They didn't ruin the genre alone. Instances were the first blow, then quest based leveling after that. And then phasing after that.
There is pretty much ZERO difference now between MMOs and Diablo.
It's really, REALLY pathetic.
I have to disagree. Instances are actually what really allow for us to have persoanlized experiences and actually give us challenge. There is virutally no way you can take an instance and put it outside the world and expect the same challenge, it would easily be trivialized by players.
And yet, the noninstanced raids and dungeons in golden age MMOs were generally far more challenging and complex than instances of today.
There are some raids in DAoC that were only ever beaten once.
They didn't ruin the genre alone. Instances were the first blow, then quest based leveling after that. And then phasing after that.
There is pretty much ZERO difference now between MMOs and Diablo.
It's really, REALLY pathetic.
Instancing has been in the genre for over a decade. I don't really think that instancing started the downfall of mmorpgs.
Ok, you're allowed to have that opinion, but I STRONGLY disagree. It is one of the worst, and most abused features in modern MMOs. It is a crutch for bad game design, and a way out for lazy developers.
when a game dont have instanced quests u QQ for some ppl steal your NPC / loot / too crowdy that cant finish the quest
and now here u say that the instanced quest is a game break
plz decide
Er, no I don't, because I play games that are designed well so that you don't HAVE to all kill the same quest NPC to advance. I've also never ever had someone steal my kills.
SOE has gone all out cash shop,something i will never support.
Blizzard well everything so far has been second rate on tech quality,so until i see this NEW secret game, they are still; an amateur developer.
Square Enix one of the largest game producers on the planet has just lost a ton of money and imo lost a lot of enthusiasm during the failure of not only FFXIV,but their game engine.Their new direction seems to be total greed,now they are looking to copy everyone else,so now we have nobody making unique games.
Who is left,NCSOFT? LOL second rate operation.
I know it sounds absurd but i truly beleive we might want to start putting our hopes on the Asian market.Archeage will be imo the first and best MMORPG to come out of that region.I know and see several flaws in the gamebut if it can be even a bit popular,it might lead the way to bigger projects,and Korea has the market to make it happen.
To be honest,i feel like the MMORPG market is getting smaller,MANY gamers have turned to pro gaming leagues and mobas ect ect League of Legends type gaming.
Bottom line is the group finder means nothing to the big picture,Wow gamers are not looking for tech or breaking edge graphics,they are simply looking to get artificial internet loot and if it carries a title that sounds hip/cool like >>>RAIDING they are all giddy for it.
The REAL MMORPG gamers seem to be a very small minority,it is really sad that the RPG in gaming stands for anything but role playing.Now devs want to remove the ROLE,remove the need for the MMO aspect [soloing] and turn an entire game into nothing more than a heap of level numbers,with end game pvp.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
when a game dont have instanced quests u QQ for some ppl steal your NPC / loot / too crowdy that cant finish the quest
and now here u say that the instanced quest is a game break
plz decide
Er, no I don't, because I play games that are designed well so that you don't HAVE to all kill the same quest NPC to advance. I've also never ever had someone steal my kills.
Exactly. How does raid/group finder in games like "wow" destroy community.
For your standard there isn't even a community in wow.
How does raid/group finder stop people from exploring open world in wow. There isn't even anything to explore.
When there arn't even anything out there to explore in the open world, raid/group finder make perfect sense.
Its not even the same type of game. In games like darkfall etc, raid/group finder don't make sense, since open world and gank each other is the main focus of the game.
Just because no game studio make games for you, dont' mean you should turn the current games which isn't even made for you for you.
TSW, SWTOR and GW2 all released with out group finder and all are doing much worse off then imaginable.
I firmly believe that if a game releases instanced PvE then you better release a group or dungeon finder. No one finds spamming in a capital city or outside the entrace to the instance fun and meaningful community building.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Then ppl say well i dont have time to spamm LFG in a city. OR I only have 1hr a day to play!
To them i say this...MMORPG games arnt for you go play FPS, if you are looking for quick fast gameplay.
And i say to you .. i vote with my wallet. Apparently devs noticed lots of gamers don't want to commit all the evenings to playing MMOs, and would love to play 1 hr here and there.
Apparently modern MMOs *are* for players with little time, since LFD is more or less a standard feature now.
My topic is about the exploration/game ruining Group finder! Now we all know what WoW has turned into...a lazy mans click fest! Why leave SW/Org when u can just stand outside the AH and click LFG/LFR till you die to get to max lvl? Where did this worlds sense of exploration and achievment go? The mmo game devs are bending over and kissing ppls you know what making there games for LAZY friendly.
Then ppl say well i dont have time to spamm LFG in a city. OR I only have 1hr a day to play!
To them i say this...MMORPG games arnt for you go play FPS, if you are looking for quick fast gameplay.
I can only PRAY/HOPE/DREAM!!!!! That Elders Scrolls, FF14 Reborn and many more new mmo's do not follow this path and ruin there game, rendering the world a compleat usless waist.
Your way or the highway, YEEEARG!
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Players ruined MMORPGs. Not only do they exploit issues and bugs instead of reporting them, but they take advantage of these conveniences like LF(G/R). It's not that these things are bad, it's that the players rely too heavily on someone else to do their work for them instead of forming relationships with players to have the same end result. The players wanted over-simplified and that's what they got.
Luckily, the game I play most of the time, Runes of Magic, doesn't cling to this LFG/R mentality. We infact have that function in the game but it is completely neglected by the players.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift. I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough. I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
Sitting around the PoK looking for members or the same with trade chat was never fun. It was just tedious and boring. I never logged into any game, as far back as EQ, and said "man, I can't wait to sit and look for a group so I can play the game". Now developers offer me the option of logging into the game, playing said game, and having fun right from the bat. It's not that I'm lazy; on the contrary, I don't like wasting my time doing tedious things for the sake of self-validation.
As for 'forming relationships', those don't always occur from forming groups. If anything, that task of group tediousness often brings out the worst in people as well. Yes, dungeon/raid finders also bring that out. We have people that act like a dick because they're (probably) never going to see you again. But that same crap happened with looking for groups the old fashioned way, except you saw it over the course of a longer period. Over my times in MMOs, I've met some great people and future-guildmates just from being thrown together in an instant group. Strike up a chat with people you meet randomly, and you might be able to meet some friends. Being able to be in groups more often gives you more chances at forming relationships, if anything.
Back in the early days, we didn't have many options concerning MMOs. We played MMOs because we wanted to play them over or in addition to console games, FPS, RTS, etc. The slowness was just something that was inherent to them and people played it that way because there weren't other options. Now, enough people engage in the genre to encourage a variety of choices that eliminate some of the tediousness and focus on what people actually want to play. If you want the slow, forced-grouping communities, go to them. Don't get offended when games appear offering options that other people are looking for.
This genre is not dying or going 'downhill' by any means. It's just changing and expanding, and that type of thing can be hard to accept when it happens to anything.
Think of the early days of WoW. To get into a dungeon, you had to assemble a group, manually, by asking people in your clan, that you meet at random, in the area chat, or in a city. That already made you get to know people in the game. Then you'd travel there together. If, for example, you'd get to that one castle near the undead starting area, you'd had a long and dangerous way to travel there. But it was fun. And when you finally arrived, everyone was motivated to get through the dungeon, and not annoy anyone, since, if you fail, none of you would get quickly another chance.
Today? Use the dungeon finder, wait some, start killing things, leave. Talking? Pffff, why? Travelling? Naaah. Who cares if the game looks empty, because people teleport constantly anyway. Who cares if it doesn't make any sense, that you can teleport from one point to another, from early levels on, just like that. Introduction into a dungeon by solo player quests? Naaaah, who cares what the dungeon is about.
Yes, the dungeon finder is convenient. But it killed many of the social aspects, lots of the atmosphere and lots of immersion.
Group finder is a fine tool. We have instanced content anyway so this is just logical. I certainly don't like the constant yelling and spamming of inappropriate chat channels just to assemble your group. It would have been nice if players just keep it into one channel (LFG), but that's not what's happening.
Think of the early days of WoW. To get into a dungeon, you had to assemble a group, manually, by asking people in your clan, that you meet at random, in the area chat, or in a city. That already made you get to know people in the game. Then you'd travel there together. If, for example, you'd get to that one castle near the undead starting area, you'd had a long and dangerous way to travel there. But it was fun. And when you finally arrived, everyone was motivated to get through the dungeon, and not annoy anyone, since, if you fail, none of you would get quickly another chance.
Today? Use the dungeon finder, wait some, start killing things, leave. Talking? Pffff, why? Travelling? Naaah. Who cares if the game looks empty, because people teleport constantly anyway. Who cares if it doesn't make any sense, that you can teleport from one point to another, from early levels on, just like that. Introduction into a dungeon by solo player quests? Naaaah, who cares what the dungeon is about.
Yes, the dungeon finder is convenient. But it killed many of the social aspects, lots of the atmosphere and lots of immersion.
Think of the early days of WoW. To get into a dungeon, you had to assemble a group, manually, by asking people in your clan, that you meet at random, in the area chat, or in a city. That already made you get to know people in the game. Then you'd travel there together. If, for example, you'd get to that one castle near the undead starting area, you'd had a long and dangerous way to travel there. But it was fun. And when you finally arrived, everyone was motivated to get through the dungeon, and not annoy anyone, since, if you fail, none of you would get quickly another chance.
Today? Use the dungeon finder, wait some, start killing things, leave. Talking? Pffff, why? Travelling? Naaah. Who cares if the game looks empty, because people teleport constantly anyway. Who cares if it doesn't make any sense, that you can teleport from one point to another, from early levels on, just like that. Introduction into a dungeon by solo player quests? Naaaah, who cares what the dungeon is about.
Yes, the dungeon finder is convenient. But it killed many of the social aspects, lots of the atmosphere and lots of immersion.
Yeah agreed.
Impact that dungeon finders make on mmorpg (and changes that follow later) especially cross-server one is that it streamlined game into instance gameplay and thus gameplay start to mirror gameplay of lobby multiplayer matchmaking games and not mmorpg gameplay. I have tonnes of games like this and I don't choose mmorpg's because I want another game like that.
Impact that dungeon finders make on mmorpg (and changes that follow later) especially cross-server one is that it streamlined game into instance gameplay and thus gameplay start to mirror gameplay of lobby multiplayer matchmaking games and not mmorpg gameplay. I have tonnes of games like this and I don't choose mmorpg's because I want another game like that.
Yes, MMOs are turning into lobby-based co-op games. Many are playing MMOs like that already. If that is the playstyle people like, i do not see any reason not to go that direction.
And actually there aren't tons of games like that. Probably fewer than MMOs. Recent online ARPG that i can count: D3, TL2, Borderlands, and none has as much content as MMOs. There is no super hero based online lobby co-op games (except the upcoming Marvel Heroes, which is also a MMO). There is no recent online ARPG.
That is why many are playing MMOs as online ARPGs .. because of the setting ... because of the mechanics. D3, the most successful online ARPG,which sold 10M, only has 5 classes. What if i want to play a paladin in an online ARPG? The closest is a MMO like WOW.
Thus, i choose MMOs as an alternative to online ARPG. The closest a MMO to an online ARPG, the better.
Ok, you're allowed to have that opinion, but I STRONGLY disagree. It is one of the worst, and most abused features in modern MMOs. It is a crutch for bad game design, and a way out for lazy developers.
Perhaps it would help if we better understood what exactly you are losing with this feature? Why does it bother you? Is this simply a matter of dogma for you, or is there some element of gameplay you enjoy that somehow is interfered with when other people choose to use dungeon finder?
Meh, the convienience of the Dungeon finder is here to stay and you will just have to find some other way of finding your desired social interaction.
Honestly this whole conversation makes me think of people wanting to risk the dangers of the Oregon Trail rather then take a plane to Portland,OR.
I don't see a problem with socialization. If you want, you can always chat in general channel or with your guildies. I doubt most players play a game to be social.
OP, I agree wholeheartedly. I think this feeling only applies to some of us core veterans. People who were playing MMOs since the mid-late 90s. The new generation coming up in gaming is more insta reward insta gratification oriented and dont want to work too hard towards a goal.
Dragnon - Guildmaster - Albion Central Bank in Albion Online
Comments
And yet, the noninstanced raids and dungeons in golden age MMOs were generally far more challenging and complex than instances of today.
There are some raids in DAoC that were only ever beaten once.
Instancing has been in the genre for over a decade. I don't really think that instancing started the downfall of mmorpgs.
Ok, you're allowed to have that opinion, but I STRONGLY disagree. It is one of the worst, and most abused features in modern MMOs. It is a crutch for bad game design, and a way out for lazy developers.
i dont understand u ppl
when a game dont have instanced quests u QQ for some ppl steal your NPC / loot / too crowdy that cant finish the quest
and now here u say that the instanced quest is a game break
plz decide
group finder + Instances + quests ruined MMOs.
It's a true fact.
Er, no I don't, because I play games that are designed well so that you don't HAVE to all kill the same quest NPC to advance. I've also never ever had someone steal my kills.
You won't see the great game anytime soon.
SOE has gone all out cash shop,something i will never support.
Blizzard well everything so far has been second rate on tech quality,so until i see this NEW secret game, they are still; an amateur developer.
Square Enix one of the largest game producers on the planet has just lost a ton of money and imo lost a lot of enthusiasm during the failure of not only FFXIV,but their game engine.Their new direction seems to be total greed,now they are looking to copy everyone else,so now we have nobody making unique games.
Who is left,NCSOFT? LOL second rate operation.
I know it sounds absurd but i truly beleive we might want to start putting our hopes on the Asian market.Archeage will be imo the first and best MMORPG to come out of that region.I know and see several flaws in the gamebut if it can be even a bit popular,it might lead the way to bigger projects,and Korea has the market to make it happen.
To be honest,i feel like the MMORPG market is getting smaller,MANY gamers have turned to pro gaming leagues and mobas ect ect League of Legends type gaming.
Bottom line is the group finder means nothing to the big picture,Wow gamers are not looking for tech or breaking edge graphics,they are simply looking to get artificial internet loot and if it carries a title that sounds hip/cool like >>>RAIDING they are all giddy for it.
The REAL MMORPG gamers seem to be a very small minority,it is really sad that the RPG in gaming stands for anything but role playing.Now devs want to remove the ROLE,remove the need for the MMO aspect [soloing] and turn an entire game into nothing more than a heap of level numbers,with end game pvp.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Exactly. How does raid/group finder in games like "wow" destroy community.
For your standard there isn't even a community in wow.
How does raid/group finder stop people from exploring open world in wow. There isn't even anything to explore.
When there arn't even anything out there to explore in the open world, raid/group finder make perfect sense.
Its not even the same type of game. In games like darkfall etc, raid/group finder don't make sense, since open world and gank each other is the main focus of the game.
Just because no game studio make games for you, dont' mean you should turn the current games which isn't even made for you for you.
TSW, SWTOR and GW2 all released with out group finder and all are doing much worse off then imaginable.
I firmly believe that if a game releases instanced PvE then you better release a group or dungeon finder. No one finds spamming in a capital city or outside the entrace to the instance fun and meaningful community building.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
And i say to you .. i vote with my wallet. Apparently devs noticed lots of gamers don't want to commit all the evenings to playing MMOs, and would love to play 1 hr here and there.
Apparently modern MMOs *are* for players with little time, since LFD is more or less a standard feature now.
Your way or the highway, YEEEARG!
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Huh? KInda obvious it is diffrent people who whine about it.
Players ruined MMORPGs. Not only do they exploit issues and bugs instead of reporting them, but they take advantage of these conveniences like LF(G/R). It's not that these things are bad, it's that the players rely too heavily on someone else to do their work for them instead of forming relationships with players to have the same end result. The players wanted over-simplified and that's what they got.
Luckily, the game I play most of the time, Runes of Magic, doesn't cling to this LFG/R mentality. We infact have that function in the game but it is completely neglected by the players.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
Sitting around the PoK looking for members or the same with trade chat was never fun. It was just tedious and boring. I never logged into any game, as far back as EQ, and said "man, I can't wait to sit and look for a group so I can play the game". Now developers offer me the option of logging into the game, playing said game, and having fun right from the bat. It's not that I'm lazy; on the contrary, I don't like wasting my time doing tedious things for the sake of self-validation.
As for 'forming relationships', those don't always occur from forming groups. If anything, that task of group tediousness often brings out the worst in people as well. Yes, dungeon/raid finders also bring that out. We have people that act like a dick because they're (probably) never going to see you again. But that same crap happened with looking for groups the old fashioned way, except you saw it over the course of a longer period. Over my times in MMOs, I've met some great people and future-guildmates just from being thrown together in an instant group. Strike up a chat with people you meet randomly, and you might be able to meet some friends. Being able to be in groups more often gives you more chances at forming relationships, if anything.
Back in the early days, we didn't have many options concerning MMOs. We played MMOs because we wanted to play them over or in addition to console games, FPS, RTS, etc. The slowness was just something that was inherent to them and people played it that way because there weren't other options. Now, enough people engage in the genre to encourage a variety of choices that eliminate some of the tediousness and focus on what people actually want to play. If you want the slow, forced-grouping communities, go to them. Don't get offended when games appear offering options that other people are looking for.
This genre is not dying or going 'downhill' by any means. It's just changing and expanding, and that type of thing can be hard to accept when it happens to anything.
yea totaly ruined, only 11 million subs on wow. sooooo ruined ^^
well, if you wonder why play outside lfr, the reason could be "because you like a challenge".
lfr is the first step towards raiding. very easy compared to the real challenges.
also, lfr is quite easy compared to challenge mode.
again, if you like it easy, stick to random, no big deal
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
The thing is convenient, but I agree.
Think of the early days of WoW. To get into a dungeon, you had to assemble a group, manually, by asking people in your clan, that you meet at random, in the area chat, or in a city. That already made you get to know people in the game. Then you'd travel there together. If, for example, you'd get to that one castle near the undead starting area, you'd had a long and dangerous way to travel there. But it was fun. And when you finally arrived, everyone was motivated to get through the dungeon, and not annoy anyone, since, if you fail, none of you would get quickly another chance.
Today? Use the dungeon finder, wait some, start killing things, leave. Talking? Pffff, why? Travelling? Naaah. Who cares if the game looks empty, because people teleport constantly anyway. Who cares if it doesn't make any sense, that you can teleport from one point to another, from early levels on, just like that. Introduction into a dungeon by solo player quests? Naaaah, who cares what the dungeon is about.
Yes, the dungeon finder is convenient. But it killed many of the social aspects, lots of the atmosphere and lots of immersion.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
totally 100% agree with this
Yeah agreed.
Impact that dungeon finders make on mmorpg (and changes that follow later) especially cross-server one is that it streamlined game into instance gameplay and thus gameplay start to mirror gameplay of lobby multiplayer matchmaking games and not mmorpg gameplay. I have tonnes of games like this and I don't choose mmorpg's because I want another game like that.
Yes, MMOs are turning into lobby-based co-op games. Many are playing MMOs like that already. If that is the playstyle people like, i do not see any reason not to go that direction.
And actually there aren't tons of games like that. Probably fewer than MMOs. Recent online ARPG that i can count: D3, TL2, Borderlands, and none has as much content as MMOs. There is no super hero based online lobby co-op games (except the upcoming Marvel Heroes, which is also a MMO). There is no recent online ARPG.
That is why many are playing MMOs as online ARPGs .. because of the setting ... because of the mechanics. D3, the most successful online ARPG,which sold 10M, only has 5 classes. What if i want to play a paladin in an online ARPG? The closest is a MMO like WOW.
Thus, i choose MMOs as an alternative to online ARPG. The closest a MMO to an online ARPG, the better.
Meh, the convienience of the Dungeon finder is here to stay and you will just have to find some other way of finding your desired social interaction.
Honestly this whole conversation makes me think of people wanting to risk the dangers of the Oregon Trail rather then take a plane to Portland,OR.
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
Perhaps it would help if we better understood what exactly you are losing with this feature? Why does it bother you? Is this simply a matter of dogma for you, or is there some element of gameplay you enjoy that somehow is interfered with when other people choose to use dungeon finder?
I don't see a problem with socialization. If you want, you can always chat in general channel or with your guildies. I doubt most players play a game to be social.
Personally, i don't play games to chat.
Dragnon - Guildmaster - Albion Central Bank in Albion Online
www.albioncentralbank.enjin.com