This is just me, but I don't go to movies/read comics/play online games and worry about how many of a certain "minority" are in it. I do those things to get away from all the politically correctness that has taken over the USA. And before you ask, yes I'm a white Male which in this day and age seams to be the worst thing you can be. The best would be a black pregnant lesbian. But I degress, It doesn't matter to me how many of what race are in something as long as the story is good and I have a good time. I don't even notice race/gender any more. Hell, when I saw Empire Strikes Back(in 1980), it didn't matter to me that Lando was black, just that he was an interesting character in the film.
If I can't make a character that looks somewhat like me, I don't play the game or give the company money.
That said, I don't carry a banner saying that a company has to offer such human color range in their game. It's their game. If they don't realize way more people of color are pouring into MMO gaming every year, that's their loss. It's a basic fact that humans are the most played race in MMOs. It's also basic psychology that the majority of folks making a "character" in a game want that character to reflect themselves for the most part, but with "better looking" body upgrades. Like photo shopping a picture of themselves.
Unfortunately there still is the misconception that there aren't many folks of color playing MMOs. You can see it in some comments in this thread and heavily throughout this site and others. Many of the development teams only feature 1 or maybe 2 black folk, and those folks probably feel they'd get mislabeled if they championed a wider color palette, even if they were only doing it for the sake of more cosmetic options (something you see gamers clamor for all the freaking time).
So, again, no, I don't expect a game to include my tone on their color palette, and if it's a game I'm really interested in and I don't see it I won't hesitate to ask for it in a non pushy manner. Ultimately it's up to the company to define their vision and if they don't see my hue in it, then I move on to the next game.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Why would blacks figure predominantly as the main characters though. There is a reason they are called 'minorities'. If they were the predominant race, it would make sense that main characters would be black, but they're not.
Blacks are also probably not the predominant creators, producers, distributors or financiers within the gaming industry. Most that I am thinking of off the top of my head are white and some are Asian. So again, it's not surprising Blacks are under represented.
People make a big deal if a white guy puts on make up to look black, even if it's for drama class. Seems like a white guy playing a black character could also be racist if you want to inject that kind of irrational sensitivity into the discussion.
Personally, I'm multiracial. I see both sides. Whites make games with white protagonists. Asians make games with Asian protagonists. Maybe Blacks should start making games with Black protagonists and stop expecting everyone else to do it for them.
You don't have to be a certain ethnicity to make protagonists of said ethnicity. What you said there is just plain silly. That and your wording is painting a wide swath over people. I have been on MMO game forums for as long or maybe longer than you and I have never seen anyone who self identified as black/african american/african communicate they "expect everyone else to do it for them."
Indeed your comments that you "see both sides" have me wondering how you narrowed it down to two sides and also (since you qualified it with "multiracial") which sides are you seeing. Your comments, for sure, do not reflect the "black" perspective, even in the majority, as it relates to this topic. I know quite a few folks over at the Massively site that would certainly disagree with you in reference to that last comment.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Originally posted by galphar This is just me, but I don't go to movies/read comics/play online games and worry about how many of a certain "minority" are in it. I do those things to get away from all the politically correctness that has taken over the USA. And before you ask, yes I'm a white Male which in this day and age seams to be the worst thing you can be. The best would be a black pregnant lesbian. But I degress, It doesn't matter to me how many of what race are in something as long as the story is good and I have a good time. I don't even notice race/gender any more. Hell, when I saw Empire Strikes Back(in 1980), it didn't matter to me that Lando was black, just that he was an interesting character in the film.
LOL, do you actually really believe that statement? I mean I agree political correctness can go too far sometimes but white male is pretty much the worst thing you can be in the west except....you know...every other possible gender/ethnicity combination. Just look at projected income for children of different races and genders. Yeah us white males sure have it tough!
Originally posted by Betaguy I disagree, every MMO I have played I have made a black human with an afro too I might add. Not sure what MMO's you are referring to.
This ^ ... How many MMO's have you seen with Chinese, Mexican, Spanish, Japanese, Filipino, etc... ??? I've seen TONS of black characters, not many of the above
We live in a time, in the United States at least since most of Europe and Asia is still what it is, where there is a real need for a more racial and culturally inclusive vision for fantasy worlds in our entertainment media. The problem is that creating such a vision requires thinking outside the box we have established to a degree that it breaks comfort. People pick up medieval western inspired fantasy easily and are familiar with the tropes and fixtures. Breaking them leads to a failure in the suspension of disbelief (that a person of color could walk down the street in ancient Europe or Asia without remark) based on what we know and have been taught causing that fantasy to fall apart rather than originating in any form of racism. This is true of World of Warcraft and similar titles.
Lore development often takes the easiest road and the simplest visions sell. The question really is how to break that cycle and introduce something new that people can grasp onto and then get it into circulation. From my perspective it would take a company willing to hire an actual group of creative writers to generate a more encompassing lore and history than most games are willing to support when the core developers actually think they are capable of doing the basics themselves and feel the money should go into combat aspects of play. When you are focusing on creating a vehicle for just loot and level action culturally and racially inclusive lore doesn't seem that important does it? Particularly when every likely player already gets Tolkien or D&D and you can riff on it.
Hmmm... Interestingly you could accuse the Elder Scrolls series of making some concessions to creating a cultural and racial melting pot but in the name of conflict and presentation they didn't actually go far enough in mixing the fixtures over time. They simply left the Imperials ruling everyone individually by force of arms rather than creating a unified culture with hold out ethnic pockets. A good group of writers could go so much farther creating a grand vision but it might be too complex for the average player to get easily. But just perhaps I do the average man an injustice. Some one really should try creating a fantasy melting pot.
I think a lot of it is just because so much traditional fantasy is based around the northwestern parts of Europe, especially the British Islands. The closest you get to dark skin in that part of history are the Spanish. As such, truly dark skinned people are known mostly as far off savages in Africa or the exotic people of the Middle East.
So when crafting a fantasy setting based on the classic medieval Europe, it makes sense to not have a lot of black people.
I explained this in the OP.
Thats a common misconception about history. Historically, the Africans known as the Moor, invaded Europe and controlled many parts of Europe for close to a thousand years. There were many Black as in dark Humans in the middle ages of knightdom.. There are even Castles in Africa, which is where Europe masonry got their masonry from, were the African moorish invaders.
Just to point out, Moors were an arabic nation and while some of them had darker skin tones most of them had the same skin tone as the Mediterranean region Europeans they lived next to.
Just to correct something of your misconception. Arabic as a term itself means "Non White" or "Non Caucasian". Modern Day Arabs are descendents of African-Europe mixing.
The Moors that invaded Europe, had their main base in West Africa, modern day Senegal Africa. Aka some of the darkest of the land.
Also the term Moor means Black. that wasnt even their name of course, but thats what they were referred to as "The Blacks".
I think a lot of it is just because so much traditional fantasy is based around the northwestern parts of Europe, especially the British Islands. The closest you get to dark skin in that part of history are the Spanish. As such, truly dark skinned people are known mostly as far off savages in Africa or the exotic people of the Middle East.
So when crafting a fantasy setting based on the classic medieval Europe, it makes sense to not have a lot of black people.
I explained this in the OP.
Thats a common misconception about history. Historically, the Africans known as the Moor, invaded Europe and controlled many parts of Europe for close to a thousand years. There were many Black as in dark Humans in the middle ages of knightdom.. There are even Castles in Africa, which is where Europe masonry got their masonry from, were the African moorish invaders.
You make a mistake in thinking that you are dealing with issues of actual history rather than the romanticized cultural myths and tall tales used for a fantasy. When people conjure images of medieval European fantasy they think of King Arthur and his Knights, great dragons attacking castles, holy men and evil witches, all taken from the tall tales and cultural myths of the time. They do not think of the actual historical Moor invasions or any of that unless it's to develop a kind of Orc to slaughter based on the cultural myth stories. Our entertainment today, is an outgrowth of the entertainment from yesterday and medieval fantasy is culturally specific. Following that line of thought, the moors have no place. I might feel that needs to change to be more inclusive but it is what it is and perhaps loses some charm in becoming too real.
MMOExposed, I think your point is valid, however the the example of LOTR is actually invalidating your point rather than helping it.
Any reasonably knowledge in LOTR lore will know that in Middle-Earth history the swarthy and dark skinned people were influenced by Melkor (Morgoth the great enemy) since the dawn of time and thus they fear the light. The "fair" skinned people are from Numenor breed, the once that fought with the Elves during the first age (and in fact, saved the Elves in many ways) and thus why they are what they are (not to mention that the Numenor or high men actually has Elven blood because their ancestors are the children of Beren and Luthien that's why their appearance is more fair than even the "middle men" such as the Dale folks and the people of Rohan, and their lives are actually much longer (high men can actually live up to 200-300 years of age).
It has nothing to do with prejudice, racism or races. It was just the way that the story was designed.- and the story was designed using Nordic lores as a reference.
If you look at other fantasy settings such as Conan, Pathfinder and Forgotten Realms there are plenty of heroes of other ethnicities.
If a developer wants to promote his white man only fantasy, it better be well written, believable and single player. I will not support that in an MMORPG where I'm supposed to make my own character and create my own story.
What's ACTUALLY infuriating is the kind of outrage and nastiness that manifests when ethnic actors or characters are included into these universes. It's disgusting.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Originally posted by MMOExposed I explained this in the OP.
Thats a common misconception about history. Historically, the Africans known as the Moor, invaded Europe and controlled many parts of Europe for close to a thousand years. There were many Black as in dark Humans in the middle ages of knightdom.. There are even Castles in Africa, which is where Europe masonry got their masonry from, were the African moorish invaders.
Originally posted by MMOExposed The Moors that invaded Europe, had their main base in West Africa, modern day Senegal Africa. Aka some of the darkest of the land. Also the term Moor means Black. that wasnt even their name of course, but thats what they were referred to as "The Blacks".
MMOE, while I do think a multicultural MMO/fantasy setting would represent the current society better I am sorry to disappoint you. There isn't some conspiracy as you seem to think to "bleach" the medieval europe.
There were a few black people in europe, and yes, mainly of "Moor" descent, but keep in mind in medieval Europe nearly everyone of african origin was considered "Moor". And as I said, the majority of Moors were NOT sub-Saharan Africa black as you seem to think. In northern europe and co, Britain and all it's ex-colonies included, the term "black" until the 18th century could mean anyone with a slightly darker olive complexion. Every modern day Mexican would certainly be considered black.
It's not until the 1500s with it's slave trade and colonialism that black people had a larger presence in europe.
PS: What you might find interesting is that there were black knights in Europe.
Originally posted by nethaniah
Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
I think a lot of it is just because so much traditional fantasy is based around the northwestern parts of Europe, especially the British Islands. The closest you get to dark skin in that part of history are the Spanish. As such, truly dark skinned people are known mostly as far off savages in Africa or the exotic people of the Middle East.
So when crafting a fantasy setting based on the classic medieval Europe, it makes sense to not have a lot of black people.
I explained this in the OP.
Thats a common misconception about history. Historically, the Africans known as the Moor, invaded Europe and controlled many parts of Europe for close to a thousand years. There were many Black as in dark Humans in the middle ages of knightdom.. There are even Castles in Africa, which is where Europe masonry got their masonry from, were the African moorish invaders.
Please link for me this 1000 years of Mooish occupation of Europe, or the many parts or Europe.
I think youre mistaking parts of Italy and more specifically Spain as Europe. Just so you know that is only a very small part of Europe.
Please dont tell me youre getting youre history from here, LOL
They held Spain for less than 700 years, parts of Italy for less 2 years and invaded France and may have held a few French towns for about a year.
Thats it, sorry but you have failed basic history.
And looking into it further by the looks of the artwork that the Moors left behind in Spain they were of Berber Morocco descent (Middle Eastern), not black African.
The history of Morocco where the invasion and occupation of many parts of Europe took place, according to you, was ruled by the Berbers at the time.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
Originally posted by jdizzle2k13 It would be interesting to see more black/Hispanic/Asian NPCs but I can't fault devs for not including them in a large amount. I think GW2 did a good job with character diversity.
Guild Wars 2 has the entire continent of Elona witch is inspired by Africa. It does a great job with diversity. There are a lot of MMO's that give you the option to make characters that aren't white but that's as far as it goes sometimes. And even then its just a skin change. Its refreshing seeing characters other than white actually having a place in RPG's and MMORPGs beyond the character select screen.
...like when I go to a rock concert, I see few of me,
...when I go to various cons, I see few of me
...when I'm in many places that appeals to my nerdiness I see few of me
... but I do see many of them... whites, asians, hispanics, in that order...
I read through a few pages and I only saw one comment that touched on the fact that
... many blacks don't play mmos, or games other than madden or nba2k series...
... in many low budget mmos, or those that have predesigned characters with a small amount of customization options... they're only thinking about who's gonna play this game, not who may play...
My fav. mmo was ffxi, and I played an elvaan, and b/c im really a fan of ffxi, i havent played many other mmos, wonder if ppl will get that lol
...in ffxiv which Im very dissappointed in, is an example of next gen mmos allowing color palettes, which is the simple fix, it was in pso2 as well(which i abhor) so as you can see, this is a non issue w/ regards to creation as palettes seem to be the standard for top tier mmos
im not sure if the op is black, but this is nothing for us that do play mmos to make a big fuss over
there are bigger problems in games such as mmos going single player, pushing the f2p lovers out as they create a cold war feeling(they're everywhere!!!), and much much more
See, I've been playing MMO's for a long, long time. And I have been black even longer. And since the very beginning I have been one of those "where the black people at!" kind of guys. This was not because I felt like a racist, not because I felt like black people deserved to be everywhere and in every story, because I do not and I will get to that more later, but more because in the games that I was playing, games with elves, dwarves, superheroes, and all kinds of other crazy, out of this world kind of stuff, I saw absolutely no reason why there shouldn't have been an option to be black.
See, influences are important. A lot of us are influenced by things that we aren't even aware of. And what you have been influenced by often shows in the things that you do whether you realize it or not. When developing a video game a white artist is not necessarily thinking about what would make everyone happy. What they are thinking about is what would make THEM (the artist) or their friends happy, and if they are white and their friends are white then you are going to get a predominantly white video game.
I don't really hate on it but to be honest I'd rather put my money into a game where I get to play dress up with a doll that looks more like me. And that is where it all becomes unfair. See, everybody pays to play these games. You pay with your time, your effort, and your money, so it is becomes that by the unintended deference to the lighter skinned human that the darker skinned human gets offered an inferior product.
There's no discount for not being able to play a black guy and yet the black dude often only gets one hairstyle or one set of features. I mean really, the influences that motivate these guys really, really begin to show.
And so, as my theory goes, the whiter the white guy wants to be the blacker the black guy will feel compelled to be and all of a sudden you got black guys who can no longer feel good about playing an elf or a dwarf, or a troll or anything else because they HAVE to play that black guy in the game for fear that if they don't the evil white developers will just fade them away completely.
Another side effect is that you now have the "Can't be happy" black guy who can't appreciate how awesome it is to have the Everquest Erudite, long head and all, because they just HAPPEN to be black, keeping in mind that it is and was always also entirely possible to roll up a basic black human from Qeynos or Freeport.
To shorten this though, I don't see the lack of options for black people as so much racism (although I did when I was younger and can easily see how a young person today might come to that conclusion) as a marked lack of consideration brought on by a society that, to this day, still struggles with racist influences even though the individuals themselves may not actually be racists.
Long story short, everyone wants to have fun. If you are in business to entertain then you should build your entertainment for as many different kinds of people as there are. This doesn't mean that you have to inject people of a certain type into stories where they should not be, for instance that black mother superior in Nazi Austria in the most recent made for TV play of the Sound of Music, or the Blond Hercules that you will see hit movie theatre's this summer, or likewise white Moses, Blond Jesus, or Sir Ben Kingsley as freaking Ghandi for christ sakes (go google a real picture of Ghandi in color and you will see what I am talking about).
All of this behavior comes from a time when it was better to pay a white guy to pretend to be a person of color while telling stories about people of color, and it is no more proper than it is to have a black nun in Nazi Austria no matter how good her voice is (and it was). It just doesn't fit.
But here is the perfect example of how, if you don't really think to care, you won't. And just to say that I am just as guilty of it as anyone else.
I played Age of Wushu with absolutely no problem looking at all of those white looking Chinese people. The game is about feudal China after all, or so I was willing to tell myself before I actually started to think about it. So seriously, was there NO Korean brothers hanging out in feudal China? No Indians? Only the whitest Vietnamese ever?
See, that's what us brothers call "that shit" when we say things like "See, that's that shit going on right there." Chinese guy wants to be like the white guy and so he alienates everyone around him like the white guy does. Tries to take credit for everything in the world when some of the most popular ideas ever to come out of their culture was created by a darker than lilly white asian, or did you think that Buddha was a white guy too?
So you see, any of us can be guilty of it, but we all, all of us, must strive not to be. I know that its funny to talk about our differences, and to make each other mad. But honestly, if I was running a business and I knew that there was something that I was doing that was alienating a really large portion of my customer base, I would stop doing that, and then maybe I wouldn't have to do so many other stupid things to stay afloat.
Again, and to sum all of it up. I don't need black Santa. What I need is for a brother to get paid when you want to tell a story about Moses. I need a Mexican to get paid when you want to tell a story about a Mariachi. And I don't want to hear any of this "Oh, the Spanish guy was the most talented person we could get for the role" bs either because the simple fact of the matter is that it takes opportunity to build talent, and if you are never giving people the opportunity you are never going to FIND the talent.
Maybe once that starts to happen properly I will be able to honestly call you all my brothers. But we have to change our influences first, and that change really doesn't start here, it starts in Hollywood where they will make the role of Nelson Mandela be portrayed by Anthony Hopkins if they thought it would put more white asses in the seats.
I've said it before and I will say it again. If I were white I would be truly offended by the fact that people thought that my racism had to be placated to that extent. But what do I know. Maybe that really is the fact and we just don't talk about it.
Special Note DC comics has done the most for Diversity in the entertainment media of anyone else I know. Check out titles/episodes like "Young Justice" and you will see what it really looks like to have almost everyone represented.
Funny conversation from the beginning of Pawn Shop Chronicles where they are arguing about the black santa in front of the shop.
The black guy - See I knew it! You don't like him cause he's black.
The white guy - Well that's cause Santa is white.
The black guy - Santa is a fictional character, he can be whatever color he wants to be.
The white guy - Charlie Brown is a fictional character too, but you can just have some little black kid in a yellow shirt with the curly thing on top of his bald head come out and say he Charlie Brown.
Made me laugh cause it's true. But then we never needed that in Charlie Brown anyway because we always had Franklin. And that's why Charlie Brown stands the test of time. It was not an inferior product.
I really could care less about fantasy races in game lore. Let's be honest...our race has very little interest in the genre as it is, and it's not because the lack of black heroes/villians...
One more thing, and only because I really want to drive home how much thought I have given what I have said here.
True Story.
Anyone who ever read my blog would know that I used to work for fairly prominent software company. Well one year that company released a game, which I will not disclose, about Helicopters, and a lot of the guys in the studio were asked to come down to the green screen room to get their pictures taken in order to be pilots in the game and just about every guy in the place was asked except for me and the only other two black guys in the studio.
So of course I made a stink about it. The other guys, one a developer and another a QA guy like myself, didn't want to make a fuss (because they wanted to keep their jobs) but I was like "Damn that". So I asked the question. "Why didn't you guys call any of us black guys down for pictures?" The answer, BS. First it was because I was too big to be a helicopter pilot. I followed this up by asking why they didn't ask the other two guys who were in far better shape than I was to be in the pictures. Then the answer became "Because there are no black helicopter pilots". To which I responded by explaining to them that not only were they incorrect but that I had actually met the very first one, in person! (Joseph Harrison, google him.)
So with all of that said they had no other choice but to let us take our pictures and be pilots in the game. It was a small victory but it was a victory, and so any black dude that ever played that weak assed Helicopter Sim at least got to play it as a black pilot, one of two (the dev still didn't have his pic taken).
And just for the sake of putting it out there to hell with it, the game is Gunship! by Microprose Software and if you ever want to see what I look like you can find it and look at the pilots and there I will be. One small step for gamerkind.
So I am not just coming from out of the blue with all of this ranting. Just saying. I have inside knowledge on what makes some of these guys tick and it's not really as dark and evil as you think, it just comes from a dark and evil place.
I really could care less about fantasy races in game lore. Let's be honest...our race has very little interest in the genre as it is, and it's not because the lack of black heroes/villians...
Here's the thing, you say that but just in the last 10 posts here there have been three. And I haven't even read through the rest of the string to see how many others have identified themselves.
The simple theory here being that you don't THINK that a lot of us are here because you don't SEE a lot of us around. That's that shit right there. You think you are the only black dude that likes MMO's. It's not true. There are a lot of every kind of person playing MMO's, just like there are a lot of white guys playing Madden and a lot of Latinos playing Sims.
People are people man, there is no "our race" when it comes to anything except a few really wide sweeping generalities.
My best friend is a white dude that would mop the floor with any black dude in here who wants to play some Madden. I'll put him on point with any challenger. And no, he doesn't talk like he's from where a lot of black people live either.
Influences son. They got your head all messed up. And that alone is why this topic is always important.
It's funny, because this is considered a "hot" topic in very few regions of the world. Most people accept other cultures / colors since like... dunno... quite a few decades now.
Then again, i could make black toons in MMOs since i started with EQ1 and earlier in single player games. Also green, purple....
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
It's funny, because this is considered a "hot" topic in very few regions of the world. Most people accept other cultures / colors since like... dunno... quite a few decades now.
I'm trying to get out of this string But that's not really true. Most of the world is as Xenophobic as hell, they are just of one mind about it or adversely, not as able to talk about it as freely as we are here. But that is straying way off topic and so I will leave it to you to figure out how. I'll give you a hint though, imagine that you were in charge of making sure that your race, no matter what race that is, was going to be ok forever and then pick up the Wall Street Journal and see how things are going.
Perspective is everything.
After you do that think about the guy who makes money no matter who wins, the weapon maker, the bitcoin machine hardware maker, Monsanto LOL.
Do this little exercise once a day and I guarantee you will be sick by the end of the week. But don't give up. Because those people are only as powerful as we allow them to be. Learn to live piously, righteously, within your own means, and without a bunch of vices and you can weaken them like nobodies business. Just be aware though, for real, they own your ass. So to weaken them is to ultimately weaken yourself.
The rule goes like this. "If you don't want to be the boss then you are going to have to settle with having a boss. Production does not exist in a void. And that is why we fight." And yeah, I just made that up.
So instead of worrying about every little thing try just living the best life that you can live within it and maybe we can all take just a little bit of satisfaction out of that. And that begins by seeing things clearly.
Other interesting things to look up, since you are on the internet and not doing anything.
Look for the last known photograph of some real Aztec People, then compare that to what you believe an Aztec looks like.
Look for Geoffrey Chaucer, William Shakespeare, Sir Mallory and Herodotus (the father of lies) and see how they took the stories told to them by cultures who adhered to a more verbal tradition, wrote them down, turned the characters white or English, or whatever (cause they did not discriminate on who they did this to), and made bank selling them to entirely different cultures as their own stories. (again, not hating, just saying).
This is the blueprint of Hollywood. The blueprint of literature, the blueprint of all all you've ever known. And this is what helps keep nation fighting nation, race fighting race, and brother fighting brother.
In short, cause it makes good bank for those smart enough, and evil enough, to capitalize on it.
You now, armed with this knowledge, no longer have to be a part of that though. All you have to do is handle your own business and make sure that no one else tricks you into handling theirs.
Now stop thinking about stupid stuff and go play some video games.
Comments
If I can't make a character that looks somewhat like me, I don't play the game or give the company money.
That said, I don't carry a banner saying that a company has to offer such human color range in their game. It's their game. If they don't realize way more people of color are pouring into MMO gaming every year, that's their loss. It's a basic fact that humans are the most played race in MMOs. It's also basic psychology that the majority of folks making a "character" in a game want that character to reflect themselves for the most part, but with "better looking" body upgrades. Like photo shopping a picture of themselves.
Unfortunately there still is the misconception that there aren't many folks of color playing MMOs. You can see it in some comments in this thread and heavily throughout this site and others. Many of the development teams only feature 1 or maybe 2 black folk, and those folks probably feel they'd get mislabeled if they championed a wider color palette, even if they were only doing it for the sake of more cosmetic options (something you see gamers clamor for all the freaking time).
So, again, no, I don't expect a game to include my tone on their color palette, and if it's a game I'm really interested in and I don't see it I won't hesitate to ask for it in a non pushy manner. Ultimately it's up to the company to define their vision and if they don't see my hue in it, then I move on to the next game.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Aloha Mr Hand !
You don't have to be a certain ethnicity to make protagonists of said ethnicity. What you said there is just plain silly. That and your wording is painting a wide swath over people. I have been on MMO game forums for as long or maybe longer than you and I have never seen anyone who self identified as black/african american/african communicate they "expect everyone else to do it for them."
Indeed your comments that you "see both sides" have me wondering how you narrowed it down to two sides and also (since you qualified it with "multiracial") which sides are you seeing. Your comments, for sure, do not reflect the "black" perspective, even in the majority, as it relates to this topic. I know quite a few folks over at the Massively site that would certainly disagree with you in reference to that last comment.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
LOL, do you actually really believe that statement? I mean I agree political correctness can go too far sometimes but white male is pretty much the worst thing you can be in the west except....you know...every other possible gender/ethnicity combination. Just look at projected income for children of different races and genders. Yeah us white males sure have it tough!
This ^ ... How many MMO's have you seen with Chinese, Mexican, Spanish, Japanese, Filipino, etc... ??? I've seen TONS of black characters, not many of the above
Have a good day.
We live in a time, in the United States at least since most of Europe and Asia is still what it is, where there is a real need for a more racial and culturally inclusive vision for fantasy worlds in our entertainment media. The problem is that creating such a vision requires thinking outside the box we have established to a degree that it breaks comfort. People pick up medieval western inspired fantasy easily and are familiar with the tropes and fixtures. Breaking them leads to a failure in the suspension of disbelief (that a person of color could walk down the street in ancient Europe or Asia without remark) based on what we know and have been taught causing that fantasy to fall apart rather than originating in any form of racism. This is true of World of Warcraft and similar titles.
Lore development often takes the easiest road and the simplest visions sell. The question really is how to break that cycle and introduce something new that people can grasp onto and then get it into circulation. From my perspective it would take a company willing to hire an actual group of creative writers to generate a more encompassing lore and history than most games are willing to support when the core developers actually think they are capable of doing the basics themselves and feel the money should go into combat aspects of play. When you are focusing on creating a vehicle for just loot and level action culturally and racially inclusive lore doesn't seem that important does it? Particularly when every likely player already gets Tolkien or D&D and you can riff on it.
Hmmm... Interestingly you could accuse the Elder Scrolls series of making some concessions to creating a cultural and racial melting pot but in the name of conflict and presentation they didn't actually go far enough in mixing the fixtures over time. They simply left the Imperials ruling everyone individually by force of arms rather than creating a unified culture with hold out ethnic pockets. A good group of writers could go so much farther creating a grand vision but it might be too complex for the average player to get easily. But just perhaps I do the average man an injustice. Some one really should try creating a fantasy melting pot.
I explained this in the OP.
Thats a common misconception about history. Historically, the Africans known as the Moor, invaded Europe and controlled many parts of Europe for close to a thousand years. There were many Black as in dark Humans in the middle ages of knightdom.. There are even Castles in Africa, which is where Europe masonry got their masonry from, were the African moorish invaders.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Just to correct something of your misconception. Arabic as a term itself means "Non White" or "Non Caucasian". Modern Day Arabs are descendents of African-Europe mixing.
The Moors that invaded Europe, had their main base in West Africa, modern day Senegal Africa. Aka some of the darkest of the land.
Also the term Moor means Black. that wasnt even their name of course, but thats what they were referred to as "The Blacks".
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
You make a mistake in thinking that you are dealing with issues of actual history rather than the romanticized cultural myths and tall tales used for a fantasy. When people conjure images of medieval European fantasy they think of King Arthur and his Knights, great dragons attacking castles, holy men and evil witches, all taken from the tall tales and cultural myths of the time. They do not think of the actual historical Moor invasions or any of that unless it's to develop a kind of Orc to slaughter based on the cultural myth stories. Our entertainment today, is an outgrowth of the entertainment from yesterday and medieval fantasy is culturally specific. Following that line of thought, the moors have no place. I might feel that needs to change to be more inclusive but it is what it is and perhaps loses some charm in becoming too real.
MMOExposed, I think your point is valid, however the the example of LOTR is actually invalidating your point rather than helping it.
Any reasonably knowledge in LOTR lore will know that in Middle-Earth history the swarthy and dark skinned people were influenced by Melkor (Morgoth the great enemy) since the dawn of time and thus they fear the light. The "fair" skinned people are from Numenor breed, the once that fought with the Elves during the first age (and in fact, saved the Elves in many ways) and thus why they are what they are (not to mention that the Numenor or high men actually has Elven blood because their ancestors are the children of Beren and Luthien that's why their appearance is more fair than even the "middle men" such as the Dale folks and the people of Rohan, and their lives are actually much longer (high men can actually live up to 200-300 years of age).
It has nothing to do with prejudice, racism or races. It was just the way that the story was designed.- and the story was designed using Nordic lores as a reference.
If you look at other fantasy settings such as Conan, Pathfinder and Forgotten Realms there are plenty of heroes of other ethnicities.
If a developer wants to promote his white man only fantasy, it better be well written, believable and single player. I will not support that in an MMORPG where I'm supposed to make my own character and create my own story.
What's ACTUALLY infuriating is the kind of outrage and nastiness that manifests when ethnic actors or characters are included into these universes. It's disgusting.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
MMOE, while I do think a multicultural MMO/fantasy setting would represent the current society better I am sorry to disappoint you. There isn't some conspiracy as you seem to think to "bleach" the medieval europe.
There were a few black people in europe, and yes, mainly of "Moor" descent, but keep in mind in medieval Europe nearly everyone of african origin was considered "Moor". And as I said, the majority of Moors were NOT sub-Saharan Africa black as you seem to think. In northern europe and co, Britain and all it's ex-colonies included, the term "black" until the 18th century could mean anyone with a slightly darker olive complexion. Every modern day Mexican would certainly be considered black.
It's not until the 1500s with it's slave trade and colonialism that black people had a larger presence in europe.
PS: What you might find interesting is that there were black knights in Europe.
Please link for me this 1000 years of Mooish occupation of Europe, or the many parts or Europe.
I think youre mistaking parts of Italy and more specifically Spain as Europe. Just so you know that is only a very small part of Europe.
Please dont tell me youre getting youre history from here, LOL
"The original “knights” of England were Black! --including the knights of King Arthur’s Round Table! That’s why they were called “knights” after the night or darkness of their skin."
They held Spain for less than 700 years, parts of Italy for less 2 years and invaded France and may have held a few French towns for about a year.
Thats it, sorry but you have failed basic history.
And looking into it further by the looks of the artwork that the Moors left behind in Spain they were of Berber Morocco descent (Middle Eastern), not black African.
The history of Morocco where the invasion and occupation of many parts of Europe took place, according to you, was ruled by the Berbers at the time.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
Guild Wars 2 has the entire continent of Elona witch is inspired by Africa. It does a great job with diversity. There are a lot of MMO's that give you the option to make characters that aren't white but that's as far as it goes sometimes. And even then its just a skin change. Its refreshing seeing characters other than white actually having a place in RPG's and MMORPGs beyond the character select screen.
Black guy here... so...
...like when I go to a rock concert, I see few of me,
...when I go to various cons, I see few of me
...when I'm in many places that appeals to my nerdiness I see few of me
... but I do see many of them... whites, asians, hispanics, in that order...
I read through a few pages and I only saw one comment that touched on the fact that
... many blacks don't play mmos, or games other than madden or nba2k series...
... in many low budget mmos, or those that have predesigned characters with a small amount of customization options... they're only thinking about who's gonna play this game, not who may play...
My fav. mmo was ffxi, and I played an elvaan, and b/c im really a fan of ffxi, i havent played many other mmos, wonder if ppl will get that lol
...in ffxiv which Im very dissappointed in, is an example of next gen mmos allowing color palettes, which is the simple fix, it was in pso2 as well(which i abhor) so as you can see, this is a non issue w/ regards to creation as palettes seem to be the standard for top tier mmos
im not sure if the op is black, but this is nothing for us that do play mmos to make a big fuss over
there are bigger problems in games such as mmos going single player, pushing the f2p lovers out as they create a cold war feeling(they're everywhere!!!), and much much more
Just gonna jump in with my two cents then bolt.
See, I've been playing MMO's for a long, long time. And I have been black even longer. And since the very beginning I have been one of those "where the black people at!" kind of guys. This was not because I felt like a racist, not because I felt like black people deserved to be everywhere and in every story, because I do not and I will get to that more later, but more because in the games that I was playing, games with elves, dwarves, superheroes, and all kinds of other crazy, out of this world kind of stuff, I saw absolutely no reason why there shouldn't have been an option to be black.
See, influences are important. A lot of us are influenced by things that we aren't even aware of. And what you have been influenced by often shows in the things that you do whether you realize it or not. When developing a video game a white artist is not necessarily thinking about what would make everyone happy. What they are thinking about is what would make THEM (the artist) or their friends happy, and if they are white and their friends are white then you are going to get a predominantly white video game.
I don't really hate on it but to be honest I'd rather put my money into a game where I get to play dress up with a doll that looks more like me. And that is where it all becomes unfair. See, everybody pays to play these games. You pay with your time, your effort, and your money, so it is becomes that by the unintended deference to the lighter skinned human that the darker skinned human gets offered an inferior product.
There's no discount for not being able to play a black guy and yet the black dude often only gets one hairstyle or one set of features. I mean really, the influences that motivate these guys really, really begin to show.
And so, as my theory goes, the whiter the white guy wants to be the blacker the black guy will feel compelled to be and all of a sudden you got black guys who can no longer feel good about playing an elf or a dwarf, or a troll or anything else because they HAVE to play that black guy in the game for fear that if they don't the evil white developers will just fade them away completely.
Another side effect is that you now have the "Can't be happy" black guy who can't appreciate how awesome it is to have the Everquest Erudite, long head and all, because they just HAPPEN to be black, keeping in mind that it is and was always also entirely possible to roll up a basic black human from Qeynos or Freeport.
To shorten this though, I don't see the lack of options for black people as so much racism (although I did when I was younger and can easily see how a young person today might come to that conclusion) as a marked lack of consideration brought on by a society that, to this day, still struggles with racist influences even though the individuals themselves may not actually be racists.
Long story short, everyone wants to have fun. If you are in business to entertain then you should build your entertainment for as many different kinds of people as there are. This doesn't mean that you have to inject people of a certain type into stories where they should not be, for instance that black mother superior in Nazi Austria in the most recent made for TV play of the Sound of Music, or the Blond Hercules that you will see hit movie theatre's this summer, or likewise white Moses, Blond Jesus, or Sir Ben Kingsley as freaking Ghandi for christ sakes (go google a real picture of Ghandi in color and you will see what I am talking about).
All of this behavior comes from a time when it was better to pay a white guy to pretend to be a person of color while telling stories about people of color, and it is no more proper than it is to have a black nun in Nazi Austria no matter how good her voice is (and it was). It just doesn't fit.
But here is the perfect example of how, if you don't really think to care, you won't. And just to say that I am just as guilty of it as anyone else.
I played Age of Wushu with absolutely no problem looking at all of those white looking Chinese people. The game is about feudal China after all, or so I was willing to tell myself before I actually started to think about it. So seriously, was there NO Korean brothers hanging out in feudal China? No Indians? Only the whitest Vietnamese ever?
See, that's what us brothers call "that shit" when we say things like "See, that's that shit going on right there." Chinese guy wants to be like the white guy and so he alienates everyone around him like the white guy does. Tries to take credit for everything in the world when some of the most popular ideas ever to come out of their culture was created by a darker than lilly white asian, or did you think that Buddha was a white guy too?
So you see, any of us can be guilty of it, but we all, all of us, must strive not to be. I know that its funny to talk about our differences, and to make each other mad. But honestly, if I was running a business and I knew that there was something that I was doing that was alienating a really large portion of my customer base, I would stop doing that, and then maybe I wouldn't have to do so many other stupid things to stay afloat.
Again, and to sum all of it up. I don't need black Santa. What I need is for a brother to get paid when you want to tell a story about Moses. I need a Mexican to get paid when you want to tell a story about a Mariachi. And I don't want to hear any of this "Oh, the Spanish guy was the most talented person we could get for the role" bs either because the simple fact of the matter is that it takes opportunity to build talent, and if you are never giving people the opportunity you are never going to FIND the talent.
Maybe once that starts to happen properly I will be able to honestly call you all my brothers. But we have to change our influences first, and that change really doesn't start here, it starts in Hollywood where they will make the role of Nelson Mandela be portrayed by Anthony Hopkins if they thought it would put more white asses in the seats.
I've said it before and I will say it again. If I were white I would be truly offended by the fact that people thought that my racism had to be placated to that extent. But what do I know. Maybe that really is the fact and we just don't talk about it.
Special Note DC comics has done the most for Diversity in the entertainment media of anyone else I know. Check out titles/episodes like "Young Justice" and you will see what it really looks like to have almost everyone represented.
It looks good.
Ok, I guess that was more like 25 cents. My bad.
Funny conversation from the beginning of Pawn Shop Chronicles where they are arguing about the black santa in front of the shop.
The black guy - See I knew it! You don't like him cause he's black.
The white guy - Well that's cause Santa is white.
The black guy - Santa is a fictional character, he can be whatever color he wants to be.
The white guy - Charlie Brown is a fictional character too, but you can just have some little black kid in a yellow shirt with the curly thing on top of his bald head come out and say he Charlie Brown.
Made me laugh cause it's true. But then we never needed that in Charlie Brown anyway because we always had Franklin. And that's why Charlie Brown stands the test of time. It was not an inferior product.
"You are all going to poop yourselves." BillMurphy
"Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone."
As a black MMOer...
I really could care less about fantasy races in game lore. Let's be honest...our race has very little interest in the genre as it is, and it's not because the lack of black heroes/villians...
One more thing, and only because I really want to drive home how much thought I have given what I have said here.
True Story.
Anyone who ever read my blog would know that I used to work for fairly prominent software company. Well one year that company released a game, which I will not disclose, about Helicopters, and a lot of the guys in the studio were asked to come down to the green screen room to get their pictures taken in order to be pilots in the game and just about every guy in the place was asked except for me and the only other two black guys in the studio.
So of course I made a stink about it. The other guys, one a developer and another a QA guy like myself, didn't want to make a fuss (because they wanted to keep their jobs) but I was like "Damn that". So I asked the question. "Why didn't you guys call any of us black guys down for pictures?" The answer, BS. First it was because I was too big to be a helicopter pilot. I followed this up by asking why they didn't ask the other two guys who were in far better shape than I was to be in the pictures. Then the answer became "Because there are no black helicopter pilots". To which I responded by explaining to them that not only were they incorrect but that I had actually met the very first one, in person! (Joseph Harrison, google him.)
So with all of that said they had no other choice but to let us take our pictures and be pilots in the game. It was a small victory but it was a victory, and so any black dude that ever played that weak assed Helicopter Sim at least got to play it as a black pilot, one of two (the dev still didn't have his pic taken).
And just for the sake of putting it out there to hell with it, the game is Gunship! by Microprose Software and if you ever want to see what I look like you can find it and look at the pilots and there I will be. One small step for gamerkind.
So I am not just coming from out of the blue with all of this ranting. Just saying. I have inside knowledge on what makes some of these guys tick and it's not really as dark and evil as you think, it just comes from a dark and evil place.
Here's the thing, you say that but just in the last 10 posts here there have been three. And I haven't even read through the rest of the string to see how many others have identified themselves.
The simple theory here being that you don't THINK that a lot of us are here because you don't SEE a lot of us around. That's that shit right there. You think you are the only black dude that likes MMO's. It's not true. There are a lot of every kind of person playing MMO's, just like there are a lot of white guys playing Madden and a lot of Latinos playing Sims.
People are people man, there is no "our race" when it comes to anything except a few really wide sweeping generalities.
My best friend is a white dude that would mop the floor with any black dude in here who wants to play some Madden. I'll put him on point with any challenger. And no, he doesn't talk like he's from where a lot of black people live either.
Influences son. They got your head all messed up. And that alone is why this topic is always important.
It's funny, because this is considered a "hot" topic in very few regions of the world. Most people accept other cultures / colors since like... dunno... quite a few decades now.
Then again, i could make black toons in MMOs since i started with EQ1 and earlier in single player games. Also green, purple....
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
I'm trying to get out of this string
But that's not really true. Most of the world is as Xenophobic as hell, they are just of one mind about it or adversely, not as able to talk about it as freely as we are here. But that is straying way off topic and so I will leave it to you to figure out how. I'll give you a hint though, imagine that you were in charge of making sure that your race, no matter what race that is, was going to be ok forever and then pick up the Wall Street Journal and see how things are going.
Perspective is everything.
After you do that think about the guy who makes money no matter who wins, the weapon maker, the bitcoin machine hardware maker, Monsanto LOL.
Do this little exercise once a day and I guarantee you will be sick by the end of the week. But don't give up. Because those people are only as powerful as we allow them to be. Learn to live piously, righteously, within your own means, and without a bunch of vices and you can weaken them like nobodies business. Just be aware though, for real, they own your ass. So to weaken them is to ultimately weaken yourself.
The rule goes like this. "If you don't want to be the boss then you are going to have to settle with having a boss. Production does not exist in a void. And that is why we fight." And yeah, I just made that up.
So instead of worrying about every little thing try just living the best life that you can live within it and maybe we can all take just a little bit of satisfaction out of that. And that begins by seeing things clearly.
Other interesting things to look up, since you are on the internet and not doing anything.
Look for the last known photograph of some real Aztec People, then compare that to what you believe an Aztec looks like.
Look for Geoffrey Chaucer, William Shakespeare, Sir Mallory and Herodotus (the father of lies) and see how they took the stories told to them by cultures who adhered to a more verbal tradition, wrote them down, turned the characters white or English, or whatever (cause they did not discriminate on who they did this to), and made bank selling them to entirely different cultures as their own stories. (again, not hating, just saying).
This is the blueprint of Hollywood. The blueprint of literature, the blueprint of all all you've ever known. And this is what helps keep nation fighting nation, race fighting race, and brother fighting brother.
In short, cause it makes good bank for those smart enough, and evil enough, to capitalize on it.
You now, armed with this knowledge, no longer have to be a part of that though. All you have to do is handle your own business and make sure that no one else tricks you into handling theirs.
Now stop thinking about stupid stuff and go play some video games.
I am out of this string!