2. of course people will pay for it, that is implied. Like I said the VAST majority of what can be done in this technology is not being done so there really dosent exist any baseline to proove other than not being moronic. killing trolls all day is not the only thing people are willing to pay money for and I am willing to bet people would pay money for a game that contains a series of features EXCEPT killing trolls.
1. This is an MMO forum, specifically for talking about MMOs. It should have been obvious. The fact is, people who play The Sims and people who play MMOs are two entirely different groups and what applies to one doesn't necessarily apply to the other.
Let us know when you can.
I don't see any evidence substantiating the claim that "of course people will pay for it". In fact, developers, especially Blizz is very atuned to what is popular feature and what is not.
Features like LFD/LFR .. asked for by many, used by many are implemented and becoming standard now. There are new features like that every day. Phasing, OTOH, has some but not great success so developers are still evaluating how to use it.
So the fact that housing has been tried, and not becoming standard, is pretty good evidence that the demand is not that great, at least no where close to the popularity of a LFD/LFR system.
I have played four games with housing and for those who have a hard time extrapolating between single player features and MMO features I will seperate them accordingly.
single player: Sims and Skyrim
MMO: EQ2 and Darkfall
In Skyrim, EQ2 and Darkfall housing is to be completely frank nearly silly. I would in no way think that those 3 games represent what is really possible with housing and I am someone who (to be frank) has ZERO intrest in housing but I am also not naive enough to think that what has been done in those 3 games is anywhere near what is possible
In other words, you have no evidence. All you are saying is that housing wasn't done right before.
You still have no evidence that it will do well if done right. I will grant you that it is an unknown.
Of course housing will do well if "done right", considering the definition of "done right" being used is done in such a way that the majority of people both use and appreciate it. The real question is how is housing "done right"? What features would housing need and how would they be implemented for housing to be "done right"?
fact 2: list of features people like about the sims.
extroplate 1: take features from fact 2 and put them online. specific features in question do not change AT ALL.
TRIED .. FAILED in SIMS ONLINE
Fact 3: game play? EXACTLY the same except that people talk to each other.
thus its logically to suggest that because people like housing in a single player game that if you take the EXACT features and UNCHANGE THEM that in an online world the experience will be the same because for the most part its the exact same demographic.
Isn't what they did for SIMS ONLINE .. take SIMS features and put them online.
again.
The position you personally are taking is this.
People like all the features of the sims as long as someone doesnt talk to them online. Once that is added in then they dislike all the features.
That is your position and your reason for it is because the Sims online failed. Well fine enough if that is the position you feal 100% comfortable with then you will be the guy who believes that. I for one am not that guy.
Now, aside from that why is Second Life such a hit?
Ironically you touched on something in this post that stands a bit true, my wife played the sims online for a little bit and her reason for quitting as well as what I had read from others to quit was that the community was horrible (I had seen some of it but didn't pay much attention to it) and while rated x-xxx conversation etc. might work in a game like second life it really isn't good for a game like the sims which has far too young an audience to be subjected to alot of the things I saw going on in the sims online and second life.
I'm kind of on the late show so not exactly sure who is on what side of the argument but I feel confident saying the sims online failure didn't have anything to do with whether or not housing works in an mmo as a matter of fact I can recall a bit of chatter and suprise that EA was even shutting the sims online down without trying to fix any of the issues they were facing and pushing forward.
Minecraft is more or less an MMO. It has persistent worlds and buildable houses, why has no one mentioned how wildly popular that is? I think that stands as evidence that people do want housing and creative license in MMO's.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
My house in Star Wars Galaxies. Best mmorpg ever made.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Yeah, my cribbo in SWG was absolutely killer, lived in a Tatooine guild hall. in UO was a different story, had a small shack in the middle of the woods in Fel. Crazy adventure and awesome games, the both of them.
Now could you imagine a MMO that implemented the type of creative play you get with Minecraft, but instead it was a real persistaent state world with thousands of players. Would be cray-zee!
------- Check out my side project http://lfger.com/ - a mobile lfg tool for any game, any time. -------
Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by DannyGloverA good test will be Rift's expansion. They are adding player housing. It will be interesting to see if that game's population grows and how much positive feedback comes from the feature.
I agree. I remember early on when a group of players asked about housing the response from Hartsman and the dev team seemed to be that they didn't value the idea of housing at all. They really trashed and poo-pah'd it. I thought this was such an odd answer considering the success of housing in EQ2 and SWG and that some of the team had worked at SoE.
One thing about Trion though is they do try and deliver what their fans want and so I'm curious if they can make a decent housing system if they don't value it. Will they bring in developers who do and know how to make it? Maybe there are people on the team who do value that sort of thing and didn't speak out on housing in the earlier Q&A. Hartsman has said they have assembled a very good team and I believe it.
This will be a test in my opinion. They don't have to get it perfect the first time (they rarely do), but they can't drop the ball with it if it needs improvement.
Also your SWG house looks nice.
I'll resub to check out Rifts player housing. I also look forward to AoC's crafting overhaul (speaking of themeparks getting some sandbox love).
Oh and thanks for the compliment on the house. Placed all those items with a lot of time and care. The other room is a polearm museum
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
A good test will be Rift's expansion. They are adding player housing. It will be interesting to see if that game's population grows and how much positive feedback comes from the feature.
I have re-subbed to Rift simply because of the housing. Housing will build a diverse community. MMo's thrive on diversity. If there isn't enough diversity a game becomes boring.
Interesting info on Rift. I hadn't heard that, not one I follow much.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
IMO VG housing is extremely limited. Yes you can decorate it, but you only have a few styles of actual houses to choose from. Give me a combination of Istaria and EQ2. Istaria for the open world and literally hundreds of structures to build, and EQ2 for the ability to decorate with anything and even build the house itself using brick and board. I'm currently building a monster castle.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
As a SWG player, I found that the majority of my time in-game was spent searching for mobs that drop items I haven't seen before, solely to display them in my house.
If other games have such low numbers in people that actually mess with it (and I have an *extremely* hard time believing poster #3 is directly involved in any kind of studio, rather than talking out of his ass), then it's because their take on housing is half-assed, and no more than a glorified storage unit with little in the way of customization. A.K.A., LotRO housing... and basically anything else out there post-SWG glory days (besides Wurm, which does it right as well).
Seriously, very few games past UO and SWG take the concept seriously, and just aim at the bare-minimum in order to say they have it as a feature. It becomes trite, and nobody messes with it.
^ Agreed
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
A good test will be Rift's expansion. They are adding player housing. It will be interesting to see if that game's population grows and how much positive feedback comes from the feature.
I have re-subbed to Rift simply because of the housing. Housing will build a diverse community. MMo's thrive on diversity. If there isn't enough diversity a game becomes boring.
Too late, should had been in at launch I won't resub to that game it is sooooo 2011... no thanks.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Where it's a bad thing ? It's a solo-only feature that consumes some vital space in a group-oriented genre.
Why is it solo only? In SWG, I shared a house with another player. We had a large house on Naboo and lived near a player city which, since it took a gorup of players to build, was also not solo. My structures were almost always open to the public so people wandering the wilds could walk in, use the vendors, check out the decoration, etc. As a merchant, I set up some good relationships with repeat customers that way.
Now, I could certainly make structures private, and in the case of my "crafting workshop" house, I did. But, the option for it to be solo and the mandate that it is solo are two different things. Thats like me choosing to quest solo or grouping up with a buddy to do quests. Really, housing can be a social tool just like anything else, but, as many have stated, it needs to be designed with such goals in mind
edit: saw you added "It's like requesting an Angry Bird minigame in WoW : It can be done, and some people will enjoy it, but it's not a priority at all." and couldn't resist.
Angry Birds might not make it, but plenty of room for Plants vs Zombies eh? (http://youtu.be/aWI5XTmGrmo long video, but you get the point)
It's a "solo" feature because no one cares about people's virtual house
(except very rare and ponctual exceptions)
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
Where it's a bad thing ? It's a solo-only feature that consumes some vital space in a group-oriented genre.
Why is it solo only? In SWG, I shared a house with another player. We had a large house on Naboo and lived near a player city which, since it took a gorup of players to build, was also not solo. My structures were almost always open to the public so people wandering the wilds could walk in, use the vendors, check out the decoration, etc. As a merchant, I set up some good relationships with repeat customers that way.
Now, I could certainly make structures private, and in the case of my "crafting workshop" house, I did. But, the option for it to be solo and the mandate that it is solo are two different things. Thats like me choosing to quest solo or grouping up with a buddy to do quests. Really, housing can be a social tool just like anything else, but, as many have stated, it needs to be designed with such goals in mind
edit: saw you added "It's like requesting an Angry Bird minigame in WoW : It can be done, and some people will enjoy it, but it's not a priority at all." and couldn't resist.
Angry Birds might not make it, but plenty of room for Plants vs Zombies eh? (http://youtu.be/aWI5XTmGrmo long video, but you get the point)
It's a "solo" feature because no one cares about people's virtual house
(except very rare and ponctual exceptions)
You are wrong and it has already been explained why. SWG is the best example to show a housing implementation with practical and social value. Saying it is a solo feature is short sighted and willfully ignoring the past. This is not to say there are not implementations out there that aren't solo. If you want to say a specific implementation is solo oriented, then sure, but housing as a feature is not inherently solo.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Anyway....no one can change my mind about housing being important for ME. I know most young kids playing games now don't care at all about it, which is fine. I go with the flow to keep gaming, BUT....I will never be as committed to a game that does not give me my own personal space to grow and build. That's just me, but it's 100 PERCENT me. Housing in a game makes the game more robust to me and makes me more apt to continue to be a part of said game as well.
Every feature is important to someone. There are people who want permanant death as adamante as you want your housing.
The real question is how many are there out there like you? Obviously since dev is not paying attention to this feature, there are not many.
I never SAID that I thought "many" people felt the way I do. I was simply stating my own personal opinion. In fact, that's all any of these posts are, personal opinion.
my view is developers statements of players not being intrested in Housing and refering to housing as not really part of the game is completely based on housing features that are extreemly limited in whats possible and this is coming from a person who really dosent even like housing.
So many things are possible including (and not limited to) crafting workshops, actual shops. Say for example you are crafting XYZ but you need to make a specific part but that specific part can ONLY be made from housing with an X type crafting station. Now you as a crafter you find yourself running around visiting houses while also getting your motorcycle built.
Same for stores. Maybe custom poitions can only come from player houses with a certian kind of poition shop etc.
ideas a limitless but they are basing their view on people not caring that much about a mantle for trophies
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
my view is developers statements of players not being intrested in Housing and refering to housing as not really part of the game is completely based on housing features that are extreemly limited in whats possible and this is coming from a person who really dosent even like housing.
So many things are possible including (and not limited to) crafting workshops, actual shops. Say for example you are crafting XYZ but you need to make a specific part but that specific part can ONLY be made from housing with an X type crafting station. Now you as a crafter you find yourself running around visiting houses while also getting your motorcycle built.
Same for stores. Maybe custom poitions can only come from player houses with a certian kind of poition shop etc.
ideas a limitless but they are basing their view on people not caring that much about a mantle for trophies
I agree with you. The trophy rack house is something that has limited appeal for me, but for its other more practica uses (even as an extra bank) I think housing is great. I would love to see a game that actually registered effects for the type of house/furniture. Diplomacy only at its best in a Courthouse, engineering in a lab, selling in a shop, etc.
my view is developers statements of players not being intrested in Housing and refering to housing as not really part of the game is completely based on housing features that are extreemly limited in whats possible and this is coming from a person who really dosent even like housing.
So many things are possible including (and not limited to) crafting workshops, actual shops. Say for example you are crafting XYZ but you need to make a specific part but that specific part can ONLY be made from housing with an X type crafting station. Now you as a crafter you find yourself running around visiting houses while also getting your motorcycle built.
Same for stores. Maybe custom poitions can only come from player houses with a certian kind of poition shop etc.
ideas a limitless but they are basing their view on people not caring that much about a mantle for trophies
I agree with you. The trophy rack house is something that has limited appeal for me, but for its other more practica uses (even as an extra bank) I think housing is great. I would love to see a game that actually registered effects for the type of house/furniture. Diplomacy only at its best in a Courthouse, engineering in a lab, selling in a shop, etc.
great example could be:
'hey guys do you know anyone with a motorcycle garage? I finally got all my parts made now I just have to put it together'
yeah thats right, I said craft a motorcyle and look for a house with a motorsport garage.
That is starting to think out of the box for a change.
ADDED:
reply could be
'yeah you know the Gypsy clan? well they are down by the RV park in Riverville but you have to catch them because they might move their RV homes to the sector 12'
I always thought it would be cool to make RV housing in Fallen Earth
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I agree with you. The trophy rack house is something that has limited appeal for me, but for its other more practica uses (even as an extra bank) I think housing is great. I would love to see a game that actually registered effects for the type of house/furniture. Diplomacy only at its best in a Courthouse, engineering in a lab, selling in a shop, etc.
That's actually a really cool idea. Players would need to decide what the main purpose of their "house" was. If you wanted to sell things, you could only have a shop and it must be located in a "merchant area". It would give you a bonus on crafting/selling. It should give you a penalty on something else. There could be a lot of different types of "houses", each one with bonuses and penalties and each one found only in particular districts. If you wanted something without any bonuses or penalties, you could buy a regular house, in a residential district, and be able to do what you want, but not be able to sell, etc. from it.
I agree with you. The trophy rack house is something that has limited appeal for me, but for its other more practica uses (even as an extra bank) I think housing is great. I would love to see a game that actually registered effects for the type of house/furniture. Diplomacy only at its best in a Courthouse, engineering in a lab, selling in a shop, etc.
That's actually a really cool idea. Players would need to decide what the main purpose of their "house" was. If you wanted to sell things, you could only have a shop and it must be located in a "merchant area". It would give you a bonus on crafting/selling. It should give you a penalty on something else. There could be a lot of different types of "houses", each one with bonuses and penalties and each one found only in particular districts. If you wanted something without any bonuses or penalties, you could buy a regular house, in a residential district, and be able to do what you want, but not be able to sell, etc. from it.
Hey thanks, but I took my inspiration from SEANMCAD. I like your further iteration of the idea to be dedicated, that would make it really more unique.
I agree with you. The trophy rack house is something that has limited appeal for me, but for its other more practica uses (even as an extra bank) I think housing is great. I would love to see a game that actually registered effects for the type of house/furniture. Diplomacy only at its best in a Courthouse, engineering in a lab, selling in a shop, etc.
That's actually a really cool idea. Players would need to decide what the main purpose of their "house" was. If you wanted to sell things, you could only have a shop and it must be located in a "merchant area". It would give you a bonus on crafting/selling. It should give you a penalty on something else. There could be a lot of different types of "houses", each one with bonuses and penalties and each one found only in particular districts. If you wanted something without any bonuses or penalties, you could buy a regular house, in a residential district, and be able to do what you want, but not be able to sell, etc. from it.
Hey thanks, but I took my inspiration from SEANMCAD. I like your further iteration of the idea to be dedicated, that would make it really more unique.
I agree, that is pretty damned slick. Would get enclaves of players to specialize their efforts towards use for the whole.
Plus I am a fan of themes when it comes to housing.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Comments
Of course housing will do well if "done right", considering the definition of "done right" being used is done in such a way that the majority of people both use and appreciate it. The real question is how is housing "done right"? What features would housing need and how would they be implemented for housing to be "done right"?
Ironically you touched on something in this post that stands a bit true, my wife played the sims online for a little bit and her reason for quitting as well as what I had read from others to quit was that the community was horrible (I had seen some of it but didn't pay much attention to it) and while rated x-xxx conversation etc. might work in a game like second life it really isn't good for a game like the sims which has far too young an audience to be subjected to alot of the things I saw going on in the sims online and second life.
I'm kind of on the late show so not exactly sure who is on what side of the argument but I feel confident saying the sims online failure didn't have anything to do with whether or not housing works in an mmo as a matter of fact I can recall a bit of chatter and suprise that EA was even shutting the sims online down without trying to fix any of the issues they were facing and pushing forward.
because most mmo players just arent that bothered about player housing.
and people who really dig housing arent playin mmos, they are playing minecraft.
Minecraft is more or less an MMO. It has persistent worlds and buildable houses, why has no one mentioned how wildly popular that is? I think that stands as evidence that people do want housing and creative license in MMO's.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
My house in Star Wars Galaxies. Best mmorpg ever made.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Yeah, my cribbo in SWG was absolutely killer, lived in a Tatooine guild hall. in UO was a different story, had a small shack in the middle of the woods in Fel. Crazy adventure and awesome games, the both of them.
Now could you imagine a MMO that implemented the type of creative play you get with Minecraft, but instead it was a real persistaent state world with thousands of players. Would be cray-zee!
-------
Check out my side project http://lfger.com/ - a mobile lfg tool for any game, any time.
-------
One thing about Trion though is they do try and deliver what their fans want and so I'm curious if they can make a decent housing system if they don't value it. Will they bring in developers who do and know how to make it? Maybe there are people on the team who do value that sort of thing and didn't speak out on housing in the earlier Q&A. Hartsman has said they have assembled a very good team and I believe it.
This will be a test in my opinion. They don't have to get it perfect the first time (they rarely do), but they can't drop the ball with it if it needs improvement.
Also your SWG house looks nice.
I'll resub to check out Rifts player housing. I also look forward to AoC's crafting overhaul (speaking of themeparks getting some sandbox love).
Oh and thanks for the compliment on the house. Placed all those items with a lot of time and care. The other room is a polearm museum
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Vanguard housing is great,everything is player made,from the bricks to the wallpaper every single thing you see in this vid is player made.
It's also non instanced,it's in the open world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gYJSIyp59U
Is it similar to SWG, to where you can drop literally *any* item, target it, then use commands to put it anywhere you want?
The only room in that vid which might even suggest such would be the 'flower room'. The rest was slightly uninspired.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Yes,you can pick up any item and drop,the same goes for your ships which are also player made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5lXH4PIxww
I have re-subbed to Rift simply because of the housing. Housing will build a diverse community. MMo's thrive on diversity. If there isn't enough diversity a game becomes boring.
Interesting info on Rift. I hadn't heard that, not one I follow much.
IMO VG housing is extremely limited. Yes you can decorate it, but you only have a few styles of actual houses to choose from. Give me a combination of Istaria and EQ2. Istaria for the open world and literally hundreds of structures to build, and EQ2 for the ability to decorate with anything and even build the house itself using brick and board. I'm currently building a monster castle.
^ Agreed
Too late, should had been in at launch I won't resub to that game it is sooooo 2011... no thanks.
It's a "solo" feature because no one cares about people's virtual house
(except very rare and ponctual exceptions)
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
You are wrong and it has already been explained why. SWG is the best example to show a housing implementation with practical and social value. Saying it is a solo feature is short sighted and willfully ignoring the past. This is not to say there are not implementations out there that aren't solo. If you want to say a specific implementation is solo oriented, then sure, but housing as a feature is not inherently solo.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I never SAID that I thought "many" people felt the way I do. I was simply stating my own personal opinion. In fact, that's all any of these posts are, personal opinion.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I really miss player housing.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
my view is developers statements of players not being intrested in Housing and refering to housing as not really part of the game is completely based on housing features that are extreemly limited in whats possible and this is coming from a person who really dosent even like housing.
So many things are possible including (and not limited to) crafting workshops, actual shops. Say for example you are crafting XYZ but you need to make a specific part but that specific part can ONLY be made from housing with an X type crafting station. Now you as a crafter you find yourself running around visiting houses while also getting your motorcycle built.
Same for stores. Maybe custom poitions can only come from player houses with a certian kind of poition shop etc.
ideas a limitless but they are basing their view on people not caring that much about a mantle for trophies
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I agree with you. The trophy rack house is something that has limited appeal for me, but for its other more practica uses (even as an extra bank) I think housing is great. I would love to see a game that actually registered effects for the type of house/furniture. Diplomacy only at its best in a Courthouse, engineering in a lab, selling in a shop, etc.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
great example could be:
'hey guys do you know anyone with a motorcycle garage? I finally got all my parts made now I just have to put it together'
yeah thats right, I said craft a motorcyle and look for a house with a motorsport garage.
That is starting to think out of the box for a change.
ADDED:
reply could be
'yeah you know the Gypsy clan? well they are down by the RV park in Riverville but you have to catch them because they might move their RV homes to the sector 12'
I always thought it would be cool to make RV housing in Fallen Earth
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
That's actually a really cool idea. Players would need to decide what the main purpose of their "house" was. If you wanted to sell things, you could only have a shop and it must be located in a "merchant area". It would give you a bonus on crafting/selling. It should give you a penalty on something else. There could be a lot of different types of "houses", each one with bonuses and penalties and each one found only in particular districts. If you wanted something without any bonuses or penalties, you could buy a regular house, in a residential district, and be able to do what you want, but not be able to sell, etc. from it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Hey thanks, but I took my inspiration from SEANMCAD. I like your further iteration of the idea to be dedicated, that would make it really more unique.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I agree, that is pretty damned slick. Would get enclaves of players to specialize their efforts towards use for the whole.
Plus I am a fan of themes when it comes to housing.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture