Much is being made in this thread about the fact that the devs provide this info via the API, therefore using it in all ways imaginable must have been their intention.
Not neccessarily.
It's amazing how the devs become "all-knowing visionaries" when it suits the argument. It's highly likely that they did not foresee all the consequences of the info passed via the API. It's also possible that they may decide some of the possible uses and consequences are not what they intended.
Mistakes are often made. Corrections are possible. Nerfs happen for a reason.
Very good point, and it is actually MOST OFTEN the case.
In talking w/ devs, most of them can describe numerous situations where they implemented something without knowing before-hand what the full results would be. This happens almost always. And yet the general gaming public never seems to catch on to this fact.
When developing a game, it is often the case that you can only ever truly understand how a decision will affect the game, once it's actually in the game and being used. Even then, sometimes there are massive discrepancies once you open that same feature up to a much wider audience. There's a limit to how much we can predict.
While the devs have opened this game up to Addons, they have ALSO stated that they want the combat to be focused on what is going on on-screen. What the characters are doing. Many of these addons (the combat mod specifically, though) go completely counter to this vision for the game. It has you staring at UI bars and buff timers INSTEAD of the actual combat. Furthermore, as others have pointed out, it provides a significant advantage to those who have it. Heck even in beta most people are using it, and that number is growing.
The difference between knowing exactly what resources you're enemy is working with, and being nearly completely blind to this, is a HUGE advantage. Many PvP games are even built around acquiring such advantages (MOBAs for example). It is completely false to pretend like that isn't going to be an issue.
I do NOT want to have to download third party add-ons and looking at the PvP beta videos it's clear they offer a significant, and unfair advantage.
How about few Add-On disabled Cyrodiil to fight in - can this be done?
not sure what you mean.
Best solution is to use the rule sets already in the campaigns. ZOS has already anticipated for this discussion and taken appropriate steps that they can have Campaigns with different rule sets. So we should just accept that we will have options to play on add on free servers. Also potential other game sets may arise, something similar to capture the flag (Elder Scrolls) where everyone has to pour into the Imperial City and try to fight their way to scrolls (Daedric Titans and all) and get them back to one of your keeps and the campaign timer is much shorter.... crap, screw the add-on conversations, I think we need to talk about this.
Edit: Started thread to discuss non-add on rule sets. Will rephrase, the thread I created was for any discussion on rulesets that did NOT include whether or not we want add-ons.
I do NOT want to have to download third party add-ons and looking at the PvP beta videos it's clear they offer a significant, and unfair advantage.
How about few Add-On disabled Cyrodiil to fight in - can this be done?
not sure what you mean.
Best solution is to use the rule sets already in the campaigns. ZOS has already anticipated for this discussion and taken appropriate steps that they can have Campaigns with different rule sets. So we should just accept that we will have options to play on add on free servers. Also potential other game sets may arise, something similar to capture the flag (Elder Scrolls) where everyone has to pour into the Imperial City and try to fight their way to scrolls (Daedric Titans and all) and get them back to one of your keeps and the campaign timer is much shorter.... crap, screw the add-on conversations, I think we need to talk about this.
Edit: Started thread to discuss non-add on rule sets.
I do NOT want to have to download third party add-ons and looking at the PvP beta videos it's clear they offer a significant, and unfair advantage.
How about few Add-On disabled Cyrodiil to fight in - can this be done?
not sure what you mean.
Best solution is to use the rule sets already in the campaigns. ZOS has already anticipated for this discussion and taken appropriate steps that they can have Campaigns with different rule sets. So we should just accept that we will have options to play on add on free servers. Also potential other game sets may arise, something similar to capture the flag (Elder Scrolls) where everyone has to pour into the Imperial City and try to fight their way to scrolls (Daedric Titans and all) and get them back to one of your keeps and the campaign timer is much shorter.... crap, screw the add-on conversations, I think we need to talk about this.
Edit: Started thread to discuss non-add on rule sets.
You aware that is what the OP was asking for in this thread ?
Yes... that's why I said it.... the other post was for rulesets that do NOT include any discussion on add-ons. I will rephrase, the thread I created was for any discussion on rulesets that did NOT include whether or not we want add-ons.
I do NOT want to have to download third party add-ons and looking at the PvP beta videos it's clear they offer a significant, and unfair advantage.
How about few Add-On disabled Cyrodiil to fight in - can this be done?
not sure what you mean.
Best solution is to use the rule sets already in the campaigns. ZOS has already anticipated for this discussion and taken appropriate steps that they can have Campaigns with different rule sets. So we should just accept that we will have options to play on add on free servers. Also potential other game sets may arise, something similar to capture the flag (Elder Scrolls) where everyone has to pour into the Imperial City and try to fight their way to scrolls (Daedric Titans and all) and get them back to one of your keeps and the campaign timer is much shorter.... crap, screw the add-on conversations, I think we need to talk about this.
Edit: Started thread to discuss non-add on rule sets.
Another, very viable solution would to just allow players to customize how much data they allow other people to acquire with addons. Block your info for enemies, and allow it for allies by default.
Instead of flat-out preventing addons from being 'allowed', just get rid of the advantage they impose.
I can't see add-on's giving any real time combat advantage. All the real time combat info that you need to process is available via game graphics.
The combat add-ons I saw were more distracting than anything.
All I can see them as being good for is enhancement to gameplay such as map/crafting/gear etc.
Also, Zeni could block any add-on it choose.
Power Gamers and hardcore PvPers/PvEers wouldn't use them if they didn't offer an advantage. They'll try to sell you on the idea that these add-ons do nothing... but... if they didn't do anything... then they wouldn't want them so bad.
After you point that out, they'll go to the default argument "You don't have to use them if you don't want to." Which is blatantly false. If you want to participate in PvP... you have to have these add-ons, or you will be at an automatic disadvantage. So the idea of choice in this matter is actually a ruse.
Their last line of defense is to just call you stupid.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. A game needs to have a hard UI ruleset that does not allow modifications. Either put the information in the stock UI or don't. It hardly matters either way. What you can't have is a system where everyone is using something different. It creates an automatic issue with game balance. There is simply no way to refute this no matter how hard anyone tries.
I do NOT want to have to download third party add-ons and looking at the PvP beta videos it's clear they offer a significant, and unfair advantage.
How about few Add-On disabled Cyrodiil to fight in - can this be done?
not sure what you mean.
Best solution is to use the rule sets already in the campaigns. ZOS has already anticipated for this discussion and taken appropriate steps that they can have Campaigns with different rule sets. So we should just accept that we will have options to play on add on free servers. Also potential other game sets may arise, something similar to capture the flag (Elder Scrolls) where everyone has to pour into the Imperial City and try to fight their way to scrolls (Daedric Titans and all) and get them back to one of your keeps and the campaign timer is much shorter.... crap, screw the add-on conversations, I think we need to talk about this.
Edit: Started thread to discuss non-add on rule sets.
You aware that is what the OP was asking for in this thread ?
Yes... that's why I said it.... the other post was for rulesets that do NOT include any discussion on add-ons. I will rephrase, the thread I created was for any discussion on rulesets that did NOT include whether or not we want add-ons.
I got ya .. the syntax made it hard to understand.
while I can agree with some here about how some addons go to far this honestly just sounds like a bunch of crying because people cannot stand to lose in pvp. I remember this same argument in warhammer online about certain addons like target addons and call out assist addons. People pretty much tried to have them blacklisted and as less and less people used them then the argument went to pre-mades vs pug groups and how unfair it was because so many people in the game were too lazy to run with guild members or make some friends to team up with and play with regularly. All I can say is the add on crowd here crying so hard about them I really hope do not end up being the same crowd crying because a premade group stomped them because they too are to lazy to actually play with a organized team. Add-ons to give an advantage but so does ventrillo mumble and a good guild with organized skills, which by far completely out weighs any addon you add that is not a cheat program.
Ultimately the addon argument has been made. It has been shown that there is enough interest in an addon free area for it to be on the table.
The original post is more about having the ruleset than it is arguing about addons all over again. If you want to do that you should probably be in the existing thread. So you are not repeating yourself again.
Back on the topic of addon free pvp campaigns. The browser for these campaigns appears to have a section on rules and Zenmax themselves have spoken on alternative rulesets in the past.
Also there are already around 26 pvp campaigns - so the argument that is will fragment the player base to much is a tad off base. They already plan to fragment us. They already plan to have some form of rulesets. I will include a screenshot of the browser below and a link to the reddit topic on this.
Ultimately the arguement for addons does not need to be made or justified.
Addon support via a comprehensive API and .LUA scripting has always been in the plan. It has been a stated design goal from the outset and (the remarkably poor default UI aside) the devs have certainly delivered on this commitment.
Those demanding that addons are removed or have some form of "Opt in" mechanism are actually the ones who need to make an arguement for thier personal desires as it is those that run in contradiction to that devs original vision for the game.
/justsayin
The argument against add-ons has been made, and it is pretty comprehensive.
When you allow add-ons, you create imbalance in the playerbase.
The option to use add-ons, is not an option, as without them, you are at an automatic disadvantage. Thus, making the choice to not use them hurts you. Meaning you only have one correct choice to make.
No one can refute this. Try all you want. You can't.
Anyone can refute this.
Its just your personal opinion presented as fact with no supporting evidence.
Originally posted by cronius77 while I can agree with some here about how some addons go to far this honestly just sounds like a bunch of crying because people cannot stand to lose in pvp. I remember this same argument in warhammer online about certain addons like target addons and call out assist addons. People pretty much tried to have them blacklisted and as less and less people used them then the argument went to pre-mades vs pug groups and how unfair it was because so many people in the game were too lazy to run with guild members or make some friends to team up with and play with regularly. All I can say is the add on crowd here crying so hard about them I really hope do not end up being the same crowd crying because a premade group stomped them because they too are to lazy to actually play with a organized team. Add-ons to give an advantage but so does ventrillo mumble and a good guild with organized skills, which by far completely out weighs any addon you add that is not a cheat program.
Pre-made becomes rather inconsequential in world pvp. While they will always be more effective, it's not as much important than it would be in a 10vs10 instance.
People are not crying, they are asking for a simple fix on an issues they might have. No add-on campaign wouldn't reduce your fun in your campaign. And those people that rather have Elder Scroll PvP that resemble more of the common combat they been used to in other iteration of the IP can have their fun too.
The only people that I can see opposing it are people that rather not loose the easy prey that would make people not using any add-on. Since they are already planning to use any add-on that would give em an advantage it doesn't matter to them if others are using it, but would rather be in the same box with as many people not using em as possible.
Certain addons are useful for the game, the glaring issue is that to much information is being given out. I shouldn't know how much stamina or magicka my target has, I shouldn't be able to auto-block/interupt abilities. I should know what buffs and debuffs are running on my character. Zeni is going to have to change the player data the API is making available and prohibit any type of auto key press. I'm not sure why Zeni is embracing the modding community , but they are ... they now need to refine what's acceptable and what isn't. I don't want addons playing the game for me, and I certainly don't want others gaining an advantage over me because they are utilizing training wheels.
My friend has just bought some really expensive football boots that are better than mine. They provide advantages on the pitch that my boots do not in terms of better grip, manouverability and they also have special textures that allow a player wearing them to leverage more spin on the ball when striking it.
By the rationale of a small minority here I am therefore FORCED to go out and buy the same pair of boots as my friend.
Of course, I have chosen not to...
The point being, at no point have I ever been FORCED to buy them just because someone else benefits from using them in a competetive arena whereas I do not. I could choose to buy them and level the playing field.....but no one is FORCING me to do anything its about personal choice.
Pro sports regulate what equipment can be used. Racing also regulates the cars so everyone is within the same margin and so on.
Your analogy fails.
And yes add-ons will be mandatory for you to compete in pvp and play in pve. Funny people say they are tired of WoW clones but yet.....ask for the same things to be available.
The fact that so many need a third party program to tell them that standing in the red circle is bad even though their hit points are falling and they are gonna die makes me laugh.
They should also add something so you can see exactly what gear they have and abilities like in Aion had so the pvp'rs could avoid the challenging fights and only fight the guaranteed wins.
There are mods that essentially "auto" interrupt players. They are not truly automatic but rather assist in almost instant interrupts, by scanning all the skill going on and where and mapping a indicator that the plaeyr should or should not press a button. The player themselves has no real idea what skill is getting interupted and maybe not even which target as the addon figures all that out, they merely need to press a pre-mapped button when a light turns green.
So although TESO dos not allow automatic keypress style addons, it allows enough stuff for this to be gotten around for some addons to be essentially "auto" for non-brain dead players.
So yes they can be a real problem. If everyone does this then the "skilled" play of interrupt style combat will be mostly undermined and similar things can be done with healing and some other things. Where you simply write addons that require a human keypress but they do everything according to a heuristic for dectection and the actual action and the human does no real thinking or observing.
And lest you think heuristics are not powerful in these situations, the common coin changing/box packing heuristics while not guaranteed optimal are almost always optimal; like 99% of cases. This is taught is all basic computer science algorithm classes many simple heuristics are quite effective. Health bars and such are not complex enough that these styles of heuristics cannot have a powerful effect.
I can't see add-on's giving any real time combat advantage. All the real time combat info that you need to process is available via game graphics.
The combat add-ons I saw were more distracting than anything.
All I can see them as being good for is enhancement to gameplay such as map/crafting/gear etc.
Also, Zeni could block any add-on it choose.
Power Gamers and hardcore PvPers/PvEers wouldn't use them if they didn't offer an advantage. They'll try to sell you on the idea that these add-ons do nothing... but... if they didn't do anything... then they wouldn't want them so bad.
After you point that out, they'll go to the default argument "You don't have to use them if you don't want to." Which is blatantly false. If you want to participate in PvP... you have to have these add-ons, or you will be at an automatic disadvantage. So the idea of choice in this matter is actually a ruse.
Their last line of defense is to just call you stupid.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. A game needs to have a hard UI ruleset that does not allow modifications. Either put the information in the stock UI or don't. It hardly matters either way. What you can't have is a system where everyone is using something different. It creates an automatic issue with game balance. There is simply no way to refute this no matter how hard anyone tries.
1. Thats nothing more than your opinion that a game should have a hard coded UI. I would have no problem at all with a hard coded UI if the developers were capable of giving us a UI that at the very least, met the requirements for the majority of cornerstone themepark functionality.
ESO's stock UI is a prime example of one of the worst MMORPG interfaces ever imo.
Want to know how close your target is to death? Just guess.
Want to know how much action bar your target has? Just guess.
Want to know if you OR your target have active buffs / debuffs? Just guess.
Want to see your targets cast bar so you can get the interupt timed correctly? Just guess.
Brilliant.
2. The arguement "No one if forcing you to use them" is obviously not false. You are NOT being FORCED to use anything or do anything you don't choose to.
I would use some addons but do you really think I can be bothered to go around scrutinising every mod released because I am FORCED to use it? Fuck no, there will be a few mods I use and loads I do not bother with.
Did you read that bit? I will CHOOSE not you use loads of the available mods and I will accept the fact that making that decision may put me at a slight disadvantage in the occasional, very situationall scenario....
So tell me again if mods FORCE everyone to use them....why am I not being FORCED to use all of them? Why has little old me been able to retain a semblence of free will in regard to this matter? We are FORCED to use them all are we not?
Could it be because there is no FORCED about it? Only your own personal CHOICES.
The fact of the matter is, you want to CHOOSE what is to you the moral high ground and not use them, but at the same time you WANT the benefits they bring to the gaming experience. You just dont want to ADMIT you want the benefits so you use rediculous sensationalism like saying you are FORCED to do this and that....really?
So is there like, literally someone with a gun to your head threatening you well being if you do not use mods in a video game?
No?.....Oh so you are not being forced to use addons then, right? Thanks for clarifying.
If this game would not have PvP I would have agreed with you on every Point your making, but since this games strong suit is PvP in Cyrodil every possible mod that gives any player an edge becomes a must in many Groups /Guilds etc etc, you can fool yourself anyway you like in telling us that it's "your own choice" , but in the end you will be almost banned from any social activity if someone get's to know that you run around without this or that mod.
You are not included among the players that feel forced since you obviously chose to have addons that alters the game UI in many advantegous ways by your own free will.
My own view on this is ...If the developers created a PvP game and has this and that functunality and left some of it out like a "radar" thats because they Think it get's bettter without it..
But in the case of Zenimax , I'm not sure what to Believe since they added a mod intefaca to the game..either they will ban mods that create advantages (I hope so) or the game will force most players to use this and that mod..thats a fact.
Unfortunately there really needs to be a two part solution.
TESO needs to introduce a less powerful AddOn API and have a campaign for that. Some addons are purely aesthetic and these can be very valuable.
There are definitely addons that make use of various API calls to provide far more information or actually do things for the player that are very powerful. Anyone saying there are not addons that give VERY large advantages are either ignorant or lying.
But these advantageous addons are typically particular bits of information such as showing informtation about skills to is otherwise not available or doing things like managing gear extremely fast etc.
An addon that changes the size of your health bar or put it under your feet, really should not be an issue in anyway.
Ultimately the addon argument has been made. It has been shown that there is enough interest in an addon free area for it to be on the table.
The original post is more about having the ruleset than it is arguing about addons all over again. If you want to do that you should probably be in the existing thread. So you are not repeating yourself again.
Back on the topic of addon free pvp campaigns. The browser for these campaigns appears to have a section on rules and Zenmax themselves have spoken on alternative rulesets in the past.
Also there are already around 26 pvp campaigns - so the argument that is will fragment the player base to much is a tad off base. They already plan to fragment us. They already plan to have some form of rulesets. I will include a screenshot of the browser below and a link to the reddit topic on this.
Ultimately the arguement for addons does not need to be made or justified.
Addon support via a comprehensive API and .LUA scripting has always been in the plan. It has been a stated design goal from the outset and (the remarkably poor default UI aside) the devs have certainly delivered on this commitment.
Those demanding that addons are removed or have some form of "Opt in" mechanism are actually the ones who need to make an arguement for thier personal desires as it is those that run in contradiction to that devs original vision for the game.
/justsayin
The argument against add-ons has been made, and it is pretty comprehensive.
When you allow add-ons, you create imbalance in the playerbase.
The option to use add-ons, is not an option, as without them, you are at an automatic disadvantage. Thus, making the choice to not use them hurts you. Meaning you only have one correct choice to make.
No one can refute this. Try all you want. You can't.
Anyone can refute this.
Its just your personal opinion presented as fact with no supporting evidence.
Refute this:
Applying add-ons that give an advantage over someone not using the add-on will create an unbalanced game.
Refute this:
Not using add-ons that give an advantage against people not using add-ons will not be balanced if the person not using the add-ons faces someone who is using them.
Refute this:
Choosing not to use add-ons that give an advantage against people not using add-ons against someone who is using the add-ons has an automatic disadvantage in the competition, thus rendering the choice not to use the add-on a negative affect in how they choose to play the game.
The statements are self-evident through common sense.
If someone has 1 apple more than someone with only 1 apple, then the person with 2 apples has more to eat.
If someone with one apple wants to have an equal amount of apples to eat as someone with 2 apples, they must add another apple to their collection.
Someone who chooses to have 1 apple instead of 2 apples is automatically at a disadvantage when compared against someone who has 2 apples.
This isn't brain surgery or rocket science, guy. I'm stating a fact - I'm not stating an opinion.
Unfortunately there really needs to be a two part solution.
TESO needs to introduce a less powerful AddOn API and have a campaign for that. Some addons are purely aesthetic and these can be very valuable.
There are definitely addons that make use of various API calls to provide far more information or actually do things for the player that are very powerful. Anyone saying there are not addons that give VERY large advantages are either ignorant or lying.
But these advantageous addons are typically particular bits of information such as showing informtation about skills to is otherwise not available or doing things like managing gear extremely fast etc.
An addon that changes the size of your health bar or put it under your feet, really should not be an issue in anyway.
Unfortunately there really needs to be a two part solution.
TESO needs to introduce a less powerful AddOn API and have a campaign for that. Some addons are purely aesthetic and these can be very valuable.
There are definitely addons that make use of various API calls to provide far more information or actually do things for the player that are very powerful. Anyone saying there are not addons that give VERY large advantages are either ignorant or lying.
But these advantageous addons are typically particular bits of information such as showing informtation about skills to is otherwise not available or doing things like managing gear extremely fast etc.
An addon that changes the size of your health bar or put it under your feet, really should not be an issue in anyway.
Perfectly sums it up, thanks Gestalt.
I agree. I don't think anyone is concerned with purely aesthetic mods, and the bulk of my argument is not really related to this circumstance. I would, of course, prefer an add-on free game entirely, but I'm willing to compromise with the right conditions. I would have no issue with someone who simply wants to rearrange the information they already have available to them.
I draw the line when they start being able to know information they wouldn't otherwise know, or can manipulate gameplay because of this knowledge - such as macro-building for auto-heals and debuffs, etc.
The entire first half of your post is still just your opinion. If they were in any way facts they would be supported by imperical evidence. Saying 2 + 2 = 4 is an irrefutable fact.
Saying addons are bad just because you personally think their effects are negative is not a fact. It is your personal opinion and as such can be refuted by any one at any time.
Regarding your failed apples analogy. The person choosing to remain with 1 apple is at no disadvantage. That person chose to stay at 1 apple when they could have easily picked another from the tree. Therefore they were happy with their choice at the time. If they were not happy to stay with 1 apple they WOULD have picked another. Therefore any hunger felt is a symptom of their decisions and if they are happy to stay with 1 apple and feel hungry later that is down to them. They are accountable for their choices. The apple tree and all of the apples on the tree were available to everyone...just like the API is...
Saying addons are bad just because you personally think their effects are negative is not a fact. It is your personal opinion and as such can be refuted by any one at any time.
Regarding your failed apples analogy. The person choosing to remain with 1 apple is at no disadvantage. That person chose to stay at 1 apple when they could have easily picked another from the tree. Therefore they were happy with their choice at the time. If they were not happy to stay with 1 apple they WOULD have picked another. Therefore any hunger felt is a symptom of their decisions and if they are happy to stay with 1 apple and feel hungry later that is down to them. They are accountable for their choices. The apple tree and all of the apples on the tree were available to everyone...just like the API is...
Shush, you're looking like a fool now. Someone posted a link earlier.. Just read it and come back to us then:
Now, you fail to see the big flaw in your reasoning... If someone isn't aware that there is more than 1 apple (as you are obviously not aware of the existence of some mods), then there is obviously no way they are going to pick the said apple (or the said mod).
So no.
It's not an "active decision" to not use add-ons, it's a "passive consequence" (NOT a decision) due to a lack of information (90% of players won't be lurking on forums constantly, I imagine).
And before you start trying to counter by saying "well they can research the information then, they have the same opportunities as me and others to do so".
Yes, but then the skills REQUIRED to perform well IN the game are in now way RELATED to the actual game any more. This is a problem and you are not "skilled at the game" any more, but instead skilled at researching add-ons, skilled at development, or simply have too much time on your hands.
Fundamentally, well designed games introduce a limited set of rules (e.g. chess, cards), and by opening the API that allow to change/influence those rules too much (imagine playing a chess game fairly against http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightmare_Chess) you create an environment where the competition is just based too heavily on other factors than the skills in game. Which is bad.
Now that's an extreme example, and in reality the outcome won't be influenced by more than 1 - 10%... But that's still too much if the game intends to be competitive (not that ESO have ever claimed - or shown, as they obviously allow the API so far - they were planning on having a competitive game).
Comments
Very good point, and it is actually MOST OFTEN the case.
In talking w/ devs, most of them can describe numerous situations where they implemented something without knowing before-hand what the full results would be. This happens almost always. And yet the general gaming public never seems to catch on to this fact.
When developing a game, it is often the case that you can only ever truly understand how a decision will affect the game, once it's actually in the game and being used. Even then, sometimes there are massive discrepancies once you open that same feature up to a much wider audience. There's a limit to how much we can predict.
While the devs have opened this game up to Addons, they have ALSO stated that they want the combat to be focused on what is going on on-screen. What the characters are doing. Many of these addons (the combat mod specifically, though) go completely counter to this vision for the game. It has you staring at UI bars and buff timers INSTEAD of the actual combat. Furthermore, as others have pointed out, it provides a significant advantage to those who have it. Heck even in beta most people are using it, and that number is growing.
The difference between knowing exactly what resources you're enemy is working with, and being nearly completely blind to this, is a HUGE advantage. Many PvP games are even built around acquiring such advantages (MOBAs for example). It is completely false to pretend like that isn't going to be an issue.
Best solution is to use the rule sets already in the campaigns. ZOS has already anticipated for this discussion and taken appropriate steps that they can have Campaigns with different rule sets. So we should just accept that we will have options to play on add on free servers. Also potential other game sets may arise, something similar to capture the flag (Elder Scrolls) where everyone has to pour into the Imperial City and try to fight their way to scrolls (Daedric Titans and all) and get them back to one of your keeps and the campaign timer is much shorter.... crap, screw the add-on conversations, I think we need to talk about this.
Edit: Started thread to discuss non-add on rule sets. Will rephrase, the thread I created was for any discussion on rulesets that did NOT include whether or not we want add-ons.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6223568/thread/406921#6223568
You aware that is what the OP was asking for in this thread ?
Yes... that's why I said it.... the other post was for rulesets that do NOT include any discussion on add-ons. I will rephrase, the thread I created was for any discussion on rulesets that did NOT include whether or not we want add-ons.
Another, very viable solution would to just allow players to customize how much data they allow other people to acquire with addons. Block your info for enemies, and allow it for allies by default.
Instead of flat-out preventing addons from being 'allowed', just get rid of the advantage they impose.
Hey devs, listen, and listen good...
I got ya .. the syntax made it hard to understand.
Anyone can refute this.
Its just your personal opinion presented as fact with no supporting evidence.
Hey the rage Monday was "How dare you want to take away our add-ons!!!"
Now the rage is "How dare you fragment the player base!!!"
I lolled
Look here http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline
Life IS Feudal
Pre-made becomes rather inconsequential in world pvp. While they will always be more effective, it's not as much important than it would be in a 10vs10 instance.
People are not crying, they are asking for a simple fix on an issues they might have. No add-on campaign wouldn't reduce your fun in your campaign. And those people that rather have Elder Scroll PvP that resemble more of the common combat they been used to in other iteration of the IP can have their fun too.
The only people that I can see opposing it are people that rather not loose the easy prey that would make people not using any add-on. Since they are already planning to use any add-on that would give em an advantage it doesn't matter to them if others are using it, but would rather be in the same box with as many people not using em as possible.
Certain addons are useful for the game, the glaring issue is that to much information is being given out. I shouldn't know how much stamina or magicka my target has, I shouldn't be able to auto-block/interupt abilities. I should know what buffs and debuffs are running on my character. Zeni is going to have to change the player data the API is making available and prohibit any type of auto key press. I'm not sure why Zeni is embracing the modding community , but they are ... they now need to refine what's acceptable and what isn't. I don't want addons playing the game for me, and I certainly don't want others gaining an advantage over me because they are utilizing training wheels.
LOL these topics
Maaan .. I am expecting soooo noobs to blame addons for theirs dead in pvp
Won't happen, there will probably be mod free campaigns for those people.
Pro sports regulate what equipment can be used. Racing also regulates the cars so everyone is within the same margin and so on.
Your analogy fails.
And yes add-ons will be mandatory for you to compete in pvp and play in pve. Funny people say they are tired of WoW clones but yet.....ask for the same things to be available.
The fact that so many need a third party program to tell them that standing in the red circle is bad even though their hit points are falling and they are gonna die makes me laugh.
They should also add something so you can see exactly what gear they have and abilities like in Aion had so the pvp'rs could avoid the challenging fights and only fight the guaranteed wins.
There are mods that essentially "auto" interrupt players. They are not truly automatic but rather assist in almost instant interrupts, by scanning all the skill going on and where and mapping a indicator that the plaeyr should or should not press a button. The player themselves has no real idea what skill is getting interupted and maybe not even which target as the addon figures all that out, they merely need to press a pre-mapped button when a light turns green.
So although TESO dos not allow automatic keypress style addons, it allows enough stuff for this to be gotten around for some addons to be essentially "auto" for non-brain dead players.
So yes they can be a real problem. If everyone does this then the "skilled" play of interrupt style combat will be mostly undermined and similar things can be done with healing and some other things. Where you simply write addons that require a human keypress but they do everything according to a heuristic for dectection and the actual action and the human does no real thinking or observing.
And lest you think heuristics are not powerful in these situations, the common coin changing/box packing heuristics while not guaranteed optimal are almost always optimal; like 99% of cases. This is taught is all basic computer science algorithm classes many simple heuristics are quite effective. Health bars and such are not complex enough that these styles of heuristics cannot have a powerful effect.
If this game would not have PvP I would have agreed with you on every Point your making, but since this games strong suit is PvP in Cyrodil every possible mod that gives any player an edge becomes a must in many Groups /Guilds etc etc, you can fool yourself anyway you like in telling us that it's "your own choice" , but in the end you will be almost banned from any social activity if someone get's to know that you run around without this or that mod.
You are not included among the players that feel forced since you obviously chose to have addons that alters the game UI in many advantegous ways by your own free will.
My own view on this is ...If the developers created a PvP game and has this and that functunality and left some of it out like a "radar" thats because they Think it get's bettter without it..
But in the case of Zenimax , I'm not sure what to Believe since they added a mod intefaca to the game..either they will ban mods that create advantages (I hope so) or the game will force most players to use this and that mod..thats a fact.
Unfortunately there really needs to be a two part solution.
TESO needs to introduce a less powerful AddOn API and have a campaign for that. Some addons are purely aesthetic and these can be very valuable.
There are definitely addons that make use of various API calls to provide far more information or actually do things for the player that are very powerful. Anyone saying there are not addons that give VERY large advantages are either ignorant or lying.
But these advantageous addons are typically particular bits of information such as showing informtation about skills to is otherwise not available or doing things like managing gear extremely fast etc.
An addon that changes the size of your health bar or put it under your feet, really should not be an issue in anyway.
Just to put this baby to rest.
This is how you make an interrupt bot:
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/1zgifa/tamriel_foundry_the_new_elitist_jerks/cftioj0
Anyone who wants to say that is not an advantage please do so, saves me the trouble of figuring out who is worth listening to.
Refute this:
Applying add-ons that give an advantage over someone not using the add-on will create an unbalanced game.
Refute this:
Not using add-ons that give an advantage against people not using add-ons will not be balanced if the person not using the add-ons faces someone who is using them.
Refute this:
Choosing not to use add-ons that give an advantage against people not using add-ons against someone who is using the add-ons has an automatic disadvantage in the competition, thus rendering the choice not to use the add-on a negative affect in how they choose to play the game.
The statements are self-evident through common sense.
If someone has 1 apple more than someone with only 1 apple, then the person with 2 apples has more to eat.
If someone with one apple wants to have an equal amount of apples to eat as someone with 2 apples, they must add another apple to their collection.
Someone who chooses to have 1 apple instead of 2 apples is automatically at a disadvantage when compared against someone who has 2 apples.
This isn't brain surgery or rocket science, guy. I'm stating a fact - I'm not stating an opinion.
Perfectly sums it up, thanks Gestalt.
I agree. I don't think anyone is concerned with purely aesthetic mods, and the bulk of my argument is not really related to this circumstance. I would, of course, prefer an add-on free game entirely, but I'm willing to compromise with the right conditions. I would have no issue with someone who simply wants to rearrange the information they already have available to them.
I draw the line when they start being able to know information they wouldn't otherwise know, or can manipulate gameplay because of this knowledge - such as macro-building for auto-heals and debuffs, etc.
The entire first half of your post is still just your opinion. If they were in any way facts they would be supported by imperical evidence. Saying 2 + 2 = 4 is an irrefutable fact.
Saying addons are bad just because you personally think their effects are negative is not a fact. It is your personal opinion and as such can be refuted by any one at any time.
Regarding your failed apples analogy. The person choosing to remain with 1 apple is at no disadvantage. That person chose to stay at 1 apple when they could have easily picked another from the tree. Therefore they were happy with their choice at the time. If they were not happy to stay with 1 apple they WOULD have picked another. Therefore any hunger felt is a symptom of their decisions and if they are happy to stay with 1 apple and feel hungry later that is down to them. They are accountable for their choices. The apple tree and all of the apples on the tree were available to everyone...just like the API is...
Shush, you're looking like a fool now. Someone posted a link earlier.. Just read it and come back to us then:
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/1zgifa/tamriel_foundry_the_new_elitist_jerks/cftioj0
Now, you fail to see the big flaw in your reasoning... If someone isn't aware that there is more than 1 apple (as you are obviously not aware of the existence of some mods), then there is obviously no way they are going to pick the said apple (or the said mod).
So no.
It's not an "active decision" to not use add-ons, it's a "passive consequence" (NOT a decision) due to a lack of information (90% of players won't be lurking on forums constantly, I imagine).
And before you start trying to counter by saying "well they can research the information then, they have the same opportunities as me and others to do so".
Yes, but then the skills REQUIRED to perform well IN the game are in now way RELATED to the actual game any more. This is a problem and you are not "skilled at the game" any more, but instead skilled at researching add-ons, skilled at development, or simply have too much time on your hands.
Fundamentally, well designed games introduce a limited set of rules (e.g. chess, cards), and by opening the API that allow to change/influence those rules too much (imagine playing a chess game fairly against http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightmare_Chess) you create an environment where the competition is just based too heavily on other factors than the skills in game. Which is bad.
Now that's an extreme example, and in reality the outcome won't be influenced by more than 1 - 10%... But that's still too much if the game intends to be competitive (not that ESO have ever claimed - or shown, as they obviously allow the API so far - they were planning on having a competitive game).
In the last weekend beta i got invited into a pvp group and after a while someone in this group did suddenly post a:
Group Damage Meter
The Group Damage Meter shows for every nickname the total dmage and the % damage of the group.
But if it is really true that the game supports AUTO INTERRUPT BOTS Iam not sure if the pvp is going into a direction I appreciate.
I dont want to have this ingame. No bots or auto-macros...that would destroy the pvp gameplay and leads to very unbalanced gameplay.