The problem is not with the mechanics the issue is with the implementation these dungeons need to be 20 to 30 times bigger with multiple bosses and actually mazes not just a circle you run round in killing everything that moves.
I would also like to see some meaningful drops not just another item to be broken down for parts.
Good responses guys. As usual on this site you get some of the most split sidings. I'm shocked to see how many of you aren't annoyed or bothered by the "public" aspect. I see so many (including myself) complaining in game that I thought for sure we'd all be on the same side.
I do have to agree with the person who said that main stories should also be public then. For whatever bright reason ESO made it so the public solo dungeons are snorefest easy yet are the public instances... then you have the main quests which some of them feel as though they're made for several people.
People complain, bitterly, about the main quest and guild quests being solo and too hard. They complain about the group dungeons being too hard. They also complain about the delves being too crowded and easy. I suspect that there is no design decision that a MMO could make that wouldn't have people upset with it.
The delves now are different than the ones at release, which I agree were crowded and had little challenge and crowded bosses. (In fairness, they're not really the focus of the game and serve largely for achievements and skyshards.) With the changes to the looting rules I now typically see only a handful of players at the end (who don't stick around.) And I've hit a few where I was the first person in a new shard and got to clear them - they're actually quite challenging true solo, although the boss at the end isn't actually much more difficult than the trash on the way.
On your main point, I think there are both pros and cons. The con is inconsistent difficulty. The pro, which I find enormous, is that they give strong incentives for truly social game play. If you hit an overworld boss you will fail by yourself. People chip in and help each other all the time, even without a formal group, and this culture exists because of the public nature of what you're doing. If they did instancing the game really would feel like it was single player, with other people being visible to you only in towns and endgame. It's interesting how rigidly MMO players have come to define social gaming as solely being a thing that you do in instances.
Originally posted by evilized this thread is proof that MMO's are, and have been, heading in the wrong direction for nearly a decade. instancing needs to go away.
?
This thread is about the problems arising from (ESO's implementation of) what there was before instancing.
I agree with the OP. For a company that uses "immersion" as an excuse for almost everything, I can't think of anything less immersive than the public dungeons. I could understand if they were trying for seamless world with no loading screens where you just walk right in but that's not the case. You still "zone" into a different area. I went skyshard hunting the other day for crafting skill points and was surprised exactly how far I was able to get because there was virtually no risk involved. The only reason I stopped is I quite literally got bored.
public everything completely ruins the game for me and is going to be the reason i don't play the game much longer. It's annoying to enter the small dungeons and there's not one creature alive. I just run through the dungeon and get the skyshard and leave. How is that remotely fun?
That said I only found the problem with the solo public delves / dungeons being the boss HP not scaling to the amount of players that are near when he spawns. I would prefer this solution over the others as I had enjoyed farming bosses as a break from questing.
In my experience this has only been a problem at lower levels . When you're at VR most public dungeons are empty or have just a couple people in them. And you actually wish there were more people when taking on VR elites.
the complaint is aimed towards how the "quests" are told to you, for example "let's enter the dwemer ruins that has not been entered in ages or someones Dream that has to be entered in by very special means, and yet you see 10 other players doing the same thing as you and kills the boss for you etc etc,
If Zenimax really thought this true , atleast they should boost the enemies so they last longer based on how many players there are, right now it.s the same solo boss regardless of number of players.
I agree with you.
Quests don't "feel right" when you are hiding behind some crates to spy on someone and 3 other people are actually "on top of you" doing the same thing.
Quests don't feel right when you are sneaking into a house to steal something back and 10 other people are doing the same thing.
And as I've said, they don't feel right when I arrive just as a boss goes down and I get credit. Then I wait around until the respawn so I can actually "do" something and not feel like a "schlub".
Thark's and yours are some really good points.
It kinda shows a schizm between game and quest design. Back in the days of public everything, games and their quests rarely went for that "YOU are the one person who can handle this problem!" kind of quest dialogue. You look at SWG, you could pick up missions from terminals that were simple every day hero quests; "Wipe out this Quenker nest." "Courier this crap to X on your map", etc. And even quests from Luke or other SW characters were largely about you being a soldier in a far larger story than your own.
And the open world design worked well with that. Seeing other players running around the Tusken Raider lair made perfect sense: You were but a soldier/adventurer in a much larger world. There was no reason for those other players not to be there.
But here, quest dialogue establishes you as "the one", or at very least offering a pretense that you are being given a unique opportunity, all while dropping you into an environment crawling with "the one's", summoned to this place by the unique and sacred hubcap from the World Wheel of Life, that can only be forged under a moon that has only come but 3 times in recorded history...
There is room for both of these concepts in one game, IMO, but the quest should fit the situation. a public dungeon should have little more in the way of quest dialog than, "Hey, there's some crap going on down there. You should check it out.", while private dungeons should have more of the "we need the best of the best!" kinda dialogue. Most games I've played seem to get that, maybe not so much on OW quests, but certainly on dungeons.
i don't get it why are ppl still defending this game? it is kinda obvious that if has failed because of many things, just read the forums players that play the game and exp problems with it. There won;t be a change now, in the coming months maybe as they already said that in there " to do list" will be implemented in the coming months and next year.
I already left the game and for those that stay, GL and keep paying sub for this. U guys just deserve it to play such a great designed game.
Personally, I like it. It feels like a real world. If you saw someone fighting with a giant spider by himself in real life, wouldn't you jump in and help him slay the beast? It adds a feel of realism and camaraderie to the world that is hard to find in other games. I can definitely see why some people wouldn't enjoy it though, especially with a mass of people flooding every area at launch.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
So the game is both, too much single player and not enough single player?
They can't win can they?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
In my experience this has only been a problem at lower levels . When you're at VR most public dungeons are empty or have just a couple people in them. And you actually wish there were more people when taking on VR elites.
This even happens in the lower level public dungeons. I was doing the level 36 DC public dungeon on my alt last night. Just going through trying to solo and eventually I had a healer and dps following me. "Well I guess I'm tanking now". Luckily, they showed up before I got to the first little CC immune mini boss that would have stomped the crap outta me. And there were multiple paths and we grouped up with three people coming the other way and cleared the rest of the dungeon.
I'm a huge fan of open/public everything. I don't like instances in any shape or form. That said, I do think that game companies need to take into consideration player population within a certain area when creating a game. Either have enough landmass to support the number of players they want or go back to old school server sizes. IIRC EQ1 was ~1500 players per server? Not to mention they had many starting areas and what felt like TONS of areas for everyone to explore. Man I wish I could play that again, it' just too old sadly.
So the game is both, too much single player and not enough single player?
They can't win can they?
That's exactly right. Too much stuff that only requires one player to complete and not enough stuff that requires more than one. Look, EQ did it right. Any number of people could enter dungeons at one time but you had to be an idiot to try and do any of them alone. You'd step in the door and announce yourself as looking for a group and sooner or later (usually sooner) you'd get one, carve out a spot for yourselves and begin clearing your way deeper into the dungeon. Some groups could get further than others. It was strategic. You had numerous roles from tank to healer to buffer to crowd control to puller. The better each person was at their role the deeper you could get. The roles were hard, everyone knew that so they appreciated someone who was good and forgave those who were learning. What we have in ESO is just plain everyone wins, get to the end fast, no risk rubbish. Its sad that it took a whole team of developers and millions upon millions of dollars to come up with this complete and utter crap.
Originally posted by Kilrain I'm a huge fan of open/public everything. I don't like instances in any shape or form. That said, I do think that game companies need to take into consideration player population within a certain area when creating a game. Either have enough landmass to support the number of players they want or go back to old school server sizes. IIRC EQ1 was ~1500 players per server? Not to mention they had many starting areas and what felt like TONS of areas for everyone to explore. Man I wish I could play that again, it' just too old sadly.
Agree
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1 Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
Comments
The problem is not with the mechanics the issue is with the implementation these dungeons need to be 20 to 30 times bigger with multiple bosses and actually mazes not just a circle you run round in killing everything that moves.
I would also like to see some meaningful drops not just another item to be broken down for parts.
People complain, bitterly, about the main quest and guild quests being solo and too hard. They complain about the group dungeons being too hard. They also complain about the delves being too crowded and easy. I suspect that there is no design decision that a MMO could make that wouldn't have people upset with it.
The delves now are different than the ones at release, which I agree were crowded and had little challenge and crowded bosses. (In fairness, they're not really the focus of the game and serve largely for achievements and skyshards.) With the changes to the looting rules I now typically see only a handful of players at the end (who don't stick around.) And I've hit a few where I was the first person in a new shard and got to clear them - they're actually quite challenging true solo, although the boss at the end isn't actually much more difficult than the trash on the way.
On your main point, I think there are both pros and cons. The con is inconsistent difficulty. The pro, which I find enormous, is that they give strong incentives for truly social game play. If you hit an overworld boss you will fail by yourself. People chip in and help each other all the time, even without a formal group, and this culture exists because of the public nature of what you're doing. If they did instancing the game really would feel like it was single player, with other people being visible to you only in towns and endgame. It's interesting how rigidly MMO players have come to define social gaming as solely being a thing that you do in instances.
?
This thread is about the problems arising from (ESO's implementation of) what there was before instancing.
Darn other people in MY mmorpg.
I kid, I kid.. Mostly.
I love the public delves and dungeons.
That said I only found the problem with the solo public delves / dungeons being the boss HP not scaling to the amount of players that are near when he spawns. I would prefer this solution over the others as I had enjoyed farming bosses as a break from questing.
In my experience this has only been a problem at lower levels . When you're at VR most public dungeons are empty or have just a couple people in them. And you actually wish there were more people when taking on VR elites.
Thark's and yours are some really good points.
It kinda shows a schizm between game and quest design. Back in the days of public everything, games and their quests rarely went for that "YOU are the one person who can handle this problem!" kind of quest dialogue. You look at SWG, you could pick up missions from terminals that were simple every day hero quests; "Wipe out this Quenker nest." "Courier this crap to X on your map", etc. And even quests from Luke or other SW characters were largely about you being a soldier in a far larger story than your own.
And the open world design worked well with that. Seeing other players running around the Tusken Raider lair made perfect sense: You were but a soldier/adventurer in a much larger world. There was no reason for those other players not to be there.
But here, quest dialogue establishes you as "the one", or at very least offering a pretense that you are being given a unique opportunity, all while dropping you into an environment crawling with "the one's", summoned to this place by the unique and sacred hubcap from the World Wheel of Life, that can only be forged under a moon that has only come but 3 times in recorded history...
There is room for both of these concepts in one game, IMO, but the quest should fit the situation. a public dungeon should have little more in the way of quest dialog than, "Hey, there's some crap going on down there. You should check it out.", while private dungeons should have more of the "we need the best of the best!" kinda dialogue. Most games I've played seem to get that, maybe not so much on OW quests, but certainly on dungeons.^^^this , 100 times.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
So the game is both, too much single player and not enough single player?
They can't win can they?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
This even happens in the lower level public dungeons. I was doing the level 36 DC public dungeon on my alt last night. Just going through trying to solo and eventually I had a healer and dps following me. "Well I guess I'm tanking now". Luckily, they showed up before I got to the first little CC immune mini boss that would have stomped the crap outta me. And there were multiple paths and we grouped up with three people coming the other way and cleared the rest of the dungeon.
That's exactly right. Too much stuff that only requires one player to complete and not enough stuff that requires more than one. Look, EQ did it right. Any number of people could enter dungeons at one time but you had to be an idiot to try and do any of them alone. You'd step in the door and announce yourself as looking for a group and sooner or later (usually sooner) you'd get one, carve out a spot for yourselves and begin clearing your way deeper into the dungeon. Some groups could get further than others. It was strategic. You had numerous roles from tank to healer to buffer to crowd control to puller. The better each person was at their role the deeper you could get. The roles were hard, everyone knew that so they appreciated someone who was good and forgave those who were learning. What we have in ESO is just plain everyone wins, get to the end fast, no risk rubbish. Its sad that it took a whole team of developers and millions upon millions of dollars to come up with this complete and utter crap.
I like it.
Actually the game in slowly turning for me, its getting better and better. Im beginning to like this game a lot.
----
----
Agree
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1
Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2