A full size MMO - In what aspect? Seriously, most MMOs are pretty good "size". The problem is that due to the speed in which we consume content, the game seems smaller.
Slower leveling: Thanks, but no thanks. While I'll agree that leveling does need to be slowed down, it doesn't need to be at a crawl. I don't want to spend Vanilla EQ time trying to get through a "hell level", but I don't want to hit 85 in 2-weekends.
Harder, challenging game: Yes please. Give me my Dark Souls type of difficulty!! Also give me my group content. If I wanted to solo 1 to cap, I'd play a single player console game.
Life inside the world: Judging by what you said in the second part of your statement, I assume you meant you want the world to feel alive. For this, I can agree. I think things such as Storybricks and smarter AI can accomplish this.
Open World: Yes and no. While I want the open world to be without zoning/instances, I have absolutely no issue with Dungeons and Raids as instances.
However, all of these are a moot point if the game can't get me in anyways. If my character is the same as everyone else, then the game isn't for me. I want customization, from the color of my shoes to the types of abilities I have.
I pretty much agree. However..
Slower leveling: I've yet to play an MMO with too slow leveling. I have played many with too fast.
Also, emphasize crafting a lot. Make lots of specializations and branches, so that not everyone can craft everything. Player driven economy is one of the most important features in these games.
Vanilla EQ was pretty slow. Then you hit your "hell" levels where it took hours to get a yellow bub of xp. Now, it isn't that tough to level. It has been substantially sped up. That being said, I'll have to add on to your comment: No matter how slow the leveling is, someone will get cap in a day.
Crafting can be a big positive for me, but if and ONLY if the crafting is engaging. WOW crafting is not engaging. EQ2 or FFXIV crafting is.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Yep tam I agree, this is the price that we all pay in loss of game diversity when a game tries to be all things to all men. Niche = specialisation = being able to find a game that meets your exact needs.
Personally I play 3 MMO just now (4 if you include wow private) and I love them all because they all offer different things, eso - great storytelling and enjoyable crafting and exploration, gw2 great gfx, pvp and pve with a nicw casual friendly feel and Lotr because I love the book ).
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
We all have our differences in several aspects that I consider small potato's. But were all here day after day, year after year WAITING for the same thing :
- A full size mmo.
- Slower leveling, that a community can be built.
- Harder challenging game that involves some cooperation with others now and then.
- A life inside a game world, where everything isn't crammed together every five feet.
- Open world without zoning ( this has been done many times in the past, what had changed ).
For the true mmo player we ALL want the same thing.......A real mmo, but never get it !
Speak for yourself and please do not include me in the "we".
I don't want slow leveling or care much about a community.
I am playing games, and do not want "life" inside a game world.
And please do more instanced games. Open world without zoning? Don't tell me I need to slowly travel the land and camp with other people. I will pass.
Comming from a guy with "Posts: 19982"
Somehow i think u like community :P
Community in talking about games ..... sure.
"Community" when I am hacking & slashing in a dungeon? no thanks!
We all have our differences in several aspects that I consider small potato's. But were all here day after day, year after year WAITING for the same thing :
- A full size mmo.
- Slower leveling, that a community can be built.
- Harder challenging game that involves some cooperation with others now and then.
- A life inside a game world, where everything isn't crammed together every five feet.
- Open world without zoning ( this has been done many times in the past, what had changed ).
etc
For the true mmo player we ALL want the same thing.......A real mmo, but never get it !
Well, I've been on these forums for years and from what I've seen:
A full size mmo.
Subjective, what does that really mean? I've seen players complain about having to run places and having to pvp, pve, do raids, craft and any number of things.
- Slower leveling, that a community can be built.
I've seen a lot of people say that they don't want to spend time leveling and want to get to the "fun stuff" fast. Of course what is the fun stuff? see above.
- Harder challenging game that involves some cooperation with others now and then.
I've seen people (myself included) complain about bad players, elitist players, "casual players" and every other type of player in between. How can we have cooperation when we are playing alongside people with different goals and desires? And some people play for the social aspect (which of course seems to belie the aforementioned complaints about community) and aren't interested in "challenge". I can't tell you how many times someone has made a post saying "why don't you like 'x' it gets the blood pumping and adrenaline moving!!!!" They might as well have placed a "roaaarrrrr" at the end of their statement. Not everyone wants hard or challenge or blood pumping or adrenaline fixes.
- A life inside a game world, where everything isn't crammed together every five feet.
Then people would complain that they can't find players or that they have to travel too much. And some people will say "I play games so as to avoid 'real life'.
- Open world without zoning ( this has been done many times in the past, what had changed ).
Some people don't want open world as they don't want to travel. As far as the zoning, it has been said by quite a few people that concessions need to be made with larger areas and "good graphics". A few posters no this forum who seem to work in the field have time and time again posted the difficulties of balancing the two.
So "sure" while "I' might want the things you have mentioned it is clear that you haven't really paid attention to what the general consensus is. Which is to say; "no" we all don't want the same things.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
What about the people who love open world PvP vs. people who do not? Roleplayers?
- A full size mmo. Can't argue there. The bigger the better I guess.
- Slower leveling, that a community can be built. What do you consider "too" fast? There will always be people who will blow through stuff faster than others.
- Harder challenging game that involves some cooperation with others now and then. Again, different people will get through things at different speeds. I really don't like this kind of stuff because when the game gets older, or people leave a lower level zone it just makes it harder for the people who fall behind.
- A life inside a game world, where everything isn't crammed together every five feet. I don't know. Depends on what you mean by "everything". if there is alot going on (at least for me) the world seems more immersive. Just makes it feel more alive.
- Open world without zoning ( this has been done many times in the past, what had changed ). FF: ARR has zones and it seems plenty of people still love it.
+1
All gamers don't want the same thing. Even a single gamers needs change over time.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I am looking for an mmo about sitting in a Ferrari in front of a Japanese girls school and using my xray vision powers to examine the goings on within.
We need evey game to be designed for a niche simply put, it's the only way a product can meet our exact needs, and how games diversify and evolve. I don't want a packet of crisps that has all possible flavours mixed in thank you - that sounds shit!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I believe there are primarily 2 types of MMO players. New school....OW PVP...and old school...NO PVP. Since devs are trying to appease both sides, there WONT be a good true MMO, you simply cannot make them both mesh together.
Originally posted by bentrim I believe there are primarily 2 types of MMO players. New school....WOW/NO PVP...and Old school...REAL PVP. Since devs are trying to appease both sides, there WONT be a good true MMO, you simply cannot make them both mesh together.
Originally posted by bentrim I believe there are primarily 2 types of MMO players. New school....WOW/NO PVP...and Old school...REAL PVP. Since devs are trying to appease both sides, there WONT be a good true MMO, you simply cannot make them both mesh together.
Fixed.
I always find it funny when people call their favorite side "Old School". :P
Some of you may actually recall Ultima Online, and how it got split into two shards because such a great majority of players hated the full PvP system. And those players have been playing MMO's for just as long as those you label "old school".
Might as well add the US version of Lineage as well, where PKing got punished with such severe penalties that it eventually simply wasn't worth it. (Once they added the patch where full lawful characters could never drop equipment, while everyone else could lose their incredibly expensive gear upon dying it was a deathblow for the PKing in that game). And it wasn't something that the devs just decided to add one day - it was based on how many people hated getting ganked (the carebears if you will )
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Originally posted by bentrim I believe there are primarily 2 types of MMO players. New school....WOW/NO PVP...and Old school...REAL PVP. Since devs are trying to appease both sides, there WONT be a good true MMO, you simply cannot make them both mesh together.
Fixed.
I always find it funny when people call their favorite side "Old School". :P
Some of you may actually recall Ultima Online, and how it got split into two shards because such a great majority of players hated the full PvP system. And those players have been playing MMO's for just as long as those you label "old school".
I didn't label anyone, I just corrected a mistype of the OP. We all know real PvP happened back in the UO days and is returning in a game called Life is Feudal. But if you consider World of Warcraft PvP Real Pvp with no consequences to dying...*Can't type due to laughter*...
Originally posted by KaitarBesh The OP is now finding out the majority of MMO players are actually satisfied with the garbage these companies keep pumping out. And that's exactly why they keep pumping out garbage. It's been a long time since I've played an MMO that I actually loved enough to want to call it my permanent home. Most these days (Archeage included) are just circus-fest mini-games for the ADHD generation.
Pretty much this. In short, companies are still pumping out WoW clones.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Most so called MMO gamers want WoW - which has been a big reason the genre is so ruined from what is was pre WoW ultima, anarchy online, swg to name just 3 of the best MMOs of their generation.
It is a sad state for MMOs but the money is what matters to most companies and they all want to emulate WoW so we just get rubbish themepark after rubbish themepark.
Our hopes can only be with a indie developer as the AAA companies clearly do not want to cater for those of us who actually want challenge and real community because we simply are not the majority.
because thats actually very far from the truth? 1. almost every player wants something at least slightly different, 2. on the forums (any forums) posting players a only a small fraction of the mmorpg community.
for the record, people do NOT want slower leveling. otherwise they wouldn't run through the story games offer to be the first at max level.... each addon and release again and again.
then they usualy go "uhhhh how boring, this game has no content... blablablaaaaa"
shocking news for you kids: most games actually DO have content. people just tend to go the easiest way and basically SKIP all that content. not the devs fault.
ps: games like ESO, WoW, Wildstar and actually Archage too offer a HUGE gaming world and conent in it.
what i think the main prob with mmos is?
people complaining too much and not playing too little, "i want this, i want that, i want pink unicorns and a kiss on my ass!"
maybe just PLAY the games we have and stop bitching about everything. makes gaming much more fun, believe me.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Face it, "we" are no longer the target audience, even though most of "us" are willing to actually pay for our games. "We" just do not have the numbers to make developers think, "WoW-like money."
So, the genre changed into fast paced combat simulators with almost no downtime between slugfests, rare failures (dieing), little to no community activities, and solo everything, including "bosses." And it is making mega-millions.
Yeah, "we" know who "we" are, and you are correct, most of "us" are willing to pay for our games, and I dare say pay more than our fair share, like you said, "we" are definitely not "all" by any stretch and our numbers and preferences are scattered a bit to thin for anyone but indie devs to be interested in.
So we'll likely continue to get the types of MMO's you've described that "they" enjoy and we'll have to take solace in the few titles that release that are close to our liking.
Funny thing about "them", they don't seem to really enjoy the games "they" play, well, not for any great length of time, and it doesn't bother "them.". All just fun to "them".
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It is a sad state for MMOs but the money is what matters to most companies and they all want to emulate WoW so we just get rubbish themepark after rubbish themepark.
Our hopes can only be with a indie developer as the AAA companies clearly do not want to cater for those of us who actually want challenge and real community because we simply are not the majority.
Sad is just a matter of perspective and who are "we"?
I certainly don't play games for the community.
And .. who still want to emulate wow? I thought most companies have moved on and make other types of online games (like MOBA, or instanced pvp games, or SP games with some MMO features) now.
Originally posted by Benedikt almost every player wants something at least slightly different
I think you can put everyone into two categories:
(1) The Wow crowd who likes soloable gameplay, and fast and fairly care-free leveling.
(2) The Pre-Wow crowd who likes social grouping, and a lengthy leveling experience.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I allways find it sad when you see people implicitly arguing for generalisation and the suppression of innovation and anything that they don't like without even realising it, but then again historically the elder selfish man throughout time in The human tribe has allways suppresses the young innovators in the tribe to maintain power, will they see this? They cannot, they must not!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
We all have our differences in several aspects that I consider small potato's. But were all here day after day, year after year WAITING for the same thing :
- A full size mmo.
- Slower leveling, that a community can be built.
- Harder challenging game that involves some cooperation with others now and then.
- A life inside a game world, where everything isn't crammed together every five feet.
- Open world without zoning ( this has been done many times in the past, what had changed ).
In my years of being here I consider myself an expert at the types of people that post here. We have :
1) The Power posters - The ones that have been here for years. They play every mmo that comes out. Wishing for that perfect mmo that will keep there attention. They hype the new and destroy anyone that post negative....But yet, they are on to the next 30 days later. ( I can't blame them in a way )
2) The gamers - MMOs have changed into just games with others on line. Gamer types are happy with the industry. They don't mind mmos that last only 30 days. They tend to just solo, and use the dungeon finder every so often just for fast amusement.
3) Free players - This explains it self. What better way for that 5 year old, collage kids with no money, or un employed to play a game for free than an mmo.
BUT :
For the true mmo player we ALL want the same thing.......A real mmo, but never get it !
You can have all those things but if you consider things like Non-Consensual PvP, Slow-Methodical-boring tab target combat, Generic classes and Raid Centric Endgame small potatoes then you don't really understand what I want out of an MMO. While all the things you mentioned are important, add any of these things that I mentioned and ain't no way in hell would I ever play it.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Comments
Vanilla EQ was pretty slow. Then you hit your "hell" levels where it took hours to get a yellow bub of xp. Now, it isn't that tough to level. It has been substantially sped up. That being said, I'll have to add on to your comment: No matter how slow the leveling is, someone will get cap in a day.
Crafting can be a big positive for me, but if and ONLY if the crafting is engaging. WOW crafting is not engaging. EQ2 or FFXIV crafting is.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Personally I play 3 MMO just now (4 if you include wow private) and I love them all because they all offer different things, eso - great storytelling and enjoyable crafting and exploration, gw2 great gfx, pvp and pve with a nicw casual friendly feel and Lotr because I love the book
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Community in talking about games ..... sure.
"Community" when I am hacking & slashing in a dungeon? no thanks!
Well, I've been on these forums for years and from what I've seen:
A full size mmo.
Subjective, what does that really mean? I've seen players complain about having to run places and having to pvp, pve, do raids, craft and any number of things.
- Slower leveling, that a community can be built.
I've seen a lot of people say that they don't want to spend time leveling and want to get to the "fun stuff" fast. Of course what is the fun stuff? see above.
- Harder challenging game that involves some cooperation with others now and then.
I've seen people (myself included) complain about bad players, elitist players, "casual players" and every other type of player in between. How can we have cooperation when we are playing alongside people with different goals and desires? And some people play for the social aspect (which of course seems to belie the aforementioned complaints about community) and aren't interested in "challenge". I can't tell you how many times someone has made a post saying "why don't you like 'x' it gets the blood pumping and adrenaline moving!!!!" They might as well have placed a "roaaarrrrr" at the end of their statement. Not everyone wants hard or challenge or blood pumping or adrenaline fixes.
- A life inside a game world, where everything isn't crammed together every five feet.
Then people would complain that they can't find players or that they have to travel too much. And some people will say "I play games so as to avoid 'real life'.
- Open world without zoning ( this has been done many times in the past, what had changed ).
Some people don't want open world as they don't want to travel. As far as the zoning, it has been said by quite a few people that concessions need to be made with larger areas and "good graphics". A few posters no this forum who seem to work in the field have time and time again posted the difficulties of balancing the two.
So "sure" while "I' might want the things you have mentioned it is clear that you haven't really paid attention to what the general consensus is. Which is to say; "no" we all don't want the same things.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
+1
All gamers don't want the same thing. Even a single gamers needs change over time.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
Fixed.
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
I always find it funny when people call their favorite side "Old School". :P
Some of you may actually recall Ultima Online, and how it got split into two shards because such a great majority of players hated the full PvP system. And those players have been playing MMO's for just as long as those you label "old school".
Might as well add the US version of Lineage as well, where PKing got punished with such severe penalties that it eventually simply wasn't worth it. (Once they added the patch where full lawful characters could never drop equipment, while everyone else could lose their incredibly expensive gear upon dying it was a deathblow for the PKing in that game). And it wasn't something that the devs just decided to add one day - it was based on how many people hated getting ganked (the carebears if you will
)
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
I'm with you. AO 2 needs to happen.
I didn't label anyone, I just corrected a mistype of the OP. We all know real PvP happened back in the UO days and is returning in a game called Life is Feudal. But if you consider World of Warcraft PvP Real Pvp with no consequences to dying...*Can't type due to laughter*...
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
Niche, and alot of players here base on their past experience, forgetting that they now have other commitments.
Dev wont waste time and resource to design something that only a handful will play.
Will you if its your company?
Business is always about money.
So look around and i believe that times have change, ever since WoW comes into the scene.
But it will change again, when Wow start to drops in subs.
The whole genre may turn into something we may not recognize few years down the road.....
Treasure your memories....
RIP Orc Choppa
Pretty much this. In short, companies are still pumping out WoW clones.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Most so called MMO gamers want WoW - which has been a big reason the genre is so ruined from what is was pre WoW ultima, anarchy online, swg to name just 3 of the best MMOs of their generation.
It is a sad state for MMOs but the money is what matters to most companies and they all want to emulate WoW so we just get rubbish themepark after rubbish themepark.
Our hopes can only be with a indie developer as the AAA companies clearly do not want to cater for those of us who actually want challenge and real community because we simply are not the majority.
for the record, people do NOT want slower leveling. otherwise they wouldn't run through the story games offer to be the first at max level.... each addon and release again and again.
then they usualy go "uhhhh how boring, this game has no content... blablablaaaaa"
shocking news for you kids: most games actually DO have content. people just tend to go the easiest way and basically SKIP all that content. not the devs fault.
ps: games like ESO, WoW, Wildstar and actually Archage too offer a HUGE gaming world and conent in it.
what i think the main prob with mmos is?
people complaining too much and not playing too little, "i want this, i want that, i want pink unicorns and a kiss on my ass!"
maybe just PLAY the games we have and stop bitching about everything. makes gaming much more fun, believe me.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Yeah, "we" know who "we" are, and you are correct, most of "us" are willing to pay for our games, and I dare say pay more than our fair share, like you said, "we" are definitely not "all" by any stretch and our numbers and preferences are scattered a bit to thin for anyone but indie devs to be interested in.
So we'll likely continue to get the types of MMO's you've described that "they" enjoy and we'll have to take solace in the few titles that release that are close to our liking.
Funny thing about "them", they don't seem to really enjoy the games "they" play, well, not for any great length of time, and it doesn't bother "them.". All just fun to "them".
Purists vs Tourists
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Which ones?
I see companies leaving MMOs and now make other types of online games.
Sad is just a matter of perspective and who are "we"?
I certainly don't play games for the community.
And .. who still want to emulate wow? I thought most companies have moved on and make other types of online games (like MOBA, or instanced pvp games, or SP games with some MMO features) now.
I think you can put everyone into two categories:
(1) The Wow crowd who likes soloable gameplay, and fast and fairly care-free leveling.
(2) The Pre-Wow crowd who likes social grouping, and a lengthy leveling experience.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
You can have all those things but if you consider things like Non-Consensual PvP, Slow-Methodical-boring tab target combat, Generic classes and Raid Centric Endgame small potatoes then you don't really understand what I want out of an MMO. While all the things you mentioned are important, add any of these things that I mentioned and ain't no way in hell would I ever play it.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!