games where you can do anything, you tend to find out very quick that a jack of all trades is not only a master of none, but tends to fall so far behind specialists he's not useful for any sort of group role. So people start to pigeonhole into roles to suit the needs of their group.
Then the min/maxers come out. They crunch a few numbers, realize x skill is weak and y skill needs to be at least z level for you to keep up with the big boys..and then in a game qith millions of possible skill combintations, you still end up with a dozen or so cookie-cutter clones that follow whichever build(s) is/are currently most effective.
This isn't per se a bad thing. I just wish people would realize it and stop yammering that "classless" games like UO or TSW are superior. If anything they're worse, because they give uneducated players more room to fail. They're more punishing to noobs, but offer nothing to any player with state smarts (or who can manage to use the search feature on his/her game's forums)
Comments
Remind me to never take you on an undercover sting. heh
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
... that analysis thing kind of amuses me actually.
I want to know, if I pick a really crappy set of skills that doesn't synergize or anything, if the game will dress me in a dunce cap so my teammates know they can safely let me die without negatively impacting the team's performance.
So in your opinion, TSW will be the game with the most classes ever? Someone do the math, how many different ways are there to pick 14 skills from 500+?
Edit: I see someone already did the math
ROFLMAO
That would be about the handiest MMO feature EVER.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I hate when "healers" look the same etc. There should be some give aways. . ie. heavy armour is likley a tank. . but they might as well just make DPS characters red, healers blue, support green etc. I mean the whole character. . skin and all. A bit of a rant there I know.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
I am still not getting it, you seem to infer there is no class only because there is choice and you can change that choice. But if you are continuing to have the same tradiotional roles involved, tank, dps, healer you have classes. Now your build or skill choices may determine your class but there will still be a class involved.
Classless means there is no distinction of being involved/connected to a particular class. There has to be some distinction if a character is expected to take on a specific role. Otherwise everybody without screwing around, picking builds or changing anything, should be able to play any role required in the game. We aren't saying that, we are saying the traditional roles are still going to be there. Which in turn infers that some sort of class structure, no matter how complex or specialised, is going to be involved. Otherwise you are going to end up with a tank that can't tank, a healer that can't heal and a dps that is as much use as a cholocate teapot. Well that might make for an interesting game! But I doubt people are going to want you to be part of a group if you don't have the class to fullfil your role.
And technically speaking there arent classes. Though some skills are more effective for some roles then others.
But if you truely want to nitpick. You can equip a riffle there for you are a ranged class.
You can equip a melee weapon there for you are a melee.
You are all the classes in one, how effective you are at a specivic role is entirely upto you.
Fallen earth is a good example of this system.
You are free to buy any skills you want with points. There are still "classes" in an informal way. An example would be melee, rifle, pistol etc. builds. You can make subtle changes.. . add some crafting and drop something else etc. but to be "useful" you still need to spend points in a general way. The best "builds" become standard and because there are always those that will Min/Max a character anyone who does not use those builds or something close will not be as effective. You still have the choice. . or do you BUM BUM BUM (<--evil base drum)
Take UO for example. You could take swordsmanship but if you didn't take things like anatomy, parry etc. (I forget the related skills) you would not be as good in combat. SWG had the same issue.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
To make it a bit clearer:
People use different termonologies differently.
to some, its a coke, and to others, its a soda.
Class and Classless is virtually a thin line.
For the sake of bringing it into discussion, this falls within the Themepark or Sandbox concept.
I would not say its class or classless, I would merely say that it has Sandbox character design.
So that gives you clear expectation of the progression.
If I had said it was Themepark character design, you would expect cookie cutter classes and skills based on the underlying system.
Summing it up, for the developers it is a Classless environment because you are basing characters on Roles, not set paths within the system's "class system".
Think of it kind of like Champions Online.
Yes you can use any weapon, you can use any power, atleast when it initially released, however your choice determines your ROLE, not your CLASS.
Uniforms (roles) are given only to please the pvp crowd, while some pvpérs might not give a damn the mayor part always complains when they cant see who is who in what type of role.
Uniforms are just there to help you see what kind of danger you can expect when in pvp, It be fun to break that system tho :P taking 3 self heals and a buff skill and the 3 close combat skills. 3*heal+buff=healer vs 3*close combat(dmg role) but together its makes a heal tank that can do decent damage. be fun to see if the system can manage to find the right type of uniform for you when you get 500 skills and can take 7 actives and 7 passives out of them.
adds a nice dirty tactic to pvp.. true Dragon Chaos style :P
Class is a restriction/specialisation you chose when rolling your toon or before you start progressing it (in the case of crafting profession). So no, TSW doesnt have classes.
they clearly stated that you can fake a role, like being dressed as a tank, while doing heavy dps.
this is already in their plans.
Thing you dont seem to be getting is that a 'role' has nothing to do with a 'class'.
A role is something that you can do - you can fill the role of a healer, tank, ranged or melee DPS if you so wish at any given time.
With a 'Class' you have to always fill that role.
Take a real world example;
I work in IT. I work mostly at a desk fixing other peoples errors/mistake/issue. If the janitor called in due to illness I could go around and empty the trash cans in the office, filling the role of 'janitor' for a bit. Once I am done with taking out the trash I can resume doing my own work. By taking on the role of 'janitor' for a bit doesn't mean my job title changes, my pay goes down and security privliges change. It just means that I too can empty a waste basket if needed.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Yes but the janitor would not be able to do what you do, because he does not have the 'class' requiirements.
But he can learn those skills and change his role if he so wishes. He's not forever stuck in that position unless he choses to be. a classless system in TSW is akin to real life. You can learn many skills that will allow you to fit any conceivable role. The only thing that forces you to be a certain role forever is you.
And thats the point you are missing. But judging by your reaching for straws statement above it just shows that its not a matter of 'not getting it' it's really just a matter of 'chosing to ignore it for the sake of ranting about it'...
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
That's assuming every possible MMO encounter requires the holy trinity. It's true for tank and spank raid boss fights, but how much of the game is that? What kind of team setups work best is impossible to know without having played the game.
Just an example: There is no xp, and no levels, so avoiding combat altogether may at times be more beneficial than burning through mobs fast. So for a hypothetical mission, all members of a team would pick up stealth, some crowd control and self heals to be able to get to the objective fast with a minimum amount of time wasted on combat. If there was a boss fight at the end, the skills needed could be distributed amongst team members. (snares/debuffs/buffs/ranged attacks effective in that particular fight).
This kind of mission where all members can benefit from having the same skills in 2-3 slots, and the rest of the skills needed to complete the mission are taken by whoever has a slot available is very likely to occur in TSW from what we have learned so far. Ideally, the sum of skills and synergies available for the party is more important than what each individual specializes in. This does not fit in well with the class stereotypes.
Roles do not equate to having classes. Classes are just a sub-category below roles.
You can have roles without having classes.
A player with shotgun has a role but does not need a class. Weapons can be used for roles just as classes are used for roles. If that player takes a shotgun and a sniper, is he a hyrid class? No, but he CAN have hybrid roles.
The same is true for levelling and progression. Progression sits at the top, while levelling is just a facet of levelling.
You lot will be telling me society is classless or communism works before the end of this discussion.
Of course there is nothing holding the janitor back apart from his decisions to date. Which is fundamentally the point - those decisions are likely to place him in a particular class through choice or circumstance Even more so in a game where you are aiming to fulfil a typical role. I doubt anybody that has it in their mind to deal damage in TSW is going to be picking skills or abilities that don't have anything to do with dps. Just because classes don't exist on paper, doesn't mean the game is classless.
As for ranting, this isn't me ranting this is me disagreeing. Skyrim as an example, they removed traditional classes. Could they have said they removed classes? Possibly if I agree with the arguments that are being put forward here. But I don't, I understand what they have done. The way you play determines your class - the way your play. Not what options/skills you choose. Alter the way you play, alters your class. Yet TSW is classesless but you still pick a build, to me the factor that you pick a build means you are to all intents and purposes creating a class. Because that build can be copied if it is found is suits a particular role. To my mind Skyrim sounds more classless than TSW - yet they don't state classes have been removed only that 'traditional classes' have been removed.
The role is the part you play, the class is what you are spec'd for overall. If a player chooses to loadout as a sniper - their class is that of a sniper. Their role would be considered ranged dps - you wouldn't expect that person to be at the front of the pack leading the charge. Because if they were you would think that person was stupid, a sniper rifle is a ranged weapon. You can always play a role with the wrong spec, or the wrong class. But overall most people would tend to spec to suit the class they want to play. Or vice versa if they are aiming to play a paricular role they spec a particular class.
The highlighted part;
The way you play in a classless/skillbased game will determine the skills/abilities you pick, and vise versa. You can change your build on the fly, changing from one role to another, to another if you so wished. There are no predefined roles.
In a class based game, classes house a predefined set of skills/abilities open to that class. What you see is what you get. You start as a Warrior and you end as a Warrior. Want to play a healer? You have to start over.
That is the difference between classless and class based gameplay. Classless/skill based allows the player to chose when and how they will fill a specific role while not locking them into it permanetly. In a game based off classes, you start, play and are forever locked into a predefined role with predefined skills.
Now there are people who will trade and theorize about specific 'power builds' in both types of games, and there will be people who will follow what morons tell them to use because its the 'right' way to play. Thats not the game, thats just people who dont want to have to think for themselves - or they are just plain lazy.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I think you missed what I was doing, but considering the ROC of this site, I won't elaborate, since that might push it over the line
That's alright. Not everyone gets the difference between MMO's that use classes like WoW and LotrO and EQ, and those that provide players the option to select their own skills and create their own roles and builds, like UO and AC. Well, most people do grasp the concept and difference how it's used in context with MMO's, but apparently not all.
Like Fyerwall said:
"In a class based game, classes house a predefined set of skills/abilities open to that class. What you see is what you get. You start as a Warrior and you end as a Warrior. Want to play a healer? You have to start over.
That is the difference between classless and class based gameplay. Classless/skill based allows the player to chose when and how they will fill a specific role while not locking them into it permanetly. In a game based off classes, you start, play and are forever locked into a predefined role with predefined skills."
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
As far as Skyrim is concerned, from what I understand, if you want to be an Archer (class) all you need to do to become an Archer is start playing as an Archer. You want to become a Mage (class) all you need to do is start using magic and playing as a Mage, you want to be a Thief (class) start doing sneaky stuff and thief type activities. The standard classes have been removed so it doesn't ask you after half an hour of play and say 'I think based on your playstyle you should be a ______ '. Your playstyle determines your class.
Because a game is skill based in nature I don't see how that automatically makes it classless. Skills have to be available to fill roles - if you are not getting away from standard roles. I find it hard to perceive that classes are also removed. It's easy to say no classes when all you have done is removed any pre-defined config and just given the user a massive skill tree to play with to keep them occupied. My argument is you shouldn't need the skill tree/talent list whatever. The skill tree in effect is creating a class. If the boys at Funcom are going to make changes to a skill, that will done with a class in mind. That are not going to individually tailor a skill for a particular users setup. They will make a global change which will effect different classes in different ways. Whether they want to acknowledge classes exist or not.
Of course people will trade builds - as soon as somebody finds out a particular skill is overpowered or there is a bug everybody will be using similar builds. Because if anything is competitive then you don't want to forgoe the advantage. Which is again why I say the existance of any sort of skill tree is in itself creating classes. Now if all of this was hidden to the user to a degree - then I would be more inclined to believe it's classless.
Fallen Earth felt classless and leveless I will admit. Never felt a need to bother about either area, just played the game and on occasion reviewed where I was at overall. All praise to them in that instance. But as you mention certain builds became a standard. Certain things were overpowered and non of it to my mind pointed to class or role, it just pointed to skills/build. The idea that PVP in TSW is going to be great because everybody is different I don't think is going work that well. You will get what happened in Fallen Earth with standard builds which in effect create a class hybrid or otherwise that are known to be effective.
There is no such thing as a classless game.
No really, there isn't.
Once you start focusing on certain actions, you BECOME a class. In most of these games where you can do anything, you tend to find out very quick that a jack of all trades is not only a master of none, but tends to fall so far behind specialists he's not useful for any sort of group role. So people start to pigeonhole into roles to suit the needs of their group.
Then the min/maxers come out. They crunch a few numbers, realize x skill is weak and y skill needs to be at least z level for you to keep up with the big boys..and then in a game qith millions of possible skill combintations, you still end up with a dozen or so cookie-cutter clones that follow whichever build(s) is/are currently most effective.
This isn't per se a bad thing. I just wish people would realize it and stop yammering that "classless" games like UO or TSW are superior. If anything they're worse, because they give uneducated players more room to fail. They're more punishing to noobs, but offer nothing to any player with state smarts (or who can manage to use the search feature on his/her game's forums)