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Guild War 2 Might Cost you more than you think
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so how will you prevent me to pay a chinese guy to level for me 24/7 and i beat you to max level...i'm so cool yeah...any mmo is p2w if you look at it this way
man read what you write you sound like you are 5, who cares if you will be max level 3 days before me, it makes no difference at all
The advantage is only to you and the one you decided to compete with. That's a personal challenge you have with your friend. If you think it's win to be the first at 80, again that's your thing. Don't generalize it to everyone else. We call make 'bets' or challenges in any game and some will always have an advantge over others especially like those who can play more than those who can't. Still not P2W.
As for the red part....seriously? A hardcore crafter, lol that's a first for me.
No, I'm saying that if ArenaNet can't make their money on just box sales with account wide cash shop options, don't nickel-and-dime us. Costumes and dyes, should be account wide. Bank storage is only because system is designed this way. Bank portals and transumution stones are again limited. If ArenaNet can't make the money on box sales, I'd rather box sale and sub than the inevitable change in game design that will come trying to make more and more players use the store.
I'm no packrat, but until you play through 80 levels, don't claim storage is just fine in the game - you dont know this. And I am not aware of anyone that got to level 80 in the BWE weekend.
Also, if you think the cash shop isn't going to effect game design, just look at the following already as examples:
1.) Why suddenly are the dyes character only? I can't get a dye bottle to share among characters? I can't have an account wide when I find it? Since the dye bottles are all blue, how do I know what color "Sour" is when I mouse over it? Easy, because we want to drive you to the store or have you stick with default colors (even though dyes were one of the biggest part of GW1). So I paid $80 for a game where I can't get the dye colors on my whole game? And when I get them, they don't apply to my whole game, just one character?
2.) Storage.... let's go back to the dyes. I played for five hours on the first Friday of the BWE and got six dye drops in that time. However, I can only get one dye color in a 24 hour period (this is totally stupid). I can accelerate that with a flower (again stupid), but in the meantime, with dyes dropping lke that is going to eat up a lot of storage waiting to get these dye flowers processed at one per day. Again, this is also done on purpose to fill the storage.
3.) Character Slots - Sure we get five. But almost every game gives one per class... we get one per race?!? Want to play each class, then spend another thirty bucks (on top of the eighty you just spent) to get to do that.
4.) Leveling - A big contention of feedback on the BWE was constantly being behind in levels even after you did everything in an area and feeling as if having to grind events over-and-over to get high enough in level to move on. I contend this wasn't by accident, it is intentional with XP accelerators available in the store. Want to avoid going from Level 1 to 80 without having to stop and grind the same events over and over.
So, before you comment, until you reach end game and can make your statement with fact... they are just as much speculation as anything here. However, what I mentioned above is ALREADY in the last BWE. So, no, I understood it just fine, I have been through both sub based and F2P based MMOs and, at the end of the day, they make a difference in how the game design will be influenced going forward. GW1 had it right, GW2 has it wrong - plain as that.
And yet, they already have tried and the game isn't released yet. They stated (with 400 something dye colors available) that unlocking dyes would be account wide, but in the BWE they are character only? Why, plain and simple, better cash options. Also, they make the dyes random so it is like buying collectibles looking for the one rare.
You can argue that you don't need to buy the dyes, and this is true. The point I am trying to make, however, is the design of the dye system is based around the intentions of the store, not the game. And this kind of design intention and creep will continue to get worse as time moves on. Unless ArenaNet is different that any other game that has a cash shop.
I'm not arguing against the cash shop, I am saying that the artificial limitations (character only versus account wide) are very obvious cash grabs that will effect how content will be designed going forward.
BTW, this tin-foil hat business model has been tried and perfected by EA. This business model also got them voted Worst Company in America. Funny that. huh? Likewise, Turbine was once considered a great MMO company, now they are considered, by many, to be money-grabbing bottom feeders... hmmm, cash shop worked well there too.
DLC on day one of a game release anyone?
I would like to point you at World of Warcraft. A game that has developers who are able to populate the cash shop with lots of fluffies and develop new content and expansions as a full time job.
How much work goes into a cash shop item:
Mini pet - The model and animations already exist in the game. All they need to do is reduce the size, put the model/animation onto a pre-programmed "host" pet, and you have yourself a new pet ready to sell. Couple of hours max to set it up, a few weeks of in game testing and you have a salable item for the cash shop.
Costumes - The model and animations are most liekly already in game. If not get an artist to knock something up in his free time. Graft it onto an existing costume, add some fun abilities and you have a new costume. Couple of hours, a few weeks of in game testing.
Scrolls/potions - The buffs are already there, just assign them to an item you can mail/sell.
Sorry but Cash shop content is easy money. A.Net's staff are given free reign on their creativity so I'm betting they have a million and one ideas all ready for deployment when they need to add some new stuff. Also, I would be incredably surprised if they didn't have a few "extras" ready for deployment already, 5+ years of development must have seen them come up with a ton of costumes and models that can be used.
In game testing could be as simple as an in game CSR/GM or on the test realms.
With your idea of time management I think i'll pass on any investment deals you offer. People are able to have several projects on the go at once and proffesional people know how to prioritise.
1. I think the dyes might be a bug, not sure.
2. you were VERY lucky.. I played for about 30 hrs, my huband the same and together we only got 12. Sure we will end up with extra seeds and if we are impatient we will buy plant food... no one is forcing this however. You can also grow 1 seed a day per char. so you get 4-6 per day(yes most likely 5 but they have not said that we get 5 chars 100%) and you can sell extras.
3. Actually we don't know for a fact that we get 5 but we probably will.. char slots are something that is pretty much needed there. You do not need one of each prof.. I know in WoW I had all max 80s and hated half of them. So they were just max lvl mules.
4. You are very wrong here.. the ONLY area I heard this from was human. Norn and Char because they are close together and perhaps more fleshed out with events I was never the same lvl as what I was doing. I was only under the few times I went to the high lvl area of the zone I was in skipping the lower part. There is no reason to be max lvl right away.. this isn't a game where you OMG NEED TO BE MAX LVL TO DO END GAME ZOMG TIER GRIND!
And when did WoW introduce the cash shop? Could it perhaps coincide with their dropping of subscription numbers?
No, Norn too. Can't speak for Charr since I only did Human and Norn. By the time you did the raven and snow leapord stuff you were about level 3 or 4. Bear was up next... and what level was that? - 6! Got hit with the event there with about 10-12 people and more than three-quarters of them died. Most Norn I was in area with keep running the snow leapord hunting and raven riddle events over and over until they got to level 6... real exciting.
Then you crossed the water and did the same cave over and over again (grabbing food, bringing it back, then defending it) until you could move on once again. I saw quite a few comments about grind the Shaman's cave repeatedly and that XP was a bit off.
Just because there is a Cash Shop doesn't mean that every decision made by the Developers are because of the Cash Shops. You can blame everything on it, but you can't generalize it to everyone else.
Lets say that they don't have a cash shop then will you accept that you will have to grind dyes for every separate character, that you will always only have 5 characters slots, you will always have to grind some events over and over.
Who do you blame now?
If a game only offers you 4 bag slots, 5 characters , and dyes per character, does it make them evil. Its their developement decision, they said 4 slots 5 characters, and thats that. You don't like it then don't play it. They aren't making you do anything you don't want. Really how hard is that to get through, its not a game you need to play to go through life. Its not a game you need to play to succeed in life or to eat or walk or talk. Its just a freaking game.
Its a game that they are making with some convenient items in their Cash Shops that you never have to touch, you will never have to use, they got gems that you can buy with in game money that you earn just by doing events, killing mobs.
If you feel you need to use it, then use it, if you don't feel like you need it then don't use it, if you feel like its bleeding you dry with nickle and dimes then don't play it, if you don't like Cash Shops then don't use it.
If Cash Shops make you not want to play GW2, then don't play GW2....how the hell is that so hard to understand.
If Cash Shops in the long run ruins GW2, then I go and play some other games, I owe nothing to Anet, and Anet owes nothing to me. They want me to play, they don't put P2W items, They put P2W items, I don't play. Easy as that, why is CS such a huge problem to people.
I pay $150 for collector editions of SWTOR, I played 3 month, then I quit, no one died because of this, the world didn't end because i decided not to play SWTOR. It just ended up not being the game I wanted to play. So whats the big deal???
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
then you were not exploring and doing events because I was easily 2-3 lvl above what I was doing.. as Norn
There is no Grind, just by walking around the cities, you are gaining experience, just by randomly killing beasts you come across you are gaining EXP.
If you were just gonna do one quest then move on, without following the chains, then yes you will be underlevel. But thats the way you want to play. Even as Human and Norn I was able to outlevel the mobs fairly quickly once I decided to explore the region and do the quests. I only did two chain events, and already I was level 7.
You play the way you want, if you feel that there is Grind and its not your game, then don't play, really !! whats so important to like a game and that make you have to play it. Does someone somewhere dies if you don't like a game.
Is the world's salvation depends on everyone playing GW2 and liking every aspects of it. I just really don't understand it, I like a game, I play the game, I don't like the game, I don't play the game. Its a very very easy concept.
Just because you feel its a grind, doesn't make it a grind to everyone else. I didn't grind, and I out level the area, you grind and you out level the area. I enjoy my BWE, you didn't. Do I care if you like it, nope, do i care if you know I like the game, NOPE.
Discussing about aspects is okay, but when the discussion goes toward of speculations and whether or not it will make someone like the game then its going way off course. Because no one cares if anyone else likes the game, its more about the principles of Cash Shop, and none of the principles of Cash Shop for GW2 needs any discussion.
Discussions about game play and mechanics and where to get materials, how to more efficiently utilize your time is a much better discussion topic.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Considering the way DEs work I wouldn't be suprised if both of you are correct in your observations. It isn't like they're constant so it is entirely possible one could go through a lull in finding them while another could experience an abundance of them.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I'm going to reply to your original post as well as several of the continuations. In my original post I mentioned that you can see what Blizzard's costs were in their quarterly reports on their websites. I just checked there again for real numbers to use as examples and can no longer find those reports. Either the reports are buried or are no longer being listed on their website. So I am going to have to go by memory. If anyone still has access to the real reports and wants to correct me, feel free.
The information I was looking at was 4 quarterly reports from around Q2 2010 to Q1 2011... IE they covered the release of the Cataclysm expansion. What struck me was that the income from Blizzard's non P2W cash shop was roughly equivalent to the amount that Blizzard received from their subscription fees, and that BOTH the subscription fees AND the cash shop revenue was approximately 15x greater than total (non advertising) operating costs. This pattern was consistent across all 4 quarters.
If that pattern is at all representative of human nature, it shows that it is quite reasonable for anyone to expect that there will be more than enough people willing to buy cosmetic/convenience only perks to give ANet a quite respectable profit stream with no subscription fees.
As an aside, the revenues from selling Cataclysm alone would support Blizzard's existing (non-advertising) operating expenses for YEARS. So yeah, assuming any decent sales of the GW2 box client (and given how much this game is anticipated atm I think it is a fair assumption that GW2 will sell well) ANet could indeed keep the servers running for quite some time on the box sales alone. Am I mad that ANet has decided to put in a cash shop on top of that?
Hell no. Why?
Because ANet should be able to maintain enough of a profit with the cash shop to internally fund their NEXT project. Which will allow them to keep being creative and innovative with the games they make. I would not be at all surprised to discover that the GW1 cash shop is the reason why GW2 isn't a WoW clone. Which is good for me because I personally would not buy or play GW2 if it was a WoW clone.
Actually the frequency seemed to be increased for Beta which may have been for testing reasons. But what has been happening is you have 2 types of people.
Type 1) Simply went to the hearts and hung out there
Type 2) explored around and found a variety of DE's.
I was among the Type 2 group.
Much of the complaints about doing the same thing over and over come from the type 1 group.
Without quests to lead you through the game many are latching on to the heart hubs as all there is in the game.
I was also grp 2, there is a lot of xp to be had completing the map (skill pts, waypts ect)
By the way, I disagree with your assertion that some topics are better than others to discuss about a game. As long as the topic being discussed in fact DOES relate directly to a game and how it is being run it provides valuable feedback to smart developers and companies who try to get a feel for what their audience wants/expects.
This is exactly the same principle as 'every vote counts'. If people do not express clearly what they want/expect, any company is just guessing at what they have to do to meet their customer's needs and earn their money. The simple fact that this thread is now up to 40+ pages so fast should be a clear warning sign to ANet that they have to tread vary carefully with their cash shop.
Please note: I am not trying to be partisan for either side here. I like so far what ANet has been presenting about their game, but have not prepurchased it yet.
I'll answer your question with a question.
What does WoW's cash shop have to do with GW2's cash shop? And when did subscription numbers in wow ever drop low enough for them to alter their business model?
A drop in subscription numbers and the amount of content don't correlate. WoW's content has been at an ever steady pace since TBC and their subscription levels have been all over the place.
The paid services were born during vanilla when they started allowing paid character migrations. The blizz store was started when blizzard realised they could make money from selling mini pets and mounts, this was because of the trading card pets/mounts that sold on ebay for hundreds of dollars. Spectral Tiger was bought for £900 by an old guild member of mine, blizzard wasn't going to miss out on that action. The first mini pet's were made available during early WotlK, they proved both popular and profitable so blizzard expanded the blizz store. Last time I checked blizzard made more money from the blizz store than subscriptions, yet they have no single item in there that adds a benefit to a player. They still produce an expansion every 2 years and a major content patch every 6ish months.
Wow's CS and GW2's CS are simular in the fact they don't force purchases and offer items people might want. The major difference is that GW2's CS is built into the game and all items in there can be bought with in game currency.
Lastly I would like to know why you decided to comment on my choice of example game instead of trying to refute the points i made in my post. The point you seemed to be trying to make was an irrelevant one and badly thought out in regards to the thread topic.
The big question here is why people are so damn concerned about ArenaNet's ability to run a successful MMO. GW1 has been running for years, it was profitable enough to fund the development of GW2. They did that without forcing people into the cash shop, they did that while also maintaining the servers and producing new in game events and cash shop items. I will go out on a limb here and say that nobody who's posted in this thread is an industry specialist. Let ArenaNet reach the finish line before you start spreading illogical arguments about something which you have no interest in.
I am a sucker for cash shops :-/ But I don't have a huge opinion on them, just that when a game does have one they get a lot of my $$. I am planning on spending more on GW2 than WoW for sure.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
You actually had to state obvious cash grabs? Why not tell us the sun will come up in the morning. It isn't a problem unless they take it too far. So there is a level that is good and acceptable.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I never use cash shops. The game will cost me exactly what it costs. The only way it could cost someone more than they think is if they think they won't buy shit and then they end up buying shit. If you use cash shops, you probably expect to pay cash...in...the....shop...derp.
Ah, ha ha ha ha...
$60. I get five guys. Now, as an alt-o-holic, this is a problem... Because I want all eight. I drop $30. Total cost to be self-indulgent is $90. I'm done buying. Just like GW1.
I play for two years. Total cost is still $90.
Or I play... Big Subscription MMO. LIke GW2 I pay $60. And $15 a month. But a deal for 6 months is $60. So I take it. I'm 22 months in. I've paid for 24 months, plus my 'free' month. I quit. JUST LIKE MY LAST LONG-TERM MMO. I have $30 of sub I'll never use. I've dropped $240 in subs, $60 on the box.
$90 vs $300 (of which I didn't even get full value of)... Yeah, i'm going to rage quit GW2 because ANet is exploiting me! Down with the man! Free love!
Or not... Because, frankly, $90 is a sweet deal for two years worth of first class, AAA, not-pay-to-win MMO.
Guild Wars 2 Will cost you nothing besides box price and thats a fact:)
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I do. And I have friends like that too. But we played LOTRO for a long time. And due to LOTRO's hyper-specilization needs in many raids... You need a full-fellowship if you're hard-core and want to be able to ensure you can participate in any raid at any time in any class...
Still, I more friends with just 1 or 2 or 3 characters... The all-classes-alt-club was fairly small... And were, definately, not in the majority...
There was a picture of the bank a page up in the thread. It looked pretty much like the old GW1 bank. I was a heavy, heavy hoarder and crafter in GW1. In the vault you have a 'collections' section where your crafting and some of ther materials go:
Crafting Mats
Cooking Mats
Mini-pets
Collectibles
PvP rewards (by armor type)
Library items
I never filled my vault. I would, on occassion, have more crafting mats in a stack than was allowed and they'd over-flow into the main vault. But it took huge amounts.