You win by enjoying to play. Pretty much like the original D&D paper and pen games.
Design your own win:
Like structured PvP? Win in that department and show your worth on the ladders.
Like something more like the usual mmo-PvP: Zerg your way to win in RvsRvsR.
Like PvE: Own every dungeon, shout your wellmeaning advice at every DE, have fun guiding guildies.
So much inherent win, without the need for +5 to your pants of awesome gearness
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!! (repeat ad infinitum)
How to win? Kill all Elder Dragons. (only Zhaitan at release. And whether you *can* kill them..no one knows..)
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
How have you ever won before ?...perhaps just asking your question makes you a Winner !
That made me laugh.
Anyway, I personally never thought of "winning" in an MMO. I think there are temporary victories that go with the specific game like downing the Lich King or something like that, but to win there has to be a loser, and in PvP especially, victories are only as long as the opponent lets them be. PvE content can be exhausted, so if you want to consider that a win, if that works for you, you won. Personally, I feel like I've lost if I have nothing more to do in an MMO... I like them because they don't have an ending.
From what I gather the OP is asking what do you win as you journey through the game, not how do you win (beat) the game. What do you "win" in PvP or in PvE that helps further your advancement in the game. He is looking for an answer to how do you make your character stronger thereby helping the team...I think
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Winning is an isolated thing in MMO's, winning in one form is hitting the loot lottery. Another form would be winning a PVP skirmish, guild war or match.
This is winning in an MMO, in some ways any MMORPG is a representation of life in a online world. Winning in life is always an isolated thing, you don't always win, sometimes there's nothing to win, such is the way of the MMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
He is looking for an answer to how do you make your character stronger thereby helping the team...I think
In the case of GW2, you won't be able to "get better" by looting epic pants, you make your character stronger by playing the game and understanding the mechanics and skills. If that's what OP was looking for.
What a strange question... I can't remember if I ever played a computer game to "win it". I mean, I play TF2 matches to "win" but I don't play TF2 as a game to win. What would consititute "winning" even a highly competetive game such as TF2? What? Winning some super world tournament or something? But that's winning a tournament, not winning the game.
I mean, how can you "win" a computer game? Maybe you mean, complete it in some way? But what would constitute "completing" a game - see all its content? But what if there is limitless content, as in PvP games where other players provide the challenge... And why you shouldn't revisit the content you like with, for example, another character... "win the game"... what does this mean? I honestly don't understand.
I play computer games for all kinds of reasons, but to "win the game" is not one of them.
What a strange question... I can't remember when I last played a computer game to "win". I mean, I play TF2 matches to "win" but I don't play TF2 as a game to win. What would consititute "winning" even a highly competetive game such as TF2? What? Winning some super world tournament or something? But that's winning a tournament, not winning the game.
I mean, how can you "win" a computer game? Maybe you mean, complete it in some way? But what would constitute "completing" a game - see all its content? But what if there is limitless content, as in PvP games where other players provide the challenge... And why you shouldn't revisit the content you like with, for example, another character... "win the game"... what does this mean? I honestly don't understand.
I play computer games for all kinds of reasons, but to "win them" is not one of them.
What a strange, strange question...
I am pretty sure he is talking about PVP..i think he is.
What a strange question... I can't remember when I last played a computer game to "win". I mean, I play TF2 matches to "win" but I don't play TF2 as a game to win. What would consititute "winning" even a highly competetive game such as TF2? What? Winning some super world tournament or something? But that's winning a tournament, not winning the game.
I mean, how can you "win" a computer game? Maybe you mean, complete it in some way? But what would constitute "completing" a game - see all its content? But what if there is limitless content, as in PvP games where other players provide the challenge... And why you shouldn't revisit the content you like with, for example, another character... "win the game"... what does this mean? I honestly don't understand.
I play computer games for all kinds of reasons, but to "win them" is not one of them.
What a strange, strange question...
I am pretty sure he is talking about PVP..i think he is.
I don't think so:
"IN other mmos i have played it was easy to see winning, especially the real play to win games. Runes of magic i won when i had tons of defense for my armor. In Rift when i reached level 50 and had tier 3 armor. But I don'[t see the winning aspect of GW2."
Maybe by "winning the game" he means "to collect all the top gear in the game." Maybe that is what he is thinking about. What a strange, strange person...
This keeps coming across my mind. I want logical, non flaming answers. With the way Guild Wars 2 is built, not being gear based, not having a strong gold influence, what do you consider "winning" at it. Does winning at a game like GW 2 mean that others are losing?
I think of this question because itssomething we joke about in tabletop dungeons and dragons. I run across a new player oncee a year who builds this broken character, and we have to explain how he's not playing against the other people but with them, so it doesnt matter how powerful his character is, it has to be able to work well with others. So long as everyone has a chance to shine in dungeons and dragons, all players are considered winning. I assumed this to be the case in guild wars 2.
IN other mmos i have played it was easy to see winning, especially the real play to win games. Runes of magic i won when i had tons of defense for my armor. In Rift when i reached level 50 and had tier 3 armor. But I don'[t see the winning aspect of GW2.
No offense OP but it saddens me how brainwashed people have become by the carrot on a stick / treadmill. It's almost as if players these days have complete tunnel vision due to the blinders modern mmo design places on people... and when those blinders are removed to show a range of possibilities, people simply don't know what to do with themselves.
Create your character, enter another world, forge their story, have fun.
Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.
I am pretty sure he is talking about PVP..i think he is.
Pretty sure he is talking about everything except PvP (structured in GW2 that is).
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!! (repeat ad infinitum)
You do not 'win' MMOs, you may complete content, but you do not win... As for WvWvW, you can win the current battle, then you get a new one every 2 weeks, verse equal skilled servers (beginning may have problems, due to no records to base this on)...So every 2 weeks you could win something, but as a whole....No.
I played EQ on and off, mostly on, for like 10 years, I never got my 'you won!' trophy...Played UO for 7-8 years, same thing, and it's the same for every other real MMO I played.
You do not 'win' MMOs, you may complete content, but you do not win... As for WvWvW, you can win the current battle, then you get a new one every 2 weeks, verse equal skilled servers (beginning may have problems, due to no records to base this on)...So every 2 weeks you could win something, but as a whole....No.
I played EQ on and off, mostly on, for like 10 years, I never got my 'you won!' trophy...Played UO for 7-8 years, same thing, and it's the same for every other real MMO I played.
MMOs are made to be open ended.
+1
Read the OPs questions and not just the title.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Oki, maybe I jumped the gun up there.. he does follow with this
"I think of this question because itssomething we joke about in tabletop dungeons and dragons. I run across a new player oncee a year who builds this broken character, and we have to explain how he's not playing against the other people but with them, so it doesnt matter how powerful his character is, it has to be able to work well with others. So long as everyone has a chance to shine in dungeons and dragons, all players are considered winning. I assumed this to be the case in guild wars 2."
Yes, OP. That's what many people hope for GW2... including devs, according to their statements.
In recent years the mmo as defined by WoW has become somewhat of a rat race, "munchkinism" we used to call it back in the D&D days and used to laugh at people who thought that they can "win" at D&D and use it to prove their worth and compensate for RL failings instead of simply enjoying the story, adventure and hanging out with friends.
It's my sincerest hope that GW2 will manage to finally bring that real PnP RPG feel to the mmos. Sadly, not many mmorpgs have done that (or even tried.) They based their mechanics on the PnP games but almost completely ignored their spirit.
I think if you change the wording of the OP's initial question, it is a fair one. Discard for a moment, the term "winning," and ask instead, what do you do when you have achieved the end result of the game? How do you progress when you reach the end?
So, you start at level one. It should be fun, you play to progress through the achievments, the levels, to have fun. There is a sense of achievement and progression, and everything is new as you learn to play your character both in pvp and pve. The thing is, for many people, progression is part of the fun. Fun and progression is not mutually exclusive, they can complement each other, even if they are not one in the same for everyone.
Saying "fun" is vague. Of course it should be fun.
But to say "I played EQ for 7 years for fun" is being a bit disineguous. There were loads of achievements to do, though quite grindy IMHO. Crafting took forever. Levelling took much longer in the early days of EQ than it does for pretty much any game now. In those years there were three expansions, and to be fair there, GW2 will almost certainly have as many, maybe more epxansions than EQ did in the same span of time. Raids were in their infancy, but many enjoyed them. They were much less structured than they are now.
But people will level quickly in GW2 I suspect, and they will flatten out their gear quite quickly. They are then left with the achievement runs, for the sake of fun, and crafting, which by all accounts, even positive ones at this point, pretty shallow. That's cool, I am not knocking it. I am looking forward to it, even the crafting (I like easy crafting to be honest).
But then comes the WvWvW focus. The only progression here is really bragging rights for your server. If strong communities are not developed, that won't even mean anything to most. There is nothing else but doing WvW for fun. Period. That's even fine, great even.
The thing is, many people (myself included) want this to be a game that will fill that void of not having a game we can play for a year or more. But people will, as far as I can tell, max out their achievements in game fairly quickly, and be left to "have fun," but to do so without any real achievement besides that--fun.
Again, that's cool, but that does not sound much different from the end of SWTOR to me. People played through the content available, and then there were....well, done. (Please note, I am not comparing this two games to each other in any way, other than this lack of anything to do at the end, save for repeating WvWvW--I guess even SWTOR did not have that).
I guess what I am saying, is that as much as I am looking forward to this game, I am doubting it will be that game I am looking for to fill the niche of a game I can play for months...maybe years.
Will I play? Hell yes. Am I excited? Again, hell yes. I am not even worried about the cash shop.
Will I get my money's worth? I imagine so.
But do I see WVWvW keeping my attention for months...sadly, not really.
GW2 has gone from a being a game I wanted to play for a long while to a time filler until the elusive game I waiting for comes out...if it ever does.
I think if you change the wording of the OP's initial question, it is a fair one. Discard for a moment, the term "winning," and ask instead, what do you do when you have achieved the end result of the game? How do you progress when you reach the end?
So, you start at level one. It should be fun, you play to progress through the achievments, the levels, to have fun. There is a sense of achievement and progression, and everything is new as you learn to play your character both in pvp and pve. The thing is, for many people, progression is part of the fun. Fun and progression is not mutually exclusive, they can complement each other, even if they are not one in the same for everyone.
Saying "fun" is vague. Of course it should be fun.
But to say "I played EQ for 7 years for fun" is being a bit disineguous. There were loads of achievements to do, though quite grindy IMHO. Crafting took forever. Levelling took much longer in the early days of EQ than it does for pretty much any game now. In those years there were three expansions, and to be fair there, GW2 will almost certainly have as many, maybe more epxansions than EQ did in the same span of time. Raids were in their infancy, but many enjoyed them. They were much less structured than they are now.
But people will level quickly in GW2 I suspect, and they will flatten out their gear quite quickly. They are then left with the achievement runs, for the sake of fun, and crafting, which by all accounts, even positive ones at this point, pretty shallow. That's cool, I am not knocking it. I am looking forward to it, even the crafting (I like easy crafting to be honest).
But then comes the WvWvW focus. The only progression here is really bragging rights for your server. If strong communities are not developed, that won't even mean anything to most. There is nothing else but doing WvW for fun. Period. That's even fine, great even.
The thing is, many people (myself included) want this to be a game that will fill that void of not having a game we can play for a year or more. But people will, as far as I can tell, max out their achievements in game fairly quickly, and be left to "have fun," but to do so without any real achievement besides that--fun.
Again, that's cool, but that does not sound much different from the end of SWTOR to me. People played through the content available, and then there were....well, done. (Please note, I am not comparing this two games to each other in any way, other than this lack of anything to do at the end, save for repeating WvWvW--I guess even SWTOR did not have that).
I guess what I am saying, is that as much as I am looking forward to this game, I am doubting it will be that game I am looking for to fill the niche of a game I can play for months...maybe years.
Will I play? Hell yes. Am I excited? Again, hell yes. I am not even worried about the cash shop.
Will I get my money's worth? I imagine so.
But do I see WVWvW keeping my attention for months...sadly, not really.
GW2 has gone from a being a game I wanted to play for a long while to a time filler until the elusive game I waiting for comes out...if it ever does.
I don't think he is even implying end game. I think he is talking individual quests/pve/pvp "wins". What do you wint to help to make you stronger to help your self or your team.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I'm surprised a Tabletop player asks such a question, especially one who is clearly recognizing how Tabletops are about coop, instead of competition.
Anyway, (MMO) RPGs are not meant to win. They are meant to live a character story. The only winning part is in combats, and I think that GW2 suggests far more ways to win a combat than other current MMOs :
- deeper, trickier skill optimization
- limited skill list to chose before fighting
- solo winning
- coop winning (class combos)
Speaking of class combos, I can't wait to see how old hardcore mmo pvp veterans will show the world incredible ways to win with a full coordinated group.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
You don't really play MMORPG PvE to "win". Just as the OP said re: D&D, GW2 PvE doesn't have to be about min-maxing the most powerful character, it's about building and playing a character in a way that matches your play style and is appropriate for the challenges you will be facing. You can play the game solo, in which case character builds and play strategy are very personal. However, the game rewards cooperative play and people who play that way will be better suited with builds and strategies that work well cooperatively with others. Most certainly, for Dungeon content, having a character and playstyle that support other members of your group and are appropriate for the challenges the game presents are much, much more important that having the "most powerful character" possible.
The way the gear progression works in game, there will not be much advantage to be had via gear when comparing characters of the same level and once you reach the level cap, aquiring max stat gear, while requiring some effort, will not be a long, tedious persuit, nor will there be an endless gear progression with greater and greater gear being introduced on a regular basis.
In WvW, yes, your server can win, or lose, the two week war vs. two other servers, but from the perspective of the individual player, working well with others from your server will be more important than your raw level of power.
For Competative PvP, there are more opportunities to "win", either winning a match, winning a tournament or even winning a season of formal, ladder based play. Even here, the best teams will be those that find group builds that work well together, played by players that play well together. There is no gear advantage in CPVP, from grinding or any other mechanism. Experience, skill, brains, dexterity and cooperation will all be important factors for those looking to win at formal CPVP. (Note, however, that there will be casual matches in CPVP, you don't have to enter formal torunaments to enjoy GW2 CPVP).
For general PvE, there will be things to achieve, for those who enjoy achievments, but most are completely optional and matter only as much as you decide they matter.
I don't mean this to be a silly question, its seriously something I don't now. I keep reading people say Pay to win or buy to win. I need to know what is "winning". I feel there's some major disconnect between what I have read about GW2 and what others believe it is. If I can do something to win, it must mean that I can win. So I am asking, particuarlly from people who believe the game is play2win, what exactly is winning.
My reason for asking this is to figure out the thinking that makes someone say "this is pay to win". With so many pages of why this game is pay to win, I want to know what is winning, from both sides, what will happen to make u "win" the game.
I don't mean this to be a silly question, its seriously something I don't now. I keep reading people say Pay to win or buy to win. I need to know what is "winning". I feel there's some major disconnect between what I have read about GW2 and what others believe it is. If I can do something to win, it must mean that I can win. So I am asking, particuarlly from people who believe the game is play2win, what exactly is winning.
As Kramer said, "You just blew my mind"! lol In that term winning is using the items in a cash shop to your own advantage over others.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I don't mean this to be a silly question, its seriously something I don't now. I keep reading people say Pay to win or buy to win. I need to know what is "winning". I feel there's some major disconnect between what I have read about GW2 and what others believe it is. If I can do something to win, it must mean that I can win. So I am asking, particuarlly from people who believe the game is play2win, what exactly is winning.
My reason for asking this is to figure out the thinking that makes someone say "this is pay to win". With so many pages of why this game is pay to win, I want to know what is winning, from both sides, what will happen to make u "win" the game.
Pay2win is some kind of troll shortcut reference to the Cash Shop, where you can indirectly buy equipment by several levels of transactions between what you buy in the shop, and what you can exchange it for in the end. But it's just a misconception and a lack of education about what the cash shop really offers (or what you can buy with gold) compared to what you can really earn in high level content.
There's no such thing as Pay2Win in GW2. Pay2Win would be the case where you can buy something with real money that would give you a clear advantage over an enemy. This model is more commonly tied to F2P, or "Free To Play", especially with casual games (appstore, etc).
With GW2 cash shop the best advantage you can indirectly earn would be the equivalent of what a gold farmer in WoW would buy. Cosmetics and subpar stuff.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
Comments
You win everytime by walking away from the game periodically, and enjoy real life sitiuations with real friends, and family.
You win by enjoying to play. Pretty much like the original D&D paper and pen games.
Design your own win:
Like structured PvP? Win in that department and show your worth on the ladders.
Like something more like the usual mmo-PvP: Zerg your way to win in RvsRvsR.
Like PvE: Own every dungeon, shout your wellmeaning advice at every DE, have fun guiding guildies.
So much inherent win, without the need for +5 to your pants of awesome gearness
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
How to win? Kill all Elder Dragons. (only Zhaitan at release. And whether you *can* kill them..no one knows..)
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
That made me laugh.
Anyway, I personally never thought of "winning" in an MMO. I think there are temporary victories that go with the specific game like downing the Lich King or something like that, but to win there has to be a loser, and in PvP especially, victories are only as long as the opponent lets them be. PvE content can be exhausted, so if you want to consider that a win, if that works for you, you won. Personally, I feel like I've lost if I have nothing more to do in an MMO... I like them because they don't have an ending.
From what I gather the OP is asking what do you win as you journey through the game, not how do you win (beat) the game. What do you "win" in PvP or in PvE that helps further your advancement in the game. He is looking for an answer to how do you make your character stronger thereby helping the team...I think
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Winning is an isolated thing in MMO's, winning in one form is hitting the loot lottery. Another form would be winning a PVP skirmish, guild war or match.
This is winning in an MMO, in some ways any MMORPG is a representation of life in a online world. Winning in life is always an isolated thing, you don't always win, sometimes there's nothing to win, such is the way of the MMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In the case of GW2, you won't be able to "get better" by looting epic pants, you make your character stronger by playing the game and understanding the mechanics and skills. If that's what OP was looking for.
What a strange question... I can't remember if I ever played a computer game to "win it". I mean, I play TF2 matches to "win" but I don't play TF2 as a game to win. What would consititute "winning" even a highly competetive game such as TF2? What? Winning some super world tournament or something? But that's winning a tournament, not winning the game.
I mean, how can you "win" a computer game? Maybe you mean, complete it in some way? But what would constitute "completing" a game - see all its content? But what if there is limitless content, as in PvP games where other players provide the challenge... And why you shouldn't revisit the content you like with, for example, another character... "win the game"... what does this mean? I honestly don't understand.
I play computer games for all kinds of reasons, but to "win the game" is not one of them.
What a strange, strange question...
I am pretty sure he is talking about PVP..i think he is.
I don't think so:
"IN other mmos i have played it was easy to see winning, especially the real play to win games. Runes of magic i won when i had tons of defense for my armor. In Rift when i reached level 50 and had tier 3 armor. But I don'[t see the winning aspect of GW2."
Maybe by "winning the game" he means "to collect all the top gear in the game." Maybe that is what he is thinking about. What a strange, strange person...
No offense OP but it saddens me how brainwashed people have become by the carrot on a stick / treadmill. It's almost as if players these days have complete tunnel vision due to the blinders modern mmo design places on people... and when those blinders are removed to show a range of possibilities, people simply don't know what to do with themselves.
Create your character, enter another world, forge their story, have fun.
BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.
Pretty sure he is talking about everything except PvP (structured in GW2 that is).
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
+1
Read the OPs questions and not just the title.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Oki, maybe I jumped the gun up there.. he does follow with this
"I think of this question because itssomething we joke about in tabletop dungeons and dragons. I run across a new player oncee a year who builds this broken character, and we have to explain how he's not playing against the other people but with them, so it doesnt matter how powerful his character is, it has to be able to work well with others. So long as everyone has a chance to shine in dungeons and dragons, all players are considered winning. I assumed this to be the case in guild wars 2."
Yes, OP. That's what many people hope for GW2... including devs, according to their statements.
In recent years the mmo as defined by WoW has become somewhat of a rat race, "munchkinism" we used to call it back in the D&D days and used to laugh at people who thought that they can "win" at D&D and use it to prove their worth and compensate for RL failings instead of simply enjoying the story, adventure and hanging out with friends.
It's my sincerest hope that GW2 will manage to finally bring that real PnP RPG feel to the mmos. Sadly, not many mmorpgs have done that (or even tried.) They based their mechanics on the PnP games but almost completely ignored their spirit.
nobody though about using the cash shop yet?
I think if you change the wording of the OP's initial question, it is a fair one. Discard for a moment, the term "winning," and ask instead, what do you do when you have achieved the end result of the game? How do you progress when you reach the end?
So, you start at level one. It should be fun, you play to progress through the achievments, the levels, to have fun. There is a sense of achievement and progression, and everything is new as you learn to play your character both in pvp and pve. The thing is, for many people, progression is part of the fun. Fun and progression is not mutually exclusive, they can complement each other, even if they are not one in the same for everyone.
Saying "fun" is vague. Of course it should be fun.
But to say "I played EQ for 7 years for fun" is being a bit disineguous. There were loads of achievements to do, though quite grindy IMHO. Crafting took forever. Levelling took much longer in the early days of EQ than it does for pretty much any game now. In those years there were three expansions, and to be fair there, GW2 will almost certainly have as many, maybe more epxansions than EQ did in the same span of time. Raids were in their infancy, but many enjoyed them. They were much less structured than they are now.
But people will level quickly in GW2 I suspect, and they will flatten out their gear quite quickly. They are then left with the achievement runs, for the sake of fun, and crafting, which by all accounts, even positive ones at this point, pretty shallow. That's cool, I am not knocking it. I am looking forward to it, even the crafting (I like easy crafting to be honest).
But then comes the WvWvW focus. The only progression here is really bragging rights for your server. If strong communities are not developed, that won't even mean anything to most. There is nothing else but doing WvW for fun. Period. That's even fine, great even.
The thing is, many people (myself included) want this to be a game that will fill that void of not having a game we can play for a year or more. But people will, as far as I can tell, max out their achievements in game fairly quickly, and be left to "have fun," but to do so without any real achievement besides that--fun.
Again, that's cool, but that does not sound much different from the end of SWTOR to me. People played through the content available, and then there were....well, done. (Please note, I am not comparing this two games to each other in any way, other than this lack of anything to do at the end, save for repeating WvWvW--I guess even SWTOR did not have that).
I guess what I am saying, is that as much as I am looking forward to this game, I am doubting it will be that game I am looking for to fill the niche of a game I can play for months...maybe years.
Will I play? Hell yes. Am I excited? Again, hell yes. I am not even worried about the cash shop.
Will I get my money's worth? I imagine so.
But do I see WVWvW keeping my attention for months...sadly, not really.
GW2 has gone from a being a game I wanted to play for a long while to a time filler until the elusive game I waiting for comes out...if it ever does.
I don't think he is even implying end game. I think he is talking individual quests/pve/pvp "wins". What do you wint to help to make you stronger to help your self or your team.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I win every time someone complements the way I play.
This is not a game.
I'm surprised a Tabletop player asks such a question, especially one who is clearly recognizing how Tabletops are about coop, instead of competition.
Anyway, (MMO) RPGs are not meant to win. They are meant to live a character story. The only winning part is in combats, and I think that GW2 suggests far more ways to win a combat than other current MMOs :
- deeper, trickier skill optimization
- limited skill list to chose before fighting
- solo winning
- coop winning (class combos)
Speaking of class combos, I can't wait to see how old hardcore mmo pvp veterans will show the world incredible ways to win with a full coordinated group.
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i'll be "winning" by getting 100% world completion.
I've got the straight edge.
I agree with a lot of what has already been said.
You don't really play MMORPG PvE to "win". Just as the OP said re: D&D, GW2 PvE doesn't have to be about min-maxing the most powerful character, it's about building and playing a character in a way that matches your play style and is appropriate for the challenges you will be facing. You can play the game solo, in which case character builds and play strategy are very personal. However, the game rewards cooperative play and people who play that way will be better suited with builds and strategies that work well cooperatively with others. Most certainly, for Dungeon content, having a character and playstyle that support other members of your group and are appropriate for the challenges the game presents are much, much more important that having the "most powerful character" possible.
The way the gear progression works in game, there will not be much advantage to be had via gear when comparing characters of the same level and once you reach the level cap, aquiring max stat gear, while requiring some effort, will not be a long, tedious persuit, nor will there be an endless gear progression with greater and greater gear being introduced on a regular basis.
In WvW, yes, your server can win, or lose, the two week war vs. two other servers, but from the perspective of the individual player, working well with others from your server will be more important than your raw level of power.
For Competative PvP, there are more opportunities to "win", either winning a match, winning a tournament or even winning a season of formal, ladder based play. Even here, the best teams will be those that find group builds that work well together, played by players that play well together. There is no gear advantage in CPVP, from grinding or any other mechanism. Experience, skill, brains, dexterity and cooperation will all be important factors for those looking to win at formal CPVP. (Note, however, that there will be casual matches in CPVP, you don't have to enter formal torunaments to enjoy GW2 CPVP).
For general PvE, there will be things to achieve, for those who enjoy achievments, but most are completely optional and matter only as much as you decide they matter.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
I don't mean this to be a silly question, its seriously something I don't now. I keep reading people say Pay to win or buy to win. I need to know what is "winning". I feel there's some major disconnect between what I have read about GW2 and what others believe it is. If I can do something to win, it must mean that I can win. So I am asking, particuarlly from people who believe the game is play2win, what exactly is winning.
My reason for asking this is to figure out the thinking that makes someone say "this is pay to win". With so many pages of why this game is pay to win, I want to know what is winning, from both sides, what will happen to make u "win" the game.
As Kramer said, "You just blew my mind"! lol In that term winning is using the items in a cash shop to your own advantage over others.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Pay2win is some kind of troll shortcut reference to the Cash Shop, where you can indirectly buy equipment by several levels of transactions between what you buy in the shop, and what you can exchange it for in the end. But it's just a misconception and a lack of education about what the cash shop really offers (or what you can buy with gold) compared to what you can really earn in high level content.
There's no such thing as Pay2Win in GW2. Pay2Win would be the case where you can buy something with real money that would give you a clear advantage over an enemy. This model is more commonly tied to F2P, or "Free To Play", especially with casual games (appstore, etc).
With GW2 cash shop the best advantage you can indirectly earn would be the equivalent of what a gold farmer in WoW would buy. Cosmetics and subpar stuff.
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