Beyond writing and lore cohesion with the virtual world they are all basically the same, if people don't enjoy these aspects they are going to hate levelling in general - no amount of great writing will fix that (they click past quest text!)
Well there's also pacing, forms of activity, how implementation is handled (IE quest hubs or promotes exploration) etc...
Pacing = story + exploration and promotion of exploring is what I meant by cohesion with the virtual world (which Wildstar does well by most accounts) Re forms of activity, ofc you need good variety but at the end of the day, if you don't care about the story, alternating between bombing runs in a 'vehicle' or gathering or killing or exploring etc etc is not going to make the experience wonderful, its the story & pacing of exploration within a cohesive virtual world that ultimately engages.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by DMKanoIf you are not having fun within 20 minutes of logging in - either the game is not for you or the game designers have failed.
Thats not instant gratification enough!You should be having fun in an MMO 20 minutes BEFORE you ever log into the game.I mean, seriously, are people judging MMOs based on the first 20 minutes now? Pathetic.
Seriously its game design 101 - 20 min is what you have to gain a customer in a MMO.
If fun doesn't happen within 20min for an average gamer they move on.
all i will say is AoC. nuff said
Well I wish the genre would stop making games for people who need to be having fun from the first 20 minutes.
I still do not get your stance here, you really think games should only be about accomplishment? As that's been your only real reasoning behind slogging through stuff you might not enjoy.
No what I'm saying is "fun" doesn't just mean shallow, casual, no time-investment needed fun. Some people have fun with deeper games. Some of my favorite games are games that I was absolutely NOT hooked on in the first 20 minutes.
I still do not get your stance here, you really think games should only be about accomplishment? As that's been your only real reasoning behind slogging through stuff you might not enjoy.
No what I'm saying is "fun" doesn't just mean shallow, casual, no time-investment needed fun. Some people have fun with deeper games. Some of my favorite games are games that I was absolutely NOT hooked on in the first 20 minutes.
I'm more or less the same way, I really don't pick up many titles due to having such taste. Take games like the X series, what I find fun and engaging is how deep they are, how many options/choices are at my disposal. The feeling of what to do, where to go, etc.. generates a want to explore and find out. Seeing an awesome looking ship fly by makes me want to find out how to build said ship. The experience is enthralling, I'm engaged. Even if I'm lost and don't know what to do. This is part of what creates the fun, the mystery of it all.
I think that's one of the problems for many in the MMO genre today, knowing exactly what to do from the word go, there's nothing to really discover any longer. I'm not going to make a judgement on WS I don't do so without playing said game. YEt everything I read about it says, I'll know what to do from the start, as they've made strides to use those tropes many of us have seen over and over even if refined, it's the same. Many of us out there now, don't really care enough about those later accomplishments to play through what we know to expect yet again.
I mean don't get me wrong I can still find fun in a themepark MMO, but that usually rests solely on the story and questing aspects. It's the rest of the game that tends to be a problem. I don't play RPG's to attend pinata parties .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I still do not get your stance here, you really think games should only be about accomplishment? As that's been your only real reasoning behind slogging through stuff you might not enjoy.
No what I'm saying is "fun" doesn't just mean shallow, casual, no time-investment needed fun. Some people have fun with deeper games. Some of my favorite games are games that I was absolutely NOT hooked on in the first 20 minutes.
RPG's to attend pinata parties .
lol
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
If you are not having fun within 20 minutes of logging in - either the game is not for you or the game designers have failed.
Ugh this mentality is so what's wrong with games right now.
Have you ever even spoken to a game designer in your life for 30 seconds?
Have you ever done any research on game design?
The fact that you have a very short amount of time to "grab" attention of a new player trying your game is REALITY.
Most games try to hook you with character creation - which most people don't even count as part of the game experience - it is - a very important part because giving players the feeling of creating a unique character creates the initial "hook" and ultimately better retention.
Do you think game designers are putting in customized character creation "for fun" - it's there to hook the player, otherwise they'd never bother with it.
Remember the clock on starting to hook a player begins as soon as player hits that Login button.
I might have been naieve to asume that anyone even none-mmorpg player understand a game with the RPG tag on it is a game where progression regardless if one takes it slow or rush thru it. So with RPG's the fun start when you grasp the mechanics, get fully immersed with it's game story, it's community and what nots. This could be right away but it also could take time. But then again I was wrong people don't really want a RPG game or MMORPG they just want a online game.
Originally posted by Bladestrom This is the thing, wildstar is clearly polished and rich with content so it comes down to taste, but what we have is endless I played a game for 10 hours etc and it's rubbish. we have people who hate questing but think somehow magically questing will be amazingly different - it won't, if you hate questing ans lore you will hate every mmorg themepark and yet they are aghast with horror at the levelling in wildstar. I mean why buy a game of you don't like the genre?!
Dude, questing in WS is worst in 10+ years. I dont even call it questing, we used to make jokes about that kind of thing 10 years ago.
I honestly don't find the questing all that bad. It's just your standard MMO questing. I suppose everything up to the lategame/group content is just your standard MMO stuff. They do add their own touch to it, mostly the humor.
I'm not gonna say wildstar has good questing, but honestly what do you people want from an MMO? I've seen people nag about stuff in TESO which is done differently -the way they asked for- in wildstar, and they still keep nagging about it in wildstar.
If you want exceptionally good and fun questing, go play a single player RPG where it is possible to have questing which influences the surrounding and the further story, without having the feeling you're just a number. You can't expect the same depth in an MMO.
Dude, questing in WS is worst in 10+ years. I dont even call it questing, we used to make jokes about that kind of thing 10 years ago.
What exactly are you referring to? What exactly in Wildstar's questing is it that you "joke" about? Because I've been playing it and it has lots of different quests with lots of different elements in each quest category. Whether it's typical kill x quests, escort quests, all the ones with mini-games attached to them or the path-specific quests which are unique to each path.
What exactly is it that you dislike in all these quests?
In what way is it worse malab? Questing is good story telling if done well, that's not going to change in a thousand years. If you are bored of quests, don't blame the quests (unless poorly written, and by most accounts the variety and quality is good in wildstar)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I do agree that if the game is not fun right after character creation then they are doing it wrong. I do not remember an mmo that got me interested after a long boring journey through levels. The games i have had fun while leveling are the same ones i still enjoy at higher levels. WoW, GW2, TSW and a little bit of Swtor depending on faction and class. Every time i hear a dev claiming the game starts at end level or whatever, i get bored to tears in the begining and if i make it to a higher level its equally boring (Rift, tera, aion, etc etc etc long list of generic mmos).
Also, I was having fun in ESO since level one, but the game needs way too many updates and changes to make me consider the subscription.
EDIT: forgot to mention taht im not particularly having fun in WS but the highest ive reached is level 18 or so. Cant say much but the early levels are really boring and generic.
I don't know if it's the same for the US version, but I found Archeage Russia more engaging than Wildstar starting out because, even though there were quests, quests, and more quests everywhere, same as Wildstar, Archeage quests are snappier. You kill or collect far less to complete. So if Wildstar devs are thinking of any last minute changes, time to complete per quest would be worth looking at.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I honestly don't find the questing all that bad. It's just your standard MMO questing. I suppose everything up to the lategame/group content is just you standard MMO stuff. They do add their own touch to it, mostly the humor.
It's your standard MMO questing from 10 years ago. Go to quest hub, click on all the quest givers, don't read the nonsensical text, look at map to see where you have to go, go to point and click on or kill whatever the current quest objects are, run back to quest giver and get the rewards. If all the quests at that hub are done follow the breadcrumb quest to the next quest hub and repeat the process.
U don't get it, questing is story telling if done well. People are sick because they don't engage with the story , so quests turn into simple dull xp mechanics. You grind 1 quest and can hand in at 5/10 kills instead of 10/10 - and then guess what - you move onto another quest!
Eventually modern games players will need a wire hooked into their brain to stimulate any form of pleasure!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I honestly don't find the questing all that bad. It's just your standard MMO questing. I suppose everything up to the lategame/group content is just you standard MMO stuff. They do add their own touch to it, mostly the humor.
It's your standard MMO questing from 10 years ago. Go to quest hub, click on all the quest givers, don't read the nonsensical text, look at map to see where you have to go, go to point and click on or kill whatever the current quest objects are, run back to quest giver and get the rewards. If all the quests at that hub are done follow the breadcrumb quest to the next quest hub and repeat the process.
Well dan if a person is stupid enough to do quests and not read the story then what do you expect. Next time u read a book I'm just gonna flick through the pages and count the page numbers - shit now every book is the same - make it shorter!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
This is all a matter of personal taste. I played every AAA themepark in the past years and got bored in every single one of them.
The only themepark i played for more than a couple of months is WoW. I liked the questing in AOC,TSW,GW2,ESO,SWTOR.
The only game i got very bored through questing was WOW, but i love its dungeons. The ones that i like questing, were lacking in every other department for my tastes.
Having played wildstar since closed beta i can say that: Tutorial and starting area's questing were boring. After reaching 15-20 and doing adventures,dungeons,pvp,crafting, i started having a blast. I wont care much for questing once i manage to hit that lvl mark and reach the cap through pvp-dungeons etc.. Longetivity in a themepark, means, having enough endgame to keep the fans hooked IMO. Not having sp RGP kind of questing that gets old after a single playthrough.
I honestly don't find the questing all that bad. It's just your standard MMO questing. I suppose everything up to the lategame/group content is just you standard MMO stuff. They do add their own touch to it, mostly the humor.
It's your standard MMO questing from 10 years ago. Go to quest hub, click on all the quest givers, don't read the nonsensical text, look at map to see where you have to go, go to point and click on or kill whatever the current quest objects are, run back to quest giver and get the rewards. If all the quests at that hub are done follow the breadcrumb quest to the next quest hub and repeat the process.
More or less yes. But like I said further in my post, when any MMO tries to change too much from this there seem to be a lot of people shooting the game down for it. There are enough examples available of this.
GW: While a lot of people liked the game, most people still don't consider it a true MMO.
SWTOR: Has been called Tortanic because people felt the questing was too individual (srsly people should make up their mind)
TESO: Similar to SWTOR, quite a few people find the questing to be too single player.
It was very similar in wow, early quests were about killing wolves, collecting bandana, taking a letter to an inn, then gradually the story started to evolve, you started to get options with skills etc.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I honestly don't find the questing all that bad. It's just your standard MMO questing. I suppose everything up to the lategame/group content is just you standard MMO stuff. They do add their own touch to it, mostly the humor.
It's your standard MMO questing from 10 years ago. Go to quest hub, click on all the quest givers, don't read the nonsensical text, look at map to see where you have to go, go to point and click on or kill whatever the current quest objects are, run back to quest giver and get the rewards. If all the quests at that hub are done follow the breadcrumb quest to the next quest hub and repeat the process.
Must been playing a different game then, cause you complete most quests through the communicator.. But yes questing is boring early on.
For me WildStar started getting really dull after lvl 18-20. The first 4-5 levels are boring but I had a fun and good time from ~6-18. After that it's just quest-grinding (with really bad quest design.. and the amount of them is hilarious.. new zone and 100 new repetitive quests). I managed to get to 50 in the closed beta some months ago. Well.. sadly it didn't get any better at later levels.
Originally posted by Bladestrom It was very similar in wow, early quests were about killing wolves, collecting bandana, taking a letter to an inn, then gradually the story started to evolve, you started to get options with skills etc.
The problem is that people expect to get a AAA single player RPG -story- as questing in an MMO. The thing they don't want however is that it feels like a single player. Which is close to impossible to do, and everything that has tried to, has been shot down for it.
Originally posted by Bladestrom U don't get it, questing is story telling if done well. People are sick because they don't engage with the story , so quests turn into simple dull xp mechanics. You grind 1 quest and can hand in at 5/10 kills instead of 10/10 - and then guess what - you move onto another quest!
this is the biggest problem with mmos for me. Questing takes about 100% of a pve themepark mmo because it tells the story of the game while progressing your character. That is a huge part of the game so if a new mmo still has that same old boring grindy awful questing, even worst with crappy storytelling then the game will feel horribly generic. And no action combat or extra gimmick will save it.
Comments
Pacing = story + exploration and promotion of exploring is what I meant by cohesion with the virtual world (which Wildstar does well by most accounts) Re forms of activity, ofc you need good variety but at the end of the day, if you don't care about the story, alternating between bombing runs in a 'vehicle' or gathering or killing or exploring etc etc is not going to make the experience wonderful, its the story & pacing of exploration within a cohesive virtual world that ultimately engages.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
No what I'm saying is "fun" doesn't just mean shallow, casual, no time-investment needed fun. Some people have fun with deeper games. Some of my favorite games are games that I was absolutely NOT hooked on in the first 20 minutes.
I'm more or less the same way, I really don't pick up many titles due to having such taste. Take games like the X series, what I find fun and engaging is how deep they are, how many options/choices are at my disposal. The feeling of what to do, where to go, etc.. generates a want to explore and find out. Seeing an awesome looking ship fly by makes me want to find out how to build said ship. The experience is enthralling, I'm engaged. Even if I'm lost and don't know what to do. This is part of what creates the fun, the mystery of it all.
I think that's one of the problems for many in the MMO genre today, knowing exactly what to do from the word go, there's nothing to really discover any longer. I'm not going to make a judgement on WS I don't do so without playing said game. YEt everything I read about it says, I'll know what to do from the start, as they've made strides to use those tropes many of us have seen over and over even if refined, it's the same. Many of us out there now, don't really care enough about those later accomplishments to play through what we know to expect yet again.
I mean don't get me wrong I can still find fun in a themepark MMO, but that usually rests solely on the story and questing aspects. It's the rest of the game that tends to be a problem. I don't play RPG's to attend pinata parties
.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
lol
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I might have been naieve to asume that anyone even none-mmorpg player understand a game with the RPG tag on it is a game where progression regardless if one takes it slow or rush thru it. So with RPG's the fun start when you grasp the mechanics, get fully immersed with it's game story, it's community and what nots. This could be right away but it also could take time. But then again I was wrong people don't really want a RPG game or MMORPG they just want a online game.
Dude, questing in WS is worst in 10+ years. I dont even call it questing, we used to make jokes about that kind of thing 10 years ago.
I honestly don't find the questing all that bad. It's just your standard MMO questing. I suppose everything up to the lategame/group content is just your standard MMO stuff. They do add their own touch to it, mostly the humor.
I'm not gonna say wildstar has good questing, but honestly what do you people want from an MMO? I've seen people nag about stuff in TESO which is done differently -the way they asked for- in wildstar, and they still keep nagging about it in wildstar.
If you want exceptionally good and fun questing, go play a single player RPG where it is possible to have questing which influences the surrounding and the further story, without having the feeling you're just a number. You can't expect the same depth in an MMO.
What exactly are you referring to? What exactly in Wildstar's questing is it that you "joke" about? Because I've been playing it and it has lots of different quests with lots of different elements in each quest category. Whether it's typical kill x quests, escort quests, all the ones with mini-games attached to them or the path-specific quests which are unique to each path.
What exactly is it that you dislike in all these quests?
..Cake..
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
true, i spend more time to download and get into that game, than playing the game
although i saw good parts, about lore and fun aspects and good animations, i couldnt get into this extremely cartoon world...
also all this with quests was a huge wall for me !
I do agree that if the game is not fun right after character creation then they are doing it wrong. I do not remember an mmo that got me interested after a long boring journey through levels. The games i have had fun while leveling are the same ones i still enjoy at higher levels. WoW, GW2, TSW and a little bit of Swtor depending on faction and class. Every time i hear a dev claiming the game starts at end level or whatever, i get bored to tears in the begining and if i make it to a higher level its equally boring (Rift, tera, aion, etc etc etc long list of generic mmos).
Also, I was having fun in ESO since level one, but the game needs way too many updates and changes to make me consider the subscription.
EDIT: forgot to mention taht im not particularly having fun in WS but the highest ive reached is level 18 or so. Cant say much but the early levels are really boring and generic.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
It's your standard MMO questing from 10 years ago. Go to quest hub, click on all the quest givers, don't read the nonsensical text, look at map to see where you have to go, go to point and click on or kill whatever the current quest objects are, run back to quest giver and get the rewards. If all the quests at that hub are done follow the breadcrumb quest to the next quest hub and repeat the process.
The Enlightened take things Lightly
Eventually modern games players will need a wire hooked into their brain to stimulate any form of pleasure!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Almost half the quests are not like that.
..Cake..
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
This is all a matter of personal taste. I played every AAA themepark in the past years and got bored in every single one of them.
The only themepark i played for more than a couple of months is WoW. I liked the questing in AOC,TSW,GW2,ESO,SWTOR.
The only game i got very bored through questing was WOW, but i love its dungeons. The ones that i like questing, were lacking in every other department for my tastes.
Having played wildstar since closed beta i can say that: Tutorial and starting area's questing were boring. After reaching 15-20 and doing adventures,dungeons,pvp,crafting, i started having a blast. I wont care much for questing once i manage to hit that lvl mark and reach the cap through pvp-dungeons etc.. Longetivity in a themepark, means, having enough endgame to keep the fans hooked IMO. Not having sp RGP kind of questing that gets old after a single playthrough.
More or less yes. But like I said further in my post, when any MMO tries to change too much from this there seem to be a lot of people shooting the game down for it. There are enough examples available of this.
GW: While a lot of people liked the game, most people still don't consider it a true MMO.
SWTOR: Has been called Tortanic because people felt the questing was too individual (srsly people should make up their mind)
TESO: Similar to SWTOR, quite a few people find the questing to be too single player.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Must been playing a different game then, cause you complete most quests through the communicator.. But yes questing is boring early on.
Elite: Dangerous - Space Exploration & Trading.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
The problem is that people expect to get a AAA single player RPG -story- as questing in an MMO. The thing they don't want however is that it feels like a single player. Which is close to impossible to do, and everything that has tried to, has been shot down for it.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
this is the biggest problem with mmos for me. Questing takes about 100% of a pve themepark mmo because it tells the story of the game while progressing your character. That is a huge part of the game so if a new mmo still has that same old boring grindy awful questing, even worst with crappy storytelling then the game will feel horribly generic. And no action combat or extra gimmick will save it.