One problem with that though, Spock, is the potential for pigeon-holing of players again. If you could pick and choose weapon skills there would be some that, for example, only choose healy skills for their staff, or only direct damage skills on their sword. Others may find themselves "required" to take all the control skills they can, or all the mitigation skills they can. The way it is now helps considerably to keep the balance between the professions and minimize the effectiveness of people trying to settle into the archaic "role" system.
Yeah.. I know.
Kind of interesting - wonder how much Anet screwed or maybe not screwed themselves with this approach?
Yet to me seen. Many here know I'm a big GW2 fan - but the OP's beef is my biggest beef w/ the game too.
I'm not sure if I'm going to get bored of the skills in 80 levels and beyond. Also right now, seems (for Warrior/Guardian at least) that Signets > All and I find myself never having to/wanting to press them.
To be fair if I'm going to choose "Staff" on my Guardian I WANT nothing but "healy skills" to make the most efficient use of all 5 skill slots. Right now, Only like one skill on Guardian Staff or Necro Staff is worthwhile to use. The rest of the time the other abilities go completely unused as they simply are worthless in my eyes.
The object here isn't to "pigeon hole" by giving more choice, but to simply give people options.
So basically you want to gut the whole concept of GW2 and go back to required roles again. Because that's what would happen. What you consider efficient use of those slots, ArenaNet doesn't for this very reason. You're not meant to carry all healy skills. You're meant to be versatile and self sufficient, capable alone yet better with others. I think it's pretty clear that this won't be happening however, so it's silly to argue it.
I don't exactly know what he means by 'one good skill on Necromancer staff' considering the #2 does AOE damage + bleed + AOE regen; the #3 provides chill and poison and a COMBO field; and the #4 provides a condition transfer + COMBO finisher.
I love the necro staff, and I run it on my power/+healing Well build (I've gotten lots of compliments from groups as well).
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
I understand the concern, but let me try to shine some light as to why Anet decided to do this.
In WoWs case, for example, they have a lot of abilities as part of a pool of things that you can work for in the long run (although much shorter than some other goals) because they have a subscription cost. The whole point of subscription cost is to get players to play for a long time, month after month. Sub based MMos have things in place to get you to play, to get you to play month after month, and in the event you leave, they try to get you to come back and play.
In GW2's case, there is no subscription cost, therefore there is not an overwhelming need to try to get players to keep playing month after month. There is no increased revenue that Anet receives if a player plays after the first month of purchase besides a CHANCE that they will buy gems from the Gem store. Because of this mindset, Anet has approached "progression" differently, and thus players must approach it with a different mentality as well.
Applying WoWs mentality doesnt work in this case, so its pointless (and also counterproductive) to compare the two. To be more specific about Anets approach, there is no "grinding" to access the game. They technically allow you to access the entire game at a very early stage, aside from a few instances (dungeons). They took out that aspect that made a player feel they had to play for a long time, or "grind" in order to access a portion of the game. WoW does this primarily with raids, and secondarily with abilities. in GW2, you can access WvWvW and sPVP very early on, and you can gain access to all abilites early on as well.
In conclusion, while I personally would have liked more abilites to choose from, its more of a preference, and is counter-productive to what Anet tried to established with their 'un-traditional" approach.
I understand the concern, but let me try to shine some light as to why Anet decided to do this.
In WoWs case, for example, they have a lot of abilities as part of a pool of things that you can work for in the long run (although much shorter than some other goals) because they have a subscription cost. The whole point of subscription cost is to get players to play for a long time, month after month. Sub based MMos have things in place to get you to play, to get you to play month after month, and in the event you leave, they try to get you to come back and play.
In GW2's case, there is no subscription cost, therefore there is not an overwhelming need to try to get players to keep playing month after month. There is no increased revenue that Anet receives if a player plays after the first month of purchase besides a CHANCE that they will buy gems from the Gem store. Because of this mindset, Anet has approached "progression" differently, and thus players must approach it with a different mentality as well.
Applying WoWs mentality doesnt work in this case, so its pointless (and also counterproductive) to compare the two. To be more specific about Anets approach, there is no "grinding" to access the game. They technically allow you to access the entire game at a very early stage, aside from a few instances (dungeons). They took out that aspect that made a player feel they had to play for a long time, or "grind" in order to access a portion of the game. WoW does this primarily with raids, and secondarily with abilities. in GW2, you can access WvWvW and sPVP very early on, and you can gain access to all abilites early on as well.
In conclusion, while I personally would have liked more abilites to choose from, its more of a preference, and is counter-productive to what Anet tried to established with their 'un-traditional" approach.
Good post. I am also saddened by the low number of utility skills in the game. Although, if history shows us anything (GW1), more and more utility skills will be added over time.
I think its hard not to compare GW2 to GW1 skill system, but we also have to take into account that not all of the content that is in GW1 was there on launch.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Good post. I am also saddened by the low number of utility skills in the game. Although, if history shows us anything (GW1), more and more utility skills will be added over time.
I think its hard not to compare GW2 to GW1 skill system, but we also have to take into account that not all of the content that is in GW1 was there on launch.
I agree entirely. I believe this is actually another thing they would want to include in expansions, since besides box sales and gem purchases, the only other revenue they can rely on is from expansions. Therefore it would behoove them to add things that people want, like new abilities( and anyone can look at this thread and make a clear assumption that more abilities is a big want from the community) in order to entice people to buy their expansions.
More will come in time I'm sure. I also expect to see more skills added to current weapons where we can change the current set skill much like we can do with the 6-0 skills.
Traits do heavily change playstyle on most classes. Going from a signet based warrior to a support warrior through traits heavily changes the way my class is going to play and perform in a dungeon setting. My main thing is I want trait builds to be able to be saved and switched out of combat.
I like having most of my skills early on so I get to decide how to play sooner and not wait till max level to have all the options for me open. Though I agree that the trait system, while a nice carrot for leveling, is not big enough carrot since it gives only passive bonuses.
The biggest problem with the "old" system is that I often think that I will love some class for a bunch of skills that I unlock past the mid point of overall leveling, and then find out that they are only nice on paper for my tastes. I like the fact in GW2 that I get these abilities quite early and then I get to play with them, and not just wait for them. I'd just like to see more weapon/kit styles tbh for every class.
More will come in time I'm sure. I also expect to see more skills added to current weapons where we can change the current set skill much like we can do with the 6-0 skills.
Yeah, I like the abilities being locked to weapons, but it would be nice to have some customization for each weapon. For engineer example to change poison bolts for fire or ice bolts on pistol 2, things like that. Maybe even to change the whole ability on some cases.
I love character customization and development, it is one of the most important components of a role-playing game for me and, sadly, I have to agree with OP and many others complaining about lack of depth and variety in it.
I haven't played WoW much, but I always felt that character development was one of it's best parts.
My impression is that Guild Wars 2 is much more of an "Action RPG" game, where figths require fast reaction times, good tactic, but not a lot of strategy and theorycrafting. The gameplay somewhat reminds me "Jade Empire's" gameplay. It's fun, but it get's to repetetive, to fast. I know that this system doesn't require very complex character development, but you have to give some variety and choices for people to continue playing.
I know that balance is very important ( mainly for PvP, but also for PvE), but I think that, in a long run, choosing balance over variety and freedom in character development, is a bad idea for any MMORPG. Mabey it is just me, but I feel that 'level plaing field' is something that becomes very boring, after very short time.
WoW does have a bigger number of skils per class, but as long nothing changed since the last time I played it many of them are not really used in normal skill rotations and others are purely situational.
I wouldn't mind more skills per weapon and for example being forced to chose 5 from x skill per weapon, but I'm fine as it is now. Expanding number of skills is a trival tasks if they decide to do it. Making WoW fresh and new game experience would require creating a totally new game.
The weapon skills all learned around first 7 levels
And pretty much all utility abillities learned by level 40 (if you grind challenges)
This is pretty weak
I know there are traits but that only every 5/10 levels and only being passive abillities - thats not very entertaining
I just went through new WoW talent trees and their specializations and boy was I amazed - I wanted to start MoP just because of them:
You can not be serious, are you? And about MOP "talent" system .... I'm sure this alone will substantially decrease subs much faster then with Cata or any expansion. That "new" talent tree system is, imo, the worst thing that have happened to any game.
I agree with the OP that the lack of ability progression is missed from this game. Sure, you earn skillpoints used to learn new utility spells over the course of the game, but as of level 29, 25, and 20, I rarely use those abilities, except in especially difficult encounters, because they're just not needed.
I do believe that WoW and post-WoW games had too many abilities, since many of them were too situational or redundant abilities, but I certainly used more on a regular basis than the amount used in GW2. I especially liked looking forward to the next powerful ability I'd earn as I progressed. Like the OP, or someone else in this thread has stated, I'm a leveler. The most fun part of any MMORPG, for me, is the journey. Once that journey has ended, I grow less interested in the game. So growing more powerful as I journey is important, and one indication of that power is gaining new abilities.
You also never outlevel content in GW2, since you're auto scaled lower to meet the content so that it remain challenging, making leveling progression pointless too, so you don't get any satisfaction out of leveling to meet the needs of feeling more powerful.
So why do I play GW2, if I feel this way about its progression, or lack thereof, system? Because the lack of all that puts the focus more on world exploration, which is rather enjoyable in GW2.
Originally posted by Yamota Yeah I agree, after level 40 there is no ability progression left. So the rest of the 40 or so levels will be for what, gear only? Very weak...
Not in a game where gear doesn't matter. You're supposed to have fun just exploring.
These 2 posts sum up GW2 and win this thread.
And for the record: I use most skills my WoW toons have. I can't imagine what sort of terribad player would use only a 1/4 as some here claim.
P.S.: I agree that the new MoP "talent" system is garbage and cause for concern for this genre as a whole, especially considering how horrible the GW2 system is combined with it's success - inevitable imitiation.
to OP i hope Anet wont listen voices like yours, i dont like to see an amazing skill and being force to lvl-up in order to reach that skill, already the tiers in utilities are enough (for me personaly ) ..!
It's prety obvious to me that either they are holding back, just did not have the time to make, or were flat out lazy in some respects.
Why in the world can't I equip a septer in my off hand, or and ax? Why can't a put a horn in my main hand? They way things are it's much to ridgid.
I think they simplified the skill system because they knew in order to appeal to a wider audience they would have to do what WoW does and dumb down the game.
As a Epsort they could be looking at games like LoL. LoL has a similiar mechanics where you can make small tweaks to give the illusion of developing your hero and allowing the player to feel somewhat different from others. The weapon swapping is a nice touch to give you a feeling of RPG I guess.
I was really surprised it was so different then GW when the skill sytem was one of the best parts of GW.
I think the problem will fix itself with an expansion or 2.
Adding more skills and weapons would help, particularly if some skills demands that you have certain points invested in certain trees. Like a thief trickster skill you only could use if you had 30 in the skill.
A new skill to the toolbar at every second of third level wouldnt help me at least. Fewer skills that you need to time is more fun than 100 skills that you just rotate to me at least.
And in many games most of those "new" skills just replaces a lower level skill anyways which is pointless. Take EQ2, you have loads of skills but most of the ones you get post lvl 20 is just an upgrade from a skill you already have and is used a gold/timesink (you buy upgrades for the skills there).
But twice the number of skills to choose between would be nice, and maybe a few new weapons as well. I wouldnt even mind that some new weapon types had a level restriction or forces you to have a certain specc.
The problem is, by then everyone will have either quit or have max level characters already.
So what then? Reroll, so you can gain these new skills progressively? Or just get them instantly with no effort on your already max level toons?
You cannot release a game with a half finished skill/ability tree, which guild wars 2 exactly feels like to me right now (ability progression stops halfway at lvl40) ! And then think you can fix it with an expansion or two the coming years.
If you release a game with 80 levels, you have to have the full progression in place for these 80 levels!
It just feels like they manage to get to level 40 and ran out of time. /shrug
Weird, Weird, and weird...I dont feel like that at all.
Before anyone says anything, yes I play gw1 and yes I play TSW and so on.
However, I love the trait system and to me it gives me the real feeling of progression.
Just by getting one new trait, my play style can change majorly.
Which on other games, getting one new skill almsot never change my play style a lot.
Originally posted by Yamota Yeah I agree, after level 40 there is no ability progression left. So the rest of the 40 or so levels will be for what, gear only? Very weak...
Not in a game where gear doesn't matter. You're supposed to have fun just exploring.
These 2 posts sum up GW2 and win this thread.
And for the record: I use most skills my WoW toons have. I can't imagine what sort of terribad player would use only a 1/4 as some here claim.
P.S.: I agree that the new MoP "talent" system is garbage and cause for concern for this genre as a whole, especially considering how horrible the GW2 system is combined with it's success - inevitable imitiation.
Agree in all this. There are some spells rearely if at all used in wow, but great majority find its use at least from time to time and THEN one is glad to have them. This is great with wow among other things. Actually main reason i left TSW was when I have reallized it is pure button masher. I did not know when purchased that have only 7 active ablities at once. Seven buttons to press, but one really need actually constantly only 2. Maybe 3. Gw2 here is much better and I enjoying it a lot. 10 keys at apropriate level and one can swap weapons getting 5 additional spells/abilities.
Comments
I don't exactly know what he means by 'one good skill on Necromancer staff' considering the #2 does AOE damage + bleed + AOE regen; the #3 provides chill and poison and a COMBO field; and the #4 provides a condition transfer + COMBO finisher.
I love the necro staff, and I run it on my power/+healing Well build (I've gotten lots of compliments from groups as well).
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
I understand the concern, but let me try to shine some light as to why Anet decided to do this.
In WoWs case, for example, they have a lot of abilities as part of a pool of things that you can work for in the long run (although much shorter than some other goals) because they have a subscription cost. The whole point of subscription cost is to get players to play for a long time, month after month. Sub based MMos have things in place to get you to play, to get you to play month after month, and in the event you leave, they try to get you to come back and play.
In GW2's case, there is no subscription cost, therefore there is not an overwhelming need to try to get players to keep playing month after month. There is no increased revenue that Anet receives if a player plays after the first month of purchase besides a CHANCE that they will buy gems from the Gem store. Because of this mindset, Anet has approached "progression" differently, and thus players must approach it with a different mentality as well.
Applying WoWs mentality doesnt work in this case, so its pointless (and also counterproductive) to compare the two. To be more specific about Anets approach, there is no "grinding" to access the game. They technically allow you to access the entire game at a very early stage, aside from a few instances (dungeons). They took out that aspect that made a player feel they had to play for a long time, or "grind" in order to access a portion of the game. WoW does this primarily with raids, and secondarily with abilities. in GW2, you can access WvWvW and sPVP very early on, and you can gain access to all abilites early on as well.
In conclusion, while I personally would have liked more abilites to choose from, its more of a preference, and is counter-productive to what Anet tried to established with their 'un-traditional" approach.
Good post. I am also saddened by the low number of utility skills in the game. Although, if history shows us anything (GW1), more and more utility skills will be added over time.
I think its hard not to compare GW2 to GW1 skill system, but we also have to take into account that not all of the content that is in GW1 was there on launch.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
I agree entirely. I believe this is actually another thing they would want to include in expansions, since besides box sales and gem purchases, the only other revenue they can rely on is from expansions. Therefore it would behoove them to add things that people want, like new abilities( and anyone can look at this thread and make a clear assumption that more abilities is a big want from the community) in order to entice people to buy their expansions.
More will come in time I'm sure. I also expect to see more skills added to current weapons where we can change the current set skill much like we can do with the 6-0 skills.
Traits do heavily change playstyle on most classes. Going from a signet based warrior to a support warrior through traits heavily changes the way my class is going to play and perform in a dungeon setting. My main thing is I want trait builds to be able to be saved and switched out of combat.
My Guild Wars 2 Vids
I like having most of my skills early on so I get to decide how to play sooner and not wait till max level to have all the options for me open. Though I agree that the trait system, while a nice carrot for leveling, is not big enough carrot since it gives only passive bonuses.
The biggest problem with the "old" system is that I often think that I will love some class for a bunch of skills that I unlock past the mid point of overall leveling, and then find out that they are only nice on paper for my tastes. I like the fact in GW2 that I get these abilities quite early and then I get to play with them, and not just wait for them. I'd just like to see more weapon/kit styles tbh for every class.
Yeah, I like the abilities being locked to weapons, but it would be nice to have some customization for each weapon. For engineer example to change poison bolts for fire or ice bolts on pistol 2, things like that. Maybe even to change the whole ability on some cases.
I love character customization and development, it is one of the most important components of a role-playing game for me and, sadly, I have to agree with OP and many others complaining about lack of depth and variety in it.
I haven't played WoW much, but I always felt that character development was one of it's best parts.
My impression is that Guild Wars 2 is much more of an "Action RPG" game, where figths require fast reaction times, good tactic, but not a lot of strategy and theorycrafting. The gameplay somewhat reminds me "Jade Empire's" gameplay. It's fun, but it get's to repetetive, to fast. I know that this system doesn't require very complex character development, but you have to give some variety and choices for people to continue playing.
I know that balance is very important ( mainly for PvP, but also for PvE), but I think that, in a long run, choosing balance over variety and freedom in character development, is a bad idea for any MMORPG. Mabey it is just me, but I feel that 'level plaing field' is something that becomes very boring, after very short time.
WoW does have a bigger number of skils per class, but as long nothing changed since the last time I played it many of them are not really used in normal skill rotations and others are purely situational.
I wouldn't mind more skills per weapon and for example being forced to chose 5 from x skill per weapon, but I'm fine as it is now. Expanding number of skills is a trival tasks if they decide to do it. Making WoW fresh and new game experience would require creating a totally new game.
It's prety obvious to me that either they are holding back, just did not have the time to make, or were flat out lazy in some respects.
Why in the world can't I equip a septer in my off hand, or and ax? Why can't a put a horn in my main hand? They way things are it's much to ridgid.
You can not be serious, are you? And about MOP "talent" system .... I'm sure this alone will substantially decrease subs much faster then with Cata or any expansion. That "new" talent tree system is, imo, the worst thing that have happened to any game.
I agree with the OP that the lack of ability progression is missed from this game. Sure, you earn skillpoints used to learn new utility spells over the course of the game, but as of level 29, 25, and 20, I rarely use those abilities, except in especially difficult encounters, because they're just not needed.
I do believe that WoW and post-WoW games had too many abilities, since many of them were too situational or redundant abilities, but I certainly used more on a regular basis than the amount used in GW2. I especially liked looking forward to the next powerful ability I'd earn as I progressed. Like the OP, or someone else in this thread has stated, I'm a leveler. The most fun part of any MMORPG, for me, is the journey. Once that journey has ended, I grow less interested in the game. So growing more powerful as I journey is important, and one indication of that power is gaining new abilities.
You also never outlevel content in GW2, since you're auto scaled lower to meet the content so that it remain challenging, making leveling progression pointless too, so you don't get any satisfaction out of leveling to meet the needs of feeling more powerful.
So why do I play GW2, if I feel this way about its progression, or lack thereof, system? Because the lack of all that puts the focus more on world exploration, which is rather enjoyable in GW2.
These 2 posts sum up GW2 and win this thread.
And for the record: I use most skills my WoW toons have. I can't imagine what sort of terribad player would use only a 1/4 as some here claim.
P.S.: I agree that the new MoP "talent" system is garbage and cause for concern for this genre as a whole, especially considering how horrible the GW2 system is combined with it's success - inevitable imitiation.
to OP i hope Anet wont listen voices like yours, i dont like to see an amazing skill and being force to lvl-up in order to reach that skill, already the tiers in utilities are enough (for me personaly ) ..!
i prefer the progression through exploration ..!
I think they simplified the skill system because they knew in order to appeal to a wider audience they would have to do what WoW does and dumb down the game.
As a Epsort they could be looking at games like LoL. LoL has a similiar mechanics where you can make small tweaks to give the illusion of developing your hero and allowing the player to feel somewhat different from others. The weapon swapping is a nice touch to give you a feeling of RPG I guess.
I was really surprised it was so different then GW when the skill sytem was one of the best parts of GW.
Weird, Weird, and weird...I dont feel like that at all.
Before anyone says anything, yes I play gw1 and yes I play TSW and so on.
However, I love the trait system and to me it gives me the real feeling of progression.
Just by getting one new trait, my play style can change majorly.
Which on other games, getting one new skill almsot never change my play style a lot.
Agree in all this. There are some spells rearely if at all used in wow, but great majority find its use at least from time to time and THEN one is glad to have them. This is great with wow among other things. Actually main reason i left TSW was when I have reallized it is pure button masher. I did not know when purchased that have only 7 active ablities at once. Seven buttons to press, but one really need actually constantly only 2. Maybe 3. Gw2 here is much better and I enjoying it a lot. 10 keys at apropriate level and one can swap weapons getting 5 additional spells/abilities.