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How do you define P2W?
Aeander
Member LegendaryPosts: 8,028
This is a topic of some controversy. The pay-to-win label is one with a lot of grey areas and has a lot of varied definitions. What is pay-to-win to one player may be perfectly acceptable to another.
So, how then, do you personally define it?
My personal definition:
pay-to-win -
Any game mechanic that can only be bought with real money or which cannot be easily obtained with in game means that gives one player a combat advantage of any size against players of their own level.
By this definition, I primarily exclude experience boosters and "buying levels" right off the bat, as these do not provide an advantage over other players of one's level. It merely gets one's level up faster, and this can actually be a disadvantage when trying to learn and gear characters.
I also exclude useful non-combat utilities like character slots, storage, and other such items. These provide an economic advantage of sorts, but they do not transition directly into gameplay.
Lastly, I've excluded currency conversion. I do not personally believe that money -> gold conversion is a form of pay-to-win simply because the advantages gained from it are designed to be readily obtained in game. The mileage here may vary depending on how gear tiers are designed, however. But overall, I feel like currency conversion is a praiseworthy mechanic that allows anyone to obtain cash shop items with effort, and I tend to applaud devs for including it.
Comments
When they sell something that only way to have is pay real money direct or indirect ,
and that thing raise the power of your character direct or indirect .
In bad case , the more you pay for that thing , the more stronger your are
In worst case , that MMO have PVP mode .
Worst case .
About "Win" in mean get over the challenge .
PVE : You pay to win again mob/boss (which normally impossible for F2P)
PVP : you pay to win again F2P player and pay more to win again player who pay less than you .
Wow, that's an awesome post, well thought out, and the lack of red makes it look like tron with no bad guys.
edit: erm, I scrolled down and there's 1 line of red. Please fix it.
I don't really define it ... since it usually don't affect me much.
However, it seems an interesting discussion. I will push back on YOUR definition.
First, what do you mean by "easily obtained"? Is one hour of grinding "easy" enough? Two hours? 100 hours?
Take marvel heroes as an example, the main selling items are costume (which is mostly cosmetic, so i will leave it out of the discussion), and heroes. Heroes certainly come with unique game mechanics ... and that some heroes are better than others in say raiding combat, or pvp combat.
So MH is p2w? But OTOH, it seems totally fair that you can finish the game with one hero, and there is little money can change (aside from looks) of the heroes you already own.
Anything other than cosmetics.
That's what the term has always meant until apologists of the F2P model started to redefine it.
P2W = nothing more than people crying out load about what others are willing and able to spent on the game and attempt to get them down on their own level.
People often cite that stat affecting items are P2W and cosmetics are not. But that is only because that is what matters to them and they simply do not want to shell out more money on it.
If you grind about 120 hours you get enough splinters to pick any character you want.
Just sayin.
I don't think there's any way to get extra bank space without paying, though. That sounds funny, but it's pretty important.
P2W = Pee two double you
Can't get any clearer than that.
As soon as you can buy something that enhance your character... Then you win the game or part of it (not winning over other players).
This is how far I'm willing to go:
Clothing / skin (cosmetic, no stats)
Pets (no combat) or (if combat) you have to have earned a combat pet of equal lvl and skill.
Mounts, same as above, and it scales to the mount speed of your skill or your fastest mount, meaning you earned a mount of equal skill and speed.
If the shop sells items to make life easier for mmo players who doesn't have the time to play mmo's, then I'm out.
I play games, part of these games is making your way through the world, earning experience, gold, and glory.
I don't want to "play" virtual vending machines.
I'm a gamer and I play games, not virtual vending machines.
The same definition has been the top definition at the urban dictionary since 2011:
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
Although it's not black and white and there is a sliding scale of "paytowinness" theirs works for me.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Character purchases have long been a gray area that was brought to popular light by League of Legends and other such MOBA titles. And to that, I don't really have a definitive answer.
On one hand, characters are made with the assumption (though obviously not the reality) of relative balance. Owning x character is not supposed to make you perform better than anyone else. You merely perform the roles that that character was intended to perform while failing in the areas that character was intended to be weak at, and do so no better than others who are playing that character. Your performance is meant to be comparable to the performance of everyone else, and this is the justification for the standard F2P MOBA business model.
On the other hand, owning more characters gives a player an advantage when it comes to forming team compositions on a competitive level. Even though they do not hold an explicit "better than you" direct combat advantage, they have more options for counterpicking opponents and they have more options for forming synergetic combinations with their teammates' picks.
Marvel Heroes is, if I'm not mistaken, primarily PvE. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I haven't actually played it. In a purely PvE game, arguments of team composition are largely irrelevant, and the model stands much more easily. In a PvP-centric genre like the MOBA genre, it's more debate-worthy.
See, you prove my point - people call P2W only on what matters to them and in case they are not willing or able to spent as much money as others.
In your MOBA example, you clearly get 2 groups who would have very different views on P2W.
And then ultimately with your Marvel Heroes comment - "In a purely PvE game, arguments of team composition are largely irrelevant", it should be obvious even to you that bias is the only qualifying factor.
You mean the apologist of the p2p + cash shop model?
yeh .. i am just pointing out that any def is not going to be very useful.
In the case of MH .. yes, it is primarily pve, and lots of people like me play solo. So if i do not buy a hero, all it means is that i don't enjoy the gameplay of that hero, and few will consider that p2w.
However, in the strict definition, it does give you a disadvantage if you want to measure the efficiency of farming certain items. Hence, there is really no good definition, except by looking at a game, and say "I like the way it works", or "I don't like the way it works".
Most people say they are ok with EXP pots as not being "P2W" because it "cut's time from leveling" so that creates a time vs. cash thing. So F2P have a chanve if they play longer. That is usually not the case until a little later. The EXP pots create a BAD gaming environment because NO ONE buys a few exp pots to pass regular questing. Most exp pots are signals to the player there are certain farmable regions, or dungeons that are better played with the exp on. It is more than "time savings" it is a huge alert : "This game will have grind pockets and about as in depth as a kiddie pool". I am ok with people leveling up faster, even though it makes for boring times. But I think people should look at the mechanics of these little things we just write off as "time savers" because you will see how they key with certain game play elements that signal "bad game" in general.
Other than that: costumes, mounts etc... all fluff. And I like that those are cashed out. Makes me open the wallet.
What is P2W: Armor and weapons.
2) Stat boosts and extra stat stacking enhancements.
3) Enhancings gear to +X levels.
This is where the genre splits. IF you have a game that has fail vs success rates and your constantly buying gems to get a chance to success upgrade...your in a horrible P2W casino machine.
Any thing that secures 100% is P2W.
This, like the EXP potions, are tied to game play as well. When PvE and PvP content can not be played without these enhanced armor pieces. It is P2W and should be avoided.
"Yeah, but what if F2P can get gems in farming"...
You need to do the MATH at this point. Take the formula of drop rate, average farming time, and success rates. So many people get into the illusion if the item drops with grind, its not P2W. I am ok with that, but if it takes mathematically 1 year of grinding to get 1 gem or 1 success rate...so +1 and you need +15 to get in...Your in a P2W title.
If it takes 1 day for one gem, and 15 days later you have 15 gems for +15, you are ok....It is all about progression. If MATHEMATICALLY the game is designed where cash gets the casher just a few months ahead, that is ok. But Years of "getting there" is not acceptable and instant unistall ware.
P2W = Anything that twists the panties of P4F gamers in a knot, encouraging them to spend money. P2W = anything that doesn’t encourage P4F gamers to play for free. P2W = anything that reminds P4F gamers that they can’t expect to play for free.
The question I want to ask, what are vanity cosmetic items (VCI)? VCI = items P4F gamers don’t want to buy. VCI = items only of interest to other groups other than P4F gamers.
I realize my view on the matter is very controversial, but I feel it must be presented. What group is most associated with vanity and cosmetic? I once read a post on this site asking why are cash shop items most often Big Pink Fluffy Cat type item? I have not been able to find that post again. I don’t need or want evidence that there are VCIs that are not Pink or Fluffy. My point is that VCIs are aimed at a particle group, ignoring all others (that make up the majority of P4F gamers). VCI are intended to be a free ticket for P4F gamers, placing the burden of paying for everyone's gaming at the feet of one or two groups of gamers.
P4F gamers should not expect or demand to be on a balanced or level playing field with paying customers.Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Giving out severe advantages for money.
Stuff like more bankspace and extra bags aren't really pay2 win since they don't actually affect the balance.Cosmetic stuff is fine, XP pots is a bit worse but still not really pay2win , but if anyone excpt people who pay needs an insane amount of grinding to reach the endgame it is still bad.
Access to well balanced races are fine but those races shouldn't be more powerful then any of the free ones.
As for chests with random stuff that is P2win if you can get good gear in them.
And games with PvP in needs to be way more careful then PvE games here. Balance is far more important in PvP.
Paying should not destroy the balance or the economy of the game.
P2W is very simple. It is any microtransaction item that can be purchased to give the player an advantage to achieve their goal. Everybody has different goals and play styles and defining P2W along the lines of what items are inappropriate is an extremely arrogant and naive way to define it.
This. Anything else is a reflection of personal bias or impact on one's own play style and consumer habits.
It's still very interesting to read how people feel about the topic, and to learn how drastically different some perspectives can be.
Even then. It would depend on if you could re sell the cosmetic items and then what you could do with the gold you made.