The level twenty dungeons will undeniably give you the most frustration. People go into them thinking they can wing it without proper gear and then stand in telegraphs on top of it. My experience has been the higher level dungeons have a much higher level of competence in terms of who joins in. Granted you still get the normal going afk and occasional person standing in fire going on, but for the most part it hits the difficulty level well by keeping it challenging but doable.
The content isn't the issue, it's the player mentality. They should leave the content where it's at.
games out for a week and you want everyone to know the ins and outs of stat priorities pve content and their class an have perfect builds. You need to calm down here cupcake if you say this a month or two from now it may have merit but as of right now you need to get over yourself not everyone can invest the same amount of time nor want to the pacing as stated vehemently by many others is fine and their are tools to train people for these encounters simply leveling does this in pve content eve more so in pvp. so get off your wagon an give people some time. Week 1 release nerfs this is just to funny to laugh at .
Sounds like people are walking in thinking its one of the other 75 MMO's that have come out in the last 5 years. Its nice seeing that what worked in F2P game number 27 just doesn't work here. Maybe there's hope! People do need to be retrained for this one, I like it.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Thats one thing Carbine said they wont do. The bar has been set. There is lots of tools to train the masses and I think people will get it. If people want to raid, they will learn how from dungeons and IMO that how a game should be. To often people get to end game and its a new game they have to learn. I think Carbine got it right.
I absolutely agree, except in red. I don't think people will get it. I honestly don't. When I see tanks and healers coming into dungeons (or even adventures) with the entirely wrong gear, and not specced right, it makes me lose all hope that the player base will adapt. Like I said, you mark targets, try to explain things to people, and they just don't listen. They've already gotten used to how dungeons have been over the last decade. IF people do adapt, it will take much more time.
If Carbine doesn't stick to their guns I'd be really disappointed. I think they actually scared Blizz a little (since WoW will be getting Mythic difficulty now too), and that's tough to do. If they water it down then where's your edge?
WoW is getting mythic because there are a ton of problems with splitting the 10 and 25 sets, and an endless debate of which is more hardcore and legit. In additon, the team working on raids can go balls to the wall now not having to worry about if this mechanic will work in 10 but not 25 etc. You thought wrong.
Until the players you're speaking of OP either unsub or learn how to mouse and keyboard players like yourself with brains will have to suffer when it comes to PUG groups in wildstar. I would seriously suggest you find a guild to solve this issue.
Originally posted by lugal Lol! Game to hard for ya? Unable to join a guild? Nerf game as a solution. Why don't you try to fix things from your end, instead of ruining the game for others just to suit yourself.
I know reading is hard, but next time you post, you should REALLY give it a shot.
I wasn't complaining about the difficulty on a personal level, I was complaining about how the difficulty effects the MAJORITY OF THE PLAYER BASE. As in everyone who doesn't enjoy the increased difficulty (when compared to most other modern MMO's). I like it, but here's the thing, most others don't. And they will not stick around.
Let them leave. Nerfing a game to keep incompetent players around does nothing good for the game. You will have to keep nerfing the game as these knuckleheads get higher in level. It's a slippery slope that you will never recover from once WS starts down that path.
Making games easy only continues to handicap the player base even more as a whole and makes it weaker over time. Make them learn and adapt to become better gamers or leave them in the dust. Giving everyone a trophy only serves to devalue the trophy in the first place.
Originally posted by FoomerangThis is a gear progression mmo. Dungeons will get nerfed by default when the next tier comes out. Been that way with these types of mmos since eq
A) The OP is talking about the leveling dungeons.
The leveling dungeons normalize your level/stats like WoW challenge modes, therefor you are incorrect sir
Um I thought you got to choose whether to be scaled down for better loot, or just steamroll it. I got a dialog box before entering that let me choose this.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Thats one thing Carbine said they wont do. The bar has been set. There is lots of tools to train the masses and I think people will get it. If people want to raid, they will learn how from dungeons and IMO that how a game should be. To often people get to end game and its a new game they have to learn. I think Carbine got it right.
They will nerf it in a few months i promise.
When the subs die off, they have to entice the masses back
Bring back 'Nintendo hard'. If I ever beat Battletoads, I'm getting a tattoo to brag it up! If it's easy for the masses, what's the point other than to say you played? Where's the satisfaction in beating a six year old in chess?
Originally posted by jandrsn Bring back 'Nintendo hard'. If I ever beat Battletoads, I'm getting a tattoo to brag it up! If it's easy for the masses, what's the point other than to say you played? Where's the satisfaction in beating a six year old in chess?
You didn't beat battletoads :P? As for the rest, I don't don't play games for "satisfaction" I play them to have fun, I don't really care about "beating" anyone. Not saying they should nerf their content, but I don't really see your satisfaction as being more important than others fun. IF it's what a majority of those paying a monthly fee want, it shouldn't just be brushed aside by the developers.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Maybe get over yourself and how awesome you are. Then friend players that pug well. Look around for a guild that does what you want to do and lighten up on non end game pugging.
The moment you can finish a dungeon with a crappy pug is the moment I uninstall.
but I don't really see your satisfaction as being more important than others fun.
I imagine my character sitting in a self-made little cathedral. Just browsing the latest deals in the auction house by means of his personal trader/butler. It takes a while for each item to be sold or bought as the butler has to travel all the way to the capital to collect the item and bring it back. And of course there's the risk of being ambushed while ferrying the goods.
A rider appears by the gate. The guild is about to engage the Blue Eyes White Dragon again. I'm the only one whose gear delivers enough stamina while keeping the Defense and the Frost Resist at cap that they know. They need me. He's here to ask me to join their raid.
------------
In the real MMO...logging on at 7:45 and before loading in having the raid invite is kinda nice.
------------
In a past world...of warcraft...in BC. I had to download an addon that pops every new whispering person into his own window of chat. Why?
Robokapp is now online.
[guy1]: Daily?
[guy2]: Hey Robo wanna tank H SL? It's daily.
[guildy]: Tank heroic for me?
[really-good-healer-from-frends-list]: Wanna do daily?
[another-healer-from-frends-list]: Hey we need a tank for daily.
People said it was hard to get groups for heroics pre LFR. I had to set my DND to say "Saved to daily".
Satisfaction doesn't come from being more important. It comes from realizing you started from a point where you had to convince them a non-warrior can tank heroics...and now you have to shoo away people inviting you to their groups. That...IS PROGRESSION. Not in-game but within the community.
Some people will never experience it with modern MMOs. So I can't explain the satisfaction very well. I'm just happy i had the opportunity to experience it myself.
That's great and all, but I never said satisfaction comes from being more important, I didn't even say anything close to that I said devs shouldn't listen to a small group of customers over a larger majority, which I didn't even say is happening, it was a what if scenario, is this the part where I'm supposed to bring up my SWG cred because many called on me to help with PVP from multiple guilds? No, it's not, I'm really not all that proud of that TBH, I spent way too much time in that game .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Again, in any instance where something is made to be repeated over and over again, making it overtly difficult ends up making it tedious. When you take a group of complete strangers and put them in a group together, having instant-wipe mechanics is a recipe for frustration and failure. if your solution is "join a guild" or "make friends" then I may as well be playing Borderlands and not an MMO as the extent of my social interaction will then be amongst the same handful of people. it is also inconvenient as then your ability to enjoy the game is entirely contingent on the whims of other people. If you're unable to find a group to run dungeons when you have time to play, you whore yourself out to the masses. When the dungeon cannot be completed by the average PUG, you have a bad time.
Blizzard learned this lesson years ago. Developers who continuously make WoW clones are not smarter than Blizzard. Their personal vision of what WoW should be is not what the average gamer wants in an MMORPG. They'll learn this lesson soon enough and will eventually nerf the dungeons. This is always the case with new MMOs.
Nerfing the dungeons would be a mistake, there are already loads of games with easy dungeons out there and this game need this as a selling point. There have to be MMOs with different difficulty out there and while you miss out on some players you get a bunch others who are tired of easy street and unlike the bad players they have very few other games to jump to.
Again, in any instance where something is made to be repeated over and over again, making it overtly difficult ends up making it tedious. When you take a group of complete strangers and put them in a group together, having instant-wipe mechanics is a recipe for frustration and failure. if your solution is "join a guild" or "make friends" then I may as well be playing Borderlands and not an MMO as the extent of my social interaction will then be amongst the same handful of people. it is also inconvenient as then your ability to enjoy the game is entirely contingent on the whims of other people. If you're unable to find a group to run dungeons when you have time to play, you whore yourself out to the masses. When the dungeon cannot be completed by the average PUG, you have a bad time.
Blizzard learned this lesson years ago. Developers who continuously make WoW clones are not smarter than Blizzard. Their personal vision of what WoW should be is not what the average gamer wants in an MMORPG. They'll learn this lesson soon enough and will eventually nerf the dungeons. This is always the case with new MMOs.
These are some fine points.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Loke666 Nerfing the dungeons would be a mistake, there are already loads of games with easy dungeons out there and this game need this as a selling point. There have to be MMOs with different difficulty out there and while you miss out on some players you get a bunch others who are tired of easy street and unlike the bad players they have very few other games to jump to.
I get what you're saying, however you do have to consider what super pointed out above you. The harder difficulty is fine for a selling point, however how would lower tier/level areas/dungeons effect what is essentially a top heavy game (IE more focus on top tier progression based play)?
We're talking the road there here, if this stuff is almost impossible for PUGs it defeats the purpose of a MMO, it becomes a game basically designed around pre-made groups. Everyone else suffers for it (apparently). I'm not sure that is a sound plan, what happens a few months down the road when the community becomes top heavy? How do new players progress (not just levels but gear, and much needed late game knowledge) at all, when there are not as many around in those tiers?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Again, in any instance where something is made to be repeated over and over again, making it overtly difficult ends up making it tedious. When you take a group of complete strangers and put them in a group together, having instant-wipe mechanics is a recipe for frustration and failure. if your solution is "join a guild" or "make friends" then I may as well be playing Borderlands and not an MMO as the extent of my social interaction will then be amongst the same handful of people. it is also inconvenient as then your ability to enjoy the game is entirely contingent on the whims of other people. If you're unable to find a group to run dungeons when you have time to play, you whore yourself out to the masses. When the dungeon cannot be completed by the average PUG, you have a bad time.
Blizzard learned this lesson years ago. Developers who continuously make WoW clones are not smarter than Blizzard. Their personal vision of what WoW should be is not what the average gamer wants in an MMORPG. They'll learn this lesson soon enough and will eventually nerf the dungeons. This is always the case with new MMOs.
on the other hand, unstimulating content is just grind.
and unstimulating content with bad players is a fustrating grind.
Running the same content repeatedly is a grind in and of itself regardless of how difficult it is. The entire premise behind running dungeons in modern MMOs is to get better gear to complete quests or to raid. At endgame, the primary focus in PvE is on raid content. There's no reason to frustrate players by making dungeon runs punishingly difficult due to the sheer number of times players will be force to repeat said content in order to obtain the necessary gear to reach the next level of character progression.
Raid content should be difficult and should require a high degree of cooperation and skill to complete. This is because it should take players awhile to complete the current raid content, so they do not burn out before the next content update. Dungeons are just a means to an end.
If you were to tell me that it's a shame that MMOs are designed like this I would be inclined to agree, but the fact remains that this is model Carbine chose for Wildstar to follow.
the extent of my social interaction will then be amongst the same handful of people.
Thing is easy dungeons + PUGs + group/raid finders lead to no social interaction. You just jump in, kill stuff, jump out and many times half the group doesn't even say "Hi".
Originally posted by nethaniah
Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
the extent of my social interaction will then be amongst the same handful of people.
Thing is easy dungeons + PUGs + group/raid finders lead to no social interaction. You just jump in, kill stuff, jump out and many times half the group doesn't even say "Hi".
Is this really the take away of his point though? What he's saying is it becomes necessary to rely on having friends around at all times to complete anything. His point about socialization is, everyone else becomes an obsolete option. Kinda hard to meet people and socialize when you'd be avoiding playing with them in the first place.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The problem is, if you aren't ever challenged, most people WONT get any better. I feel that people should have 'easier' content to do (adventures fit that gap) but the game needs difficulty to promote people playing better. It gives something for players to achieve and work for.
I completely agree difficulty should be an important option to offer. People need to learn, but that entails them getting a chance to, hopefully the people like the OP are few and far between in ratios concerning the community.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
The level twenty dungeons will undeniably give you the most frustration. People go into them thinking they can wing it without proper gear and then stand in telegraphs on top of it. My experience has been the higher level dungeons have a much higher level of competence in terms of who joins in. Granted you still get the normal going afk and occasional person standing in fire going on, but for the most part it hits the difficulty level well by keeping it challenging but doable.
The content isn't the issue, it's the player mentality. They should leave the content where it's at.
I have been playing every day since early beta and am currently lvl 25 (which is not high). I am a very casual player with limited time.
I hope they never, ever, make any of their content easier. The challenge is what makes me log in every night.
Sinister Savant MMORPG Community
WoW is getting mythic because there are a ton of problems with splitting the 10 and 25 sets, and an endless debate of which is more hardcore and legit. In additon, the team working on raids can go balls to the wall now not having to worry about if this mechanic will work in 10 but not 25 etc. You thought wrong.
Until the players you're speaking of OP either unsub or learn how to mouse and keyboard players like yourself with brains will have to suffer when it comes to PUG groups in wildstar. I would seriously suggest you find a guild to solve this issue.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
Let them leave. Nerfing a game to keep incompetent players around does nothing good for the game. You will have to keep nerfing the game as these knuckleheads get higher in level. It's a slippery slope that you will never recover from once WS starts down that path.
Making games easy only continues to handicap the player base even more as a whole and makes it weaker over time. Make them learn and adapt to become better gamers or leave them in the dust. Giving everyone a trophy only serves to devalue the trophy in the first place.
I seen this coming way before release, people want hardcore PvE but can't put up with bad players.
OP already calling for a dungeon nerf??? NO THANKS!!!
It´s a new game...with new mechanics & classes... people will get used to it and YES they will get better at it.
They will get better gear and, at the end ,dungeons will be an easy ride when we learn how to... that´s part of the fun too.
A lot of people is already lvl 50...with nerfed dungeons they will be crying a river in a week because they ran out of content.
It seems like OP just wants his speed runs on day 2...
You know the easiest solution without ruining the dificulty for everyone else OP?
Get a bunch of super-duper awesome players like yourself,make a party.... and beat the game.
Nope, no choice.
They will nerf it in a few months i promise.
When the subs die off, they have to entice the masses back
You didn't beat battletoads :P? As for the rest, I don't don't play games for "satisfaction" I play them to have fun, I don't really care about "beating" anyone. Not saying they should nerf their content, but I don't really see your satisfaction as being more important than others fun. IF it's what a majority of those paying a monthly fee want, it shouldn't just be brushed aside by the developers.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Maybe get over yourself and how awesome you are. Then friend players that pug well. Look around for a guild that does what you want to do and lighten up on non end game pugging.
The moment you can finish a dungeon with a crappy pug is the moment I uninstall.
That's great and all, but I never said satisfaction comes from being more important, I didn't even say anything close to that I said devs shouldn't listen to a small group of customers over a larger majority, which I didn't even say is happening, it was a what if scenario, is this the part where I'm supposed to bring up my SWG cred because many called on me to help with PVP from multiple guilds? No, it's not, I'm really not all that proud of that TBH, I spent way too much time in that game
.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Again, in any instance where something is made to be repeated over and over again, making it overtly difficult ends up making it tedious. When you take a group of complete strangers and put them in a group together, having instant-wipe mechanics is a recipe for frustration and failure. if your solution is "join a guild" or "make friends" then I may as well be playing Borderlands and not an MMO as the extent of my social interaction will then be amongst the same handful of people. it is also inconvenient as then your ability to enjoy the game is entirely contingent on the whims of other people. If you're unable to find a group to run dungeons when you have time to play, you whore yourself out to the masses. When the dungeon cannot be completed by the average PUG, you have a bad time.
Blizzard learned this lesson years ago. Developers who continuously make WoW clones are not smarter than Blizzard. Their personal vision of what WoW should be is not what the average gamer wants in an MMORPG. They'll learn this lesson soon enough and will eventually nerf the dungeons. This is always the case with new MMOs.
These are some fine points.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I get what you're saying, however you do have to consider what super pointed out above you. The harder difficulty is fine for a selling point, however how would lower tier/level areas/dungeons effect what is essentially a top heavy game (IE more focus on top tier progression based play)?
We're talking the road there here, if this stuff is almost impossible for PUGs it defeats the purpose of a MMO, it becomes a game basically designed around pre-made groups. Everyone else suffers for it (apparently). I'm not sure that is a sound plan, what happens a few months down the road when the community becomes top heavy? How do new players progress (not just levels but gear, and much needed late game knowledge) at all, when there are not as many around in those tiers?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Running the same content repeatedly is a grind in and of itself regardless of how difficult it is. The entire premise behind running dungeons in modern MMOs is to get better gear to complete quests or to raid. At endgame, the primary focus in PvE is on raid content. There's no reason to frustrate players by making dungeon runs punishingly difficult due to the sheer number of times players will be force to repeat said content in order to obtain the necessary gear to reach the next level of character progression.
Raid content should be difficult and should require a high degree of cooperation and skill to complete. This is because it should take players awhile to complete the current raid content, so they do not burn out before the next content update. Dungeons are just a means to an end.
If you were to tell me that it's a shame that MMOs are designed like this I would be inclined to agree, but the fact remains that this is model Carbine chose for Wildstar to follow.
Thing is easy dungeons + PUGs + group/raid finders lead to no social interaction. You just jump in, kill stuff, jump out and many times half the group doesn't even say "Hi".
Is this really the take away of his point though? What he's saying is it becomes necessary to rely on having friends around at all times to complete anything. His point about socialization is, everyone else becomes an obsolete option. Kinda hard to meet people and socialize when you'd be avoiding playing with them in the first place.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson