It raises a question in me, I really would be curious, asking you Black gamers: do you not play MMOs? Do Black people tend to play less MMos, or make white characters?? Sorry, I don't mean to offend, it is just a curiosity. ^^
I try to make them in my likeness but not 100%. Still darker skinned if possible though. Regardless of their race.
In all my time gaming I've met two other "black" gamers. Me being the only gay one makes me sort of a unicorn. I'm not represented anywhere.
My fellow darker skinned gamer buddies don't care and make whatever they find pretty. So usually females.
I never thought much about it, until this topic. For me it's the same as living and working in a predominantly white community and suddenly being reminded that I don't really fit in. It does happen every so often.
etc.
Well, I am "just gay" (^^) but I find that funny, that you say "this and that reminds me of being different" at least in one case, the colour of skin. You see, I was always VERY outgoing with myself and my differences. Both in being gay and some of my lifestyles. So if I were Black or whatevs I couldn't shout it out loud enough!
But then, that's just me. ^^
Unicorns are cool and fitting in is overrated. What matters is the respect and love from those who know you.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
This is absolutely a non issue. The people acting like this is rampant are cherry picking their data to prove a point. You want to know why there aren't more minorities in videogames? Because people don't want to hear "Why is the Asian guy always the smartest guy?!?!" or "Why is the black guy always the bad guy?!?!".....we would rather have these asinine conversations about a silly, trumped up race card tossing then hear people complain after they get their way when their particular race isn't shown in the most positive light or in a stereotypical way. Stereotypes, as you all know (but refuse to accept), are often steeped in reality. Some are ridiculous, of course, but a good deal of them are based, at least partially, on truth. Then, people get butthurt when that particular personality quirk or behavior is actually observed.
I, too, can cherry pick my data to prove the exact opposite hypothesis:
I vaguely remember a couple of minority characters in Lake-town in the Hobbit movie, but I didn't think anything of it. I guess I rationalized it as Lake-town being a regional melting pot for humans that migrated to and traded in that part of Middle Earth. It doesn't bother me that hobbits and elves in Middle Earth are all white either.
There are things that do bother me, however, as the crazy, politically correct, liberal white male who violates the sensibilities of the bigots that make up the majority of the gamer community in the West (Yes, I'm pointing the finger; go ahead and play the victim now... you know you want to). For example, for all the diversity they had in GW and its expansions (and even still in Tyria in GW2) and the praise they deserve for it, I think ArenaNet's efforts to whitewash Kryta for GW2 were unfortunate. The Krytans of the original GW definitely tended to be dark skinned with dark hair and features and hairstyles distinctly not associated with European peoples. Yes I get the fanwanked explanation that zombies killed almost every Krytan, not to mention Kryta's largest city was swallowed by the sea, while white Ascalonian refugees had "strong genes" and all had ten children and in ten generations they've apparently spread all over Kryta. Yes, I get that in GW2 expansions may take us to other parts of the setting where we will get different human races. That doesn't change the fact that they did have something different and chose to move away from it to accommodate the racism of the white majority player base to make more money. A victory for capitalism and white players everywhere, I guess.
I think if a game can justify racial options and non-Caucasian humanoid NPCs, it should include them, but certainly not all fantasy species -- or even humans in some settings -- justify such options. I'm also not going to complain about having to roll an Asian character in an Asian setting or a white character in a Norse setting or an Arab player in a strictly Middle Eastern setting, or a racially homogenous collection of NPCs in any of those settings. Your kingdom has no significant connections to other regions of the world and you want everybody to be white? Okay. On the other hand, if your city is in the tropics or is one of the world's major trading centers and attracts human merchants from all over, then yeah, you really better have more than the traditional white European humans everywhere playing every important role, or you deserve to be called out for it.
Anyway, I do sometimes roll dark-skinned human characters. I have a guardian in GW2 who I imagine to be a "Krytan pureblood" noble and in WoW I have a bald black paladin with a goatee, because it is pretty much the only look that pulls it off in that game. I also have characters in various games that are blue-skinned, monsters, corpses, sentient plants, women, robots, half my age, and twice my age ... and don't think anything of it.
Amen on this I also found it downright dissappointed when Krytra was whitewashed. Another thing is that they completely rewrote Kryta's lore to connect them to Orr (which was arabic influenced in GW1 and now turned to white) instead of Elona which were the first colonists that settled in Kryta hence the Krytan's dark skin. Elona was three black nations joined together (not Arabic as many people try to slide Elona into - being a desert does not automatically make people Arabic, not even in real life, again Arabs=Orr)
What's sad that I find most of all is when companies basically "decline" the diversity they have in the mmo's. GW2 did this, as is TESO which is also starting to make the Redguards blatantly Arabic, which again they were not., but yet they keep the three other choices, Imperials, Bretons and Nords pure white races. There were black Nords in Skyrim. One of them is a woman on the quest with the Alik'r warriors who are questioning her about a Redguard from Hammerfell. The woman no only looks at them like they are insane but she also looks at them calling her a Redguard like they are crazy.
EQN has no traditional Eruduites, who SOE also basically turned into aliens in EQ2 and said the hell with in EQN, but yet they are asking people if they want to see a race like the Ratonga? I mean WTF? You will put in the RATONGA but not one of the starting races of EQ, one of which was beloved and very non stereotypical for a black race and still is special to this day? So I can have talking rats but I can't have a black person from their own culture? Really? Please someone help me understand how this makes sense? See I understand when you don't have the race in the beginning of the series. WoW has never had black people per say, they blatantly slap on racial stereotypes for black people in both the Orc and Troll races. So I don't expect it when its never been. But what really grinds my gears is when you HAVE the race already and all of a sudden you drop them into the ocean, whitewash them or turn them into monsters. What I get even less is that in the day and age of educational videos on youtube, wikipedia and millions upon millions of history sites a game designer in this day and age cannot take the time to watch simple history videos to help enrich their world and its cultures to help it feel like a virtual world and not the world of Europe. What's even more bothersome is the fact that they will put more energy into races that don't exist instead of giving diverse human choices when MOST mmo players play HUMANS?!.
I'm sorry but for all that see this as "not a big deal" but yet in the same sentence will cry for "virtual worlds in mmo's" I see you as hypocrites. A world is a WORLD, it should be diverse, it should have multiple cultures. You want your psudo British race to be the lead race, fine whatever knock your socks off. But don't claim to be making a world when you are making a world that only has one type of thing. Honestly its bullshit.
Not to mention any fool can see the possibilities in GAMEPLAY that more cultures bring to your game. Additions in armor designs, weapons, food recipes, alchemy, new lore, new and exotic locations to explore, new monsters from different cultures to add to the monster lineups. New types of magic from different cultures to add to the game. Just the herbology additions to a crafting system by opening up new places of the world is enough in itself. Or even something like spell components. Want the best shield spell you could possibly have? Well you have to head over to the pseudo African continent and get diamond dust. Using diamond dust from that area will boost your shield spell's protection bonus by 50 percent!
See things like this give players a reason to not only see your world, not only add depth but also play on the diversity of your game world so you are not just adding in diversity because I want it. You are adding it because it fleshes out your WORLD.
Take something like Voodoo for instance. With its horror ties (and misconceptions) it could easily be tied to something like TSW. Something that can add to the GAME itsself. Why aren't we seeing these type of things? It honestly makes no sense -at all!- and imo is a mark of downright lazy game design.
Game designers turn off the goddamned puppy videos on youtube and watch some damn egyptian, arabian, hell greek and roman for that matter or russian as well as Songhai, Mali and other culture history videos. Read up on wikia about these great cultures that honestly we are NOT seeing enough of in these mmos. Stop relying on the standard England tropes and put in something new, there are white cultures like Russian, Greek as well as Roman that we don't see enough and -never- see in AAA mmorpgs. Hell there are so many people dying to have an East Indian race in an mmo where is that option? You can still please your white male gamer demographic and have diversity in your mmo world as well.
And if not the least play a goddamned Civilization game. If Sid Meyer can include Songhai/Mali so can you! There is NO excuse for such lazy game design and absolute lack of research in mmos nowadays!
Not when a simple youtube search can be done in less than 5 minutes!
And please believe what I said about the Ratonga vs Original Erudites. Someone please tell me how its more of a priority to have talking rats than being able to make a unique black person from one of the starting races from the original game. I honestly need to know, because this point illustrates what many are saying on here like no other.
I am honestly willing to bet that there will be more black people interested in playing EQN than talking rats. We may be a minority but our playerbase is higher. So what is the deal?
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
This is absolutely a non issue. The people acting like this is rampant are cherry picking their data to prove a point. You want to know why there aren't more minorities in videogames? Because people don't want to hear "Why is the Asian guy always the smartest guy?!?!" or "Why is the black guy always the bad guy?!?!".....we would rather have these asinine conversations about a silly, trumped up race card tossing then hear people complain after they get their way when their particular race isn't shown in the most positive light or in a stereotypical way. Stereotypes, as you all know (but refuse to accept), are often steeped in reality. Some are ridiculous, of course, but a good deal of them are based, at least partially, on truth. Then, people get butthurt when that particular personality quirk or behavior is actually observed.
I, too, can cherry pick my data to prove the exact opposite hypothesis:
Raubahn, in FF14, is clearly a black man.
Erudites in Everquest lore are black people.
Drakken in Everquest, are clearly Asian.
Perfect World greatly represents all races.
Secret World does the same.
Dark Age of Camelot was also all inclusive.
I could go on, but you get the point......
An issue... that's an individual thing. It is an issue for some people, and then, if it is, why should we not have a civilized conversation about it? If you don't like to debate it... well don't do it. ^^
I was always curious about this. It's a chance to learn about people.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Im black as fuck, and im also a mmo fanatic. hehehe im so proud of our community for bringing this up, the lack of black people or a black avatar choice has always DESTROYED immersion for me.. Its nothing personal my caucasion friends But think of it like this, you get to the entire end of Lord of the rings extended edition, all three DVD's DONE!... then you realize... Hey... where duh fuq are the black people... then you get to... The only black people were evil... LOL! i remember this destroyed LOTR for me. THEN!!! I download the game like fuck ya here i come online world. And I cant even make a black character... I then LOL hard to myself hahahaa. Times are getting better though, i remember when you could only be a caucasion male in most games. Im so used to it though I find it more commical. Like in the desolation of smaug the only scene with black people is when the dwarfs are talking to the king of that floating city. Feels like they just peppered them in there, like they all of a sudden had the same wtf moment I did years ago lool. I think tolkien just didnt have black people in his fantasy world. It is what it is
Only as a warrior can one withstand the path of knowledge. A warrior cannot complain or regret anything. His life is an endless challenge, and challenges cannot possibly be good or bad. Challenges are simply challenges.
This is absolutely a non issue. The people acting like this is rampant are cherry picking their data to prove a point. You want to know why there aren't more minorities in videogames? Because people don't want to hear "Why is the Asian guy always the smartest guy?!?!" or "Why is the black guy always the bad guy?!?!".....we would rather have these asinine conversations about a silly, trumped up race card tossing then hear people complain after they get their way when their particular race isn't shown in the most positive light or in a stereotypical way. Stereotypes, as you all know (but refuse to accept), are often steeped in reality. Some are ridiculous, of course, but a good deal of them are based, at least partially, on truth. Then, people get butthurt when that particular personality quirk or behavior is actually observed.
I, too, can cherry pick my data to prove the exact opposite hypothesis:
Raubahn, in FF14, is clearly a black man.
Erudites in Everquest lore are black people.
Drakken in Everquest, are clearly Asian.
Perfect World greatly represents all races.
Secret World does the same.
Dark Age of Camelot was also all inclusive.
I could go on, but you get the point......
Raubahn is persian, Uldah its self is very persian. Im persian/indian my self.
This is absolutely a non issue. The people acting like this is rampant are cherry picking their data to prove a point. You want to know why there aren't more minorities in videogames? Because people don't want to hear "Why is the Asian guy always the smartest guy?!?!" or "Why is the black guy always the bad guy?!?!".....we would rather have these asinine conversations about a silly, trumped up race card tossing then hear people complain after they get their way when their particular race isn't shown in the most positive light or in a stereotypical way. Stereotypes, as you all know (but refuse to accept), are often steeped in reality. Some are ridiculous, of course, but a good deal of them are based, at least partially, on truth. Then, people get butthurt when that particular personality quirk or behavior is actually observed.
I, too, can cherry pick my data to prove the exact opposite hypothesis:
Raubahn, in FF14, is clearly a black man.
Erudites in Everquest lore are black people.
Drakken in Everquest, are clearly Asian.
Perfect World greatly represents all races.
Secret World does the same.
Dark Age of Camelot was also all inclusive.
I could go on, but you get the point......
Raubahn is persian, Uldah its self is very persian. Im persian/indian my self.
Im black as fuck, and im also a mmo fanatic. hehehe im so proud of our community for bringing this up, the lack of black people or a black avatar choice has always DESTROYED immersion for me.. Its nothing personal my caucasion friends But think of it like this, you get to the entire end of Lord of the rings extended edition, all three DVD's DONE!... then you realize... Hey... where duh fuq are the black people... then you get to... The only black people were evil... LOL! i remember this destroyed LOTR for me. THEN!!! I download the game like fuck ya here i come online world. And I cant even make a black character... I then LOL hard to myself hahahaa. Times are getting better though, i remember when you could only be a caucasion male in most games. Im so used to it though I find it more commical. Like in the desolation of smaug the only scene with black people is when the dwarfs are talking to the king of that floating city. Feels like they just peppered them in there, like they all of a sudden had the same wtf moment I did years ago lool. I think tolkien just didnt have black people in his fantasy world. It is what it is
Thanks for sharing.
I will be even more mindful.
Yeah I noticed the black woman in the Lake Town scene too!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
This is absolutely a non issue. The people acting like this is rampant are cherry picking their data to prove a point. You want to know why there aren't more minorities in videogames? Because people don't want to hear "Why is the Asian guy always the smartest guy?!?!" or "Why is the black guy always the bad guy?!?!".....we would rather have these asinine conversations about a silly, trumped up race card tossing then hear people complain after they get their way when their particular race isn't shown in the most positive light or in a stereotypical way. Stereotypes, as you all know (but refuse to accept), are often steeped in reality. Some are ridiculous, of course, but a good deal of them are based, at least partially, on truth. Then, people get butthurt when that particular personality quirk or behavior is actually observed.
I, too, can cherry pick my data to prove the exact opposite hypothesis:
Raubahn, in FF14, is clearly a black man.
Erudites in Everquest lore are black people.
Drakken in Everquest, are clearly Asian.
Perfect World greatly represents all races.
Secret World does the same.
Dark Age of Camelot was also all inclusive.
I could go on, but you get the point......
Raubahn is persian, Uldah its self is very persian. Im persian/indian my self.
Raubahn is a male Highlander Hyur with brown dreadlocks and a beard. On his back he wears his two large swords and a shield.
Raubahn has dreads and is not originally from Ul'dah. Trust me the japanese don't just put in details like this just because.
He's black, otherwise they would not have given him dreads. There are also alot of "black jokes and expressions" in Ul'dah on many of the quests.
"Once you go black...." is one of them that you will hear when you are seeking fashion advice in the huge red carpet area walkway with the steps.
Whatever race you wanna think he is, I know one thing and those are braids, not dreads. Can you not see the twists? And you do know that square doesnt write those entries in the wiki other than the words in the quotes. Also in Final Fantasy 11s version of him he was a blue mage which was a persian themed class too. Plus his name is very persian or indian too like the Arabic name Subhan. And black people arent the only ones who can have dreadlocks
I think Tolkien was just a tad bit racist lol. I mean if black and indian colored people were with sauron in his books thats kind of like saying black and indian people are with satan...
That has never been my understanding. I have always taken it to mean that their leaders have fallen under Sauron's influence, not that those peoples are themselves evil. For me, what stands out in Tolkien's writing is the emphasis on social class rather than race. The only evil race are the orcs, and when they speak Common their vocabulary is that of the English working class. The heroes by contrast are largely of 'better stock' with the notable exception of loyal Sam, the subservient commoner who clearly 'knows his place'.
I have not seen the second Hobbit movie, but it makes perfect sense for me to have more ethnic-looking actors in a trading center like Lake Town; Easterling merchants or traders making their way along the Anduin from the south. I do suspect that there was some pressure to have more ethnic actors present in the film after that fuss over the Indian lady who wanted to play a hobbit. There was certainly no mention of skin colour at the casting calls, and my own brown skin did not prevent me being offered the chance to play an Elven extra.
As for MMOs, I don't recall the last MMO that did not allow me to play a human with dark skin. I don't think that there is a real problem in that regard. Where I think fantasy as a genre does fail is in its unwillingness to draw influences from more non-European sources. When I was creating worlds for pnp campaigns, I would try to mix and match elements from various cultures. Fantasy often seems to be curiously unimaginative.
Start with the basics, why are they doing this? Why take lore, a story or history and foster on it peoples who were never there? Because they feel there are justified in doing so regardless of accuracy to the source. You do a all male version of Swan Lake because you want to make a statement, not because you think it will add anything to the art of ballet.
Be it political correctness, social justice, call it what you will, you have a reason to distort the source material to what you think it should be. This is all about making a political statement and has nothing to do with whether it is possible that someone from another part of Middle earth could live in Lake Town. If we had a small community of Martians on this planet of ours I would not have been surprised if one of them had turned up in Lake Town.
That's what being 'representative' is all about, you put people into a story, history, or whatever regardless of the accuracy. I wonder though if we had a TV series on the ancient kingdom of Merina in Africa that they would feel the need to stick a token white guy in there? I think not, fortunately we would be spared this silliness there.
More modern fantasy sources tend to put more non whites into their stories, which is as it should be. The case can certainly be made that they are under represented there. But taking sources from the past and editing them to suit your political preferences makes me think of the Ministry of Truth, because that's where a crusading ideological zeal leads you.
Start with the basics, why are they doing this? Why take lore, a story or history and foster on it peoples who were never there? Because they feel there are justified in doing so regardless of accuracy to the source. You do a all male version of Swan Lake because you want to make a statement, not because you think it will add anything to the art of ballet.
Be is political correctness, social justice, call it what you will, you have a reason to distort the source material to what you think it should be. This is all about making a political statement and has nothing to do with whether It is possible that a someone from another part of Middle earth could live in Lake Town. If we had a small community of Martians on this planet of ours I would not have been surprised if one of them had turned up in Lake Town.
That's what being 'representative' is all about, you put people into a story, history, or whatever regardless of the accuracy. I wonder though if we had a TV series on the ancient kingdom of Merina in Africa that they would feel the need to stick a token white guy in there? I think not, fortunately we would be spared this silliness there.
More modern fantasy sources tend to put more non whites into their stories, which is as it should be. The case can certainly be made that they are under represented there. But taking sources from the past and editing them to suit your political preferences makes me think of the Ministry of Truth, because that's where a crusading ideological zeal leads you.
Haha!! Ever heard of Tarzan? Just saying. We are spared no silliness from a guy trying to make a buck.
Originally posted by Kuinn Too many pages to read the replies, but @OP, I'd believe it's because the fantasy in question is written by white people, and as far as I know these dev teams are pretty much white too (untill recently?).
What personally annoys me is when people are bugged if black people is added to the lore later somehow, or if a fantasy movie for example does not follow exactly the holy sribes of the original sacred writings. These nerds act like someone made a history movie but took some liberties and tries to spread false propaganda among the viewers that is historically not correct. It's a fantasy movie, it's fine, as long as it follows the general direction of the story and fits into movie boundaries, it's fine.
Well, TESO should be released in few months, I guess it's shielded pretty well against this sillyness by the whole region of Red Guard? Red Guards, damn. Might roll one my self if I'm getting TESO.
Idris Elba as Heimdall comes to mind reading this. Heimdall is kind of a bad@ss, and Idris Elba plays a pretty good bad@ss. Heimdall being black is really weird, if you go with the idea that Asgardians are real. Given that they are an alien, fantasy race with super powers, it doesn't seem all that weird that one of them might have a different skin tone with slight different facial features from e.g., Thor. Of course, that's nothing compared to Johnny Storm of the Fantastic Four being black in the upcoming FF movie. Apparently the Marvel Universe is going to collapse into some kind of black hole or something because his sister is being played by a white actress.
I can't decide if stuff like this is actual racism, since the arguments against things like this tend to get racist as hell, or if it's just the normal nerd behavior that can't deal with changes to continuity and retcons. Even though retcons and continuity changes have been happening since the beginning of entertainment. Just read a history of Egyptian gods or the gods of the Aztecs and Incas to see how they retcon entire histories of the universe as one city comes into power and their patron god gets carried along for the ride.
I guess my point is that people are pretty stupid. Are there black Vikings or were there ever black Vikings? No, probably not. Not very many, anyway. Does that mean there shouldn't be black, Viking inspired fantasy characters? No. That's stupid. There should be black, Viking inspired fantasy characters. Same argument for Asian, Viking inspired fantasy characters.
If people want NPCs that aren't just one dimensional, cardboard cutouts, including different real world racial characteristics is one way to do it. Instead of pulling from one culture, pull from several. Hell, make up a completely new culture and just mix people of different races in there at random. It's fantasy, where continuity and reality rarely, if ever consistently have any impact.
Well it is a bit weird to be honest when they change some key players from white to black, I'm not going to lose my sleep over it but it sure can be a bit weird. Black elves in Lotr would slide over to the comedy side of things to be honest
What is not weird however, is when some guy writes fantasy before the television was invented, did not include black man in it, and today someone makes a movie of the setting and there's black people. Lets take Tolkien, he never explained the whole world of Lotr, and there could be god knows what we dont know out in that world, not to mention it's just fantasy.
Look at Game of Thrones, there's that continent to the south that no one knows practically anything about. I guess there's nothing else than trees because it's not specified what that place contains? At least if we follow the Tolkien fan logic. So yeah, changing Aragorn the heir to the throne of Gondor into a black guy might be a weird thing, but adding black people to the world that we know only half of, not a big deal, not even close.
Almost forgot, Idris Elba is awesome, not Samuel L. Jackson awesome, but awesome. I'd like to see him in some yet to be revealed upcoming scifi TV series as no less than "The sarge", Tali would go all perfect! on this topic.
"I am honestly willing to bet that there will be more black people interested in playing EQN than talking rats. We may be a minority but our playerbase is higher. So what is the deal?"
I have to say you made me smile there, very true. But EQN (I think) is based on new lore so no reason they could fit a black culture in there if they had wanted to. It comes down to this, many people play toons to get away from themselves, so the talking rats are going to win over more humans. I don't think of that as a justification, just the way it is.
Samuel L. Jackson was mentioned by the last poster and provides an illustration that this is not just about race but about political correctness. When he played Nick Fury it was not just an issue of placing a black guy in the Avengers all white line up. He does not smoke cigars anymore. Back in the day he once smoked a cigar inside a space suit! Jackson might as well have had "This has been a public health message brought to you by Marvel Studios" tattooed on his arm.
Originally posted by KuinnToo many pages to read the replies, but @OP, I'd believe it's because the fantasy in question is written by white people, and as far as I know these dev teams are pretty much white too (untill recently?).What personally annoys me is when people are bugged if black people is added to the lore later somehow, or if a fantasy movie for example does not follow exactly the holy sribes of the original sacred writings. These nerds act like someone made a history movie but took some liberties and tries to spread false propaganda among the viewers that is historically not correct. It's a fantasy movie, it's fine, as long as it follows the general direction of the story and fits into movie boundaries, it's fine.Well, TESO should be released in few months, I guess it's shielded pretty well against this sillyness by the whole region of Red Guard? Red Guards, damn. Might roll one my self if I'm getting TESO.
Idris Elba as Heimdall comes to mind reading this. Heimdall is kind of a bad@ss, and Idris Elba plays a pretty good bad@ss. Heimdall being black is really weird, if you go with the idea that Asgardians are real. Given that they are an alien, fantasy race with super powers, it doesn't seem all that weird that one of them might have a different skin tone with slight different facial features from e.g., Thor. Of course, that's nothing compared to Johnny Storm of the Fantastic Four being black in the upcoming FF movie. Apparently the Marvel Universe is going to collapse into some kind of black hole or something because his sister is being played by a white actress. I can't decide if stuff like this is actual racism, since the arguments against things like this tend to get racist as hell, or if it's just the normal nerd behavior that can't deal with changes to continuity and retcons. Even though retcons and continuity changes have been happening since the beginning of entertainment. Just read a history of Egyptian gods or the gods of the Aztecs and Incas to see how they retcon entire histories of the universe as one city comes into power and their patron god gets carried along for the ride. I guess my point is that people are pretty stupid. Are there black Vikings or were there ever black Vikings? No, probably not. Not very many, anyway. Does that mean there shouldn't be black, Viking inspired fantasy characters? No. That's stupid. There should be black, Viking inspired fantasy characters. Same argument for Asian, Viking inspired fantasy characters. If people want NPCs that aren't just one dimensional, cardboard cutouts, including different real world racial characteristics is one way to do it. Instead of pulling from one culture, pull from several. Hell, make up a completely new culture and just mix people of different races in there at random. It's fantasy, where continuity and reality rarely, if ever consistently have any impact.
Well it is a bit weird to be honest when they change some key players from white to black, I'm not going to lose my sleep over it but it sure can be a bit weird. Black elves in Lotr would slide over to the comedy side of things to be honest
What is not weird however, is when some guy writes fantasy before the television was invented, did not include black man in it, and today someone makes a movie of the setting and there's black people. Lets take Tolkien, he never explained the whole world of Lotr, and there could be god knows what we dont know out in that world, not to mention it's just fantasy.
Look at Game of Thrones, there's that continent to the south that no one knows practically anything about. I guess there's nothing else than trees because it's not specified what that place contains? At least if we follow the Tolkien fan logic. So yeah, changing Aragorn the heir to the throne of Gondor into a black guy might be a weird thing, but adding black people to the world that we know only half of, not a big deal, not even close.
Almost forgot, Idris Elba is awesome, not Samuel L. Jackson awesome, but awesome. I'd like to see him in some yet to be revealed upcoming scifi TV series as no less than "The sarge", Tali would go all perfect! on this topic.
I think there is a difference between people who get weird about changes to canon, and people who get weird about changes that specifically relate to race. If someone doesn't care that Dr. Doom was on the space station with the FF, but cares that Johnny Storm is going to be black* and his sister is white, then it's probably racism, not nerdism. If someone has an apoplectic fit about the entire FF movie, it's probably nerdism.
But I'm getting off track. We're supposed to be talking about video games. If someone writes a video game, and all of the humans are one race, it shouldn't take a genius to figure out that in the U.S. at least, 13% of the population is going to feel left out. That's bad enough, but the part that bothers me is that it doesn't even make sense. Video games are complete fantasy worlds, with no real history and no real reason to not include many different races of humans. There are many different races of humanoids, so what's the big issue with a couple different races of humans? If it's not a big deal to include cats that have evolved to the point of using tools and speech, it shouldn't be that big a deal to have more than one race of humans in a game. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at an entertainment genre that can barely address having women in games without turning them all into waif like sexbots, but I am disappointed.
* And strangely doesn't seem to care that Jessica Alba is Mexican/French-Danish and her brother is white.
**
I would like to add that I think the video gaming industry is much better at integrating their diversity stuff into their standard offerings much better than television or movies. I also think at some point that video games are going to be far more representative of the world we live in than television, movies or books, even if there are dragons and fireballs.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If 50% of all fantasy-theme MMO purchasers were black, then 50% of the character creation would be geared more towards black characters.
High Fantasy isn't popular with the black community. This, as well as the fact that most people prefer to make characters of their own race (if they decide to play human), is the reason why character creation lacks proper black structure.
Personally, I'd like to see proper base models for every major race on earth. Vanguard did a pretty good job, IMO.
If 50% of all fantasy-theme MMO purchasers were black, then 50% of the character creation would be geared more towards black characters.
High Fantasy isn't popular with the black community. This, as well as the fact that most people prefer to make characters of their own race (if they decide to play human), is the reason why character creation lacks proper black structure.
I can only speak for myself but I often make a black guy when I play human at all in a fantasy game specifically because I want something different from my real life. To me it's extremely boring to play a fantasy game only to try to recreate my real-life self.
"I am honestly willing to bet that there will be more black people interested in playing EQN than talking rats. We may be a minority but our playerbase is higher. So what is the deal?"
I have to say you made me smile there, very true. But EQN (I think) is based on new lore so no reason they could fit a black culture in there if they had wanted to. It comes down to this, many people play toons to get away from themselves, so the talking rats are going to win over more humans. I don't think of that as a justification, just the way it is.
Samuel L. Jackson was mentioned by the last poster and provides an illustration that this is not just about race but about political correctness. When he played Nick Fury it was not just an issue of placing a black guy in the Avengers all white line up. He does not smoke cigars anymore. Back in the day he once smoked a cigar inside a space suit! Jackson might as well have had "This has been a public health message brought to you by Marvel Studios" tattooed on his arm.
Let me reiterate.
I am not asking for something that does not exist.
Wow does not have a "black race" or any other human races besides white so I don't ask for them. You told me right off the bat that you didn't give a damn about other human cultures. Enough to the point that you put stereotypes into monstrous races. Hence why I don't play WoW.
Erudites are one of the founding races of Everquest. A beloved founding race, that was turned into aliens and not even being put in at all despite peoples requests for them. They were at one time a cornerstone of the lore. People mainly play humans in mmos.
But instead of getting a race that is part of your lore, fits into the "most players play humans" hard truth of mmo character creation we get polls asking us if we want talking rats instead.
I don't get it.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Comments
Well, I am "just gay" (^^) but I find that funny, that you say "this and that reminds me of being different" at least in one case, the colour of skin. You see, I was always VERY outgoing with myself and my differences. Both in being gay and some of my lifestyles. So if I were Black or whatevs I couldn't shout it out loud enough!
But then, that's just me. ^^
Unicorns are cool and fitting in is overrated. What matters is the respect and love from those who know you.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
It is. But it's an uphill battle, that's for sure. That's why I love games. If I'm not represented in-game? I represent myself.
This is absolutely a non issue. The people acting like this is rampant are cherry picking their data to prove a point. You want to know why there aren't more minorities in videogames? Because people don't want to hear "Why is the Asian guy always the smartest guy?!?!" or "Why is the black guy always the bad guy?!?!".....we would rather have these asinine conversations about a silly, trumped up race card tossing then hear people complain after they get their way when their particular race isn't shown in the most positive light or in a stereotypical way. Stereotypes, as you all know (but refuse to accept), are often steeped in reality. Some are ridiculous, of course, but a good deal of them are based, at least partially, on truth. Then, people get butthurt when that particular personality quirk or behavior is actually observed.
I, too, can cherry pick my data to prove the exact opposite hypothesis:
Raubahn, in FF14, is clearly a black man.
Erudites in Everquest lore are black people.
Drakken in Everquest, are clearly Asian.
Perfect World greatly represents all races.
Secret World does the same.
Dark Age of Camelot was also all inclusive.
I could go on, but you get the point......
Amen on this I also found it downright dissappointed when Krytra was whitewashed. Another thing is that they completely rewrote Kryta's lore to connect them to Orr (which was arabic influenced in GW1 and now turned to white) instead of Elona which were the first colonists that settled in Kryta hence the Krytan's dark skin. Elona was three black nations joined together (not Arabic as many people try to slide Elona into - being a desert does not automatically make people Arabic, not even in real life, again Arabs=Orr)
What's sad that I find most of all is when companies basically "decline" the diversity they have in the mmo's. GW2 did this, as is TESO which is also starting to make the Redguards blatantly Arabic, which again they were not., but yet they keep the three other choices, Imperials, Bretons and Nords pure white races. There were black Nords in Skyrim. One of them is a woman on the quest with the Alik'r warriors who are questioning her about a Redguard from Hammerfell. The woman no only looks at them like they are insane but she also looks at them calling her a Redguard like they are crazy.
EQN has no traditional Eruduites, who SOE also basically turned into aliens in EQ2 and said the hell with in EQN, but yet they are asking people if they want to see a race like the Ratonga? I mean WTF? You will put in the RATONGA but not one of the starting races of EQ, one of which was beloved and very non stereotypical for a black race and still is special to this day? So I can have talking rats but I can't have a black person from their own culture? Really? Please someone help me understand how this makes sense? See I understand when you don't have the race in the beginning of the series. WoW has never had black people per say, they blatantly slap on racial stereotypes for black people in both the Orc and Troll races. So I don't expect it when its never been. But what really grinds my gears is when you HAVE the race already and all of a sudden you drop them into the ocean, whitewash them or turn them into monsters. What I get even less is that in the day and age of educational videos on youtube, wikipedia and millions upon millions of history sites a game designer in this day and age cannot take the time to watch simple history videos to help enrich their world and its cultures to help it feel like a virtual world and not the world of Europe. What's even more bothersome is the fact that they will put more energy into races that don't exist instead of giving diverse human choices when MOST mmo players play HUMANS?!.
I'm sorry but for all that see this as "not a big deal" but yet in the same sentence will cry for "virtual worlds in mmo's" I see you as hypocrites. A world is a WORLD, it should be diverse, it should have multiple cultures. You want your psudo British race to be the lead race, fine whatever knock your socks off. But don't claim to be making a world when you are making a world that only has one type of thing. Honestly its bullshit.
Not to mention any fool can see the possibilities in GAMEPLAY that more cultures bring to your game. Additions in armor designs, weapons, food recipes, alchemy, new lore, new and exotic locations to explore, new monsters from different cultures to add to the monster lineups. New types of magic from different cultures to add to the game. Just the herbology additions to a crafting system by opening up new places of the world is enough in itself. Or even something like spell components. Want the best shield spell you could possibly have? Well you have to head over to the pseudo African continent and get diamond dust. Using diamond dust from that area will boost your shield spell's protection bonus by 50 percent!
See things like this give players a reason to not only see your world, not only add depth but also play on the diversity of your game world so you are not just adding in diversity because I want it. You are adding it because it fleshes out your WORLD.
Take something like Voodoo for instance. With its horror ties (and misconceptions) it could easily be tied to something like TSW. Something that can add to the GAME itsself. Why aren't we seeing these type of things? It honestly makes no sense -at all!- and imo is a mark of downright lazy game design.
Game designers turn off the goddamned puppy videos on youtube and watch some damn egyptian, arabian, hell greek and roman for that matter or russian as well as Songhai, Mali and other culture history videos. Read up on wikia about these great cultures that honestly we are NOT seeing enough of in these mmos. Stop relying on the standard England tropes and put in something new, there are white cultures like Russian, Greek as well as Roman that we don't see enough and -never- see in AAA mmorpgs. Hell there are so many people dying to have an East Indian race in an mmo where is that option? You can still please your white male gamer demographic and have diversity in your mmo world as well.
And if not the least play a goddamned Civilization game. If Sid Meyer can include Songhai/Mali so can you! There is NO excuse for such lazy game design and absolute lack of research in mmos nowadays!
Not when a simple youtube search can be done in less than 5 minutes!
And please believe what I said about the Ratonga vs Original Erudites. Someone please tell me how its more of a priority to have talking rats than being able to make a unique black person from one of the starting races from the original game. I honestly need to know, because this point illustrates what many are saying on here like no other.
I am honestly willing to bet that there will be more black people interested in playing EQN than talking rats. We may be a minority but our playerbase is higher. So what is the deal?
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
An issue... that's an individual thing. It is an issue for some people, and then, if it is, why should we not have a civilized conversation about it? If you don't like to debate it... well don't do it. ^^
I was always curious about this. It's a chance to learn about people.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Im black as fuck, and im also a mmo fanatic. hehehe im so proud of our community for bringing this up, the lack of black people or a black avatar choice has always DESTROYED immersion for me.. Its nothing personal my caucasion friends
But think of it like this, you get to the entire end of Lord of the rings extended edition, all three DVD's DONE!... then you realize... Hey... where duh fuq are the black people... then you get to... The only black people were evil... LOL! i remember this destroyed LOTR for me. THEN!!! I download the game like fuck ya here i come online world. And I cant even make a black character... I then LOL hard to myself hahahaa. Times are getting better though, i remember when you could only be a caucasion male in most games. Im so used to it though I find it more commical. Like in the desolation of smaug the only scene with black people is when the dwarfs are talking to the king of that floating city. Feels like they just peppered them in there, like they all of a sudden had the same wtf moment I did years ago lool. I think tolkien just didnt have black people in his fantasy world. It is what it is 
Only as a warrior can one withstand the path of knowledge. A warrior cannot complain or regret anything. His life is an endless challenge, and challenges cannot possibly be good or bad. Challenges are simply challenges.
It's bad fantasy, when continuity and reality rarely, if ever consistently have any impact. Wish fulfilment and fanservice.
LIke one SF author said, 'Ask your readers to believe only one impossible thing.'
Oh, and Vikings did raid North Africa. Caspian Sea too.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Raubahn is persian, Uldah its self is very persian. Im persian/indian my self.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Raubahn_Aldynn
Raubahn is a male Highlander Hyur with brown dreadlocks and a beard. On his back he wears his two large swords and a shield.
Raubahn has dreads and is not originally from Ul'dah. Trust me the japanese don't just put in details like this just because.
He's black, otherwise they would not have given him dreads. There are also alot of "black jokes and expressions" in Ul'dah on many of the quests.
"Once you go black...." is one of them that you will hear when you are seeking fashion advice in the huge red carpet area walkway with the steps.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Thanks for sharing.
I will be even more mindful.
Yeah I noticed the black woman in the Lake Town scene too!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
That has never been my understanding. I have always taken it to mean that their leaders have fallen under Sauron's influence, not that those peoples are themselves evil. For me, what stands out in Tolkien's writing is the emphasis on social class rather than race. The only evil race are the orcs, and when they speak Common their vocabulary is that of the English working class. The heroes by contrast are largely of 'better stock' with the notable exception of loyal Sam, the subservient commoner who clearly 'knows his place'.
I have not seen the second Hobbit movie, but it makes perfect sense for me to have more ethnic-looking actors in a trading center like Lake Town; Easterling merchants or traders making their way along the Anduin from the south. I do suspect that there was some pressure to have more ethnic actors present in the film after that fuss over the Indian lady who wanted to play a hobbit. There was certainly no mention of skin colour at the casting calls, and my own brown skin did not prevent me being offered the chance to play an Elven extra.
As for MMOs, I don't recall the last MMO that did not allow me to play a human with dark skin. I don't think that there is a real problem in that regard. Where I think fantasy as a genre does fail is in its unwillingness to draw influences from more non-European sources. When I was creating worlds for pnp campaigns, I would try to mix and match elements from various cultures. Fantasy often seems to be curiously unimaginative.
Start with the basics, why are they doing this? Why take lore, a story or history and foster on it peoples who were never there? Because they feel there are justified in doing so regardless of accuracy to the source. You do a all male version of Swan Lake because you want to make a statement, not because you think it will add anything to the art of ballet.
Be it political correctness, social justice, call it what you will, you have a reason to distort the source material to what you think it should be. This is all about making a political statement and has nothing to do with whether it is possible that someone from another part of Middle earth could live in Lake Town. If we had a small community of Martians on this planet of ours I would not have been surprised if one of them had turned up in Lake Town.
That's what being 'representative' is all about, you put people into a story, history, or whatever regardless of the accuracy. I wonder though if we had a TV series on the ancient kingdom of Merina in Africa that they would feel the need to stick a token white guy in there? I think not, fortunately we would be spared this silliness there.
More modern fantasy sources tend to put more non whites into their stories, which is as it should be. The case can certainly be made that they are under represented there. But taking sources from the past and editing them to suit your political preferences makes me think of the Ministry of Truth, because that's where a crusading ideological zeal leads you.
Erudites from Everquest 1 was a race of Very Intelligent Black People....they even Lived on a Separate Island it was Awsome
Erudites were one of the coolest Races back in Everquest 1 when it was new
Haha!! Ever heard of Tarzan? Just saying. We are spared no silliness from a guy trying to make a buck.
Well I can excuse the author because of the time he lived in. But yes its absurd to need to have a white guy in Africa as a hero.
This is for that one guy that made that statement about Africans having nothing to add.
Funny how similar these two are even in story. No matter though because there is .....
Everyone has something to offer, it's just a matter of whether you choose to acknowledge it or ignore it.
Not really an MMO (yet) but can't forget the Redguards in EoS series.
[mod edit]Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin
Well it is a bit weird to be honest when they change some key players from white to black, I'm not going to lose my sleep over it but it sure can be a bit weird. Black elves in Lotr would slide over to the comedy side of things to be honest
What is not weird however, is when some guy writes fantasy before the television was invented, did not include black man in it, and today someone makes a movie of the setting and there's black people. Lets take Tolkien, he never explained the whole world of Lotr, and there could be god knows what we dont know out in that world, not to mention it's just fantasy.
Look at Game of Thrones, there's that continent to the south that no one knows practically anything about. I guess there's nothing else than trees because it's not specified what that place contains? At least if we follow the Tolkien fan logic. So yeah, changing Aragorn the heir to the throne of Gondor into a black guy might be a weird thing, but adding black people to the world that we know only half of, not a big deal, not even close.
Almost forgot, Idris Elba is awesome, not Samuel L. Jackson awesome, but awesome. I'd like to see him in some yet to be revealed upcoming scifi TV series as no less than "The sarge", Tali would go all perfect! on this topic.
"I am honestly willing to bet that there will be more black people interested in playing EQN than talking rats. We may be a minority but our playerbase is higher. So what is the deal?"
I have to say you made me smile there, very true. But EQN (I think) is based on new lore so no reason they could fit a black culture in there if they had wanted to. It comes down to this, many people play toons to get away from themselves, so the talking rats are going to win over more humans. I don't think of that as a justification, just the way it is.
Samuel L. Jackson was mentioned by the last poster and provides an illustration that this is not just about race but about political correctness. When he played Nick Fury it was not just an issue of placing a black guy in the Avengers all white line up. He does not smoke cigars anymore. Back in the day he once smoked a cigar inside a space suit! Jackson might as well have had "This has been a public health message brought to you by Marvel Studios" tattooed on his arm.
I think there is a difference between people who get weird about changes to canon, and people who get weird about changes that specifically relate to race. If someone doesn't care that Dr. Doom was on the space station with the FF, but cares that Johnny Storm is going to be black* and his sister is white, then it's probably racism, not nerdism. If someone has an apoplectic fit about the entire FF movie, it's probably nerdism.
But I'm getting off track. We're supposed to be talking about video games. If someone writes a video game, and all of the humans are one race, it shouldn't take a genius to figure out that in the U.S. at least, 13% of the population is going to feel left out. That's bad enough, but the part that bothers me is that it doesn't even make sense. Video games are complete fantasy worlds, with no real history and no real reason to not include many different races of humans. There are many different races of humanoids, so what's the big issue with a couple different races of humans? If it's not a big deal to include cats that have evolved to the point of using tools and speech, it shouldn't be that big a deal to have more than one race of humans in a game. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at an entertainment genre that can barely address having women in games without turning them all into waif like sexbots, but I am disappointed.
* And strangely doesn't seem to care that Jessica Alba is Mexican/French-Danish and her brother is white.
**
I would like to add that I think the video gaming industry is much better at integrating their diversity stuff into their standard offerings much better than television or movies. I also think at some point that video games are going to be far more representative of the world we live in than television, movies or books, even if there are dragons and fireballs.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
People always ignore the hard truth.
If 50% of all fantasy-theme MMO purchasers were black, then 50% of the character creation would be geared more towards black characters.
High Fantasy isn't popular with the black community. This, as well as the fact that most people prefer to make characters of their own race (if they decide to play human), is the reason why character creation lacks proper black structure.
Personally, I'd like to see proper base models for every major race on earth. Vanguard did a pretty good job, IMO.
I can only speak for myself but I often make a black guy when I play human at all in a fantasy game specifically because I want something different from my real life. To me it's extremely boring to play a fantasy game only to try to recreate my real-life self.
Let me reiterate.
I am not asking for something that does not exist.
Wow does not have a "black race" or any other human races besides white so I don't ask for them. You told me right off the bat that you didn't give a damn about other human cultures. Enough to the point that you put stereotypes into monstrous races. Hence why I don't play WoW.
Erudites are one of the founding races of Everquest. A beloved founding race, that was turned into aliens and not even being put in at all despite peoples requests for them. They were at one time a cornerstone of the lore. People mainly play humans in mmos.
But instead of getting a race that is part of your lore, fits into the "most players play humans" hard truth of mmo character creation we get polls asking us if we want talking rats instead.
I don't get it.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!