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MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Truthfully, I played all Korean mmos until Lotro which I alpha and beta tested , with a company that truly listened t the testers, Turbine. Life time subscription to LotrO cause of the dedication Turbone has for it's fans.
I never even gave DAoC a look , never payed atention to it's developments, tried the 14 day trial and you know what turned me completely off, mirror water, was dumb looking lol, II just could get past at how dumb the water looked, I;m articfical that way, Korean designers are just better at visual stimulation the American artists, just look at Tera online.
The one thing I can tell you is this, never , ever detract from the competitors, the people you've worked ofr and ect, meaning don't talk shit. Just do your thing, let it speak for itself.
Truthfully noone wants to hear what a millionare thinks when he has the luxary to talk shit, it is tacky and un professional. If I had a million dollars, the last thing I be doing is arguing with a bunch of nerds about something that will "supposedly": not even be part of the game that said person is working on.
Okay, just answer one question please. Where did I say anything bad (talk shit) about a competitor?
Regarding F2P models.. I view it as the same as reality television. Althought it may be popular with a certain NICHE market, it is vastly unpopular in different sectors of the television market. I mean, honestly.. how many people do you know that just absolutely loves reality tv? I can only count a few. It's a popular trend right now and it won't stick around forever in the mass markets.
My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
thats why the B2P model is the best of both worlds. In a free to play mmo, you play for free but have to pay for things that are needed in the game(which isnt that bad) but then theres a high risk of being p2w or hardcore nickle n dime. In a sub based mmo you purchase the game but you have to keep paying to even log in, which sucks, i already payed for your game
B2P is the most balanced and make the most sense. You purchase the game, and have the entire game. Theres absolutely zero chance to even look at p2w because the company sells boxes and expansions, so the cash shop can be very decent and greed-free.
This are times where subscription only wont cut it. We are not getting enough content to justify a sub, not even the gameplay quality is there anymore (grind to endgame then do mindless "endgame" grind for 15 a month? no thanks, thats not quality game for my money, and certainly not AAA as they claim).
I think GW2 has the best b2p model (and still need more cool stuff in the cash shop). And i think TERA does the best job mixing all three models together succesfully.
There has never been a B2P MMO ever. If a game has a cash shop it is a microtransaction business model. I am really interested how you consider GW2 not a microtransaction game when it has a cash shop with items to buy?
I don't disagree that a "B2P MMO" would not be awesome, but I don't know if such a game can exist.
If players do not purchase the expansion and they can not experience the content, then does that not make it essentially a microtransaction based game?
If players do not purchase the expansion and developers block their account, then does that not make it essentially a subscription based game?
Pretty good actually. SOme free advice, just stop posting, cause a CEo saying the things you are , is killing your COMPANIES chance for success. It seems like when things are going good, you are out in the limelight, but when things go south, you are never to be found... much like WAR. Where was this passion and desire to fix what was already infront of you....
Sorry no... What MJ has shown is backbone as well as integrity. That's what I'd want to see from something/someone I backed. He's right he doesn't have to be here talking to folks like yourself, but he is, he respects you while he does it, what's so hard about doing the same back?
Thanks. Appreciate it.
More like thanks to you for putting up with that and sticking to your guns, it's good to see someone in your position interacting with their audience, be it fan or foe. It makes me wish CU was more to my interests, sadly I'm just not the hardcore PVPer I once was in 02-03. Not to say I haven't thought about backing you guys regardless just to help out, your audience is hungry for the game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Pretty good actually. SOme free advice, just stop posting, cause a CEo saying the things you are , is killing your COMPANIES chance for success. It seems like when things are going good, you are out in the limelight, but when things go south, you are never to be found... much like WAR. Where was this passion and desire to fix what was already infront of you....
Sorry no... What MJ has shown is backbone as well as integrity. That's what I'd want to see from something/someone I backed. He's right he doesn't have to be here talking to folks like yourself, but he is, he respects you while he does it, what's so hard about doing the same back?
Thanks. Appreciate it.
More like thanks to you for putting up with that and sticking to your guns, it's good to see someone in your position interacting with their audience, be it fan or foe. It makes me wish CU was more to my interests, sadly I'm just not the hardcore PVPer I once was in 02-03. Not to say I haven't thought about backing you guys regardless just to help out, your audience is hungry for the game.
Thanks for the kind words anyway. In terms of CU, wait till launch (assuming we fund) and if you like what you see, I'd be proud to see you take a chance with it.
More like thanks to you for putting up with that and sticking to your guns, it's good to see someone in your position interacting with their audience, be it fan or foe. It makes me wish CU was more to my interests, sadly I'm just not the hardcore PVPer I once was in 02-03. Not to say I haven't thought about backing you guys regardless just to help out, your audience is hungry for the game.
Thanks for the kind words anyway. In terms of CU, wait till launch (assuming we fund) and if you like what you see, I'd be proud to see you take a chance with it.
Again, thanks.
Np, and I'll do that for sure, I may not PVP as much but I still have fun doing it .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Truthfully, I played all Korean mmos until Lotro which I alpha and beta tested , with a company that truly listened t the testers, Turbine. Life time subscription to LotrO cause of the dedication Turbone has for it's fans.
I never even gave DAoC a look , never payed atention to it's developments, tried the 14 day trial and you know what turned me completely off, mirror water, was dumb looking lol, II just could get past at how dumb the water looked, I;m articfical that way, Korean designers are just better at visual stimulation the American artists, just look at Tera online.
The one thing I can tell you is this, never , ever detract from the competitors, the people you've worked ofr and ect, meaning don't talk shit. Just do your thing, let it speak for itself.
Truthfully noone wants to hear what a millionare thinks when he has the luxary to talk shit, it is tacky and un professional. If I had a million dollars, the last thing I be doing is arguing with a bunch of nerds about something that will "supposedly": not even be part of the game that said person is working on.
Okay, just answer one question please. Where did I say anything bad (talk shit) about a competitor?
I do had to admitt there was nothing bad said towards other competitors.
And I thank you too for being honest about it.
Truly though, I know you think I f-ed up with WAR and I'll never hide/shy away from saying the same thing I've said once my NDA was lifted. I was the GM and no matter what, I have to be willing to shoulder the blame for my role in what happened regardless of whether somebody hated/mehed/liked/loved the game.
And I doubt you'll believe this either but, that's another reason I'm putting in my own money and spending so much time talking to people. I wanted everybody to know why it's going to be different this time. I'm independent, spending my own money and beholden only to our backers and the vision of the game that I have asked them to support.
I truly hope you see the difference. Again, I'm not asking you to support us or even necessarily to believe me but I hope that you'll give me enough benefit of the doubt to at least see that things might be a bit more complicated than you believed and that things are going to be different this time. They have to be because if CU funds and is a disaster, well, that's it for my career.
P2P is a dated model that no longer has any reason behind it. However, I'll happily pay for a good P2P game. However, I emphisize on good because in the past 7 years I have yet to see anything remotely worth my 15 dollar monthly membership. While MJ might make a spiritual successor for DAoC. I will not believe it until I see it. Like I've stated earlier. You're only as good as your last product which for MJ is Warhammer Online.
I know from experience how poorly his company developed and maintained Warhammer Online. So, I believe MJ's standards are not up to par with what people expect from a good subscription MMO. People want great quality especially when they're put into a situation where they're required to pay a monthly fee for their product.
He has a lot of proving to do for me to buy his product; let alone invest in the KS he started.
EA Games, the company that kills everything it touches. Thats really all that needs to be said here. I understand youre upset about Warhammer, but just blaming the entire thing on one guy? Why him?
If you really just dont want to back the project, then dont back it. Buy it when it comes out and play with the rest of us. We wont even say "we told you so!" (well maybe just once).
This is about more than you just not wanting to pledge, you have the choice to just not post if you actually didnt care.
Maybe MJ isnt the most productive target?
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
More like thanks to you for putting up with that and sticking to your guns, it's good to see someone in your position interacting with their audience, be it fan or foe. It makes me wish CU was more to my interests, sadly I'm just not the hardcore PVPer I once was in 02-03. Not to say I haven't thought about backing you guys regardless just to help out, your audience is hungry for the game.
Thanks for the kind words anyway. In terms of CU, wait till launch (assuming we fund) and if you like what you see, I'd be proud to see you take a chance with it.
Again, thanks.
Np, and I'll do that for sure, I may not PVP as much but I still have fun doing it .
Cool. That's one of the things I am actually trying to factor into my design for CU. I know that most of the folks who played the early MMOs are in a different situation than they were back then. I can't design a game for the UO/EQ/AC/DAoC crew of 1999-2001, I have to try to design an MMORPG for that crowd (and others) who don't have the time/willingness to spend as much time playing these games like they used to. That's why our progression system is going to be more horizontally based than vertically, so that people who don't spend as much time can get in there and get into the action and not have a high level player breathe on them and they die.
That's also one of the reasons that I think F2P games are doing so well for many, you can play a bit, pay a little bit and not feel guilty about not logging in every night, all night while at the same time, also have so many people who play a lot in the same world.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Taldier
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
P2P is a dated model that no longer has any reason behind it. However, I'll happily pay for a good P2P game. However, I emphisize on good because in the past 7 years I have yet to see anything remotely worth my 15 dollar monthly membership. While MJ might make a spiritual successor for DAoC. I will not believe it until I see it. Like I've stated earlier. You're only as good as your last product which for MJ is Warhammer Online.
I know from experience how poorly his company developed and maintained Warhammer Online. So, I believe MJ's standards are not up to par with what people expect from a good subscription MMO. People want great quality especially when they're put into a situation where they're required to pay a monthly fee for their product.
He has a lot of proving to do for me to buy his product; let alone invest in the KS he started.
EA Games, the company that kills everything it touches. Thats really all that needs to be said here. I understand youre upset about Warhammer, but just blaming the entire thing on one guy? Why him?
If you really just dont want to back the project, then dont back it. Buy it when it comes out and play with the rest of us. We wont even say "we told you so!" (well maybe just once).
This is about more than you just not wanting to pledge, you have the choice to just not post if you actually didnt care.
Maybe MJ isnt the most productive target?
But I am the most productive target who is here which is why so many developers stay away from open forums these days. Some are great about it but many prefer not to be "targets of opportunity" for players who want to express their opinions, vent at times (lord knows, I have wanted to do that to as a consumer) or simply want to talk to the developers. I am not saying devs are special little flowers who shouldn't be able to take a verbal punch but sometimes, even for the most thick-skinned it gets a bit depressing when the real vitriol starts to flow especially since so many of us are gamers too.
Originally posted by Vorthanion I sure hope this buisiness model collapses. I'm tired of the crappy quality games that have resulted from this movement.
are you also tired of all the crappy quality P2P MMO's that continue to release?
I'll take subscription based SWTOR over any of the current F2P pieces of garbage anyday.
Originally posted by Vorthanion I sure hope this buisiness model collapses. I'm tired of the crappy quality games that have resulted from this movement.
are you also tired of all the crappy quality P2P MMO's that continue to release?
I'll take subscription based SWTOR over any of the current F2P pieces of garbage anyday.
Originally posted by Vorthanion As far as shooter MMOs go, I much prefer Planetside 2 over Defiance.
you take the free one with the more questionable item shop yet you act like a hardass anti f2p guy here. ok.
For PvP, and more especially, RvR games, subs are the way to go, in my opinion.
PvE? Any of the models will work, and it's all dependent on how the publisher wants to monetize their product. Please note, I said "publisher" not devs. Publishers are almost always the ones who control the monetization scheme, these days. The devs must then accomodate and adapt to work what was decided upon into their game.
B2P is only really a model for RTS's and FPS's. Games where you don't need to constantly update the content, until the next B2P expansion.
Originally posted by boxsnd We will see if his prediction is right. I predict exactly the opposite. F2P/B2P will flourish and P2P will die out with WoW.
I predict you are half right. I think the whole genre is going to be in trouble by then.
Business models are not the issue. pisspoor quality MMORPGs are the issue. Create a quality product and people will pay for it. Once you have a quality product, you can then figure out the best business model. But we can all see how dollar signs have driven this industry since the (anomalous) success of WoW. Developers have lost sight of why gamers play and have zeroed in on their wallets. It shows.
MMORPGs weren't originally mainstream games. I believe they will eventually either die out or return to their roots. I also think there will be forks. Gw2 could potentially be the pioneer to such a fork....A hybrization from action games. But in the end, I don't think they will be what we call(ed) MMORPGs
There has not been too many good MMOs for sure. You are right, but I think we are reaching the tail end of that cycle. GW2 has been a huge success -- the biggest since WoW-- and is seeing more initial success then WoW did initially as well. A big reason for this is the B2P model. I think that is the direction "AAA" quality MMOs will go. Games like TESO and Wildstar look to be promising. I think that the future of this genre is fine, but I also think that there will be more quality games coming. From my current perspective the only thing that could screw up TESO and Wildstar at this point is...a sub model.
I think your wrong and the millions of players still playing WoW agree. People don't care what the pay model is as long as the game is good and keeps them playing. Your trying to factor in this current crop of failed mmo's that had to go to F2P to try and recoup some of the money they lost from bad decisions, yes there will always be a few die hard fans that stick around buying stuff from the cash shops, but doesnt that make the game a niche game?
B2P is a funny model, your basically paying a box price for a F2P model game. Now you say that was a huge success, how are you judgeing this huge success? It might have been from launch, but this genre isnt about quick money making titles, it used to be a marathon and about longevity.
The millions of people playing WoW are playing WoW because they have been playing it forever. They are commited to the game, invested to it, and that won't go away anytime soon. As far as the rest of us who play other --newer games, this is not the case. The rest of the industry (which at this point is far bigger then WoW) is constantly jumping from game to game. There are a few who stick around with their sub based MMOs, but for the most part they are sticking with F2P / B2P games. GW2 is a huge success and you are just blinding yourself with World of Warcraft if you can't see this. Just look up some NC Soft earnings reports. They are making the company more money then ever because of it.
Your ignorance of the B2P model is apparent here. A f2p game restricts you, alot of times on content, whereas a B2P game does not. You buy GW2 and you get the whole game. You don't have to pay a cent. You can see and play all the content there is completely for free. That is not a F2P model. F2P models restrict your ability to play the game the way you want to or restrict the amount of content available to you.
The fact that they lost subs, once again, after an expansion launched shows just how well that game is doing. Honestly, the game is going to continue to lose subs every quarter just as it did after Cata. Every expansion they will get back some, but I expect it won't be for long.
Best post so far.
I think we should stop lumping all FTP into the same category since there are some truely terrible models within this system. It all comes down to execution and not nickel and diming players to death with every little thing.
The fact that MJ's game is set to release right around the time of his prediction is also laughable.
The real reason FTP is here to stay is because the era of people playing 1 MMO for years and years is over.
Most games make decent money the first year. It's after that point that proves if a model works well or not. I never heard much of anything about GW1's profitability a year after release or expansion. I've yet to hear any company boasting of huge profits in a F2P game older than a year. I hear lots of noise about account numbers and nothing about actual income. I've noticed more and more F2P games closing after they've been going for more than a year.
Originally posted by VorthanionI sure hope this buisiness model collapses. I'm tired of the crappy quality games that have resulted from this movement.
are you also tired of all the crappy quality P2P MMO's that continue to release?
I'll take subscription based SWTOR over any of the current F2P pieces of garbage anyday.
How did f2p change the content of the game ?
It was designed for subscription, which means it had a higher quality development than those I have played that were F2P from the start.
Originally posted by Vorthanion I sure hope this buisiness model collapses. I'm tired of the crappy quality games that have resulted from this movement.
are you also tired of all the crappy quality P2P MMO's that continue to release?
I'll take subscription based SWTOR over any of the current F2P pieces of garbage anyday.
Originally posted by Vorthanion As far as shooter MMOs go, I much prefer Planetside 2 over Defiance.
you take the free one with the more questionable item shop yet you act like a hardass anti f2p guy here. ok.
I was comparing shooters, not their frakking business models. I didn't play either of the shooter games past beta.
Originally posted by VorthanionI sure hope this buisiness model collapses. I'm tired of the crappy quality games that have resulted from this movement.
are you also tired of all the crappy quality P2P MMO's that continue to release?
I'll take subscription based SWTOR over any of the current F2P pieces of garbage anyday.
How did f2p change the content of the game ?
It was designed for subscription, which means it had a higher quality development than those I have played that were F2P from the start.
<snicker> Games designed to be F2P, from the ground up, are only slightly higher quality, on average, than browser-based MMORPGs.
I think the old adage is still valid. You get what you pay for.
This is not to say that there are no good F2P games but the selection is quite limited. And the model is here to stay since there is obviously a following for these.
Now the B2P games seen to be better but the jury is still out on these.
And the P2P games are for sure the better quality. But even here they sure can make some stinkers. Greed tends to hover in this price model since price is not based on quality but some arbitrary goal to soak the community.
But overall I have to think that it is still true, you do get what you pay for.
Comments
Okay, just answer one question please. Where did I say anything bad (talk shit) about a competitor?
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
There has never been a B2P MMO ever. If a game has a cash shop it is a microtransaction business model. I am really interested how you consider GW2 not a microtransaction game when it has a cash shop with items to buy?
I don't disagree that a "B2P MMO" would not be awesome, but I don't know if such a game can exist.
If players do not purchase the expansion and they can not experience the content, then does that not make it essentially a microtransaction based game?
If players do not purchase the expansion and developers block their account, then does that not make it essentially a subscription based game?
More like thanks to you for putting up with that and sticking to your guns, it's good to see someone in your position interacting with their audience, be it fan or foe. It makes me wish CU was more to my interests, sadly I'm just not the hardcore PVPer I once was in 02-03. Not to say I haven't thought about backing you guys regardless just to help out, your audience is hungry for the game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Thanks for the kind words anyway. In terms of CU, wait till launch (assuming we fund) and if you like what you see, I'd be proud to see you take a chance with it.
Again, thanks.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Np, and I'll do that for sure, I may not PVP as much but I still have fun doing it
.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
And I thank you too for being honest about it.
Truly though, I know you think I f-ed up with WAR and I'll never hide/shy away from saying the same thing I've said once my NDA was lifted. I was the GM and no matter what, I have to be willing to shoulder the blame for my role in what happened regardless of whether somebody hated/mehed/liked/loved the game.
And I doubt you'll believe this either but, that's another reason I'm putting in my own money and spending so much time talking to people. I wanted everybody to know why it's going to be different this time. I'm independent, spending my own money and beholden only to our backers and the vision of the game that I have asked them to support.
I truly hope you see the difference. Again, I'm not asking you to support us or even necessarily to believe me but I hope that you'll give me enough benefit of the doubt to at least see that things might be a bit more complicated than you believed and that things are going to be different this time. They have to be because if CU funds and is a disaster, well, that's it for my career.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
EA Games, the company that kills everything it touches. Thats really all that needs to be said here. I understand youre upset about Warhammer, but just blaming the entire thing on one guy? Why him?
If you really just dont want to back the project, then dont back it. Buy it when it comes out and play with the rest of us. We wont even say "we told you so!" (well maybe just once).
This is about more than you just not wanting to pledge, you have the choice to just not post if you actually didnt care.
Maybe MJ isnt the most productive target?
Cool. That's one of the things I am actually trying to factor into my design for CU. I know that most of the folks who played the early MMOs are in a different situation than they were back then. I can't design a game for the UO/EQ/AC/DAoC crew of 1999-2001, I have to try to design an MMORPG for that crowd (and others) who don't have the time/willingness to spend as much time playing these games like they used to. That's why our progression system is going to be more horizontally based than vertically, so that people who don't spend as much time can get in there and get into the action and not have a high level player breathe on them and they die.
That's also one of the reasons that I think F2P games are doing so well for many, you can play a bit, pay a little bit and not feel guilty about not logging in every night, all night while at the same time, also have so many people who play a lot in the same world.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
But I am the most productive target who is here which is why so many developers stay away from open forums these days. Some are great about it but many prefer not to be "targets of opportunity" for players who want to express their opinions, vent at times (lord knows, I have wanted to do that to as a consumer) or simply want to talk to the developers. I am not saying devs are special little flowers who shouldn't be able to take a verbal punch but sometimes, even for the most thick-skinned it gets a bit depressing when the real vitriol starts to flow especially since so many of us are gamers too.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
I'll take subscription based SWTOR over any of the current F2P pieces of garbage anyday.
you take the free one with the more questionable item shop yet you act like a hardass anti f2p guy here. ok.
For PvP, and more especially, RvR games, subs are the way to go, in my opinion.
PvE? Any of the models will work, and it's all dependent on how the publisher wants to monetize their product. Please note, I said "publisher" not devs. Publishers are almost always the ones who control the monetization scheme, these days. The devs must then accomodate and adapt to work what was decided upon into their game.
B2P is only really a model for RTS's and FPS's. Games where you don't need to constantly update the content, until the next B2P expansion.
Most games make decent money the first year. It's after that point that proves if a model works well or not. I never heard much of anything about GW1's profitability a year after release or expansion. I've yet to hear any company boasting of huge profits in a F2P game older than a year. I hear lots of noise about account numbers and nothing about actual income. I've noticed more and more F2P games closing after they've been going for more than a year.
It was designed for subscription, which means it had a higher quality development than those I have played that were F2P from the start.
I was comparing shooters, not their frakking business models. I didn't play either of the shooter games past beta.
<snicker> Games designed to be F2P, from the ground up, are only slightly higher quality, on average, than browser-based MMORPGs.
I think the old adage is still valid. You get what you pay for.
This is not to say that there are no good F2P games but the selection is quite limited. And the model is here to stay since there is obviously a following for these.
Now the B2P games seen to be better but the jury is still out on these.
And the P2P games are for sure the better quality. But even here they sure can make some stinkers. Greed tends to hover in this price model since price is not based on quality but some arbitrary goal to soak the community.
But overall I have to think that it is still true, you do get what you pay for.
Nanulak