And they haven't shown how much depth a skill might have. I've already posted an example of a poorly designed skill and a well designed skill in these types of topics.
Originally posted by Sovrath I personally like this direction but I also know that having more skills on a bar doesn't equal depth.Additionally one can add additional functionality by activating a skill and "suddenly" that skill icon is replaced by another icon for another skill. Aion does this. Not trumpeting Aion's system but that one bit of functionality can add to a player's resources.Imagine a skill that acts one way while standing and increases in efficacy while moving forward to attack. However, maybe that forward movement also places the player off balance and they get a minus to defense. Then after using that skill, another icon appears dependent on whether the player was moving forward, standing (or even backing away slowly?). Does the player utilize that newly appearing skill or do they decide to use something different.And now imagine that your skills not only alter depending on your movement (in any direction) but then somethnig happens depending on your opponents movement or position?This rabbit hole is deep and huge skill bars are really not required.
omg, someone else on these forums who has played and recognized excellent skill design.
8 skill slots is fine with me. What would definitelly piss me off is if they only have 8 skills on a character. As long as i have 400 skills to choose from at any given time im ok with freely choosing any 8 combination i want. No cookie cutter builds, no rotation based builds, more player skill based combat, and less hotbars on screen make me happy.
WIth that said, im worried about limiting to "4 weapon skills and 4 utilities". I hope they add all 8 weapon skills, and then 4 class specific utilities on the F1-F4 buttons.
There is data, EVE is 500k subscribers at 15€ (we don't know the microtransactions in EVE though) (and should Dust be calculated into EVE?), and there is data going back all the way to the launch so feel free to count on it. Also I provide data and stats and the rest who argues against don't bring anything to the table, how is GW2 a huge success? It is not a failure but I do think it is a lie that it is second biggest after WoW, and 2.5mil users online per week definitely is a lie. Reality check is needed for some people honestly.
EDIT: If you wonder how this is connected to EQN you need to flip back a few pages.
Yeah I looked through the whole thread and your post is still not related to EQN.
But that's alright, most threads on this forum don't actually relate to the topic past the first page.
It was about the way skills work, which is the original topic of this thread. We discussed the GW2 model which it very much is related to and then it went on to whether GW2 is a success or not. On this forum people are really dillusional when it comes to the success of some games, they think GW2 have 83% of they people buying boxes still playing, they don't bother to check sources or facts at all. So I pointed this out for them. Somewhat related I guess? Still yes, you have a point.
success is pretty subjective
The only thing you can quantify are sales and revenue, everything else is quite frankly bullshit.
Yes I suppose, how do you think 'great success' should be seen then? Losing out to a 10+ year old game is not how I see 'great success' financially.
How can anyone answer when we dont know about the action combat in detail, and how the AI, or even the pvp in the game.
However, in games like FPS where you only have two or 3 different abilties. The FPS corsair, gernade throw, or the knife... its very engaging. So if people find that fun, then maybe from the same or similar minded group they can easily find a similar twictch based and situational combat system fun.
I am concerned that having it twitch based like PS2 would mean that ping is important since there is no targeting a character.
But, if less abilities can be fun, then it should be more situational and possibly more twitch based than traditional MMOs.
So maybe an archer class can have an aim ability, and the abilities or some of them for example add a bonus to the aim attack. I think that would be very fun personally, but my ping is horrible normally, so I would not benefit form that... but if I could enjoy it without ping issues... I think that would be fun, since it also tap into a skill I honed a long time ago but have not since practised in almost a decade.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
8 skill slots is fine with me. What would definitelly piss me off is if they only have 8 skills on a character. As long as i have 400 skills to choose from at any given time im ok with freely choosing any 8 combination i want. No cookie cutter builds, no rotation based builds, more player skill based combat, and less hotbars on screen make me happy.
WIth that said, im worried about limiting to "4 weapon skills and 4 utilities". I hope they add all 8 weapon skills, and then 4 class specific utilities on the F1-F4 buttons.
And be able to keybind every button freely.
keybinds will surely be available, who doesn't add that in todays market?
Thing is those weapon skills are pretty boring, just like GW2 they made it like every thief was pretty much the same. You would know exactly how it worked and how to counter since everyone ran the most efficient builds and not all weapons could reach that level etc etc.
Originally posted by djazzy
Originally posted by Kuro1n
Originally posted by djazzy
Originally posted by Kuro1n
Originally posted by djazzy
Originally posted by Kuro1n
There is data, EVE is 500k subscribers at 15€ (we don't know the microtransactions in EVE though) (and should Dust be calculated into EVE?), and there is data going back all the way to the launch so feel free to count on it. Also I provide data and stats and the rest who argues against don't bring anything to the table, how is GW2 a huge success? It is not a failure but I do think it is a lie that it is second biggest after WoW, and 2.5mil users online per week definitely is a lie. Reality check is needed for some people honestly.
EDIT: If you wonder how this is connected to EQN you need to flip back a few pages.
Yeah I looked through the whole thread and your post is still not related to EQN.
But that's alright, most threads on this forum don't actually relate to the topic past the first page.
It was about the way skills work, which is the original topic of this thread. We discussed the GW2 model which it very much is related to and then it went on to whether GW2 is a success or not. On this forum people are really dillusional when it comes to the success of some games, they think GW2 have 83% of they people buying boxes still playing, they don't bother to check sources or facts at all. So I pointed this out for them. Somewhat related I guess? Still yes, you have a point.
success is pretty subjective
The only thing you can quantify are sales and revenue, everything else is quite frankly bullshit.
Yes I suppose, how do you think 'great success' should be seen then? Losing out to a 10+ year old game is not how I see 'great success' financially.
Is it a competition?
No but the people who I responded to said GW2 was the 2nd most successful MMO or some crap based on the 'fact' of another thread where stated GW2 has 2.5 mil users weekly blabla.
My monk in eq had... Feign death, flying kick, disarm, and bind wound. That was it. My war had bash, taunt, disarm, kick, bind wound. My sk had bash, taunt, bind wound, and spells. My shaman had bash, forage, bind wound and spells. Etc.
While I would prefer the 8 spells as a separate entity to class skills. I think this will provide more balance and it's better than 500 spells on my ui. It's also nothing eq vets are not used too and really will be all we need with the new action combat.
I remember on p99 thinking, I wish I had more involvement than sitting here pulling, auto attack, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, pull, auto attack, 1, 1, 1, etc. this is it. I've played classic eq within the past 2 years pretty consistent. Eqn is shaping up to be what I wanted without changing too much.
agree
for 5 years, (1999-2004), my enchanter had 8 spell slots
for 2.5 years, (1999-2001), my caster had 4 abilities
my abilities? beg, sense heading, bind wound, fishing
AA did not exist until Shadows of Luclin (some AA could be hotkeyed)
SOE didnt expand caster spell slots until the GoD expansion, could spend aa to get 2 more spell slots
Originally posted by tkreep In normal mmos you still just be in a rotation around 6-8 skills in combat.
You know the difference between a rotation and situational skills right?
You see that UI? Yeah his rotation is 6 to 8 skils, but he also has about 20 other utility skills there that can be used when the situation requires it.
No sadly most these people do not understand that.
But I kind of worried that SOE would be building this game with the console port in mind and the heavy restriction on skills is a good sign of it to me.... noticed before the flame I said to me showing its my opinion.
Another example of good skill design. Just because I praise such things.
Counterattack Block->Counter Knock-back when used while standing still. Continuous blocking when used while moving. Once activated, skill icon swaps to Crippling Throw until block duration expires. Crippling Throw is a LoS snare and Projectile finisher
8 skill slots is fine with me. What would definitelly piss me off is if they only have 8 skills on a character. As long as i have 400 skills to choose from at any given time im ok with freely choosing any 8 combination i want. No cookie cutter builds, no rotation based builds, more player skill based combat, and less hotbars on screen make me happy.
WIth that said, im worried about limiting to "4 weapon skills and 4 utilities". I hope they add all 8 weapon skills, and then 4 class specific utilities on the F1-F4 buttons.
And be able to keybind every button freely.
keybinds will surely be available, who doesn't add that in todays market?
Thing is those weapon skills are pretty boring, just like GW2 they made it like every thief was pretty much the same. You would know exactly how it worked and how to counter since everyone ran the most efficient builds and not all weapons could reach that level etc etc.
GW2 does not have 400 skills to choose from. Like i said, as long as there is a huge pool of skills to choose from i am ok with having a small hotbar of weapon skills. Imagine the same system from GW2 but add 400 skills to choose from. That insta kills the possibility of everyone being the same. Like TSW did, 7 skills but 500 to choose from. Just implemented in a much better way that those ones did.
8 skill slots is fine with me. What would definitelly piss me off is if they only have 8 skills on a character. As long as i have 400 skills to choose from at any given time im ok with freely choosing any 8 combination i want. No cookie cutter builds, no rotation based builds, more player skill based combat, and less hotbars on screen make me happy.
WIth that said, im worried about limiting to "4 weapon skills and 4 utilities". I hope they add all 8 weapon skills, and then 4 class specific utilities on the F1-F4 buttons.
And be able to keybind every button freely.
keybinds will surely be available, who doesn't add that in todays market?
Thing is those weapon skills are pretty boring, just like GW2 they made it like every thief was pretty much the same. You would know exactly how it worked and how to counter since everyone ran the most efficient builds and not all weapons could reach that level etc etc.
GW2 does not have 400 skills to choose from. Like i said, as long as there is a huge pool of skills to choose from i am ok with havind a small hotbar o weapon skills. Imagine the same system from GW2 but add 400 skills to choose from. That insta kills the possibility of everyone being the same. Like TSW did, 7 skills but 500 to choose from. Just implemented in a much better way that those ones did.
Honestly, still weak. GW was far superior over GW2 when it came to builds. I would be happy with that, however they really just have to go down the path of copying the weapon skill crap.
Seems like people should be comparing the skill system to TSW or GW1 rather than GW2. GW2 actually has much more than 10 skills on your action bar through weapon swapping, attunement swapping, and utility skill usage (with kits, conjured weapons, and such). An elementalist could have 30 or more skills available in combat.
Originally posted by djazzy An elementalist could have 30 or more skills available in combat.
Is true, an elementalist can have up to 41 abilities during a fight, despite the fact that they cannot weapon swap like other professions. It's crazy. XD
8 skill slots is fine with me. What would definitelly piss me off is if they only have 8 skills on a character. As long as i have 400 skills to choose from at any given time im ok with freely choosing any 8 combination i want. No cookie cutter builds, no rotation based builds, more player skill based combat, and less hotbars on screen make me happy.
WIth that said, im worried about limiting to "4 weapon skills and 4 utilities". I hope they add all 8 weapon skills, and then 4 class specific utilities on the F1-F4 buttons.
And be able to keybind every button freely.
keybinds will surely be available, who doesn't add that in todays market?
Thing is those weapon skills are pretty boring, just like GW2 they made it like every thief was pretty much the same. You would know exactly how it worked and how to counter since everyone ran the most efficient builds and not all weapons could reach that level etc etc.
GW2 does not have 400 skills to choose from. Like i said, as long as there is a huge pool of skills to choose from i am ok with havind a small hotbar o weapon skills. Imagine the same system from GW2 but add 400 skills to choose from. That insta kills the possibility of everyone being the same. Like TSW did, 7 skills but 500 to choose from. Just implemented in a much better way that those ones did.
Honestly, still weak. GW was far superior over GW2 when it came to builds. I would be happy with that, however they really just have to go down the path of copying the weapon skill crap.
GW1 is a good example as well. plenty of good skills, small hotbar, you pick what you want and make your own playstyle.
Originally posted by Rockniss It just so happens to work well with controllers. I guess that happened accidentally. Coincidentally PS4 launches this year. ( Rockniss scratches his head, a question mark appears above his head, suddenly a light bulb appears and he smiles) I think I know why there are 8 skill slots everyone!!!
Was that the same reason for GW2 and Neverwinter since they are PC exclusive? because in FFXIV you can have up to 32 active skills for the gamepad.
The two games you mentioned as not next gen games, they are ok by todays standards and before the Eqnext reveal I would have easily put them on par to strike a deal with Microsoft to diversify the xbox one, but after the eq reveal it would be a waste of time. Who knows we may still see GW2 or Neverwinter on console, I would consider Neverwinter, but GW2 is just to blah, I wouldnt bank on seeing them come to console though especially after what we all just saw.
8 skill slots is fine with me. What would definitelly piss me off is if they only have 8 skills on a character. As long as i have 400 skills to choose from at any given time im ok with freely choosing any 8 combination i want. No cookie cutter builds, no rotation based builds, more player skill based combat, and less hotbars on screen make me happy.
WIth that said, im worried about limiting to "4 weapon skills and 4 utilities". I hope they add all 8 weapon skills, and then 4 class specific utilities on the F1-F4 buttons.
And be able to keybind every button freely.
keybinds will surely be available, who doesn't add that in todays market?
Thing is those weapon skills are pretty boring, just like GW2 they made it like every thief was pretty much the same. You would know exactly how it worked and how to counter since everyone ran the most efficient builds and not all weapons could reach that level etc etc.
GW2 does not have 400 skills to choose from. Like i said, as long as there is a huge pool of skills to choose from i am ok with having a small hotbar of weapon skills. Imagine the same system from GW2 but add 400 skills to choose from. That insta kills the possibility of everyone being the same. Like TSW did, 7 skills but 500 to choose from. Just implemented in a much better way that those ones did.
Using TSW is really bad example. All ARs used the same skills. Same with sword etc, In TSW combat was horrid I used 2 buttons at the most. Sometimes just 1 unless I overpulled too many mobs. Yeah we need it to be far different then TSW and GW2.
Originally posted by Kyleran I'm not a fan of this design, but the decision has been made, likely to ensure good playability on consoles.
I'll have to adapt assuming other elements of the game interest me.
^ This. Although my choice to adapt may be dependent on my willingness to buy. I may or may not try it . The whole console thing kills most games for me for the most part.
Originally posted by vorpal28 original EQ had limited slots to, it forced you to make choices and oh wow maybe have some skill at playing...
True! I personally don't have a problem with limited number, just not sure they hit the sweet spot with this particular 4/4. I'm thinking it wasn't that they were going back to their roots so much as catering to the "console mindset". I desperately hope this game hasn't been designed with a "console mindset".
I don't like being able to switch constantly based on the situation. I feel like I won't become attached to my character because it won't have an identity.
The first 4 are weapon skills which can be enhanced/modified using crafted items in the weapon slots.
The last 4 are your class skills. These can be changed as and when you like from any skill you find from over 40 classes. You can switch them out as often as you like, without penalty when you are out of combat.
Stop whining about stuff you do not understand and isnt even fully implemented into their alpha yet.
GW1 is a good example as well. plenty of good skills, small hotbar, you pick what you want and make your own playstyle.
i loved the GW1 hotbar
you were limited to 8 active skills but hundreds (thousands?) of skills to pick from
it was a balancing nightmare for anet tho
Yes GW1 was amazing in that regard, when I played it I used to regard it as the ultimate MMO in terms of builds and skills because it was so varied. Playing one combo of classes could mean so many different things.
Originally posted by vorpal28 original EQ had limited slots to, it forced you to make choices and oh wow maybe have some skill at playing...
True! I personally don't have a problem with limited number, just not sure they hit the sweet spot with this particular 4/4. I'm thinking it wasn't that they were going back to their roots so much as catering to the "console mindset". I desperately hope this game hasn't been designed with a "console mindset".
Was GW2 and Neverwinter made with a console mind set? Even if it was a console mindset that doesnt mean it has to be restricted to 8 active skills, since FFXIV ARR you can slot up to 32 active skills for the gamepad.
Originally posted by vorpal28 original EQ had limited slots to, it forced you to make choices and oh wow maybe have some skill at playing...
True! I personally don't have a problem with limited number, just not sure they hit the sweet spot with this particular 4/4. I'm thinking it wasn't that they were going back to their roots so much as catering to the "console mindset". I desperately hope this game hasn't been designed with a "console mindset".
Sadly it appears that is definitely the mindset they are going for in my opinion.
Maybe if they upped it to 4 weapon attacks and 8 character abilities it would be slightly better. They stated over 40 classes you can find.... what is the use when you can only pick 4 skills from all of them.
Comments
And they haven't shown how much depth a skill might have. I've already posted an example of a poorly designed skill and a well designed skill in these types of topics.
omg, someone else on these forums who has played and recognized excellent skill design.
8 skill slots is fine with me. What would definitelly piss me off is if they only have 8 skills on a character. As long as i have 400 skills to choose from at any given time im ok with freely choosing any 8 combination i want. No cookie cutter builds, no rotation based builds, more player skill based combat, and less hotbars on screen make me happy.
WIth that said, im worried about limiting to "4 weapon skills and 4 utilities". I hope they add all 8 weapon skills, and then 4 class specific utilities on the F1-F4 buttons.
And be able to keybind every button freely.
Is it a competition?
How can anyone answer when we dont know about the action combat in detail, and how the AI, or even the pvp in the game.
However, in games like FPS where you only have two or 3 different abilties. The FPS corsair, gernade throw, or the knife... its very engaging. So if people find that fun, then maybe from the same or similar minded group they can easily find a similar twictch based and situational combat system fun.
I am concerned that having it twitch based like PS2 would mean that ping is important since there is no targeting a character.
But, if less abilities can be fun, then it should be more situational and possibly more twitch based than traditional MMOs.
So maybe an archer class can have an aim ability, and the abilities or some of them for example add a bonus to the aim attack. I think that would be very fun personally, but my ping is horrible normally, so I would not benefit form that... but if I could enjoy it without ping issues... I think that would be fun, since it also tap into a skill I honed a long time ago but have not since practised in almost a decade.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
keybinds will surely be available, who doesn't add that in todays market?
Thing is those weapon skills are pretty boring, just like GW2 they made it like every thief was pretty much the same. You would know exactly how it worked and how to counter since everyone ran the most efficient builds and not all weapons could reach that level etc etc.
No but the people who I responded to said GW2 was the 2nd most successful MMO or some crap based on the 'fact' of another thread where stated GW2 has 2.5 mil users weekly blabla.
T
agree
for 5 years, (1999-2004), my enchanter had 8 spell slots
for 2.5 years, (1999-2001), my caster had 4 abilities
my abilities? beg, sense heading, bind wound, fishing
AA did not exist until Shadows of Luclin (some AA could be hotkeyed)
SOE didnt expand caster spell slots until the GoD expansion, could spend aa to get 2 more spell slots
EQ2 fan sites
No sadly most these people do not understand that.
But I kind of worried that SOE would be building this game with the console port in mind and the heavy restriction on skills is a good sign of it to me.... noticed before the flame I said to me showing its my opinion.
Another example of good skill design.
Just because I praise such things.
Counterattack
Block->Counter Knock-back when used while standing still.
Continuous blocking when used while moving.
Once activated, skill icon swaps to Crippling Throw until block duration expires.
Crippling Throw is a LoS snare and Projectile finisher
GW2 does not have 400 skills to choose from. Like i said, as long as there is a huge pool of skills to choose from i am ok with having a small hotbar of weapon skills. Imagine the same system from GW2 but add 400 skills to choose from. That insta kills the possibility of everyone being the same. Like TSW did, 7 skills but 500 to choose from. Just implemented in a much better way that those ones did.
Honestly, still weak. GW was far superior over GW2 when it came to builds. I would be happy with that, however they really just have to go down the path of copying the weapon skill crap.
Is true, an elementalist can have up to 41 abilities during a fight, despite the fact that they cannot weapon swap like other professions. It's crazy. XD
GW1 is a good example as well. plenty of good skills, small hotbar, you pick what you want and make your own playstyle.
The two games you mentioned as not next gen games, they are ok by todays standards and before the Eqnext reveal I would have easily put them on par to strike a deal with Microsoft to diversify the xbox one, but after the eq reveal it would be a waste of time. Who knows we may still see GW2 or Neverwinter on console, I would consider Neverwinter, but GW2 is just to blah, I wouldnt bank on seeing them come to console though especially after what we all just saw.
Using TSW is really bad example. All ARs used the same skills. Same with sword etc, In TSW combat was horrid I used 2 buttons at the most. Sometimes just 1 unless I overpulled too many mobs. Yeah we need it to be far different then TSW and GW2.
^ This. Although my choice to adapt may be dependent on my willingness to buy. I may or may not try it . The whole console thing kills most games for me for the most part.
i loved the GW1 hotbar
you were limited to 8 active skills but hundreds (thousands?) of skills to pick from
it was a balancing nightmare for anet tho
EQ2 fan sites
True! I personally don't have a problem with limited number, just not sure they hit the sweet spot with this particular 4/4. I'm thinking it wasn't that they were going back to their roots so much as catering to the "console mindset". I desperately hope this game hasn't been designed with a "console mindset".
Play GW2. The skills are similar.
The first 4 are weapon skills which can be enhanced/modified using crafted items in the weapon slots.
The last 4 are your class skills. These can be changed as and when you like from any skill you find from over 40 classes. You can switch them out as often as you like, without penalty when you are out of combat.
Stop whining about stuff you do not understand and isnt even fully implemented into their alpha yet.
Yes GW1 was amazing in that regard, when I played it I used to regard it as the ultimate MMO in terms of builds and skills because it was so varied. Playing one combo of classes could mean so many different things.
Was GW2 and Neverwinter made with a console mind set? Even if it was a console mindset that doesnt mean it has to be restricted to 8 active skills, since FFXIV ARR you can slot up to 32 active skills for the gamepad.
Sadly it appears that is definitely the mindset they are going for in my opinion.
Maybe if they upped it to 4 weapon attacks and 8 character abilities it would be slightly better. They stated over 40 classes you can find.... what is the use when you can only pick 4 skills from all of them.