Every time I see someone quitting because the game is too hard, I realise how much we needed a game like Wildstar in the mmo landscape.
There are 2 other million games that will give up on their principles and become easier and easier every passing month to catter to casuals and let them "win". You can choose and play any of those. But Wildstar is something else, and I hope it won't change.
Long live Wildstar.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
Im coming from FFXIV: ARR. In FFXIV: ARR ppl stays until kill to boss or complete dungeon,raid etc. At least group disbands after few tries and when most ppl agreed. But in Wildstar ppl leaves or disband after first try or disbands.
Unpatient and many young ppl plays Wildstar ?! I think yes..
Im coming from FFXIV: ARR. In FFXIV: ARR ppl stays until kill to boss or complete dungeon,raid etc. At least group disbands after few tries and when most ppl agreed. But in Wildstar ppl leaves or disband after first try or disbands.
Unpatient and many young ppl plays Wildstar ?! I think yes..
What you wrote is along the lines of my point regarding community and the game. I played FFXIV myself, tanked to cap and pushed through the difficulty because the community were willing to work together. Now though FFXIV is a semi-casual players dream boat, so much stuff to do and 3 faction pvp coming plus ninja.
Adventures and Dungeons were never this hard btw in beta they got buffed hard because of the hardcore player base complaining.
Im not complaining about the difficulty, Im looking at the mismatch between the community and the difficulty carbine are attempting to funnel the player base through.
Because of personal projects, familiar compromises and work I've been demoted to casual - i play an average of of 15-20h a week. Point is I still enjoy challenging content, considering myself a competent player. I'm consistent with my life-schedule and I know that I'll not be one of the first to complete the raids or get the best shinnies. No problems for me, if the pros get there in 4 weeks, I'll be there in 2-3 months. It will cost me more time to get to the milestone but I'll eventually hit it. Having a guild and some pals (some of them already knew, others I've made in-game, I like to be social and rp) helps. After all, this was advertized as a game with a strong social component.
I say this because the point of this discussion is not about Hardcore VS Casual, no. This is about Instant-Gratification VS Keep-The-Value-Of-The-Rewards. In this sense, the market is already saturated with products catering to the former. It makes perfect sense to me that we've got an specialized, niche product in the market that caters to the latter.
Not gonna conceal that the attitude of the entitled crowd asking for easy-rewards pisses me off immensely. The devs of this game were crystalline with regards to the kind of game they were creating. To pretend to change this game to turn it into another instant-gratification crapfest where the mobs are pinata bags and where socialing and guilds just don't matter is shameless and entitled ad nausea. It is a fucking obscenity.
By the way, putting that line in the title about "lack of stuff at cap" is intellectual dishonesty at its finest. There's no themepark in the market with the amount of content and features as WS, no one comes even close.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
It's not the only stuff it offers but it is a raider's home.
I figured as much...Watching the devs unleashed video right now a direct quote from it. Keep in mind discussing endgame...Some paraphrasing as he added a lot of descriptors to each little talking point.
"We have content for everybody, You've probably heard about raids being crazy for the hardcore 1%, and it's true and they are, but we have that type of content for everybody...", "we have root PVE content, Like adventures. We have battle grounds, arenas, open world PVP server rulesets, then for the hardcore PVP 1 % we have warplots"
What was that everyone was saying about games catering to everybody? As well as do your research?
And all that stuff you listed IS available to everyone (as far as I know, I don't play WS). The difference is that YOU are asking for the RAIDING to be open to everyone when in your very own quote it says they are only for the hardcore 1%
You make zero sense.
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Originally posted by Bladestrom Lol it's not a 'weird' plan, it's about design ethos and catering to a market. Is Eve weird because it doesn't have no pvp zones- no, would eve be better with no pvp zones - no. I'm I entitled to get non pvp zones because I decide to sub to eve - no.
EVE has safe zones...
Inside a station isn't a zone, and it's the only place you can't be blown up.
Originally posted by Wicoa Thanks all for the reponses.I suppose I should add, the difficulty doesnt bother me so much its that Im not sure a dungeon finder tool and lack of ingame comms suits the difficulty level.The problem is imho that players will no longer really strive to hit that content and improve their character/play, they are generally happy in their social guilds and if game is too hard they just slowly drop off and head back to other games.I believe carbine will make things easier as quite frankly it comes down to money. Everything is just about it being a game right? And from what I have witnessed over the years, people are not willing so much to transition to higher game play they are satisfied being who they are and what they do. They will find a game that suits their style again money = dev direction.
but again u have to remember that its only a month old. there r still thousands of players who havent hit end game yet. i was in headstart and im still only 26. im an altaholic. not everyone rushes to endgame. this is the best mmo to launch in quite sometime. maybe people r enjoying the ride this time. who knows when u will get another.
Originally posted by Uhwop I do think its somewhat funny irony for someone who chose to use the name distopia to question why a game can't cater to everyone.
What does my forum name have to do with asking a pretty logical question, at least IMO? Lets go back to where this started, a poster said all the people seeking challenge would leave if they catered to others, I asked why would that be the case. As offering something for others, does not remove the existence of challenging content.
Why is that a logical question? Because hardcore raiders don't usually make up a large part of any communities player base, there are plenty of others, from those who PVP to those who craft, as well as those who casually partake. Yet they are to cater to only one segment of that current player-base, otherwise the hardcore leave? What sense does that make from a business perspective? "Hey thanks for getting us off the ground, but from here on out, you'll want to play something else, if you don't want to raid...". Is that the sales pitch here?
But I forgot...I'm the one thinking from a self centered perspective..
It has nothing to do with it other than being ironically funny.
The op wasn't talking about raiding difficulty, and many here aren't talking about raid difficulty. The game, as a whole, was designed to be more difficult than the typical modern mmo. However, carbine has been pretty clear that their vision for the game is one that focuses on end game raiding with a higher difficulty, but that's not the entirety of the game, jut the end game focus.
I haven't seen any reports about this game costing excessive millions to make, so they probably don't need millions of subs to keep it going. They designed a niche game, yet your entire argument revolves around the idea that there won't be enough people interested in a harder MMO to keep the game going.
There are a ton of former WoW players that left because of the reduction in difficulty, and blizzards attempt to make end game an all inclusive activity. There are plenty of people that want something more akin to vanilla WoW, which carbine has been pretty up front about providing that type of experience.
You keep using the word logic, I'm not so sure you understand what that means.
Logic would dictate that if a game like EVE, that fills an even smaller niche than WS does, can thrive, then there's no reason that a game catering to a larger niche can't.
But I understand your "logic" very well, you made it clear in an earlier post. You're the person that will complain to a dev that you pay a sub like everyone else and should be able to complete all the content for that very reason. That very little bit of information is all it takes to understand that you're exactly the sort of person to go into a game and expect it to cater to you because you pay a sub. I'm sure you'll deny it, but you've written exactly the same stuff people would write on the Rift forums when they would demand that trion give them a way to gain raid gear without having to raid.
It was exactly your kind of attitude that drove me away from Rift. I got sick of the self entitled, shitty attitudes that many people brought to the community and game, demanding that things be changed so they don't have to actually do the content the devs created yet be rewarded the same as those that did.
And yes, that is an incredibly self centered form of thinking.
Good luck once you hit cap (to which I was one of the slowest amongst my friends with job, family and grass to mow). The servers I am on are full of casual semi-casual guilds.
The problems.:
PvE Endgame. its all about Gold Medals, it is not worth running dungeons/adventures unless you are aiming for gold. Thats how you get the good loot. The problem is the majority of the time there is no tracker or guide on how well your group is doing. You NEED comms and a brain.
Now I am down with that, problem is there is a massive mismatch between how the community is behaving towards this with the amount of casual guilds. Trying to convince pugs to care is an uphill struggle, semi to hc guilds are very few and usually closed off.
PvP 2 BGs.. Game is young so okay.
This game SCREAMS fun and it is to a point and it is the most polished launch of any mmorpg I have played. Problem is I find myself with little to do unless I have a crack squad of elite trained team mates around me. Which is not often...
The mismatch is real and the fate of the game depends on how carbine addresses this problem. Hyperbole maybe or just soup for thought.
This is just one gamers opinion whose friends are beginning to twiddle thumbs while whistling "what to do now carbine".
Op could you explain alittle about all the other feature's of the game? I understand if you may not like crafting, housing or what ever. OR maybe you already have done and see it all already?
Just curious because with almost any MMORPG the most loudest complaints often just show one or 2 things these games offer often it's quest or combat, everything else hardly get's mentioned when people explain they are bored or feel the game needs more content.
But as said maybe you have done all of that or simply don't like those other feature's.
Problem is I find myself with little to do unless I have a crack squad of elite trained team mates around me.
You keep talking about about casual guilds and pugs, veteran/gold dungeon runs and ranked Pvp were not intended for those players. The dungeons are a direct path to raiding, and if you can't succeed at the dungeons then you wont even come close to the raids.
Yes, much of the endgame is designed for organized teams at a high skill level, how did you miss that information with all the videos and articles all over the web? You do have other content to do but no it wont give you the high end gear...that's exactly how they designed it, and like Mael said, the new patch is coming in a little over a week.
Indeed that's exactly how they designed it. And that's why six months from now they will be struggling to maintain solid sub numbers, if they keep this mentality. I see people claiming that WildStar doesn't need big sub numbers, 200K to 300K are enough they say. Well, these people should stop daydreaming because AAA MMO's like WS can't be sustained with such numbers. Not with the hardcores craving for more quality content every few months. Who is going to pay for this?
I am lucky to be in a very well organized PvE guild so i won't go through the OP's ordeal. I will do my vet runs, get my gold medals and see the raids. However, this does not blind fold me to not comprehend that in 2014 you can't release an ambitious theme park MMO for a niche market alone. Not when players / customers have numerous other options.
Problem is I find myself with little to do unless I have a crack squad of elite trained team mates around me.
You keep talking about about casual guilds and pugs, veteran/gold dungeon runs and ranked Pvp were not intended for those players. The dungeons are a direct path to raiding, and if you can't succeed at the dungeons then you wont even come close to the raids.
Yes, much of the endgame is designed for organized teams at a high skill level, how did you miss that information with all the videos and articles all over the web? You do have other content to do but no it wont give you the high end gear...that's exactly how they designed it, and like Mael said, the new patch is coming in a little over a week.
Indeed that's exactly how they designed it. And that's why six months from now they will be struggling to maintain solid sub numbers, if they keep this mentality. I see people claiming that WildStar doesn't need big sub numbers, 200K to 300K are enough they say. Well, these people should stop daydreaming because AAA MMO's like WS can't be sustained with such numbers. Not with the hardcores craving for more quality content every few months. Who is going to pay for this?
I am lucky to be in a very well organized PvE guild so i won't go through the OP's ordeal. I will do my vet runs, get my gold medals and see the raids. However, this does not blind fold me to not comprehend that in 2014 you can't release an ambitious theme park MMO for a niche market alone. Not when players / customers have numerous other options.
Random guy on the Internet proclaims what isn't sustainable with no means of showing evidence that its not.
How much did they spend on development? What is the minimum sub rate that the game requires in relation to the investment in initial and future development? How many subs do they need to cover bandwidth usage, which has actually gotten cheaper over the years?
What exactly is the evidence that its not possible, or even that the game will only sustain 200-300k subs.
I have not seen a single report that this game cost into the hundreds of millions like some recent releases, and it sure isn't receiving anywheres near the level of negative criticism that some recent releases have received.
By all indications this is the best received MMO to release in years.
PS, how many other MMO's in the last few years actually had to open new servers when the game launched? FF14:ARR is the only one I can think of and that game doing great; after being closed down and redeveloped. Yet some of you think this one wont work out?
Week and a half until new content. Couple patches for bug fixes over time. I think it's doing just fine. Take a week off or work on finishing up getting challenges, housing items, attunement, gear, mounts etc etc. This is one of the only games to launch with a competent endgame.. but lets be real, it's 3 weeks in. Give it some time bro.. go mentor down a help some lower level players an train your own elite squad of awesome badasses who care about doing shit right; then when new content hits and more people get up to cap, you'll be ahead of the curve.
This begs to question why are there do many folks at end game three weeks in? Bro.
Idk man, I'm at lvl 33 but I have 2 kids and a job. Some people might be able to play more then others. It only takes 3 days or so of played time to get to cap from what I understand, though I spend a lot of time on my house so that's holding me up more. I'm also not in any rush to burn through the content..
Problem is I find myself with little to do unless I have a crack squad of elite trained team mates around me.
You keep talking about about casual guilds and pugs, veteran/gold dungeon runs and ranked Pvp were not intended for those players. The dungeons are a direct path to raiding, and if you can't succeed at the dungeons then you wont even come close to the raids.
Yes, much of the endgame is designed for organized teams at a high skill level, how did you miss that information with all the videos and articles all over the web? You do have other content to do but no it wont give you the high end gear...that's exactly how they designed it, and like Mael said, the new patch is coming in a little over a week.
Indeed that's exactly how they designed it. And that's why six months from now they will be struggling to maintain solid sub numbers, if they keep this mentality. I see people claiming that WildStar doesn't need big sub numbers, 200K to 300K are enough they say. Well, these people should stop daydreaming because AAA MMO's like WS can't be sustained with such numbers. Not with the hardcores craving for more quality content every few months. Who is going to pay for this?
I am lucky to be in a very well organized PvE guild so i won't go through the OP's ordeal. I will do my vet runs, get my gold medals and see the raids. However, this does not blind fold me to not comprehend that in 2014 you can't release an ambitious theme park MMO for a niche market alone. Not when players / customers have numerous other options.
Over the past 5+ years nothing but easy, hold your hand for everything, MMOs have released. They have failed to hold subs. In fact, games like WoW which have went the way of easy mode are also losing many players. Yet according to you, Carbine is going to lose subs because the game isn't easy? Hmm, something does not compute there. Perhaps players will stay with Wildstar since you know, they won't have done every thing possible in the first month of the game.
I suspect the people who proclaimed Wildstar's demise after a sub fee was announced are the same players who are now proclaiming it's demise due to the difficulty. At this point, just pat people like this on the head and smile. I feel sorry for them.
They harbor the exact same mentality that a lot of developers do.
They're doing the equivalent of a lemming parade off a cliff. The first dev goes over and dies, and then the next dev thinks they'll survive doing the exact same thing.
One developer spends excessive amounts of money turning a popular IP into an MMO with a focus on single player narrative, no real endgame, a lack of polish, and an attempt to cater to as many people as possible; that's ToR and it failed. Then along comes ESO, and developers full of hubris who refused to think that they would end up laying at the bottom of the cliff with the guys before them even though they're doing the exact same thing.
The saying history repeats itself exists for a reason, because we generally aren't capable of learning from the past. This genre is a perfect example.
Blizzard actually looked at what people liked and disliked about EQ and developed around that, resulting in a runaway hit. Carbine did the exact same thing, basing they're development around what people liked and disliked about WoW; with a focus on challenging content which WoW offered at its peak.
Seanmcad got blasted in another thread when he said that most people are morons, but he was right. Most people aren't capable of learning from the past, and in my opinion that's a defining trait of the moronic.
I'm not playing Wildstar but I find it hard to believe that if there is difficult max level content, that it will stay that way. Every MMO I've played in the last several years that shipped with difficult content has been nerfed.
RIFT - On release, the expert dungeons, particularly the Tier 2s, were extremely difficult. The devs said this was intended. Sure enough, about 6 months after release, they added a group finder and severely nerfed the difficulty of all expert dungeons to the point anyone could do them.
SW:TOR - Explosive Conflict (raid) and Lost Island (4-man) added after release and were very difficult, both ended up being nerfed.
These are just two prominent examples from games I've played in the last few years, and I know there are more examples.
This is a theme park mmo, I expected it to be this way, so what's the big deal OP? WS will be know different than the others mmo's that have come before it, but definitely <imo> going to be a niche community game.
I believe theme park mmo's have finally hit burn out with most of the gaming community now. All we got now is mmo's trying to reinvent the hamster wheel in their game that WoW made popular.
Developers should be looking back at what made games like Asherons Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Shadowbane, EQ, SWG and UO very popular and not follow WoW as a Catalyst, cause all you will get is another WoW with a different skin.
I think EQN, Black Desert, SC, ArcheAge and Repop are onto something, guess we will soon find out. What we are seeing now is a lot of games trying to incorporate the mine craft formula in their mmo's where it's the journey and not about the end game. We already have hundreds of them games already, take your pick.
Problem is I find myself with little to do unless I have a crack squad of elite trained team mates around me.
You keep talking about about casual guilds and pugs, veteran/gold dungeon runs and ranked Pvp were not intended for those players. The dungeons are a direct path to raiding, and if you can't succeed at the dungeons then you wont even come close to the raids.
Yes, much of the endgame is designed for organized teams at a high skill level, how did you miss that information with all the videos and articles all over the web? You do have other content to do but no it wont give you the high end gear...that's exactly how they designed it, and like Mael said, the new patch is coming in a little over a week.
Indeed that's exactly how they designed it. And that's why six months from now they will be struggling to maintain solid sub numbers, if they keep this mentality. I see people claiming that WildStar doesn't need big sub numbers, 200K to 300K are enough they say. Well, these people should stop daydreaming because AAA MMO's like WS can't be sustained with such numbers. Not with the hardcores craving for more quality content every few months. Who is going to pay for this?
I am lucky to be in a very well organized PvE guild so i won't go through the OP's ordeal. I will do my vet runs, get my gold medals and see the raids. However, this does not blind fold me to not comprehend that in 2014 you can't release an ambitious theme park MMO for a niche market alone. Not when players / customers have numerous other options.
Random guy on the Internet proclaims what isn't sustainable with no means of showing evidence that its not.
How much did they spend on development? What is the minimum sub rate that the game requires in relation to the investment in initial and future development? How many subs do they need to cover bandwidth usage, which has actually gotten cheaper over the years?
What exactly is the evidence that its not possible, or even that the game will only sustain 200-300k subs.
I have not seen a single report that this game cost into the hundreds of millions like some recent releases, and it sure isn't receiving anywheres near the level of negative criticism that some recent releases have received.
By all indications this is the best received MMO to release in years.
PS, how many other MMO's in the last few years actually had to open new servers when the game launched? FF14:ARR is the only one I can think of and that game doing great; after being closed down and redeveloped. Yet some of you think this one wont work out?
Agree
Plus if any1 knows a mmo in the west having more than 500k subs can he pls point it? Rift & TERA are F2P, GW2 B2P, SWTOR out of 1.5m overall only 300-350k are subbed, EvE has 400-450k most of them double & triple accounts and ESO sinked already. So except WoW, maybe only FFA has >500k subs.
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1 Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
Week and a half until new content. Couple patches for bug fixes over time. I think it's doing just fine. Take a week off or work on finishing up getting challenges, housing items, attunement, gear, mounts etc etc. This is one of the only games to launch with a competent endgame.. but lets be real, it's 3 weeks in. Give it some time bro.. go mentor down a help some lower level players an train your own elite squad of awesome badasses who care about doing shit right; then when new content hits and more people get up to cap, you'll be ahead of the curve.
This begs to question… why are there do many folks at end game three weeks in? Bro.
Exactly!
I'm willing to bet that these posters hailing "hardcore" would be weeping if the path to cap was as "hardcore" as the end game content. I, myself, enjoy and thrive on a game being difficult. But I like my difficulty to be in the journey as well as at end game. I say bring back a death penalty resulting in XP and steep armor damage fees. I say make the leveling process increase gradually with every level gained. There used to be a time when "dinging" a level meant something. Nowadays players "ding" up to ten times or more each day, and sometimes dozens of levels. Where is the fun in that? Getting to cap should be the accomplishment, not something to endure through in 3 weeks just to face end game content. Obtaining the best gear should only be through crafting and very difficult dungeon runs. So if you don't cut by earning it through difficult dungeon runs then you better farm heavily and save up to buy your top end gear from hard working crafters or you don't get the best gear. I can keep going but I think you get my drift. Being "hardcore" is not getting to cap in 3 weeks and doing "hard mode" raid dungeons. Being "hardcore" mean enduring a difficult journey and getting to cap.
Just putting things in perspective.
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
I don't understand how people have hit max level by now and become bored.
You clearly are the locust horde bunch that must be constantly consuming things.
I starting at head start, and have a level 26 on Dominion and 22 on Exile and have been playing at least 15-20 hours a week.
The game is massive and there is a lot to experience. My guild is pretty awesome - we came into Wildstar together, and maybe that is where the difference will lay for me. We have fun questing together, helping each other out with bounties, quest chains, dungeons, adventures, ship hands, housing and plots.
Are these the people that just blow through the quests, not even reading them, not even taking time to enjoy what it is they are doing? The same people that need that desire to constantly feel like they are being rewarded and "getting somewhere"?
The ultimate consumer, never satisfied, never content, never living in the moment and never happy.
Originally posted by Arskaaa "when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
I'm not playing Wildstar but I find it hard to believe that if there is difficult max level content, that it will stay that way. Every MMO I've played in the last several years that shipped with difficult content has been nerfed.
RIFT - On release, the expert dungeons, particularly the Tier 2s, were extremely difficult. The devs said this was intended. Sure enough, about 6 months after release, they added a group finder and severely nerfed the difficulty of all expert dungeons to the point anyone could do them.
SW:TOR - Explosive Conflict (raid) and Lost Island (4-man) added after release and were very difficult, both ended up being nerfed.
These are just two prominent examples from games I've played in the last few years, and I know there are more examples.
On top of both of those games attempting to cater to a larger audience by reducing difficulty and making content more accessible to the majority, they share another common feature, they both ended up F2P. Go figure.
I stopped playing rift for the same reason is stopped playing WoW, they kept making the game easier, and that's the same reason all the people I played those games with stopped as well.
This is hilarious considering two level cap zones are being added at the beginning of July. Saying there isn't enough cap content in WildStar is just ludicrous.
Originally posted by nbtscan I don't see how it's a mismatch. This game was touted as a game for hardcore 20 and 40 man raids. It shouldn't be a big surprise when people start reaching max level that Carbine is going to start bleeding a lot of subs because people simply aren't good enough to do that content.
^This. people on this site and most forums talk a big game about how they are hardcore, WoW is easy etc etc, yet hardcore raiders are a very very small portion of the MMO landscape. Building your game to cater to those people, and those people alone, is not a good game design choice if you want a lot of subs. The trick is finding a good balance similer to WoW Wotlk (and WoD, it seems), to where there is ample "casual" group content, but tons of hardcore stuff as well. I am not calling for the game to be nerfed what so ever, just dont expect many subs to stick around.
And for what its worth, Wildstar has the most endgame content of any themepark at launch, ever, and that includes WoW.
I don't understand how people have hit max level by now and become bored.
You clearly are the locust horde bunch that must be constantly consuming things.
I starting at head start, and have a level 26 on Dominion and 22 on Exile and have been playing at least 15-20 hours a week.
The game is massive and there is a lot to experience. My guild is pretty awesome - we came into Wildstar together, and maybe that is where the difference will lay for me. We have fun questing together, helping each other out with bounties, quest chains, dungeons, adventures, ship hands, housing and plots.
Are these the people that just blow through the quests, not even reading them, not even taking time to enjoy what it is they are doing? The same people that need that desire to constantly feel like they are being rewarded and "getting somewhere"?
The ultimate consumer, never satisfied, never content, never living in the moment and never happy.
For the life of me, I also don't understand this rush to end game mentality. Where did the genre go wrong where suddenly the game starts at endgame. WTF happened to this genre? Developers spend tens of millions of dollars to develop a game with beautiful worlds, story lines, puzzles etc., and everyone rushes to cap in days. Why not just play an FPS if that's all you're interested in? It's moronic but it has become the norm. It's ridiculous to say the least. Yet they call themselves "hardcore." Pfffttt ~
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
I don't understand how people have hit max level by now and become bored.
You clearly are the locust horde bunch that must be constantly consuming things.
I starting at head start, and have a level 26 on Dominion and 22 on Exile and have been playing at least 15-20 hours a week.
The game is massive and there is a lot to experience. My guild is pretty awesome - we came into Wildstar together, and maybe that is where the difference will lay for me. We have fun questing together, helping each other out with bounties, quest chains, dungeons, adventures, ship hands, housing and plots.
Are these the people that just blow through the quests, not even reading them, not even taking time to enjoy what it is they are doing? The same people that need that desire to constantly feel like they are being rewarded and "getting somewhere"?
The ultimate consumer, never satisfied, never content, never living in the moment and never happy.
For the life of me, I also don't understand this rush to end game mentality. Where did the genre go wrong where suddenly the game starts at endgame. WTF happened to this genre? Developers spend tens of millions of dollars to develop a game with beautiful worlds, story lines, puzzles etc., and everyone rushes to cap in days. Why not just play an FPS if that's all you're interested in? It's moronic but it has become the norm. It's ridiculous to say the least. Yet they call themselves "hardcore." Pfffttt ~
It's hard to consider its rushing to endgame when it only takes 25-75 hours to go level 1-50. I had a number of guildmates that did not quest and just grouped killing mobs. It took them 25 hours to hit max. Others only did quests and reached max level in 35 or so hours. I was one of the slowest doing every single quest for the rep and it took me just under 60 hours played. Even if it takes someone twice as long as me ( which I have a hard time believing) I would not call that rushing to endgame. If one cannot play 2-4 days played on one character over a month it is hard to say they are actually playing the game.
Also keep in mind many people have been playing Wildstar since April and May, 2013 and a lot more of the new beta players since December. They have done every quest in the game many many times.
Now I do agree that leveling time is far to short. But one cannot blame the devs for that. People scream and cry that the ultra short leveling time is too tough for them. The bottomline is a very large percentage of players simply do not have the attention span, maturity or patience to play a MMO. They want everything handed to them and the people who actually play MMOs more than just posting on forums are the ones who actually have to play the game with the changes mandated by the pretend players.
But, since we are stuck with an ultra fast leveling system I don't understand the need to call other players names and attack them because they play the game and therefore level up at a reasonable rate.
Carbine's decision to focus end game on just hardcore content will break it in time. Only aprox 2% of MMMOs community are hardcore players, so when everyone reachs maximum level how many people will continue playing? I am not saying they should stop it, but create a level of difficult for normal / casual gamers with rewards not so far from the hardcore content. I dont play WS for many reasons, but I would like this game to succed.
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Every time I see someone quitting because the game is too hard, I realise how much we needed a game like Wildstar in the mmo landscape.
There are 2 other million games that will give up on their principles and become easier and easier every passing month to catter to casuals and let them "win". You can choose and play any of those. But Wildstar is something else, and I hope it won't change.
Long live Wildstar.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
Im coming from FFXIV: ARR. In FFXIV: ARR ppl stays until kill to boss or complete dungeon,raid etc. At least group disbands after few tries and when most ppl agreed. But in Wildstar ppl leaves or disband after first try or disbands.
Unpatient and many young ppl plays Wildstar ?! I think yes..
What you wrote is along the lines of my point regarding community and the game. I played FFXIV myself, tanked to cap and pushed through the difficulty because the community were willing to work together. Now though FFXIV is a semi-casual players dream boat, so much stuff to do and 3 faction pvp coming plus ninja.
Adventures and Dungeons were never this hard btw in beta they got buffed hard because of the hardcore player base complaining.
Im not complaining about the difficulty, Im looking at the mismatch between the community and the difficulty carbine are attempting to funnel the player base through.
Because of personal projects, familiar compromises and work I've been demoted to casual - i play an average of of 15-20h a week. Point is I still enjoy challenging content, considering myself a competent player. I'm consistent with my life-schedule and I know that I'll not be one of the first to complete the raids or get the best shinnies. No problems for me, if the pros get there in 4 weeks, I'll be there in 2-3 months. It will cost me more time to get to the milestone but I'll eventually hit it. Having a guild and some pals (some of them already knew, others I've made in-game, I like to be social and rp) helps. After all, this was advertized as a game with a strong social component.
I say this because the point of this discussion is not about Hardcore VS Casual, no. This is about Instant-Gratification VS Keep-The-Value-Of-The-Rewards. In this sense, the market is already saturated with products catering to the former. It makes perfect sense to me that we've got an specialized, niche product in the market that caters to the latter.
Not gonna conceal that the attitude of the entitled crowd asking for easy-rewards pisses me off immensely. The devs of this game were crystalline with regards to the kind of game they were creating. To pretend to change this game to turn it into another instant-gratification crapfest where the mobs are pinata bags and where socialing and guilds just don't matter is shameless and entitled ad nausea. It is a fucking obscenity.
By the way, putting that line in the title about "lack of stuff at cap" is intellectual dishonesty at its finest. There's no themepark in the market with the amount of content and features as WS, no one comes even close.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
And all that stuff you listed IS available to everyone (as far as I know, I don't play WS). The difference is that YOU are asking for the RAIDING to be open to everyone when in your very own quote it says they are only for the hardcore 1%
You make zero sense.
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but again u have to remember that its only a month old. there r still thousands of players who havent hit end game yet. i was in headstart and im still only 26. im an altaholic. not everyone rushes to endgame. this is the best mmo to launch in quite sometime. maybe people r enjoying the ride this time. who knows when u will get another.
It has nothing to do with it other than being ironically funny.
The op wasn't talking about raiding difficulty, and many here aren't talking about raid difficulty. The game, as a whole, was designed to be more difficult than the typical modern mmo. However, carbine has been pretty clear that their vision for the game is one that focuses on end game raiding with a higher difficulty, but that's not the entirety of the game, jut the end game focus.
I haven't seen any reports about this game costing excessive millions to make, so they probably don't need millions of subs to keep it going. They designed a niche game, yet your entire argument revolves around the idea that there won't be enough people interested in a harder MMO to keep the game going.
There are a ton of former WoW players that left because of the reduction in difficulty, and blizzards attempt to make end game an all inclusive activity. There are plenty of people that want something more akin to vanilla WoW, which carbine has been pretty up front about providing that type of experience.
You keep using the word logic, I'm not so sure you understand what that means.
Logic would dictate that if a game like EVE, that fills an even smaller niche than WS does, can thrive, then there's no reason that a game catering to a larger niche can't.
But I understand your "logic" very well, you made it clear in an earlier post. You're the person that will complain to a dev that you pay a sub like everyone else and should be able to complete all the content for that very reason. That very little bit of information is all it takes to understand that you're exactly the sort of person to go into a game and expect it to cater to you because you pay a sub. I'm sure you'll deny it, but you've written exactly the same stuff people would write on the Rift forums when they would demand that trion give them a way to gain raid gear without having to raid.
It was exactly your kind of attitude that drove me away from Rift. I got sick of the self entitled, shitty attitudes that many people brought to the community and game, demanding that things be changed so they don't have to actually do the content the devs created yet be rewarded the same as those that did.
And yes, that is an incredibly self centered form of thinking.
Op could you explain alittle about all the other feature's of the game? I understand if you may not like crafting, housing or what ever. OR maybe you already have done and see it all already?
Just curious because with almost any MMORPG the most loudest complaints often just show one or 2 things these games offer often it's quest or combat, everything else hardly get's mentioned when people explain they are bored or feel the game needs more content.
But as said maybe you have done all of that or simply don't like those other feature's.
Indeed that's exactly how they designed it. And that's why six months from now they will be struggling to maintain solid sub numbers, if they keep this mentality. I see people claiming that WildStar doesn't need big sub numbers, 200K to 300K are enough they say. Well, these people should stop daydreaming because AAA MMO's like WS can't be sustained with such numbers. Not with the hardcores craving for more quality content every few months. Who is going to pay for this?
I am lucky to be in a very well organized PvE guild so i won't go through the OP's ordeal. I will do my vet runs, get my gold medals and see the raids. However, this does not blind fold me to not comprehend that in 2014 you can't release an ambitious theme park MMO for a niche market alone. Not when players / customers have numerous other options.
Random guy on the Internet proclaims what isn't sustainable with no means of showing evidence that its not.
How much did they spend on development? What is the minimum sub rate that the game requires in relation to the investment in initial and future development? How many subs do they need to cover bandwidth usage, which has actually gotten cheaper over the years?
What exactly is the evidence that its not possible, or even that the game will only sustain 200-300k subs.
I have not seen a single report that this game cost into the hundreds of millions like some recent releases, and it sure isn't receiving anywheres near the level of negative criticism that some recent releases have received.
By all indications this is the best received MMO to release in years.
PS, how many other MMO's in the last few years actually had to open new servers when the game launched? FF14:ARR is the only one I can think of and that game doing great; after being closed down and redeveloped. Yet some of you think this one wont work out?
This begs to question why are there do many folks at end game three weeks in? Bro.They harbor the exact same mentality that a lot of developers do.
They're doing the equivalent of a lemming parade off a cliff. The first dev goes over and dies, and then the next dev thinks they'll survive doing the exact same thing.
One developer spends excessive amounts of money turning a popular IP into an MMO with a focus on single player narrative, no real endgame, a lack of polish, and an attempt to cater to as many people as possible; that's ToR and it failed. Then along comes ESO, and developers full of hubris who refused to think that they would end up laying at the bottom of the cliff with the guys before them even though they're doing the exact same thing.
The saying history repeats itself exists for a reason, because we generally aren't capable of learning from the past. This genre is a perfect example.
Blizzard actually looked at what people liked and disliked about EQ and developed around that, resulting in a runaway hit. Carbine did the exact same thing, basing they're development around what people liked and disliked about WoW; with a focus on challenging content which WoW offered at its peak.
Seanmcad got blasted in another thread when he said that most people are morons, but he was right. Most people aren't capable of learning from the past, and in my opinion that's a defining trait of the moronic.
I'm not playing Wildstar but I find it hard to believe that if there is difficult max level content, that it will stay that way. Every MMO I've played in the last several years that shipped with difficult content has been nerfed.
RIFT - On release, the expert dungeons, particularly the Tier 2s, were extremely difficult. The devs said this was intended. Sure enough, about 6 months after release, they added a group finder and severely nerfed the difficulty of all expert dungeons to the point anyone could do them.
SW:TOR - Explosive Conflict (raid) and Lost Island (4-man) added after release and were very difficult, both ended up being nerfed.
These are just two prominent examples from games I've played in the last few years, and I know there are more examples.
This is a theme park mmo, I expected it to be this way, so what's the big deal OP? WS will be know different than the others mmo's that have come before it, but definitely <imo> going to be a niche community game.
I believe theme park mmo's have finally hit burn out with most of the gaming community now. All we got now is mmo's trying to reinvent the hamster wheel in their game that WoW made popular.
Developers should be looking back at what made games like Asherons Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Shadowbane, EQ, SWG and UO very popular and not follow WoW as a Catalyst, cause all you will get is another WoW with a different skin.
I think EQN, Black Desert, SC, ArcheAge and Repop are onto something, guess we will soon find out. What we are seeing now is a lot of games trying to incorporate the mine craft formula in their mmo's where it's the journey and not about the end game. We already have hundreds of them games already, take your pick.
Agree
Plus if any1 knows a mmo in the west having more than 500k subs can he pls point it? Rift & TERA are F2P, GW2 B2P, SWTOR out of 1.5m overall only 300-350k are subbed, EvE has 400-450k most of them double & triple accounts and ESO sinked already. So except WoW, maybe only FFA has >500k subs.
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Exactly!
I'm willing to bet that these posters hailing "hardcore" would be weeping if the path to cap was as "hardcore" as the end game content. I, myself, enjoy and thrive on a game being difficult. But I like my difficulty to be in the journey as well as at end game. I say bring back a death penalty resulting in XP and steep armor damage fees. I say make the leveling process increase gradually with every level gained. There used to be a time when "dinging" a level meant something. Nowadays players "ding" up to ten times or more each day, and sometimes dozens of levels. Where is the fun in that? Getting to cap should be the accomplishment, not something to endure through in 3 weeks just to face end game content. Obtaining the best gear should only be through crafting and very difficult dungeon runs. So if you don't cut by earning it through difficult dungeon runs then you better farm heavily and save up to buy your top end gear from hard working crafters or you don't get the best gear. I can keep going but I think you get my drift. Being "hardcore" is not getting to cap in 3 weeks and doing "hard mode" raid dungeons. Being "hardcore" mean enduring a difficult journey and getting to cap.
Just putting things in perspective.
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
I don't understand how people have hit max level by now and become bored.
You clearly are the locust horde bunch that must be constantly consuming things.
I starting at head start, and have a level 26 on Dominion and 22 on Exile and have been playing at least 15-20 hours a week.
The game is massive and there is a lot to experience. My guild is pretty awesome - we came into Wildstar together, and maybe that is where the difference will lay for me. We have fun questing together, helping each other out with bounties, quest chains, dungeons, adventures, ship hands, housing and plots.
Are these the people that just blow through the quests, not even reading them, not even taking time to enjoy what it is they are doing? The same people that need that desire to constantly feel like they are being rewarded and "getting somewhere"?
The ultimate consumer, never satisfied, never content, never living in the moment and never happy.
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
On top of both of those games attempting to cater to a larger audience by reducing difficulty and making content more accessible to the majority, they share another common feature, they both ended up F2P. Go figure.
I stopped playing rift for the same reason is stopped playing WoW, they kept making the game easier, and that's the same reason all the people I played those games with stopped as well.
^This. people on this site and most forums talk a big game about how they are hardcore, WoW is easy etc etc, yet hardcore raiders are a very very small portion of the MMO landscape. Building your game to cater to those people, and those people alone, is not a good game design choice if you want a lot of subs. The trick is finding a good balance similer to WoW Wotlk (and WoD, it seems), to where there is ample "casual" group content, but tons of hardcore stuff as well. I am not calling for the game to be nerfed what so ever, just dont expect many subs to stick around.
And for what its worth, Wildstar has the most endgame content of any themepark at launch, ever, and that includes WoW.
For the life of me, I also don't understand this rush to end game mentality. Where did the genre go wrong where suddenly the game starts at endgame. WTF happened to this genre? Developers spend tens of millions of dollars to develop a game with beautiful worlds, story lines, puzzles etc., and everyone rushes to cap in days. Why not just play an FPS if that's all you're interested in? It's moronic but it has become the norm. It's ridiculous to say the least. Yet they call themselves "hardcore." Pfffttt ~
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
It's hard to consider its rushing to endgame when it only takes 25-75 hours to go level 1-50. I had a number of guildmates that did not quest and just grouped killing mobs. It took them 25 hours to hit max. Others only did quests and reached max level in 35 or so hours. I was one of the slowest doing every single quest for the rep and it took me just under 60 hours played. Even if it takes someone twice as long as me ( which I have a hard time believing) I would not call that rushing to endgame. If one cannot play 2-4 days played on one character over a month it is hard to say they are actually playing the game.
Also keep in mind many people have been playing Wildstar since April and May, 2013 and a lot more of the new beta players since December. They have done every quest in the game many many times.
Now I do agree that leveling time is far to short. But one cannot blame the devs for that. People scream and cry that the ultra short leveling time is too tough for them. The bottomline is a very large percentage of players simply do not have the attention span, maturity or patience to play a MMO. They want everything handed to them and the people who actually play MMOs more than just posting on forums are the ones who actually have to play the game with the changes mandated by the pretend players.
But, since we are stuck with an ultra fast leveling system I don't understand the need to call other players names and attack them because they play the game and therefore level up at a reasonable rate.