What are you even talking about, you must never have played DAoC then, it had zones just like GW2 just like Warhammer. Your point does not make sense.
I never mentioned "zones". I am talking about instances.
GW2's WvWvW zone, is a glorified arena which resets after 2 weeks.
Warhammer has instanced arenas from lvl 1 to lvl 40. Then their "end game" pvp "lakes" were a joke, being so spread out, seperated by swaths of PvE and zoning transitions.
If you're referring to DAoC, OF, then you are talking about the seperated frontiers of the various realms. While OF was around, the individual realm's frontier and starting PvE areas were all one "zone". With the advent of NF, the whole frontier became one zone and each realm's PvE areas were contiguous, within the scope of each PvE expansion.
Its not going away, microtransactions and pay as you go are the way of the future. Long gone are the days where people accept a subscription unless its value for money.
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Mark is 100% right. When you are the special cookie and one of the few games that are F2P/B2P you are in a good place and you can use that as a differentiator. However, when most games are F2P/B2P in a couple of years and your game has to complete with hundreds of F2P games you are going to be in huge trouble.
The industry is heading to a saturation of F2P games. And eventually to stand out you will be a subscription game.
The F2P/B2P community is something MMO devs really shouldn't want. They move on from MMO to MMO without any sort of attachment. They are just looking for the next F2P game.
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It will become a common fact that certain f2p models based on shop items alone is a hoax, and most will simply stop playing those games.. not exclusively for that reason, but also because there will emerge more fair models that will draw players. Players will become (actually already are) f2p surfers who jump to the next game whenever they hit the free limit. Once you start hearing of whales (or become one of them) who spend unreasonable amounts on a game, you will start to steer clear of those type of games and search for games that you have a more clear idea of the actual cost of playing.
Free to download and try is here to stay, but most games can't survive on whaling alone.
The problem isnt f2p, b2p, p2p, the problem is poorly implimented cash shops. Which are extremely prevasive in this game market today. Hell they are even in single player games now. I really dont see them just disappearing in 3-5 years and honestly dont think the man knows at all what he is talking about. I appreciate he is doing some bold statments to generate publicity for his little game but its just hot air. I'd gladly see bad cash shops go and the practices around them, but thinking that subscription will come back is just nonsense. Someone earlier mentioned value for money, lets be honest no matter how much you pay or how, none of us are getting decent value for money anymore, that is the problem with the game industry. When they start respecting/appreciating their customers and stop trying to cheat or screw them at every turn, that will fix the industry. And no subscriptions will not accomplish that.
Sorry, but MJ is mistaken and, frankly, stuck in the past.
Players like f2p because it allows them to buy only the content they want. Developers like MJ like the idea of a large player base subsidizing the gameplay of a small percentage of people.
When f2p developers actually listen to their customers and offer more granularity in their content offerings, their titles will do better.
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have you actualy played a free games people are spending money like crazy on them you all that love the old sub style its done over we the gamers are tired of paying subs some of you stillenjoy it i do not i like paying for the game then playing it no aditional fees buy to play is the best all around for the gamer but free to play get this when i want to is not bad not at all
He isn't really a impartial source is he? His game will live or die by the williness of people to buy a sub so he has a great deal of interest in F2P being unsustainable.
Having said that I do think that we will see a crash of sorts where anything released F2P makes money. Quality and pricing model will start to matter more within the next couple years as the market gets saturated.
RvR requires a minimum of 3 factions. To do it properly, they cannot be "mirrored" factions, either. RvR is persistent. There is no instancing in RvR. Factions cannot speak to each other in RvR. There is no FFA pvp in RvR.
Warhammer, Rift: 2 factions, some instancing.
GW2's WvWvW is 2 week long instanced arenas, with mirrored classes and races.
1. RvR requires 2 factions.
2. RvRvR requires 3 factions.
3. "Properly" is one thing to one person, another to someone else. Stop speaking as if there is one be all, end all way.
4. Persistent, instancing, speaking to each other or FFA has nothing to do with the RvR, those are limitations/additions of gameplay created by a developer. Same with magically closed off faction lands safe from opposing factions.
5. So, a realm cannot fight another realm if they are the same? Really? There must be a clear difference? Sounds like someone bought into the BS that if races are the same, people will get all confused and not be able to "fight" cause they dont know who the enemy is..
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
You can only sell so many items before the game becomes "Pay to Win".
Hosting servers capable of running a game is not cheap I'm sure. Not to mention the staff salaries etc etc.
They may make a lot of $ initially but once the game starts to die down a little I'm guessing they'll have no option but to close it down.
The only way I see a game surviving as F2P is if they push out expansions very fast, and make most things in the game to where you have to buy them, or your gameplay will suffer a lot. Such as, extra bank slots and things like that. Who wants to pay extra RL $ just to have enough bank space to make your game life less of a living hell? Not me.
The only successful games that are F2P are the ones that are Pay to Win. People know they can easily buy an awesome sword and dominate the game for a while, so they go out and do it. Then they usually quickly get tired of the game and quit.
People will only buy so many cool weapon skins.
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by Mkilbride
He also said that, if the game is in a state where it has to go F2P...he's shutting it down.
THis really the wrong attiude and something that kills games when a developer speaks.
LotrO had been running all server , without merging , with healthy populations for years. Then they did DDo which also had an impressive following before free to play mmove, after free to play they added servers.
What people like Mark Jacobs is missing is the fact the free to play opens up a game world to a bigger market share, and it is not about making 10 dollars a month, but 1 dollar a minute.
Turbine is doing extremely well in that regard, SOE as well.
SO what Mark Jacobs is telling his fans of CU, I would rather have a limited number of players, make them spend 9.99 for what could be a medicre game, rather then having a larger player base who will spend 1 dollar minute and give the subscription players , actual players to play with.
CU is a nich game, and to think little under 9k people can keep a server alive... is laughable and it is also a waste of resources.
Aww, I thought we were just starting to get along. Seriously though, here is my thinking:
>>> What people like Mark Jacobs is missing is the fact the free to play opens up a game world to a bigger market share, and it is not about making 10 dollars a month, but 1 dollar a minute.
Far from it. I know this and totally respect the games that can pull this off well. However, it's not the game I want to make.
>>>>Turbine is doing extremely well in that regard, SOE as well.
They were doing extremely well. It saved the game.
I sstopped reading there cause my response would of been a book.
With the first reponse, what does a payement model have to do with the content of a game ? My mind is blown away at how arrogant your statement was.
Okay, I'm confused here. You said "What people like Mark Jacobs is missing is the fact the free to play opens up a game world to a bigger market share, and it is not about making 10 dollars a month, but 1 dollar a minute."
My response was: Far from it (responding to your point about "....Mark Jacobs is missing"). Meaning that I do understand it opens a wider world. In other words, all I said was that I agree with you that FTP opens up a wider market. I've said this from day 1 about out KS, I've said this to VCs, etc. I just don't want to go down that route, simple as that.
With your second statement, Asheron Call is OLDER then DAoC, and it has a 14.99 a month payemnt model, LotrO has had over 500k players for half a decade at times reching millions of players world wide. SOE has run the everyquest series for decades with payment models. The notion that some of the best developers in the industry needs saving, is absolutely fucking ludacris and completly out of touch at where the market is.
And this makes even less sense. LoTRO was doing badly until LoTRO went free to play. Once it made the transition, it made them (Turbine and then WB) a lot of money and was a huge success. Once again I agreed with you. How come I agreed with both of your points and you started screaming at me for agreeing with you? I'm glad I didn't disagree, the forums would have melted down.
You may beleive you are not insulting millions of players around the world with these idiculous claims, but you are, and it just keeps getting worse with tever letter typed.
I'm sorry, what claims are you referring to? The ones where I said that a lot of developers were going to go out of business because too much competition would cause a market shakeout? Please show me one industry where that doesn't happen. Also, how I have insulted anyone? My points were that too many devs/pubs are rushing into FTP and there will be a shakeout. There's already been a lot of casualites in the mobile space (look at the number of devs that have closed up shop), just as there were in the MMO space when lots of devs flooded there.
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
You can only sell so many items before the game becomes "Pay to Win".
Hosting servers capable of running a game is not cheap I'm sure. Not to mention the staff salaries etc etc.
They may make a lot of $ initially but once the game starts to die down a little I'm guessing they'll have no option but to close it down.
The only way I see a game surviving as F2P is if they push out expansions very fast, and make most things in the game to where you have to buy them, or your gameplay will suffer a lot. Such as, extra bank slots and things like that. Who wants to pay extra RL $ just to have enough bank space to make your game life less of a living hell? Not me.
The only successful games that are F2P are the ones that are Pay to Win. People know they can easily buy an awesome sword and dominate the game for a while, so they go out and do it. Then they usually quickly get tired of the game and quit.
People will only buy so many cool weapon skins.
You do know a server is a dime a dosen now-a-days right? Every major console game has multiplayer of some sort without monthly membership fees to pay for these games.
Where do you think they're hosting these games on? Servers.
They're very inexpensive. So don't be fooled into believing servers require MMO's to have a subscription. F2P games do push our a lot of content all the time. In fact I see more content coming from the F2P market then I see coming from subscription based models. F2P games don't require their customer to purchase addition content (unless it's fashion,exp boosts, or potions from the cash shop). Your game experience doesn't suffer from not having overly abundent storage slots. That just comes down to how much of a pack rat you end up being in a game.
I have to disagree with the only successful F2P games that are "pay to win". This is completely untrue. DCUO, DDO, AoC, Tera, Raiderz, Dragons Nest, Wizardry Online, Anarchy Online, AION, I can keep this list going but I'd rather not. That P2W statement is completely false and don't believe what people tell you. F2P companies for the most part try hard to no make their game F2P. They understand that the Western Audiance doesn't want P2W so they don't make their games as such.
What makes a MMO last is the quality of the game and time and effort put within the game. A customer won't spend years in a very shallow/linear game and this is a proven fact. Which is beyond me as to why developers keep making MMO's as such.
It is not pay to win. It is WHATEVER IT TAKES to hook in another whale that will drop few thousand a MONTH on a game. It is a crack dealer business model. Find the addicts. hook them in, feed on them. Make new game repeat. People do not get how f2p actually works. It is not sustainable long term. I get recrutiers trying to get me to work for one of these scam companies every week, they pop up all over the place non stop. Crash is coming
Comments
I never mentioned "zones". I am talking about instances.
GW2's WvWvW zone, is a glorified arena which resets after 2 weeks.
Warhammer has instanced arenas from lvl 1 to lvl 40. Then their "end game" pvp "lakes" were a joke, being so spread out, seperated by swaths of PvE and zoning transitions.
If you're referring to DAoC, OF, then you are talking about the seperated frontiers of the various realms. While OF was around, the individual realm's frontier and starting PvE areas were all one "zone". With the advent of NF, the whole frontier became one zone and each realm's PvE areas were contiguous, within the scope of each PvE expansion.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Mark is 100% right. When you are the special cookie and one of the few games that are F2P/B2P you are in a good place and you can use that as a differentiator. However, when most games are F2P/B2P in a couple of years and your game has to complete with hundreds of F2P games you are going to be in huge trouble.
The industry is heading to a saturation of F2P games. And eventually to stand out you will be a subscription game.
The F2P/B2P community is something MMO devs really shouldn't want. They move on from MMO to MMO without any sort of attachment. They are just looking for the next F2P game.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
It will become a common fact that certain f2p models based on shop items alone is a hoax, and most will simply stop playing those games.. not exclusively for that reason, but also because there will emerge more fair models that will draw players. Players will become (actually already are) f2p surfers who jump to the next game whenever they hit the free limit. Once you start hearing of whales (or become one of them) who spend unreasonable amounts on a game, you will start to steer clear of those type of games and search for games that you have a more clear idea of the actual cost of playing.
Free to download and try is here to stay, but most games can't survive on whaling alone.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Sorry, but MJ is mistaken and, frankly, stuck in the past.
Players like f2p because it allows them to buy only the content they want. Developers like MJ like the idea of a large player base subsidizing the gameplay of a small percentage of people.
When f2p developers actually listen to their customers and offer more granularity in their content offerings, their titles will do better.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
He isn't really a impartial source is he? His game will live or die by the williness of people to buy a sub so he has a great deal of interest in F2P being unsustainable.
Having said that I do think that we will see a crash of sorts where anything released F2P makes money. Quality and pricing model will start to matter more within the next couple years as the market gets saturated.
1. RvR requires 2 factions.
2. RvRvR requires 3 factions.
3. "Properly" is one thing to one person, another to someone else. Stop speaking as if there is one be all, end all way.
4. Persistent, instancing, speaking to each other or FFA has nothing to do with the RvR, those are limitations/additions of gameplay created by a developer. Same with magically closed off faction lands safe from opposing factions.
5. So, a realm cannot fight another realm if they are the same? Really? There must be a clear difference? Sounds like someone bought into the BS that if races are the same, people will get all confused and not be able to "fight" cause they dont know who the enemy is..
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I agree with Mark here 100%
You can only sell so many items before the game becomes "Pay to Win".
Hosting servers capable of running a game is not cheap I'm sure. Not to mention the staff salaries etc etc.
They may make a lot of $ initially but once the game starts to die down a little I'm guessing they'll have no option but to close it down.
The only way I see a game surviving as F2P is if they push out expansions very fast, and make most things in the game to where you have to buy them, or your gameplay will suffer a lot. Such as, extra bank slots and things like that. Who wants to pay extra RL $ just to have enough bank space to make your game life less of a living hell? Not me.
The only successful games that are F2P are the ones that are Pay to Win. People know they can easily buy an awesome sword and dominate the game for a while, so they go out and do it. Then they usually quickly get tired of the game and quit.
People will only buy so many cool weapon skins.
Okay, I'm confused here. You said "What people like Mark Jacobs is missing is the fact the free to play opens up a game world to a bigger market share, and it is not about making 10 dollars a month, but 1 dollar a minute."
My response was: Far from it (responding to your point about "....Mark Jacobs is missing"). Meaning that I do understand it opens a wider world. In other words, all I said was that I agree with you that FTP opens up a wider market. I've said this from day 1 about out KS, I've said this to VCs, etc. I just don't want to go down that route, simple as that.
And this makes even less sense. LoTRO was doing badly until LoTRO went free to play. Once it made the transition, it made them (Turbine and then WB) a lot of money and was a huge success. Once again I agreed with you. How come I agreed with both of your points and you started screaming at me for agreeing with you? I'm glad I didn't disagree, the forums would have melted down.
I'm sorry, what claims are you referring to? The ones where I said that a lot of developers were going to go out of business because too much competition would cause a market shakeout? Please show me one industry where that doesn't happen. Also, how I have insulted anyone? My points were that too many devs/pubs are rushing into FTP and there will be a shakeout. There's already been a lot of casualites in the mobile space (look at the number of devs that have closed up shop), just as there were in the MMO space when lots of devs flooded there.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
It is not pay to win. It is WHATEVER IT TAKES to hook in another whale that will drop few thousand a MONTH on a game. It is a crack dealer business model. Find the addicts. hook them in, feed on them. Make new game repeat. People do not get how f2p actually works. It is not sustainable long term. I get recrutiers trying to get me to work for one of these scam companies every week, they pop up all over the place non stop. Crash is coming
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann