The entire first half of your post is still just your opinion. If they were in any way facts they would be supported by imperical evidence. Saying 2 + 2 = 4 is an irrefutable fact.
Saying addons are bad just because you personally think their effects are negative is not a fact. It is your personal opinion and as such can be refuted by any one at any time.
Regarding your failed apples analogy. The person choosing to remain with 1 apple is at no disadvantage. That person chose to stay at 1 apple when they could have easily picked another from the tree. Therefore they were happy with their choice at the time. If they were not happy to stay with 1 apple they WOULD have picked another. Therefore any hunger felt is a symptom of their decisions and if they are happy to stay with 1 apple and feel hungry later that is down to them. They are accountable for their choices. The apple tree and all of the apples on the tree were available to everyone...just like the API is...
You're trying to refute the wrong arguments. I clearly stated a list of items for you to refute. You have failed to do this.
If the person wants to compete - they don't have a choice. If they don't use the add-ons... they're going to lose. It's that simple.
This is what you're arguing:
Someone who wants to be highly competitive in a game where everyone else who is highly competitive uses add-ons which grant them advantages in combat is going to somehow make the choice to not use these add-ons...
...
This is beyond dumb. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time responding to this non-sense.
Saying addons are bad just because you personally think their effects are negative is not a fact. It is your personal opinion and as such can be refuted by any one at any time.
Regarding your failed apples analogy. The person choosing to remain with 1 apple is at no disadvantage. That person chose to stay at 1 apple when they could have easily picked another from the tree. Therefore they were happy with their choice at the time. If they were not happy to stay with 1 apple they WOULD have picked another. Therefore any hunger felt is a symptom of their decisions and if they are happy to stay with 1 apple and feel hungry later that is down to them. They are accountable for their choices. The apple tree and all of the apples on the tree were available to everyone...just like the API is...
Shush, you're looking like a fool now. Someone posted a link earlier.. Just read it and come back to us then:
Now, you fail to see the big flaw in your reasoning... If someone isn't aware that there is more than 1 apple (as you are obviously not aware of the existence of some mods), then there is obviously no way they are going to pick the said apple (or the said mod).
So no.
It's not an "active decision" to not use add-ons, it's a "passive consequence" (NOT a decision) due to a lack of information (90% of players won't be lurking on forums constantly, I imagine).
And before you start trying to counter by saying "well they can research the information then, they have the same opportunities as me and others to do so".
Yes, but then the skills REQUIRED to perform well IN the game are in now way RELATED to the actual game any more. This is a problem and you are not "skilled at the game" any more, but instead skilled at researching add-ons, skilled at development, or simply have too much time on your hands.
Fundamentally, well designed games introduce a limited set of rules (e.g. chess, cards), and by opening the API that allow to change/influence those rules too much (imagine playing a chess game fairly against http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightmare_Chess) you create an environment where the competition is just based too heavily on other factors than the skills in game. Which is bad.
Now that's an extreme example, and in reality the outcome won't be influenced by more than 1 - 10%... But that's still too much if the game intends to be competitive (not that ESO have ever claimed - or shown, as they obviously allow the API so far - they were planning on having a competitive game).
Whilst your link is an example of a mod that even I consider a step too far....it is also irrelevant to the point in discussion.
It IS an ACTIVE decision to use mods for PvP.
Does the game prevent you from PvPing without mods? No.
Will you have an advantage via the use of some mods? Yes.
Does the game make the decision as to whether YOU choose to use mods? No.
Do other players make the decision as to whether YOU choose to use mods? No.
Do YOU make the decision as to whether YOU choose to use mods? Yes.
THAT is an active decision on your part. Yes, it IS. Now, you may well not be as effective in combat as someone who is using mods, that is a fact. So when making YOUR decision as to whether to use mods or not, you weigh up the consequences....
"I really dislike mods"..."but I'll have a disadvantage if I dont use them"....
YOUR decision is then a) use them or b) don't use them, It really is that simple and here is the proof:
If your assertion that mods force people to use them and remove free will from the player, why is it that the vast majority of people use a handful of their favourite mods but they do not use every single one.
There were about 1,000 different mods available for WAR...if your claim was true every single player would be using every single mod. Every, Single, One. Because they were forced to.....
How many players in WAR do you think used all 1,000 available mods because they were forced to?
The entire first half of your post is still just your opinion. If they were in any way facts they would be supported by imperical evidence. Saying 2 + 2 = 4 is an irrefutable fact.
Saying addons are bad just because you personally think their effects are negative is not a fact. It is your personal opinion and as such can be refuted by any one at any time.
Regarding your failed apples analogy. The person choosing to remain with 1 apple is at no disadvantage. That person chose to stay at 1 apple when they could have easily picked another from the tree. Therefore they were happy with their choice at the time. If they were not happy to stay with 1 apple they WOULD have picked another. Therefore any hunger felt is a symptom of their decisions and if they are happy to stay with 1 apple and feel hungry later that is down to them. They are accountable for their choices. The apple tree and all of the apples on the tree were available to everyone...just like the API is...
You're trying to refute the wrong arguments. I clearly stated a list of items for you to refute. You have failed to do this.
If the person wants to compete - they don't have a choice. If they don't use the add-ons... they're going to lose. It's that simple.
This is what you're arguing:
Someone who wants to be highly competitive in a game where everyone else who is highly competitive uses add-ons which grant them advantages in combat is going to somehow make the choice to not use these add-ons...
...
This is beyond dumb. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time responding to this non-sense.
If you feel so strongly that addons are wrong, you will choose not to use them and just suck up the few extra deaths here and there.
If you feel so strongly that addons are vital you will choose to use them and score a few extra kills because of it.
The game does not prevent you from PvPing without mods. It's down to personal preference.
Your arguement that other people using them removes your free will is so overly dramatic it's nonsense.
Noone has removed your free will to do or not do anything. You gather the available info, weigh up the pros and cons and then make a decision which you feel best suits YOU.
If I buy the game, I may use a few addons but I will not use all of them and do you know why that is? Because NO ONE IS FORCING ME TO......
As previous posters have stated, the allowance and use of custom add-ons is going to create a huge disparity in PvP and PvE capabilities among the game's population. While perfect balance is impossible, it should be for the most part strived for especially in a competitive setting like Cyrodil PvP. This feature will only push it into further imbalance. Games need rules and restrictions to function well.
Even with that being said I am not completely against add-ons, but there needs to be some sort of regulations to prevent people from just putting anything in the game that they want or this will turn into a huge mess.
Also to restate what an earlier poster said in so many words: why do you want to turn ESO into WoW. Its minimal UI is one of its distinguishing features. Arguably it lacks some "basic" features, but that should be edited by Zenimax themselves. It does not mean we need custom add-ons available so people can transform the game into something not even resembling its former self and vision. If you get anxious playing a game when you can actually see your character and happenings in the world and its not plastered over with tons of meters and charts, there are plenty of other previously released and populated mmos that will provide this for you. We really do not need another....
Taken from another thread and this sounds promising:
We reached out to Zenimax Online Studios for comment on this issue and this is what they had to say:
As we get closer to launch, our beta events have continued to grow in player-size, and that growth has resulted in even more and more of you taking the time to experiment with our UI modding tools. It’s exciting to see the amazing add-ons you have come up with and for us, as developers, it’s also a very important part of the beta process. Seeing what the community wants to add or change is helpful as we continue to tweak and balance the game – what are people looking for? what works? what doesn’t? Finding the right answers to these questions often means leaving the API very open during this beta phase. It helps us see where limits may or may not be and helps us determine what makes the best possible ESO experience for everyone.
We welcome creativity and have built ESO on player-choice, but as a game played with thousands of others, we also must be mindful of any mods that give clear mechanical advantages in competitive situations. Maintaining a level playing field will always be our first priority. Our intent with add-ons is to encourage you to modify your UI in a way that is more fitting for your personal play-style, but not ones that could allow you to make choices for others. We do not want those who aren’t interested in using an add-on to feel compelled to do so because they cannot remain competitive without them. As we continue beta testing, we’ll continue to evaluate add-ons and the implications they have on other players, but you can expect changes to the API before launch and will share that information as it becomes available. Thank you to all of you that have created add-ons during this time – we appreciate your help in making ESO the best it can be.
Taken from another thread and this sounds promising:
We reached out to Zenimax Online Studios for comment on this issue and this is what they had to say:
As we get closer to launch, our beta events have continued to grow in player-size, and that growth has resulted in even more and more of you taking the time to experiment with our UI modding tools. It’s exciting to see the amazing add-ons you have come up with and for us, as developers, it’s also a very important part of the beta process. Seeing what the community wants to add or change is helpful as we continue to tweak and balance the game – what are people looking for? what works? what doesn’t? Finding the right answers to these questions often means leaving the API very open during this beta phase. It helps us see where limits may or may not be and helps us determine what makes the best possible ESO experience for everyone.
We welcome creativity and have built ESO on player-choice, but as a game played with thousands of others, we also must be mindful of any mods that give clear mechanical advantages in competitive situations. Maintaining a level playing field will always be our first priority. Our intent with add-ons is to encourage you to modify your UI in a way that is more fitting for your personal play-style, but not ones that could allow you to make choices for others. We do not want those who aren’t interested in using an add-on to feel compelled to do so because they cannot remain competitive without them. As we continue beta testing, we’ll continue to evaluate add-ons and the implications they have on other players, but you can expect changes to the API before launch and will share that information as it becomes available. Thank you to all of you that have created add-ons during this time – we appreciate your help in making ESO the best it can be.
Was just about to post this. It's from the interview mmorpg did.
Anyways anyone here arguing for the auto interrupts are frigin idiots. I don't want to play a game where ANY time I start to cast something longer than .2s I get interrupted. If people are interrupting me because they see the animation and realize what I'm casting then I'm completely fine with it, but using a bot? No thanks.
Taken from another thread and this sounds promising:
We reached out to Zenimax Online Studios for comment on this issue and this is what they had to say:
As we get closer to launch, our beta events have continued to grow in player-size, and that growth has resulted in even more and more of you taking the time to experiment with our UI modding tools. It’s exciting to see the amazing add-ons you have come up with and for us, as developers, it’s also a very important part of the beta process. Seeing what the community wants to add or change is helpful as we continue to tweak and balance the game – what are people looking for? what works? what doesn’t? Finding the right answers to these questions often means leaving the API very open during this beta phase. It helps us see where limits may or may not be and helps us determine what makes the best possible ESO experience for everyone.
We welcome creativity and have built ESO on player-choice, but as a game played with thousands of others, we also must be mindful of any mods that give clear mechanical advantages in competitive situations. Maintaining a level playing field will always be our first priority. Our intent with add-ons is to encourage you to modify your UI in a way that is more fitting for your personal play-style, but not ones that could allow you to make choices for others. We do not want those who aren’t interested in using an add-on to feel compelled to do so because they cannot remain competitive without them. As we continue beta testing, we’ll continue to evaluate add-ons and the implications they have on other players, but you can expect changes to the API before launch and will share that information as it becomes available. Thank you to all of you that have created add-ons during this time – we appreciate your help in making ESO the best it can be.
Was just about to post this. It's from the interview mmorpg did.
Anyways anyone here arguing for the auto interrupts are frigin idiots. I don't want to play a game where ANY time I start to cast something longer than .2s I get interrupted. If people are interrupting me because they see the animation and realize what I'm casting then I'm completely fine with it, but using a bot? No thanks.
To understand it, you first have to get into the mindset of the players who support macro's and bots.
They are terrible gamers.
They aren't very good, which there is nothing wrong with, but their ego doesn't permit it. So they find ways to bolster their lack of skill by using 3rd party software. There is nothing new about this, cheater's mentality.
In the last weekend beta i got invited into a pvp group and after a while someone in this group did suddenly post a:
Group Damage Meter
The Group Damage Meter shows for every nickname the total dmage and the % damage of the group.
But if it is really true that the game supports AUTO INTERRUPT BOTS Iam not sure if the pvp is going into a direction I appreciate.
I dont want to have this ingame. No bots or auto-macros...that would destroy the pvp gameplay and leads to very unbalanced gameplay.
Well, apparently, this is exactly what everyone in this thread who is Pro-Add-ons wants.
[mod edit]
Then you are against those ? An auto interrupt, auto exploit weakness is a bot. If you agree with this then you agree with the majority here. If you can or cannot see other stamina/magicka is a bit trickier. If Zen makes that available to everyone in the basic UI fine, but if it's not then it shouldn't be available thru mods.
In the last weekend beta i got invited into a pvp group and after a while someone in this group did suddenly post a:
Group Damage Meter
The Group Damage Meter shows for every nickname the total dmage and the % damage of the group.
But if it is really true that the game supports AUTO INTERRUPT BOTS Iam not sure if the pvp is going into a direction I appreciate.
I dont want to have this ingame. No bots or auto-macros...that would destroy the pvp gameplay and leads to very unbalanced gameplay.
Well, apparently, this is exactly what everyone in this thread who is Pro-Add-ons wants.
[mod edit]
Then you are against those ? An auto interrupt, auto exploit weakness is a bot. If you agree with this then you agree with the majority here. If you can or cannot see other stamina/magicka is a bit trickier. If Zen makes that available to everyone in the basic UI fine, but if it's not then it shouldn't be available thru mods.
I would be absolutely against any kind of botting or macro scripts that automate anything.
What I am not against is addons that add a unit frame to my UI to display things like:
Target health
Target stamina
Target cast bar
Players & Target buffs/debuffs
Target of Target
If you let me have visibility of things like health and cast bar at least I can assess whats going on and time my interupts myself, rather than simply guessing and hoping because all of these subtle visual cues and particle effects will be lost in the zerg therefore traditional unit frames on the UI is a must imo.
Pretty much my stance is if it's in the API but just lacks a unit frame on the UI itself, I should be able to add that unit frame to my UI via an addon.
Botting and automation of combat events via macro's is a pure extreme that the anti addons crowd tries to paint as the norm and it simply is not the case.
In the last weekend beta i got invited into a pvp group and after a while someone in this group did suddenly post a:
Group Damage Meter
The Group Damage Meter shows for every nickname the total dmage and the % damage of the group.
But if it is really true that the game supports AUTO INTERRUPT BOTS Iam not sure if the pvp is going into a direction I appreciate.
I dont want to have this ingame. No bots or auto-macros...that would destroy the pvp gameplay and leads to very unbalanced gameplay.
Well, apparently, this is exactly what everyone in this thread who is Pro-Add-ons wants.
[mod edit]
Then you are against those ? An auto interrupt, auto exploit weakness is a bot. If you agree with this then you agree with the majority here. If you can or cannot see other stamina/magicka is a bit trickier. If Zen makes that available to everyone in the basic UI fine, but if it's not then it shouldn't be available thru mods.
I would be absolutely against any kind of botting or macro scripts that automate anything.
What I am not against is addons that add a unit frame to my UI to display things like:
Target health
Target stamina
Target cast bar
Players & Target buffs/debuffs
Target of Target
If you let me have visibility of things like health and cast bar at least I can assess whats going on and time my interupts myself, rather than simply guessing and hoping because all of these subtle visual cues and particle effects will be lost in the zerg therefore traditional unit frames on the UI is a must imo.
Pretty much my stance is if it's in the API but just lacks a unit frame on the UI itself, I should be able to add that unit frame to my UI via an addon.
Botting and automation of combat events via macro's is a pure extreme that the anti addons crowd tries to paint as the norm and it simply is not the case.
That's a pretty good advantage having that info over the players using the stock UI.
That makes everyone who doesn't want you to have an advantage over them to have to use the add-on.
This is the info that I hope Zen blocks... so supposedly "elite pvp'rs" can actually be elite and not "elite by using a crutch"
I would be absolutely against any kind of botting or macro scripts that automate anything.
What I am not against is addons that add a unit frame to my UI to display things like:
Target health
Target stamina
Target cast bar
Players & Target buffs/debuffs
Target of Target
If you let me have visibility of things like health and cast bar at least I can assess whats going on and time my interupts myself, rather than simply guessing and hoping because all of these subtle visual cues and particle effects will be lost in the zerg therefore traditional unit frames on the UI is a must imo.
Pretty much my stance is if it's in the API but just lacks a unit frame on the UI itself, I should be able to add that unit frame to my UI via an addon.
Botting and automation of combat events via macro's is a pure extreme that the anti addons crowd tries to paint as the norm and it simply is not the case.
You want perfect control over what is happening and want to see everything your opponent is doing, that is fair. I don't think what you are asking for is overboard, myself I think most of those should be in the basic UI, minus target buff/debuff unless I am the one debuffing em and target cast bar.
To me having too much information is immersion breaking. I like it to be some chaos on the battle field. Sure you might miss a few more interrupt but I think it adds a level of challenge. You have to pay attention to what your opponent is doing, not by watching a bar, but by watching his animation. Makes it a lot more visceral to me.
There are easy ways to fix it for everyone tho, you either have status quo and let the modders go at it fully and give the mod free crowd campaigns for them. Or you restrict what information is given by the API to what is already accessible in the basic UI.
I think it removes the competitiveness from PVP, regardless of whether one person can be bothered to download an add-ons or not, it just adds to many variables to make the playing field in any way level.
Doesn't it make PVP better if you knew you beat some one with the same tools at hand. You might not be used to not knowing all the stats of the other person, but doesn't that lead to a more interesting fight and different strategy's.
Just because your used to the way an interface works in other games doesn't mean that a more minimal approach can't be viable, especially if its the same across the board.
In the last weekend beta i got invited into a pvp group and after a while someone in this group did suddenly post a:
Group Damage Meter
The Group Damage Meter shows for every nickname the total dmage and the % damage of the group.
But if it is really true that the game supports AUTO INTERRUPT BOTS Iam not sure if the pvp is going into a direction I appreciate.
I dont want to have this ingame. No bots or auto-macros...that would destroy the pvp gameplay and leads to very unbalanced gameplay.
Well, apparently, this is exactly what everyone in this thread who is Pro-Add-ons wants.
[mod edit]
Then you are against those ? An auto interrupt, auto exploit weakness is a bot. If you agree with this then you agree with the majority here. If you can or cannot see other stamina/magicka is a bit trickier. If Zen makes that available to everyone in the basic UI fine, but if it's not then it shouldn't be available thru mods.
I would be absolutely against any kind of botting or macro scripts that automate anything.
What I am not against is addons that add a unit frame to my UI to display things like:
Target health
Target stamina
Target cast bar
Players & Target buffs/debuffs
Target of Target
If you let me have visibility of things like health and cast bar at least I can assess whats going on and time my interupts myself, rather than simply guessing and hoping because all of these subtle visual cues and particle effects will be lost in the zerg therefore traditional unit frames on the UI is a must imo.
Pretty much my stance is if it's in the API but just lacks a unit frame on the UI itself, I should be able to add that unit frame to my UI via an addon.
Botting and automation of combat events via macro's is a pure extreme that the anti addons crowd tries to paint as the norm and it simply is not the case.
That's a pretty good advantage having that info over the players using the stock UI.
That makes everyone who doesn't want you to have an advantage over them to have to use the add-on.
This is the info that I hope Zen blocks... so supposedly "elite pvp'rs" can actually be elite and not "elite by using a crutch"
Eh? I am no elite PvPer lol...I barely take it seriously enough to bother with it.
If people are using addons that I am not and that results in a few extra deaths coming my way, so what? It's just a game for goodness sake. I either choose to follow the crowd and use exactly the same addons as them or choose to use my own personal favourite addons with the caveat that I might die more often than others....
Well it's PvP...I have been dying more often than others for about 10 years now lol.
The reason I disagree with you is that everything I listed is not a wanted advantage, it's a fundamental requirement to fight effectively.
If I have an ability ala "execute" that does high damage but is only usable when target is at 30% health or lower, how do I even begin to know when to use it?
If I have a cleanse ability that will remove debuffs or states from my character, how do I even begin to know when to use it?
If I have a dot that stacks to a total of 5....how do I even begin to know when its at full stack or when its not available to use?
If I have an interupt how do I even begin to know when to use it, or if it has been successful with no visibility of cast bars?
If I have a player cast self buff, how do I even begin to know when it needs reapplying?
Trying to keep track of all these things that require split second timing via subtle visual cues and particles will be pointless in the middle of a zerg or frantic PvP fight with 50 people on screen....it doesnt make one skilled its just silly imo.
If you are going to have complex combat mechanics like interupts, buffs, dots, nukes etc etc then you HAVE to give the player the means to interpret and react to those variables whereas the current system appears to rely and guesswork and far more luck than it should do if meaningful, competetive PvP is the desired outcome.
"I really dislike mods"..."but I'll have a disadvantage if I dont use them"....
YOUR decision is then a) use them or b) don't use them, It really is that simple
Your basic assumption - which is wrong - is that add-ons are in game, and that it is what it is and nothing can be done about that.
My assumption - which is correct - is that the developers can chose to remove/limit add-ons, or add them/open the API at will.
So in truth, to satisfy my requirements (A:" I do not want to use add-ons", B:"I want to be competitive") my decisions are in fact (your choices do not satisfy those requirements, I am afraid):
- Get the developers to remove add-ons from the game
- Not play
Since I intend to play (for now) and will be paying my subscription just as much as you, I will keep lobbying to remove add-ons from the game (or limit them to UI fluff).
If this happens (add-ons removed/limited to things that do not affect competition) you will have the (simple) choice to:
- Get the developers to add/unlock more add-ons in the game
- Not play
and here is the proof:
If your assertion that mods force people to use them and remove free will from the player, why is it that the vast majority of people use a handful of their favourite mods but they do not use every single one.
Your so called "proof" is poor because while using 1-10 add-ons can benefit someone, beyond that it becomes counter productive or doesn't bring enough benefit (say 0.0001% benefit after your 11th addon) to be worth the effort as there is redundancy with other add-ons.
Assuming an infinite number of add-ons (probably true for WoW), installing an infinite number of add-ons would not bring enough benefit to your gaming experience to be worth the (infinite) investment. The ROI per add-ons decreases the more of them you have.
"I really dislike mods"..."but I'll have a disadvantage if I dont use them"....
YOUR decision is then a) use them or b) don't use them, It really is that simple
Your basic assumption - which is wrong - is that add-ons are in game, and that it is what it is and nothing can be done about that.
My assumption - which is correct - is that the developers can chose to remove/limit add-ons, or add them/open the API at will.
So in truth, to satisfy my requirements (A:" I do not want to use add-ons", B:"I want to be competitive") my decisions are in fact (your choices do not satisfy those requirements, I am afraid):
- Get the developers to remove add-ons from the game
- Not play
Since I intend to play (for now) and will be paying my subscription just as much as you, I will keep lobbying to remove add-ons from the game (or limit them to UI fluff).
If this happens (add-ons removed/limited to things that do not affect competition) you will have the (simple) choice to:
- Get the developers to add/unlock more add-ons in the game
- Not play
and here is the proof:
If your assertion that mods force people to use them and remove free will from the player, why is it that the vast majority of people use a handful of their favourite mods but they do not use every single one.
Your so called "proof" is poor because while using 1-10 add-ons can benefit someone, beyond that it becomes counter productive or doesn't bring enough benefit (say 0.0001% benefit after your 11th addon) to be worth the effort as there is redundancy with other add-ons.
Assuming an infinite number of add-ons (probably true for WoW), installing an infinite number of add-ons would not bring enough benefit to your gaming experience to be worth the (infinite) investment. The ROI per add-ons decreases the more of them you have.
ZOS have developed the API for the sole reason that they WANT the community to use it and create addons. That is not an assumption. It is a fact.
The game has been designed from day 1 with that commitment in mind.
Will the devs limit or break addons that they deem to be giving too much of an advantage? Of course they will and nobody can have a problem wit that as its not the players remit to decide what is and is not allowed. Its the devs.
Will they remove addons from the game simply because you want them to? Of course they won't, why would they when they have deliberately included addons in their design process and spent so many hours and dollars in order to give us the functionality.
You can petition the devs for the complete removal of addons as much as you want, it won't ever happen because they have spent a lot of time and effort developing the API exactly because they want us players to experiment with it. It's about player choice and allowing us to customise the game in line with our playstyle.
Whilst many opportunities for compromise have been identified, sadly you seem intent on forcing everyone to adopt your preferred playstyle. I personally am glad the devs design goals for the game are the exact opposite
I'm sorry you are not even open to areas of compromise and that you only deal in extremes, but won't lose any sleep over it as the devs hold the opposite opinion to you. They see the value in addon support and committed to providing as much support as they can from day 1.
I hate to say this but the biggest issue even for a basic add-on is the Stamina and Magicka levels. An add-on that shows information that in no way is represented by the stock UI and isn't really represented in a lot of games with PVP. Especially with a game based on limited resources, you now have a huge advantage over a non add on player. They can never know if you have or haven't enough stamina to CC break.. and you ALWAYS know when they can/can't use CC break. You know when they are out of Magicka too, so that becomes a distinct advantage too. Health should be fine, because numerical or bar, it still relay the same information.
I hate to say this but the biggest issue even for a basic add-on is the Stamina and Magicka levels. An add-on that shows information that in no way is represented by the stock UI and isn't really represented in a lot of games with PVP. Especially with a game based on limited resources, you now have a huge advantage over a non add on player. They can never know if you have or haven't enough stamina to CC break.. and you ALWAYS know when they can/can't use CC break. You know when they are out of Magicka too, so that becomes a distinct advantage too. Health should be fine, because numerical or bar, it still relay the same information.
Precisely the reason that ESO is the only themepark mmorpg I know of that doesnt include your targets stamina bar as part of the default UI.
Those of us asking for things like
Target health
Target action/magika
Target cast bar
Player and target buffs
are not asking for things that most other games DONT give you in the sense we want an advantage. We are asking for the things that all other themepark mmorpgs give you as part of the default UI.
Go check a few out, like SWTOR, WoW, GW2, Aion, AoC, Wildstar, Rift, for example and you will see what I mean.
Eh? I am no elite PvPer lol...I barely take it seriously enough to bother with it.
If people are using addons that I am not and that results in a few extra deaths coming my way, so what? It's just a game for goodness sake. I either choose to follow the crowd and use exactly the same addons as them or choose to use my own personal favourite addons with the caveat that I might die more often than others....
Well it's PvP...I have been dying more often than others for about 10 years now lol.
The reason I disagree with you is that everything I listed is not a wanted advantage, it's a fundamental requirement to fight effectively.
If I have an ability ala "execute" that does high damage but is only usable when target is at 30% health or lower, how do I even begin to know when to use it? You can see health in the basic UI, executes are a non-issue.
If I have a cleanse ability that will remove debuffs or states from my character, how do I even begin to know when to use it? I do agree seeing debuffs and buffs on your own character shouldn't be encumbered, at least until the visual cues are more prevalent.
If I have a dot that stacks to a total of 5....how do I even begin to know when its at full stack or when its not available to use? I've been doing this for years without a UI, it's simply being aware in combat. It comes with practice, this is one of the chief reasons I do not use Addon's which automate my situational awareness.
If I have an interupt how do I even begin to know when to use it, or if it has been successful with no visibility of cast bars? There are enough visual cues for most abilities in this game, it's already stupidly easy to dodge/rflect/block most spells and abilities. Practice!
If I have a player cast self buff, how do I even begin to know when it needs reapplying? I again agree, having information that pertains to yourself or only your allies can be left.
Trying to keep track of all these things that require split second timing via subtle visual cues and particles will be pointless in the middle of a zerg or frantic PvP fight with 50 people on screen....it doesnt make one skilled its just silly imo. This ability to track, predict, and time abilities and reactions effectively is what makes PvP interesting and strategic. It absolutely is the definition of a skilled player, it's not as magical as you make it seem... it just requires practice and not using addon's which automate the process for you.
If you are going to have complex combat mechanics like interupts, buffs, dots, nukes etc etc then you HAVE to give the player the means to interpret and react to those variables whereas the current system appears to rely and guesswork and far more luck than it should do if meaningful, competetive PvP is the desired outcome.
I understand why people want these addon's, I just don't agree with them. Everything these addons do for you can be done with enough practice. Enjoy the game as it is, I hope Zeni continues to separate the divide between "skilled pvpers" and those who use assistance addons.
* Also keep in mind my idea of a skilled pvper might be different than yours, reading popup's and sheets of information on your opponent and making the correct call might be your idea of PvP. Using instinct and situational awareness unassisted is mine. We are all entitled to our own ideas, ultimately one of these ideas will be set as the "standard" for Eso.
Eh? I am no elite PvPer lol...I barely take it seriously enough to bother with it.
If people are using addons that I am not and that results in a few extra deaths coming my way, so what? It's just a game for goodness sake. I either choose to follow the crowd and use exactly the same addons as them or choose to use my own personal favourite addons with the caveat that I might die more often than others....
Well it's PvP...I have been dying more often than others for about 10 years now lol.
The reason I disagree with you is that everything I listed is not a wanted advantage, it's a fundamental requirement to fight effectively.
If I have an ability ala "execute" that does high damage but is only usable when target is at 30% health or lower, how do I even begin to know when to use it? You can see health in the basic UI, executes are a non-issue.
If I have a cleanse ability that will remove debuffs or states from my character, how do I even begin to know when to use it? I do agree seeing debuffs and buffs on your own character shouldn't be encumbered, at least until the visual cues are more prevalent.
If I have a dot that stacks to a total of 5....how do I even begin to know when its at full stack or when its not available to use? I've been doing this for years without a UI, it's simply being aware in combat. It comes with practice, this is one of the chief reasons I do not use Addon's which automate my situational awareness.
If I have an interupt how do I even begin to know when to use it, or if it has been successful with no visibility of cast bars? There are enough visual cues for most abilities in this game, it's already stupidly easy to dodge/rflect/block most spells and abilities. Practice!
If I have a player cast self buff, how do I even begin to know when it needs reapplying? I again agree, having information that pertains to yourself or only your allies can be left.
Trying to keep track of all these things that require split second timing via subtle visual cues and particles will be pointless in the middle of a zerg or frantic PvP fight with 50 people on screen....it doesnt make one skilled its just silly imo. This ability to track, predict, and time abilities and reactions effectively is what makes PvP interesting and strategic. It absolutely is the definition of a skilled player, it's not as magical as you make it seem... it just requires practice and not using addon's which automate the process for you.
If you are going to have complex combat mechanics like interupts, buffs, dots, nukes etc etc then you HAVE to give the player the means to interpret and react to those variables whereas the current system appears to rely and guesswork and far more luck than it should do if meaningful, competetive PvP is the desired outcome.
I understand why people want these addon's, I just don't agree with them. Everything these addons do for you can be done with enough practice. Enjoy the game as it is, I hope Zeni continues to separate the divide between "skilled pvpers" and those who use assistance addons.
* Also keep in mind my idea of a skilled pvper might be different than yours, reading popup's and sheets of information on your opponent and making the correct call might be your idea of PvP. Using instinct and situational awareness unassisted is mine. We are all entitled to our own ideas, ultimately one of these ideas will be set as the "standard" for Eso.
Exactly...almost all of these things are down to personal preference and Zeni are simply trying to provide as many different options to the playerbase as possible.
We all do what we do, we all have our unique little foibles and we all have subtly different playing styles. For example, I would not use any type of addon that actually reacts and fires off my abilities for me.
However the key thing is, I dont judge those that do. I expect a few extra deaths over those that are using these types of addon. If I die a few extra times at the hands of people using these types of addon what I do not do is come to the forums crying that somebody is FORCING me to do something against my will. FORCING me to use the same addons as those people. It's simply not true.
Now, if I eventually get bored of incurring those extra few deaths and decide to use those same addons myself, that again is a choice born of free will. Either way it will be a choice that I make and not one that is forced upon me.
This is a computer game after all and not a human rights crisis...
I hate to say this but the biggest issue even for a basic add-on is the Stamina and Magicka levels. An add-on that shows information that in no way is represented by the stock UI and isn't really represented in a lot of games with PVP. Especially with a game based on limited resources, you now have a huge advantage over a non add on player. They can never know if you have or haven't enough stamina to CC break.. and you ALWAYS know when they can/can't use CC break. You know when they are out of Magicka too, so that becomes a distinct advantage too. Health should be fine, because numerical or bar, it still relay the same information.
Precisely the reason that ESO is the only themepark mmorpg I know of that doesnt include your targets stamina bar as part of the default UI.
Those of us asking for things like
Target health
Target action/magika
Target cast bar
Player and target buffs
are not asking for things that most other games DONT give you in the sense we want an advantage. We are asking for the things that all other themepark mmorpgs give you as part of the default UI.
Go check a few out, like SWTOR, WoW, GW2, Aion, AoC, Wildstar, Rift, for example and you will see what I mean.
Some of those games don't even have a Mana pool/stamina pool they only rely on cooldown timers only which you cannot see the current action on, it's like you just whipped up a bunch of random MMOs without knowing what you are talking about. Good job. Several of those you can only see HP bars. If you doubt me you can google PVP for each game and figure out where you went horribly wrong.
I do think that if you want to see enemy stamina & magika levels then the best way to go about it would be to argue for it to be included in the base ui.
How many MMORPG's show you your opponents skill icons so that you can see what their cooldowns are doing ?
Because that's basically what you see when looking at someone's Stamina and Magika bars in ESO.
Wildstar, Rift, TSW, FFXIV, SWTOR... to name a few recent ones where i could see debuffs and buffs when i had them highlighted... except some of these would actually show you how much time was left on each one as well... some even show you the ability name and what they were casting when they were casting so you could interrupt it.
Comments
You're trying to refute the wrong arguments. I clearly stated a list of items for you to refute. You have failed to do this.
If the person wants to compete - they don't have a choice. If they don't use the add-ons... they're going to lose. It's that simple.
This is what you're arguing:
Someone who wants to be highly competitive in a game where everyone else who is highly competitive uses add-ons which grant them advantages in combat is going to somehow make the choice to not use these add-ons...
...
This is beyond dumb. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time responding to this non-sense.
Well, apparently, this is exactly what everyone in this thread who is Pro-Add-ons wants.
Whilst your link is an example of a mod that even I consider a step too far....it is also irrelevant to the point in discussion.
It IS an ACTIVE decision to use mods for PvP.
Does the game prevent you from PvPing without mods? No.
Will you have an advantage via the use of some mods? Yes.
Does the game make the decision as to whether YOU choose to use mods? No.
Do other players make the decision as to whether YOU choose to use mods? No.
Do YOU make the decision as to whether YOU choose to use mods? Yes.
THAT is an active decision on your part. Yes, it IS. Now, you may well not be as effective in combat as someone who is using mods, that is a fact. So when making YOUR decision as to whether to use mods or not, you weigh up the consequences....
"I really dislike mods"..."but I'll have a disadvantage if I dont use them"....
YOUR decision is then a) use them or b) don't use them, It really is that simple and here is the proof:
If your assertion that mods force people to use them and remove free will from the player, why is it that the vast majority of people use a handful of their favourite mods but they do not use every single one.
There were about 1,000 different mods available for WAR...if your claim was true every single player would be using every single mod. Every, Single, One. Because they were forced to.....
How many players in WAR do you think used all 1,000 available mods because they were forced to?
If you feel so strongly that addons are wrong, you will choose not to use them and just suck up the few extra deaths here and there.
If you feel so strongly that addons are vital you will choose to use them and score a few extra kills because of it.
The game does not prevent you from PvPing without mods. It's down to personal preference.
Your arguement that other people using them removes your free will is so overly dramatic it's nonsense.
Noone has removed your free will to do or not do anything. You gather the available info, weigh up the pros and cons and then make a decision which you feel best suits YOU.
If I buy the game, I may use a few addons but I will not use all of them and do you know why that is? Because NO ONE IS FORCING ME TO......
As previous posters have stated, the allowance and use of custom add-ons is going to create a huge disparity in PvP and PvE capabilities among the game's population. While perfect balance is impossible, it should be for the most part strived for especially in a competitive setting like Cyrodil PvP. This feature will only push it into further imbalance. Games need rules and restrictions to function well.
Even with that being said I am not completely against add-ons, but there needs to be some sort of regulations to prevent people from just putting anything in the game that they want or this will turn into a huge mess.
Also to restate what an earlier poster said in so many words: why do you want to turn ESO into WoW. Its minimal UI is one of its distinguishing features. Arguably it lacks some "basic" features, but that should be edited by Zenimax themselves. It does not mean we need custom add-ons available so people can transform the game into something not even resembling its former self and vision. If you get anxious playing a game when you can actually see your character and happenings in the world and its not plastered over with tons of meters and charts, there are plenty of other previously released and populated mmos that will provide this for you. We really do not need another....
MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2
Playing:None
Waiting For: Wildstar, The Repopulation, Archeage, TESO, Warhammer 40K:EC, EQN
Taken from another thread and this sounds promising:
We reached out to Zenimax Online Studios for comment on this issue and this is what they had to say:
As we get closer to launch, our beta events have continued to grow in player-size, and that growth has resulted in even more and more of you taking the time to experiment with our UI modding tools. It’s exciting to see the amazing add-ons you have come up with and for us, as developers, it’s also a very important part of the beta process. Seeing what the community wants to add or change is helpful as we continue to tweak and balance the game – what are people looking for? what works? what doesn’t? Finding the right answers to these questions often means leaving the API very open during this beta phase. It helps us see where limits may or may not be and helps us determine what makes the best possible ESO experience for everyone.
We welcome creativity and have built ESO on player-choice, but as a game played with thousands of others, we also must be mindful of any mods that give clear mechanical advantages in competitive situations. Maintaining a level playing field will always be our first priority. Our intent with add-ons is to encourage you to modify your UI in a way that is more fitting for your personal play-style, but not ones that could allow you to make choices for others. We do not want those who aren’t interested in using an add-on to feel compelled to do so because they cannot remain competitive without them. As we continue beta testing, we’ll continue to evaluate add-ons and the implications they have on other players, but you can expect changes to the API before launch and will share that information as it becomes available. Thank you to all of you that have created add-ons during this time – we appreciate your help in making ESO the best it can be.
Was just about to post this. It's from the interview mmorpg did.
Anyways anyone here arguing for the auto interrupts are frigin idiots. I don't want to play a game where ANY time I start to cast something longer than .2s I get interrupted. If people are interrupting me because they see the animation and realize what I'm casting then I'm completely fine with it, but using a bot? No thanks.
To understand it, you first have to get into the mindset of the players who support macro's and bots.
They are terrible gamers.
They aren't very good, which there is nothing wrong with, but their ego doesn't permit it. So they find ways to bolster their lack of skill by using 3rd party software. There is nothing new about this, cheater's mentality.
O_o o_O
Then you are against those ? An auto interrupt, auto exploit weakness is a bot. If you agree with this then you agree with the majority here. If you can or cannot see other stamina/magicka is a bit trickier. If Zen makes that available to everyone in the basic UI fine, but if it's not then it shouldn't be available thru mods.
I would be absolutely against any kind of botting or macro scripts that automate anything.
What I am not against is addons that add a unit frame to my UI to display things like:
Target health
Target stamina
Target cast bar
Players & Target buffs/debuffs
Target of Target
If you let me have visibility of things like health and cast bar at least I can assess whats going on and time my interupts myself, rather than simply guessing and hoping because all of these subtle visual cues and particle effects will be lost in the zerg therefore traditional unit frames on the UI is a must imo.
Pretty much my stance is if it's in the API but just lacks a unit frame on the UI itself, I should be able to add that unit frame to my UI via an addon.
Botting and automation of combat events via macro's is a pure extreme that the anti addons crowd tries to paint as the norm and it simply is not the case.
That's a pretty good advantage having that info over the players using the stock UI.
That makes everyone who doesn't want you to have an advantage over them to have to use the add-on.
This is the info that I hope Zen blocks... so supposedly "elite pvp'rs" can actually be elite and not "elite by using a crutch"
Palazious <The Vindicators> Darkfall
Palazious r40, rr45 SW War
Palazious 50 Pirate PoTBS
Palazious 35 Sorcerer Vanguard
Palazious 75 wizard EQ
Paladori 50 Champion LOTRO
Poppa Reaver bugged at rank15
You want perfect control over what is happening and want to see everything your opponent is doing, that is fair. I don't think what you are asking for is overboard, myself I think most of those should be in the basic UI, minus target buff/debuff unless I am the one debuffing em and target cast bar.
To me having too much information is immersion breaking. I like it to be some chaos on the battle field. Sure you might miss a few more interrupt but I think it adds a level of challenge. You have to pay attention to what your opponent is doing, not by watching a bar, but by watching his animation. Makes it a lot more visceral to me.
There are easy ways to fix it for everyone tho, you either have status quo and let the modders go at it fully and give the mod free crowd campaigns for them. Or you restrict what information is given by the API to what is already accessible in the basic UI.
I think it removes the competitiveness from PVP, regardless of whether one person can be bothered to download an add-ons or not, it just adds to many variables to make the playing field in any way level.
Doesn't it make PVP better if you knew you beat some one with the same tools at hand. You might not be used to not knowing all the stats of the other person, but doesn't that lead to a more interesting fight and different strategy's.
Just because your used to the way an interface works in other games doesn't mean that a more minimal approach can't be viable, especially if its the same across the board.
Eh? I am no elite PvPer lol...I barely take it seriously enough to bother with it.
If people are using addons that I am not and that results in a few extra deaths coming my way, so what? It's just a game for goodness sake. I either choose to follow the crowd and use exactly the same addons as them or choose to use my own personal favourite addons with the caveat that I might die more often than others....
Well it's PvP...I have been dying more often than others for about 10 years now lol.
The reason I disagree with you is that everything I listed is not a wanted advantage, it's a fundamental requirement to fight effectively.
If I have an ability ala "execute" that does high damage but is only usable when target is at 30% health or lower, how do I even begin to know when to use it?
If I have a cleanse ability that will remove debuffs or states from my character, how do I even begin to know when to use it?
If I have a dot that stacks to a total of 5....how do I even begin to know when its at full stack or when its not available to use?
If I have an interupt how do I even begin to know when to use it, or if it has been successful with no visibility of cast bars?
If I have a player cast self buff, how do I even begin to know when it needs reapplying?
Trying to keep track of all these things that require split second timing via subtle visual cues and particles will be pointless in the middle of a zerg or frantic PvP fight with 50 people on screen....it doesnt make one skilled its just silly imo.
If you are going to have complex combat mechanics like interupts, buffs, dots, nukes etc etc then you HAVE to give the player the means to interpret and react to those variables whereas the current system appears to rely and guesswork and far more luck than it should do if meaningful, competetive PvP is the desired outcome.
Your basic assumption - which is wrong - is that add-ons are in game, and that it is what it is and nothing can be done about that.
My assumption - which is correct - is that the developers can chose to remove/limit add-ons, or add them/open the API at will.
So in truth, to satisfy my requirements (A:" I do not want to use add-ons", B:"I want to be competitive") my decisions are in fact (your choices do not satisfy those requirements, I am afraid):
- Get the developers to remove add-ons from the game
- Not play
Since I intend to play (for now) and will be paying my subscription just as much as you, I will keep lobbying to remove add-ons from the game (or limit them to UI fluff).
If this happens (add-ons removed/limited to things that do not affect competition) you will have the (simple) choice to:
- Get the developers to add/unlock more add-ons in the game
- Not play
Your so called "proof" is poor because while using 1-10 add-ons can benefit someone, beyond that it becomes counter productive or doesn't bring enough benefit (say 0.0001% benefit after your 11th addon) to be worth the effort as there is redundancy with other add-ons.
Assuming an infinite number of add-ons (probably true for WoW), installing an infinite number of add-ons would not bring enough benefit to your gaming experience to be worth the (infinite) investment. The ROI per add-ons decreases the more of them you have.
ZOS have developed the API for the sole reason that they WANT the community to use it and create addons. That is not an assumption. It is a fact.
The game has been designed from day 1 with that commitment in mind.
Will the devs limit or break addons that they deem to be giving too much of an advantage? Of course they will and nobody can have a problem wit that as its not the players remit to decide what is and is not allowed. Its the devs.
Will they remove addons from the game simply because you want them to? Of course they won't, why would they when they have deliberately included addons in their design process and spent so many hours and dollars in order to give us the functionality.
You can petition the devs for the complete removal of addons as much as you want, it won't ever happen because they have spent a lot of time and effort developing the API exactly because they want us players to experiment with it. It's about player choice and allowing us to customise the game in line with our playstyle.
Whilst many opportunities for compromise have been identified, sadly you seem intent on forcing everyone to adopt your preferred playstyle. I personally am glad the devs design goals for the game are the exact opposite
I'm sorry you are not even open to areas of compromise and that you only deal in extremes, but won't lose any sleep over it as the devs hold the opposite opinion to you. They see the value in addon support and committed to providing as much support as they can from day 1.
I hate to say this but the biggest issue even for a basic add-on is the Stamina and Magicka levels. An add-on that shows information that in no way is represented by the stock UI and isn't really represented in a lot of games with PVP. Especially with a game based on limited resources, you now have a huge advantage over a non add on player. They can never know if you have or haven't enough stamina to CC break.. and you ALWAYS know when they can/can't use CC break. You know when they are out of Magicka too, so that becomes a distinct advantage too. Health should be fine, because numerical or bar, it still relay the same information.
Precisely the reason that ESO is the only themepark mmorpg I know of that doesnt include your targets stamina bar as part of the default UI.
Those of us asking for things like
Target health
Target action/magika
Target cast bar
Player and target buffs
are not asking for things that most other games DONT give you in the sense we want an advantage. We are asking for the things that all other themepark mmorpgs give you as part of the default UI.
Go check a few out, like SWTOR, WoW, GW2, Aion, AoC, Wildstar, Rift, for example and you will see what I mean.
I understand why people want these addon's, I just don't agree with them. Everything these addons do for you can be done with enough practice. Enjoy the game as it is, I hope Zeni continues to separate the divide between "skilled pvpers" and those who use assistance addons.
* Also keep in mind my idea of a skilled pvper might be different than yours, reading popup's and sheets of information on your opponent and making the correct call might be your idea of PvP. Using instinct and situational awareness unassisted is mine. We are all entitled to our own ideas, ultimately one of these ideas will be set as the "standard" for Eso.
Exactly...almost all of these things are down to personal preference and Zeni are simply trying to provide as many different options to the playerbase as possible.
We all do what we do, we all have our unique little foibles and we all have subtly different playing styles. For example, I would not use any type of addon that actually reacts and fires off my abilities for me.
However the key thing is, I dont judge those that do. I expect a few extra deaths over those that are using these types of addon. If I die a few extra times at the hands of people using these types of addon what I do not do is come to the forums crying that somebody is FORCING me to do something against my will. FORCING me to use the same addons as those people. It's simply not true.
Now, if I eventually get bored of incurring those extra few deaths and decide to use those same addons myself, that again is a choice born of free will. Either way it will be a choice that I make and not one that is forced upon me.
This is a computer game after all and not a human rights crisis...
Some of those games don't even have a Mana pool/stamina pool they only rely on cooldown timers only which you cannot see the current action on, it's like you just whipped up a bunch of random MMOs without knowing what you are talking about. Good job. Several of those you can only see HP bars. If you doubt me you can google PVP for each game and figure out where you went horribly wrong.
I do think that if you want to see enemy stamina & magika levels then the best way to go about it would be to argue for it to be included in the base ui.
Then it would be even playing field for everyone.
No crutch needed
Palazious <The Vindicators> Darkfall
Palazious r40, rr45 SW War
Palazious 50 Pirate PoTBS
Palazious 35 Sorcerer Vanguard
Palazious 75 wizard EQ
Paladori 50 Champion LOTRO
Poppa Reaver bugged at rank15
How many MMORPG's show you your opponents skill icons so that you can see what their cooldowns are doing ?
Because that's basically what you see when looking at someone's Stamina and Magika bars in ESO.
Wildstar, Rift, TSW, FFXIV, SWTOR... to name a few recent ones where i could see debuffs and buffs when i had them highlighted... except some of these would actually show you how much time was left on each one as well... some even show you the ability name and what they were casting when they were casting so you could interrupt it.