Originally posted by Herzy Subconsciously I always wanted action combat in my MMOs. If I live or die should depend on my skill as a player of avoiding damage and not the RNG. There's still an element of RNG but dying doesn't feel cheap anymore.The animations improve because of this too. I raise my shield: damage is blocked, etc. Also, nothing irks me more than homing projectiles.
Homing Missiles is one of the few complaints I have with tab targeting
That's one of the best points of GW2 combat. You can target, but ranged attacks aren't homing and can be dodged.
While that is good and I liked it (for awhile) in GW2, it is still player skill, not character skill. If a tab target MMO could implement the dodge skill for missiles as well as melee, there would not be a problem. For some reason, they do not
And I don't see any real reason why they couldn't. Lots of tab target abilities have to be used at the right time and have a very short "up" time or duration. Not sure why dodge/parry/block couldn't be an active part from your skill bar rather than a stat on your gear.
Originally posted by Herzy Subconsciously I always wanted action combat in my MMOs. If I live or die should depend on my skill as a player of avoiding damage and not the RNG. There's still an element of RNG but dying doesn't feel cheap anymore.The animations improve because of this too. I raise my shield: damage is blocked, etc. Also, nothing irks me more than homing projectiles.
Homing Missiles is one of the few complaints I have with tab targeting
That's one of the best points of GW2 combat. You can target, but ranged attacks aren't homing and can be dodged.
While that is good and I liked it (for awhile) in GW2, it is still player skill, not character skill. If a tab target MMO could implement the dodge skill for missiles as well as melee, there would not be a problem. For some reason, they do not
And I don't see any real reason why they couldn't. Lots of tab target abilities have to be used at the right time and have a very short "up" time or duration. Not sure why dodge/parry/block couldn't be an active part from your skill bar rather than a stat on your gear.
That crosses the line for me, making my own reaction the deciding factor, not my character. If my double-tab dodge does not register, my lack of skill killed my character. I find blocking counter-productive with the animations used today. In GW2, with my Ranger, there was a "chain melee skill" that I had trouble breaking into in order to dodge.
It is a weird thing, really. I am quite diametrically opposed in this regard. The most fun class I ever played was an EQ Bard. That involved A LOT of player input, twisting songs. However, If I missed a keystroke, or my Bard "hit a bad note", people rarely died because of my inability.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
That crosses the line for me, making my own reaction the deciding factor, not my character. If my double-tab dodge does not register, my lack of skill killed my character. I find blocking counter-productive with the animations used today. In GW2, with my Ranger, there was a "chain melee skill" that I had trouble breaking into in order to dodge.
It is a weird thing, really. I am quite diametrically opposed in this regard. The most fun class I ever played was an EQ Bard. That involved A LOT of player input, twisting songs. However, If I missed a keystroke, or my Bard "hit a bad note", people rarely died because of my inability.
Good luck explaining that RPGs are supposed to be about your character, that roleplaying isn't about sex, and that the "fourth wall" isn't about wallhacking, to kids nowadays...
Twitch combat is always my preference, but usually the games that do, everything else in the game sucks (looking at you TERA).
So I don't mind playing tab-targeting, it isn't my first choice though.
Action combat involves movement and cross-hair targetting, in games such as WS, ESO, TERA etc. However, it usually involves a number of melee classes and often involves telegraphing. It is generally more static than FPS with dodges only required when a big flashing warning tells you. It also usually involves a rotation based on key-assigned skills.
We've all played FPS/ TPS games and I think there is quite a clear difference in the fluidity of the combat. Where there are key-assigned skills they tend to be support and reactionary rather than a clear rotation. Mobs generally have better AI and the targeting is more involved than swinging in their general vicinity. There is usually some interaction with the environment which can be used as cover.
For obvious reasons FPS is much harder to incorporate into an mmo which is why we have seen few examples and only recently.
I would not put WS and ESO in the action combat section. They're both hybrid for a variety of reasons. No manual defenses (i.e. no right click to block attacks or iframe dodges). Both have a tab targeting system in the background that allow you to literally tab between enemies. And the only game that really uses telegraphing extensively is Wildstar and it's hideous and requires no skill at all. GW2 is also clearly a hybrid. They may have actiony elements, but they are not true action combat.
True action combat games like TERA and Vindictus have manual player controlled defenses instead of relying on gear stats. Aiming actually matters because there is literally no way to tab target lock onto a target (and you can easily miss because skills don't have a massive AoE range like in Wildstar but often much smaller, more realistic hitboxes). Mobs for the most part don't have big red circles showing you where they will hit - instead you have to watch their animations to figure out the tells and where the skill will hit so you can find a safe spot/learn proper timing to dodge/block. This also goes for other players - there are no mods telling you what skills they are casting or what class they are - you have to watch their animations to figure out who they are and what they're doing. Combat involves a wide variety of skills and not just a 6 skill "limited action set" and is often fast paced, requiring skillful usage of combos, the ability to cancel skills mid animation and change course instead of relying on a single rotation due to the changing nature of combat, and much more. In short action combat is more based on player skill and is much more active, putting the outcome in the hands of the player and not the computer.
Please tell me what happens if you right click in ESO.. because in my book that is called "to block", and if you ask me ESO has a full action combat system.
ESO's combat auto locks onto the player you are highlighting. You can even lock onto a target and then move around and watch the projectile fly over your shoulder. There's zero aiming required and the dodge doesn't have iframes. It's just a method to move you out of the way faster. ESO is a hybrid.
Also you should go check the game settings. There's a setting allowing you to tab through enemy targets. The targeting reticule is just for show.
Originally posted by Herzy Subconsciously I always wanted action combat in my MMOs. If I live or die should depend on my skill as a player of avoiding damage and not the RNG. There's still an element of RNG but dying doesn't feel cheap anymore.The animations improve because of this too. I raise my shield: damage is blocked, etc. Also, nothing irks me more than homing projectiles.
Homing Missiles is one of the few complaints I have with tab targeting
That's one of the best points of GW2 combat. You can target, but ranged attacks aren't homing and can be dodged.
While that is good and I liked it (for awhile) in GW2, it is still player skill, not character skill. If a tab target MMO could implement the dodge skill for missiles as well as melee, there would not be a problem. For some reason, they do not
That's exactly what GW2 is though. It's a tab target game with iframe dodging.
Twitch combat is always my preference, but usually the games that do, everything else in the game sucks (looking at you TERA).
So I don't mind playing tab-targeting, it isn't my first choice though.
Action combat involves movement and cross-hair targetting, in games such as WS, ESO, TERA etc. However, it usually involves a number of melee classes and often involves telegraphing. It is generally more static than FPS with dodges only required when a big flashing warning tells you. It also usually involves a rotation based on key-assigned skills.
We've all played FPS/ TPS games and I think there is quite a clear difference in the fluidity of the combat. Where there are key-assigned skills they tend to be support and reactionary rather than a clear rotation. Mobs generally have better AI and the targeting is more involved than swinging in their general vicinity. There is usually some interaction with the environment which can be used as cover.
For obvious reasons FPS is much harder to incorporate into an mmo which is why we have seen few examples and only recently.
I would not put WS and ESO in the action combat section. They're both hybrid for a variety of reasons. No manual defenses (i.e. no right click to block attacks or iframe dodges). Both have a tab targeting system in the background that allow you to literally tab between enemies. And the only game that really uses telegraphing extensively is Wildstar and it's hideous and requires no skill at all. GW2 is also clearly a hybrid. They may have actiony elements, but they are not true action combat.
True action combat games like TERA and Vindictus have manual player controlled defenses instead of relying on gear stats. Aiming actually matters because there is literally no way to tab target lock onto a target (and you can easily miss because skills don't have a massive AoE range like in Wildstar but often much smaller, more realistic hitboxes). Mobs for the most part don't have big red circles showing you where they will hit - instead you have to watch their animations to figure out the tells and where the skill will hit so you can find a safe spot/learn proper timing to dodge/block. This also goes for other players - there are no mods telling you what skills they are casting or what class they are - you have to watch their animations to figure out who they are and what they're doing. Combat involves a wide variety of skills and not just a 6 skill "limited action set" and is often fast paced, requiring skillful usage of combos, the ability to cancel skills mid animation and change course instead of relying on a single rotation due to the changing nature of combat, and much more. In short action combat is more based on player skill and is much more active, putting the outcome in the hands of the player and not the computer.
Please tell me what happens if you right click in ESO.. because in my book that is called "to block", and if you ask me ESO has a full action combat system.
ESO's combat auto locks onto the player you are highlighting. You can even lock onto a target and then move around and watch the projectile fly over your shoulder. There's zero aiming required and the dodge doesn't have iframes. It's just a method to move you out of the way faster. ESO is a hybrid.
Also you should go check the game settings. There's a setting allowing you to tab through enemy targets. The targeting reticule is just for show.
Yeah, you are correct on this. ESO is a hybrid, I was mistaken in calling it action.
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And I don't see any real reason why they couldn't. Lots of tab target abilities have to be used at the right time and have a very short "up" time or duration. Not sure why dodge/parry/block couldn't be an active part from your skill bar rather than a stat on your gear.
It is a weird thing, really. I am quite diametrically opposed in this regard. The most fun class I ever played was an EQ Bard. That involved A LOT of player input, twisting songs. However, If I missed a keystroke, or my Bard "hit a bad note", people rarely died because of my inability.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Good luck explaining that RPGs are supposed to be about your character, that roleplaying isn't about sex, and that the "fourth wall" isn't about wallhacking, to kids nowadays...
ESO's combat auto locks onto the player you are highlighting. You can even lock onto a target and then move around and watch the projectile fly over your shoulder. There's zero aiming required and the dodge doesn't have iframes. It's just a method to move you out of the way faster. ESO is a hybrid.
Also you should go check the game settings. There's a setting allowing you to tab through enemy targets. The targeting reticule is just for show.
That's exactly what GW2 is though. It's a tab target game with iframe dodging.
Yeah, you are correct on this. ESO is a hybrid, I was mistaken in calling it action.