Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

RUINED MMOPRG's: Raid/Group Finder

1356710

Comments

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by ZigZags
    OP, I agree wholeheartedly. I think this feeling only applies to some of us core veterans. People who were playing MMOs since the mid-late 90s. The new generation coming up in gaming is more insta reward insta gratification oriented and dont want to work too hard towards a goal.

    Yeah .. and not even all the veterans. I started MMOs BEFORE UO (playign a precursor MMO called Kingdom of Drakkar). I did some hard mode raiding with a guild in WOW a year or so ago. Too much work.

    I really don't think i want to keep a schedule and  commit to hours every week just to enjoy a game. The modern way is much better. Go in and do a dungeon in 30 min. If i want to work hard, i do real work. Games are for relaxation.

  • fenistilfenistil Member Posts: 3,005
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil
     

    Yeah agreed.  

    Impact that dungeon finders make on mmorpg (and changes that follow later) especially cross-server one is that it streamlined game into instance gameplay and thus gameplay start to mirror gameplay of lobby multiplayer matchmaking games and not mmorpg gameplay.    I have tonnes of games like this and I don't choose mmorpg's because I want another game like that.

    Yes, MMOs are turning into lobby-based co-op games. Many are playing MMOs like that already. If that is the playstyle people like, i do not see any reason not to go that direction.

    And actually there aren't tons of games like that. Probably fewer than MMOs. Recent online ARPG that i can count: D3, TL2, Borderlands, and none has as much content as MMOs. There is no super hero based online lobby co-op games (except the upcoming Marvel Heroes, which is also a MMO). There is no recent online ARPG.

    That is why many are playing MMOs as online ARPGs .. because of the setting ... because of the mechanics. D3, the most successful online ARPG,which sold 10M, only has 5 classes. What if i want to play a paladin in an online ARPG? The closest is a MMO like WOW.

    Thus, i choose MMOs as an alternative to online ARPG. The closest a MMO to an online ARPG, the better.

    There is tons of lobby matchmaking games.   DOTA's, all mutliplayer FPS, all multiplayer RTS, all MOBA games (like WoT or Forge) most hack & slash games, rising number of corpg's and other variants.

    There is less hack & slash lobby games than there is mmorpg's - that's right but I was not talking about h&s online games only.  There are plenty of players playing mmorpg's as team / co-op pvp games rather than co-op PvE ones you seem to prefer.    Anyway - there is increasing number of hack & slash / action lobby games coming soon. Marvel Heroes and PoE coming very soon. LineAge Eternal and possibly Grim Dawn in more distant future. There is also Vindictus, GW1, DDO and 2 similar to it games with names I cannot remember now. 

    There is also few hack & slash games that are on kickstarter + there is big number of f2p korean / chinese hack & slash or action rpg or dungeon crawlers being made also and there is big chance some of them will be imported to west.

     

    I am ALL for more various lobby games being made.   There is already big part of pvp lobby games that do have incredible success, but in it's shadow there is also rising number of pve lobby games.

    I hope that more of them will being made because then big part of this significant number of people will go play games like that instead of mmorpg's.  This will result in smaller popularity of mmorpg's which will result with smaller amount of mmorpg's (and bigger amount of various lobby games) and smaller budgets, but at same time those which will remain will have to cater more to mmo, rpg and 'world' part of their design.

     

    "Marvel Heroes that is also an MMO".  <--  It might be an MMO (or might not), but it does not bother me.  It is clearly marketted as hack & slash game in mmo-lite / big multiplayer setting. Devs are talking about Diablo in every second dev video.

     

    I do care about mmorpg's and talk about mmorpg's specifically. Other type of mmo's and some kind of mmo-lite or various hybrids does not interest - anything can happen to games like this. I don't care.  I am glad that they other type of mmo's and other types of online games are being made.  It will mean that many people that are playing mmorpg's but are interested in lobby gameplay only or mainly will be able to choose other types of games more suited for their tastes.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    CoH, in my opinion, had the best group finding system ever created.

    But the argument always gets tangled up with WoW on one end and Sandboxes on the other.

    Someone's got to remember the other alternatives to Black or White, once in a while.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by fenistil
     

    There is tons of lobby matchmaking games.   DOTA's, all mutliplayer FPS, all multiplayer RTS, all MOBA games (like WoT or Forge) most hack & slash games, rising number of corpg's and other variants.

    That is right. There are tons of pvp lobby games. Personally i like pve more .. but i am not ignoring this huge pheonomenon. Look at LOL .. it has more active players than WOW. I also tried WOT .. it is kind of fun too.

    There is less hack & slash lobby games than there is mmorpg's - that's right but I was not talking about h&s online games only.  There are plenty of players playing mmorpg's as team / co-op pvp games rather than co-op PvE ones you seem to prefer.    Anyway - there is increasing number of hack & slash / action lobby games coming soon. Marvel Heroes and PoE coming very soon. LineAge Eternal and possibly Grim Dawn in more distant future. There is also Vindictus, GW1, DDO and 2 similar to it games with names I cannot remember now. 

    I am mostly waiting for Marvel Heroes. PoE does not look polish to me. I stil have TL2 to play. Grim Dawn looks pretty interesting. So may be i shouldn't complain that much.

    There is also few hack & slash games that are on kickstarter + there is big number of f2p korean / chinese hack & slash or action rpg or dungeon crawlers being made also and there is big chance some of them will be imported to west.

    I don't believe in kickstarter. Chinese action RPG? Do you have some links? I can read/write chinese and they can be fun, if in the right setting.

     I am ALL for more various lobby games being made.   There is already big part of pvp lobby games that do have incredible success, but in it's shadow there is also rising number of pve lobby games.

    The funny thing is that pve lobby games like Diablo was before all the pvp lobby games (except may be pvp FPS shooters).

    I hope that more of them will being made because then big part of this significant number of people will go play games like that instead of mmorpg's.  This will result in smaller popularity of mmorpg's which will result with smaller amount of mmorpg's (and bigger amount of various lobby games) and smaller budgets, but at same time those which will remain will have to cater more to mmo, rpg and 'world' part of their design.

     That is not what i see. I think MMO devs want a piece of that lobby game market. Hence LFD, arenas, and essentially embeding lobby games into MMO settings and mechanics. I think it is logical because a lot of the art, gameplay elements (like combat mechanics) can be used both in a world, and an instanced setting.

    "Marvel Heroes that is also an MMO".  <--  It might be an MMO (or might not), but it does not bother me.  It is clearly marketted as hack & slash game in mmo-lite / big multiplayer setting. Devs are talking about Diablo in every second dev video.

     I heard it has open zones. Personally i don't care which way it is labelled. From what i have seen (and that it is F2P), i will definitely play.

    I do care about mmorpg's and talk about mmorpg's specifically. Other type of mmo's and some kind of mmo-lite or various hybrids does not interest - anything can happen to games like this. I don't care.  I am glad that they other type of mmo's and other types of online games are being made.  It will mean that many people that are playing mmorpg's but are interested in lobby gameplay only or mainly will be able to choose other types of games more suited for their tastes.

    I will. In fact, i have not really played a MMO since Diablo 3 is out. Marvel Heroes will probably be my next serious games (aside from all the single player stuff). I may try Planetside 2 when it is out later this month.

    Personally i won't be unhappy if there is a split in the genre into more ARPG lobby like "mmo"s and traditional VW MMOs. I wonder what will be the right names.

     

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Member CommonPosts: 2,556
    Originally posted by KhinRunite
    Group finder is a fine tool. We have instanced content anyway so this is just logical. I certainly don't like the constant yelling and spamming of inappropriate chat channels just to assemble your group. It would have been nice if players just keep it into one channel (LFG), but that's not what's happening.

    Hey here's a solution... don't instance the dungeons!

  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207
    Don't instance anything!

    Instanced pvp is even worse.

    Mind I think in the future we will get instanced rp, instanced crafting and I.stances exploring with a lobby where you can show off your phatlewt. Probably with Titan.
  • xAPOCxxAPOCx Member UncommonPosts: 869
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Arcondo87

     

    Then ppl say well i dont have time to spamm LFG in a city. OR I only have 1hr a day to play!

    To them i say this...MMORPG games arnt for you go play FPS, if you are looking for quick fast gameplay.

     

    And i say to you .. i vote with my wallet. Apparently devs noticed lots of gamers don't want to commit all the evenings to playing MMOs, and would love to play 1 hr here and there.

    Apparently modern MMOs *are* for players with little time, since LFD is more or less a standard feature now.

     

    The Real House Wives of XXXXXXXXXX is a very popluar show watched by millions right?

    Its some of the worst drivle imaginable.

    So just because something is popular, doesent make it good.

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by xAPOCx
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Arcondo87

     

    Then ppl say well i dont have time to spamm LFG in a city. OR I only have 1hr a day to play!

    To them i say this...MMORPG games arnt for you go play FPS, if you are looking for quick fast gameplay.

     

    And i say to you .. i vote with my wallet. Apparently devs noticed lots of gamers don't want to commit all the evenings to playing MMOs, and would love to play 1 hr here and there.

    Apparently modern MMOs *are* for players with little time, since LFD is more or less a standard feature now.

     

    The Real House Wives of XXXXXXXXXX is a very popluar show watched by millions right?

    Its some of the worst drivle imaginable.

    So just because something is popular, doesent make it good.

    And Avenger made >1.5B. So just because something is popular, doesn't make it bad.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207
    Nari

    Instead of playing mmos, why not just play diablo coop when you want pve and lol when you want pvp. You can cut out all the boring leveling and exploring bits then.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Don't instance anything!

    Instanced pvp is even worse.

    Mind I think in the future we will get instanced rp, instanced crafting and I.stances exploring with a lobby where you can show off your phatlewt. Probably with Titan.

    Instanced everything. Instanced pvp is even better. Just look at LOL ... nothing but instanced pvp and a huge success.

    Yeh .. that is the future i am looking towards to. Diablo 3 is already like that. Titan may also be.

  • theAsnatheAsna Member UncommonPosts: 324
    It's not so much the group finder itself which is the issue. Rather it's a combination of players' expectations, dungeon design and the group finder.

    1) Players expectation
    Some players simply do the dungeons as a means to get gear. Others (me included) do them because they enforce a need for cooperation and teamwork (if done at appropriate levels, with a certain gear level but not outgearing content, with certain group setups). In certain games some players use dungeons to maximise their xp/min. Then there is this "endgame mentality" some players show. Anything below level cap would be meaningless and simply a tedious chore.
    There are lots of motivations and ways to do dungeons. So the expecations vary a lot depending on a player.

    2) Dungeon design
    You'll find dungeons that are merely a single hallway with a set number of encounters. By the time you reach the end of the hallway you're finished. It's very hard to get lost in there. The opposite exists as well. Maze-like dungeons where you can get lost. The former example is quite the dominant dungeon style (probably to avoid frustrating players).
    The time required to finish a dungeon has been tweaked to be manageable within an hour or less. It gets more and more similar to fastfood. Easy to consume, but you can't satisfy your hunger for some challenge (see issue #1).

    3) Group Finder
    The automatic group finder is rather a quick fix. Players don't want to spend time to get a group going. Rather they want to see this aspect being delegated to a tool while they can do something else (e.g. continue questing). But a tool has limitations. It will only try to match in-game characters to set up a party. The tools can't determine if the players have similar playstyles, nor how the players will get along. At this point we have made a full circle and are back at issue 1) from above.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Nari

    Instead of playing mmos, why not just play diablo coop when you want pve and lol when you want pvp. You can cut out all the boring leveling and exploring bits then.

    I do. I mostly play D3 now and probably will move to Marvel Heroes (whch is probaly not a "proper") when it is out.

     

  • xAPOCxxAPOCx Member UncommonPosts: 869
    Originally posted by Rossboss

    Players ruined MMORPGs. Not only do they exploit issues and bugs instead of reporting them, but they take advantage of these conveniences like LF(G/R). It's not that these things are bad, it's that the players rely too heavily on someone else to do their work for them instead of forming relationships with players to have the same end result. The players wanted over-simplified and that's what they got.

    Luckily, the game I play most of the time, Runes of Magic, doesn't cling to this LFG/R mentality. We infact have that function in the game but it is completely neglected by the players.

    I can agree with this. Perhaps the LFG tool needs to be looked at and redone.

     

    Was thinking about perhaps having group postings in the towns these instances or open dungeons are in. You want to go to a group dungeon and dont have a group? go to the boards and look to see if theres a group looking for another to go. If you dont see any groups looking for that dungeon then you can add your name to the list of players that want this instance.

     

    When a group comes through that are short someone for that place they themselves can check the boards to see if there are any people looking for said dungeon.

     

    Now the boards can do any number of things. could list your lvl and class. If your online or offline. perhaps it would let you wright something along the lines of say a item your after or a quest mob that you have to kill in said dungeon.

     

    The point is lfg tool could be used better then just click/whoosh/group/leave/click/whoosh/proup/leave.

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by theAsna
    It's not so much the group finder itself which is the issue. Rather it's a combination of players' expectations, dungeon design and the group finder.


    2) Dungeon design
    You'll find dungeons that are merely a single hallway with a set number of encounters. By the time you reach the end of the hallway you're finished. It's very hard to get lost in there. The opposite exists as well. Maze-like dungeons where you can get lost. The former example is quite the dominant dungeon style (probably to avoid frustrating players).
    The time required to finish a dungeon has been tweaked to be manageable within an hour or less. It gets more and more similar to fastfood. Easy to consume, but you can't satisfy your hunger for some challenge (see issue #1).
    What does challenge has to do with time & simple lay-out? Back in CATA, h dungeons are harder and people complain. Later, they are easy. Same short dungeons with simple layout, and they can be hard or easy depending on how the encounters are designed.
    I do like short dungeons. I don't want 3 hours gaming session that i cannot go eat a snack. 30 min to 1 hour is good. And i play dungeons to kill stuff. Make combat challenging (or let me set the difficulty). I don't want to run a maze like a rat. In fact, Blizz simplified old dungeon layout because of this.

    3) Group Finder
    The automatic group finder is rather a quick fix. Players don't want to spend time to get a group going. Rather they want it delegated to a tool while they can do something else (e.g. continue questing). But a tool has limitations. It will only try to match in-game characters to set up a party. The tools can't determine if the players have similar playstyles, nor how the players will get along. At this point we have made a full circle and are back at issue 1) from above.
    Well, you can always quit if you don't like your group. So group finder is pretty efficient that way. You can also add them as friends if you like them.

     

  • xAPOCxxAPOCx Member UncommonPosts: 869
    Originally posted by maji

    The thing is convenient, but I agree.

    Think of the early days of WoW. To get into a dungeon, you had to assemble a group, manually, by asking people in your clan, that you meet at random, in the area chat, or in a city. That already made you get to know people in the game. Then you'd travel there together. If, for example, you'd get to that one castle near the undead starting area, you'd had a long and dangerous way to travel there. But it was fun. And when you finally arrived, everyone was motivated to get through the dungeon, and not annoy anyone, since, if you fail, none of you would get quickly another chance.

    Today? Use the dungeon finder, wait some, start killing things, leave. Talking? Pffff, why? Travelling? Naaah. Who cares if the game looks empty, because people teleport constantly anyway. Who cares if it doesn't make any sense, that you can teleport from one point to another, from early levels on, just like that. Introduction into a dungeon by solo player quests? Naaaah, who cares what the dungeon is about.

    Yes, the dungeon finder is convenient. But it killed many of the social aspects, lots of the atmosphere and lots of immersion.

    image

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 3,988

    I've always found it strange that LFG menu's went largely ignored in a lot of games. Not the dungeon finder which automatically puts you together, but the panel system that simply lists a flagged persons name/level/class and a comment or whatever.

    I like that system better than dungeon finders personally, but again, from what i've ever been able to tell it was rarely used for some reason. image

  • xAPOCxxAPOCx Member UncommonPosts: 869
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by xAPOCx
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Arcondo87

     

    Then ppl say well i dont have time to spamm LFG in a city. OR I only have 1hr a day to play!

    To them i say this...MMORPG games arnt for you go play FPS, if you are looking for quick fast gameplay.

     

    And i say to you .. i vote with my wallet. Apparently devs noticed lots of gamers don't want to commit all the evenings to playing MMOs, and would love to play 1 hr here and there.

    Apparently modern MMOs *are* for players with little time, since LFD is more or less a standard feature now.

     

    The Real House Wives of XXXXXXXXXX is a very popluar show watched by millions right?

    Its some of the worst drivle imaginable.

    So just because something is popular, doesent make it good.

    And Avenger made >1.5B. So just because something is popular, doesn't make it bad.

    so it works both ways. in the end its what your personal preference is. Mine just so hapens to NOT like LFG.

    I also dont like being ported of to said instance. an empty world is just that, empty ( Jersey Shore )

    I also dont like the AH. ( Bridezillas )

    I aso hate 1 click crafting. ( Jerry Springer )

    I aso hate instanced pvp. ( Honey Boo Boo )

    See where im goin with this.

     

     

    image

  • xAPOCxxAPOCx Member UncommonPosts: 869
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    I've always found it strange that LFG menu's went largely ignored in a lot of games. Not the dungeon finder which automatically puts you together, but the panel system that simply lists a flagged persons name/level/class and a comment or whatever.

    I like that system better than dungeon finders personally, but again, from what i've ever been able to tell it was rarely used for some reason. image

    Because people are lazy. They dont want to wait. when they want a group they want to right then and there and the game should cater to them.

     

    infact its the games fault for not knowing they wanted to group ten mins before the player even knew they wanted to group and start the que prossess for them automatically.

     

    How dare your MMO not run these instance for you so that when you get home from your busy day, you dont already have a full set of new gear to put on.

    image

  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207
    The sooner Titan or some other game comes out with a series of auto grouped mini games and a lobby but no actual world, the better.

    Then the rest of us can get on with playing a real mmorpg
  • xAPOCxxAPOCx Member UncommonPosts: 869
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    The sooner Titan or some other game comes out with a series of auto grouped mini games and a lobby but no actual world, the better.

    Then the rest of us can get on with playing a real mmorpg

    lol it cant come fast enough.

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by xAPOCx
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by xAPOCx
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Arcondo87

     

    Then ppl say well i dont have time to spamm LFG in a city. OR I only have 1hr a day to play!

    To them i say this...MMORPG games arnt for you go play FPS, if you are looking for quick fast gameplay.

     

    And i say to you .. i vote with my wallet. Apparently devs noticed lots of gamers don't want to commit all the evenings to playing MMOs, and would love to play 1 hr here and there.

    Apparently modern MMOs *are* for players with little time, since LFD is more or less a standard feature now.

     

    The Real House Wives of XXXXXXXXXX is a very popluar show watched by millions right?

    Its some of the worst drivle imaginable.

    So just because something is popular, doesent make it good.

    And Avenger made >1.5B. So just because something is popular, doesn't make it bad.

    so it works both ways. in the end its what your personal preference is. Mine just so hapens to NOT like LFG.

    I also dont like being ported of to said instance. an empty world is just that, empty ( Jersey Shore )

    I also dont like the AH. ( Bridezillas )

    I aso hate 1 click crafting. ( Jerry Springer )

    I aso hate instanced pvp. ( Honey Boo Boo )

    See where im goin with this.

     

     

    Exactly. It is all personal preferences.

    i like being ported to said instances ... after the first time i walk there.

    i like AH

    i like 1 click crafting .. in fact, crafting can be optional.

    i also like instanced pvp, if there is any pvp at all.

    See where im going with this.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by xAPOCx
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    I've always found it strange that LFG menu's went largely ignored in a lot of games. Not the dungeon finder which automatically puts you together, but the panel system that simply lists a flagged persons name/level/class and a comment or whatever.

    I like that system better than dungeon finders personally, but again, from what i've ever been able to tell it was rarely used for some reason. image

    Because people are lazy. They dont want to wait. when they want a group they want to right then and there and the game should cater to them.

     

    infact its the games fault for not knowing they wanted to group ten mins before the player even knew they wanted to group and start the que prossess for them automatically.

     

    How dare your MMO not run these instance for you so that when you get home from your busy day, you dont already have a full set of new gear to put on.

    Of course. Why would i want to wait (doing nothing) to play a game?

    Damn right .. anything that can reduce wait time is a plus in my books.

    And what does waiting have to do with running the instance for you? I don't want to wait. I want to kill something ... with a challenge if you believe that. Isn't that hard to understand? That is 99% of the games out there .. fire it up and go into combat.

  • mistmakermistmaker Member UncommonPosts: 321

    i dont think that some kind of a group finding help tool is bad. better than spamming the chat

     

    there are other things which ruin the social aspect. in the end its the mass of gamers themselves...

  • defector1968defector1968 Member UncommonPosts: 469
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by defector1968

    i dont understand u ppl

    when a game dont have instanced quests u QQ for some ppl steal your NPC / loot / too crowdy that cant finish the quest

    and now here u say that the instanced quest is a game break

    plz decide

    Huh? KInda obvious it is diffrent people who whine about it.

    in many games i saw this happend

    example in swotr that ppl QQ for the black hole area for dailies for all the quests need to kill specific number of npcs and specific boxes that had response time, every day ppl scream in chat and i personally get some hate tells that i was the one that stole their npc, that happend every freaking day

    also in belsavis for the rattatataki leaders daily quest. players in each spawn npc waiting to kill them, groups made and spread out to the npcs to finish them faster.

     

    the example was for the swtor cuz its fresh and i remember each detail

    same in older games i played

     

    edit: as for the group finder, nobody force u to use it. dont like it dont use it. simple as that.

    fan of SWG, XCOM, Defiance, Global Agenda, Need For Speed, all Star Wars single player games. And waiting the darn STAR CITIZEN
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by mistmaker

    i dont think that some kind of a group finding help tool is bad. better than spamming the chat

     

    there are other things which ruin the social aspect. in the end its the mass of gamers themselves...

    I think people here needs to see the facts. A lot of people don't play games for the social aspects. They play online games to fight someone (pvp), or a co-op group to kill stuff.

    And MMO is adapting to this market. Nothing wrong with trying to satisfy your customers.

     

Sign In or Register to comment.