Originally posted by Dauntis Well, don't misunderstand me, I get the having no maps thing, I played EQ and vanilla WoW. But you could turn off the maps if you want the challenge, you don't have to inflict your desire for challenge on others to make things more difficult for yourself.
Beat me to it.
Yes, no one is forcing you to hit the M Key (usually the default for map).
So while others may like maps, they do not need to be taken out. It's far easier to NOT hit the M key for your immersion than to explain to those who DO like maps why they can't have it.
Because I want to be on an even playing field with all the other players, that's why. A better solution is for you to play a different game that has maps if that is your thing. That's pretty much all of them, so you won't have much trouble. There's is no need to inflict your desire for maps on all of us by insisting that every game has them.
IMHO "all of us" would be a very small percentage.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
It's not the same thing. If you have a game that has no map feature, you must design the world with terrain features that do a similar function. Like a fork in the road, or take the trail to the left, or follow the river until you hit the waterfall. Terrain features you consider to be walls are merely trying to redirect you. Quests must be written with more than a few words, you need a clue as to where to go "Find the trader along this path, ask him about Chiro... he will tell you a tale, but heed his words, he will direct you to where you wish to go."
The game becomes more meaningful if you have to actually look at the world for clues to where to go next. It encourages you to ask for directions... to become a guide. Merely turning off a map does none of these things. It's either all or nothing. You all must be under the same restrictions or it's nothing more than you wearing a blindfold when everyone else isn't.
That will never be the case though, as many will just look it up anyway, regardless of it being there in game to learn. Making such a bad motivator to base such an argument on. You want a false sense of everyone being there on your level, not unlike many people's false sense of security on p2w not being there with no cashshop. Life isn't fair, virtual life or otherwise.
Exploration, discovery, immersion, challenge, etc... are things that IMO should be approached from a personal motivation, not what the next guy is doing. As these are things of subjective approach, your idea of challenge or immersion are another guy's idea of bloat or annoyance. IN many cases on topics like this it's also a matter of RPG vs Sim or Survival gaming. By that I mean, RPG games aren't typically about challenge or realism as much as they are about character development and setting. What many seem to want are hardcore simulators or Survival games, not what makes a truly in-depth RPG.
To me things like Maps, realism, etc.. are not nearly as important as building my character, finding it's place in the grand scheme of things, while being immersed into the setting itself. Which really doesn't depend on how hard it is, or whether everything makes realistic literal sense. It depends on the background of the setting, as well as believability I can attain of my acted out persona being in it. To that end realism to me becomes boring or even annoying. It gets in the way of what I really care about accomplishing.
To me the epitome of great RPG mechanics in a video game is essentially Morrowind, Skyrim and to a lesser extent Oblivion. They ignore enough realism to let me focus on what matters most to me. Yet offer a believable enough ecosystem to feel as though it is a world you're in.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Absolutely. Worlds felt so much bigger and more real without the GPS map ruining it. And quests felt way more organic when they weren't tied to the leveling system.'
But while I think someday quest grinding might go away, I doubt many devs will get rid of the mini map.
There is no getting around the argument that someone's 'prefered' gameplay style will be impacted. From a pro- No Mapper, it Will be perceived that they're forcing it on Pro-Mappers. It is Subtractive rather than additive.
Pro No-Mappers( like myself) want that playstyle AND , maybe selfishly, want others to be on the same level of experience. It's up to the Devs to Dwarf-Up and decide. BUT at the same time, support the decision with a game world set up accordingly.
That said,..having a map speeds up gameplay, sure,..it trivializes things too, imho. It also minimizes player interaction. remember having to ask others how to get somewhere? or ask a Ranger to help locate an NPC on track? Unfortunately games are not designed that way. Who needs track when you got gps and glow beams? A missed opportunity for player interaction if you ask me.
But then again, the genre is not what it used to be. It is populated by swaths of new players who didn't grow up on such metrics nor care. They want an arcade, fast, casual, and more importantly, self-sustaining experience. Let's face it,...sitting at the zone shouting LFG for an hour is not fun for them.
Maps are just the tip of the iceberg. One small casualty to the next gen cash-shop F2p , race to endgame daily grind MMO blueprint.
So,..if the Devs are not gonna support gameplay to accomodate Not having a Map,...I say keep it, and though it may pain me,.make it optional.
There is no getting around the argument that someone's 'prefered' gameplay style will be impacted. From a pro- No Mapper, it Will be perceived that they're forcing it on Pro-Mappers. It is Subtractive rather than additive.
Pro No-Mappers( like myself) want that playstyle AND , maybe selfishly, want others to be on the same level of experience. It's up to the Devs to Dwarf-Up and decide. BUT at the same time, support the decision with a game world set up accordingly.
That said,..having a map speeds up gameplay, sure,..it trivializes things too, imho. It also minimizes player interaction. remember having to ask others how to get somewhere? or ask a Ranger to help locate an NPC on track? Unfortunately games are not designed that way. Who needs track when you got gps and glow beams? A missed opportunity for player interaction if you ask me.
But then again, the genre is not what it used to be. It is populated by swaths of new players who didn't grow up on such metrics nor care. They want an arcade, fast, casual, and more importantly, self-sustaining experience. Let's face it,...sitting at the zone shouting LFG for an hour is not fun for them.
Maps are just the tip of the iceberg. One small casualty to the next gen cash-shop F2p , race to endgame daily grind MMO blueprint.
So,..if the Devs are not gonna support gameplay to accomodate Not having a Map,...I say keep it, and though it may pain me,.make it optional.
Problem is there are old games with Maps that this wasn't a factor in at all, in SWG appropriately everything had a GPS arrow pointing right to it, outside of some very rare exceptions like the death watch bunker. There was an onscreen way-point monitor to track where ever you wanted to go. Player interaction didn't suffer in the slightest in that game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Dauntis Well, don't misunderstand me, I get the having no maps thing, I played EQ and vanilla WoW. But you could turn off the maps if you want the challenge, you don't have to inflict your desire for challenge on others to make things more difficult for yourself.
Beat me to it.
Yes, no one is forcing you to hit the M Key (usually the default for map).
So while others may like maps, they do not need to be taken out. It's far easier to NOT hit the M key for your immersion than to explain to those who DO like maps why they can't have it.
It's about shared experience, everyone being on the same page and "playing the same game".
My thought is that if a game didn't include maps then you and Dauntis probably wouldn't be playing?
Non-issue then and it's ok to have different games utilize different game mechanics.
More on-topic, one of the best times I ever had was in Lineage 2, first week in the game, and I died and dropped my map. I hit "spawn at nearest town" and ended up in some town I had never seen.
I had to ask someone which direction Dark Elf Village was and had to navigate back as best I could. Almost died but for the help of a passerby as I was lost and surrounded by spiders.
But this speaks to a different type of game play experience and not one that everyone finds valuable.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
There is a point there. Having maps readily available Online makes Maps or no maps moot. ( though it is a bit of a throwback vibe of having an external map that you refer to) The best you can hope for is some Fog of War type thing.
Which would lead to the next feature we can debate about. WayPoints and Quest icons. But again,..they'd have to be designed to be mobile, random,, to make it not so predictable.
Or maybe,if the concern is making travel trivial due to maps,. actually make content and mobs in that zone hard so you can't just sprint everywhere.
Ex: Kithkor Forest in EQ. Eventually we all knew our way around, map or no map,..but come night time,..people were outright afraid to traverse it for fear of dying( when consequences were high), and would purposefully plan around the day/night cycle to get to the other end.
eh,..I am going off in tangeants now,..talking about death penalties..cheers!
There is a point there. Having maps readily available makes Maps or no maps moot. The best you can hope for is some Fog of War type thing.
i've long loved the idea of fog of war type maps in mmos, kinda like what every ARPG has. It seems stupid to me, immersive breaking even to an extent for a game to simply have no map system in place at all. Our hero can do so many wonderous things, but he can't remember where he's already explored? That's silly.
Kinda like how Skyrim's map is. When you first start, the overworld is covered in clouds(fog) and as you explore, the map is uncovered for you and if you talk to an npc and they give you directions or read a book that describes the location of a cave or something, then that place is marked on your map as well.
But yea, i would totally applaud a fog of war map in mmos any day.
There is no getting around the argument that someone's 'prefered' gameplay style will be impacted. From a pro- No Mapper, it Will be perceived that they're forcing it on Pro-Mappers. It is Subtractive rather than additive.
Pro No-Mappers( like myself) want that playstyle AND , maybe selfishly, want others to be on the same level of experience. It's up to the Devs to Dwarf-Up and decide. BUT at the same time, support the decision with a game world set up accordingly.
That said,..having a map speeds up gameplay, sure,..it trivializes things too, imho. It also minimizes player interaction. remember having to ask others how to get somewhere? or ask a Ranger to help locate an NPC on track? Unfortunately games are not designed that way. Who needs track when you got gps and glow beams? A missed opportunity for player interaction if you ask me.
But then again, the genre is not what it used to be. It is populated by swaths of new players who didn't grow up on such metrics nor care. They want an arcade, fast, casual, and more importantly, self-sustaining experience. Let's face it,...sitting at the zone shouting LFG for an hour is not fun for them.
Maps are just the tip of the iceberg. One small casualty to the next gen cash-shop F2p , race to endgame daily grind MMO blueprint.
So,..if the Devs are not gonna support gameplay to accomodate Not having a Map,...I say keep it, and though it may pain me,.make it optional.
Problem is there are old games with Maps that this wasn't a factor in at all, in SWG appropriately everything had a GPS arrow pointing right to it, outside of some very rare exceptions like the death watch bunker. There was an onscreen way-point monitor to track where ever you wanted to go. Player interaction didn't suffer in the slightest in that game.
SWG was awesome, I won't debate that. From a lore point I guess I readily accepted waypoints as part of the "tech". And you are right,..there was som much 'other' stuff in that game to promote player interactions like, the awesome crafting and selling aspect, and the whole Cantina/entertainer thing( I got so rich doing that!)
I feel like in other genre MMO's this argument can still stand, the whole man vs. wild, fellowship adventure, lo-fi , primitive swords and dungeon exploration, but you make a great point and I will not dare badger SWG for having a map or waypoints
EDIT: as mentioned above,.Fog of War makes the most sense as a compromise. just for general landscape. Maybe still leave out npc's and such,..save that for trackers or some other spell/skill to discover.
It's not the same thing. If you have a game that has no map feature, you must design the world with terrain features that do a similar function. Like a fork in the road, or take the trail to the left, or follow the river until you hit the waterfall. Terrain features you consider to be walls are merely trying to redirect you. Quests must be written with more than a few words, you need a clue as to where to go "Find the trader along this path, ask him about Chiro... he will tell you a tale, but heed his words, he will direct you to where you wish to go."
The game becomes more meaningful if you have to actually look at the world for clues to where to go next. It encourages you to ask for directions... to become a guide. Merely turning off a map does none of these things. It's either all or nothing. You all must be under the same restrictions or it's nothing more than you wearing a blindfold when everyone else isn't.
That will never be the case though, as many will just look it up anyway, regardless of it being there in game to learn. Making such a bad motivator to base such an argument on. You want a false sense of everyone being there on your level, not unlike many people's false sense of security on p2w not being there with no cashshop. Life isn't fair, virtual life or otherwise.
Exploration, discovery, immersion, challenge, etc... are things that IMO should be approached from a personal motivation, not what the next guy is doing. As these are things of subjective approach, your idea of challenge or immersion are another guy's idea of bloat or annoyance. IN many cases on topics like this it's also a matter of RPG vs Sim or Survival gaming. By that I mean, RPG games aren't typically about challenge or realism as much as they are about character development and setting. What many seem to want are hardcore simulators or Survival games, not what makes a truly in-depth RPG.
To me things like Maps, realism, etc.. are not nearly as important as building my character, finding it's place in the grand scheme of things, while being immersed into the setting itself. Which really doesn't depend on how hard it is, or whether everything makes realistic literal sense. It depends on the background of the setting, as well as believability I can attain of my acted out persona being in it. To that end realism to me becomes boring or even annoying. It gets in the way of what I really care about accomplishing.
To me the epitome of great RPG mechanics in a video game is essentially Morrowind, Skyrim and to a lesser extent Oblivion. They ignore enough realism to let me focus on what matters most to me. Yet offer a believable enough ecosystem to feel as though it is a world you're in.
If there are no maps, there is nothing to go look up, per se... I'm not talking about just the compass... but the world map itself... there is none. You have no idea what the world looks like beyond your field of view in game because the only view you have of the game is at eye-level. Even if someone writes directions out for you, you still would have to follow the terrain and follow the clues given to get to your destination.
You find your way around the office without a map... well maybe not initially if it's a huge office... but you learn the short cuts, the optimum routes, you know where the restrooms are... water coolers... this you learned by wandering around. You don't need GPS or maps to find these things, you eventually map them out in your mind. Take a left at McDonalds... go past the Shell station, about a block down the road you will see the store... if you can find things in the real world this way, you can find them in the game this way. You have more connection to the world if you discover these things than to have someone just tell you.
That's the whole point of getting rid of the map... to put the player back into the world and not merely looking down upon it.
There is no getting around the argument that someone's 'prefered' gameplay style will be impacted. From a pro- No Mapper, it Will be perceived that they're forcing it on Pro-Mappers. It is Subtractive rather than additive.
Pro No-Mappers( like myself) want that playstyle AND , maybe selfishly, want others to be on the same level of experience. It's up to the Devs to Dwarf-Up and decide. BUT at the same time, support the decision with a game world set up accordingly.
That said,..having a map speeds up gameplay, sure,..it trivializes things too, imho. It also minimizes player interaction. remember having to ask others how to get somewhere? or ask a Ranger to help locate an NPC on track? Unfortunately games are not designed that way. Who needs track when you got gps and glow beams? A missed opportunity for player interaction if you ask me.
But then again, the genre is not what it used to be. It is populated by swaths of new players who didn't grow up on such metrics nor care. They want an arcade, fast, casual, and more importantly, self-sustaining experience. Let's face it,...sitting at the zone shouting LFG for an hour is not fun for them.
Maps are just the tip of the iceberg. One small casualty to the next gen cash-shop F2p , race to endgame daily grind MMO blueprint.
So,..if the Devs are not gonna support gameplay to accomodate Not having a Map,...I say keep it, and though it may pain me,.make it optional.
Problem is there are old games with Maps that this wasn't a factor in at all, in SWG appropriately everything had a GPS arrow pointing right to it, outside of some very rare exceptions like the death watch bunker. There was an onscreen way-point monitor to track where ever you wanted to go. Player interaction didn't suffer in the slightest in that game.
SWG was awesome, I won't debate that. From a lore point I guess I readily accepted waypoints as part of the "tech". And you are right,..there was som much 'other' stuff in that game to promote player interactions like, the awesome crafting and selling aspect, and the whole Cantina/entertainer thing( I got so rich doing that!)
I feel like in other genre MMO's this argument can still stand, the whole man vs. wild, fellowship adventure, lo-fi , primitive swords and dungeon exploration, but you make a great point and I will not dare badger SWG for having a map or waypoints
EDIT: as mentioned above,.Fog of War makes the most sense as a compromise. just for general landscape. Maybe still leave out npc's and such,..save that for trackers or some other spell/skill to discover.
Fog of War is a great thing IMO, as I said earlier in the thread I find it a better compromise than removing maps entirely. I think it was KOTOR, that used my favorite method, unlocking maps, in it you did so on terminals if I recall correctly. You could handle it in a fantasy setting by adding map shards to the loot tables. OR laying around the world.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's not the same thing. If you have a game that has no map feature, you must design the world with terrain features that do a similar function. Like a fork in the road, or take the trail to the left, or follow the river until you hit the waterfall. Terrain features you consider to be walls are merely trying to redirect you. Quests must be written with more than a few words, you need a clue as to where to go "Find the trader along this path, ask him about Chiro... he will tell you a tale, but heed his words, he will direct you to where you wish to go."
The game becomes more meaningful if you have to actually look at the world for clues to where to go next. It encourages you to ask for directions... to become a guide. Merely turning off a map does none of these things. It's either all or nothing. You all must be under the same restrictions or it's nothing more than you wearing a blindfold when everyone else isn't.
That will never be the case though, as many will just look it up anyway, regardless of it being there in game to learn. Making such a bad motivator to base such an argument on. You want a false sense of everyone being there on your level, not unlike many people's false sense of security on p2w not being there with no cashshop. Life isn't fair, virtual life or otherwise.
Exploration, discovery, immersion, challenge, etc... are things that IMO should be approached from a personal motivation, not what the next guy is doing. As these are things of subjective approach, your idea of challenge or immersion are another guy's idea of bloat or annoyance. IN many cases on topics like this it's also a matter of RPG vs Sim or Survival gaming. By that I mean, RPG games aren't typically about challenge or realism as much as they are about character development and setting. What many seem to want are hardcore simulators or Survival games, not what makes a truly in-depth RPG.
To me things like Maps, realism, etc.. are not nearly as important as building my character, finding it's place in the grand scheme of things, while being immersed into the setting itself. Which really doesn't depend on how hard it is, or whether everything makes realistic literal sense. It depends on the background of the setting, as well as believability I can attain of my acted out persona being in it. To that end realism to me becomes boring or even annoying. It gets in the way of what I really care about accomplishing.
To me the epitome of great RPG mechanics in a video game is essentially Morrowind, Skyrim and to a lesser extent Oblivion. They ignore enough realism to let me focus on what matters most to me. Yet offer a believable enough ecosystem to feel as though it is a world you're in.
If there are no maps, there is nothing to go look up, per se... I'm not talking about just the compass... but the world map itself... there is none. You have no idea what the world looks like beyond your field of view in game because the only view you have of the game is at eye-level. Even if someone writes directions out for you, you still would have to follow the terrain and follow the clues given to get to your destination.
You find your way around the office without a map... well maybe not initially if it's a huge office... but you learn the short cuts, the optimum routes, you know where the restrooms are... water coolers... this you learned by wandering around. You don't need GPS or maps to find these things, you eventually map them out in your mind. Take a left at McDonalds... go past the Shell station, about a block down the road you will see the store... if you can find things in the real world this way, you can find them in the game this way. You have more connection to the world if you discover these things than to have someone just tell you.
That's the whole point of getting rid of the map... to put the player back into the world and not merely looking down upon it.
Except there's always maps whether they're in game or not so your point is moot, you're just creating more work for the player, pulling them outside the game to look up maps. As i said before, even in the big daddy of no-map games Everquest, 90% of the population used EQAtlas and the like for their map needs before SOE added maps in game.
Also are you really comparing an office to the rather large and complex worlds that some games can offer?
If there are no maps, there is nothing to go look up, per se... I'm not talking about just the compass... but the world map itself... there is none. You have no idea what the world looks like beyond your field of view in game because the only view you have of the game is at eye-level. Even if someone writes directions out for you, you still would have to follow the terrain and follow the clues given to get to your destination.
You find your way around the office without a map... well maybe not initially if it's a huge office... but you learn the short cuts, the optimum routes, you know where the restrooms are... water coolers... this you learned by wandering around. You don't need GPS or maps to find these things, you eventually map them out in your mind. Take a left at McDonalds... go past the Shell station, about a block down the road you will see the store... if you can find things in the real world this way, you can find them in the game this way. You have more connection to the world if you discover these things than to have someone just tell you.
That's the whole point of getting rid of the map... to put the player back into the world and not merely looking down upon it.
I get the idea of the benefit it brings to the table, for a certain type of game-play it makes sense. STill I like to memorize an area either way, as there's a benefit to not having to look at the map all the time, especially in something like GTA, where driving fast and dipping into spray shops is an important factor in game-play.
I guess my overall point was that, I think there are better ways to handle this in an RPG setting than simply removing maps. As others have said Fog of War, my example of map unlocks, etc.. These make more sense to me than simply removing the map for no other sake than removing the map. Which doesn't effect-alter game-play, it simply gives you no bearing on how the world is set up. Where as systems of unlocking the map, at least rewards that exploration and eventually gives you an idea of where you are in the world proper.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Exploration, discovery, immersion, challenge, etc... are things that IMO should be approached from a personal motivation, not what the next guy is doing.
Many people feel otherwise and they play mulitplayer game instead of single player game precisely because they are driven by competition and 'what's next guy is doing'.
Originally posted by Distopia
That will never be the case though, as many will just look it up anyway, regardless of it being there in game to learn. Making such a bad motivator to base such an argument on. You want a false sense of everyone being there on your level, not unlike many people's false sense of security on p2w not being there with no cashshop. Life isn't fair, virtual life or otherwise.
Some people simply want to purcharse not only a game but also an gaming enviroment that is more fair, even if it won't be fully fair.
Many people who get into real life amateur sport or games competition want rules and judges to enforce those rules too, even though they are aware that no amount of rules or judges will create completly fair game/sport enviroment because many people will cheat anyway.
Argument that people will cheat and life is unfair is not really any argument at all
Exploration, discovery, immersion, challenge, etc... are things that IMO should be approached from a personal motivation, not what the next guy is doing.
Many people feel otherwise and they play mulitplayer game instead of single player game precisely because they are driven by competition and 'what's next guy is doing'.
Originally posted by Distopia
That will never be the case though, as many will just look it up anyway, regardless of it being there in game to learn. Making such a bad motivator to base such an argument on. You want a false sense of everyone being there on your level, not unlike many people's false sense of security on p2w not being there with no cashshop. Life isn't fair, virtual life or otherwise.
Some people simply want to purcharse not only a game but also an gaming enviroment that is more fair, even if it won't be fully fair.
Many people who get into real life amateur sport or games competition want rules and judges to enforce those rules too, even though they are aware that no amount of rules or judges will create completly fair game/sport enviroment because many people will cheat anyway.
Argument that people will cheat and life is unfair is not really any argument at all
It's as much an argument as "what the other guy is doing" is, which it was the counter argument to...:) and only a slight bit of my overall point... Which you cut out.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's not the same thing. If you have a game that has no map feature, you must design the world with terrain features that do a similar function. Like a fork in the road, or take the trail to the left, or follow the river until you hit the waterfall. Terrain features you consider to be walls are merely trying to redirect you. Quests must be written with more than a few words, you need a clue as to where to go "Find the trader along this path, ask him about Chiro... he will tell you a tale, but heed his words, he will direct you to where you wish to go."
The game becomes more meaningful if you have to actually look at the world for clues to where to go next. It encourages you to ask for directions... to become a guide. Merely turning off a map does none of these things. It's either all or nothing. You all must be under the same restrictions or it's nothing more than you wearing a blindfold when everyone else isn't.
That will never be the case though, as many will just look it up anyway, regardless of it being there in game to learn. Making such a bad motivator to base such an argument on. You want a false sense of everyone being there on your level, not unlike many people's false sense of security on p2w not being there with no cashshop. Life isn't fair, virtual life or otherwise.
Exploration, discovery, immersion, challenge, etc... are things that IMO should be approached from a personal motivation, not what the next guy is doing. As these are things of subjective approach, your idea of challenge or immersion are another guy's idea of bloat or annoyance. IN many cases on topics like this it's also a matter of RPG vs Sim or Survival gaming. By that I mean, RPG games aren't typically about challenge or realism as much as they are about character development and setting. What many seem to want are hardcore simulators or Survival games, not what makes a truly in-depth RPG.
To me things like Maps, realism, etc.. are not nearly as important as building my character, finding it's place in the grand scheme of things, while being immersed into the setting itself. Which really doesn't depend on how hard it is, or whether everything makes realistic literal sense. It depends on the background of the setting, as well as believability I can attain of my acted out persona being in it. To that end realism to me becomes boring or even annoying. It gets in the way of what I really care about accomplishing.
To me the epitome of great RPG mechanics in a video game is essentially Morrowind, Skyrim and to a lesser extent Oblivion. They ignore enough realism to let me focus on what matters most to me. Yet offer a believable enough ecosystem to feel as though it is a world you're in.
If there are no maps, there is nothing to go look up, per se... I'm not talking about just the compass... but the world map itself... there is none. You have no idea what the world looks like beyond your field of view in game because the only view you have of the game is at eye-level. Even if someone writes directions out for you, you still would have to follow the terrain and follow the clues given to get to your destination.
You find your way around the office without a map... well maybe not initially if it's a huge office... but you learn the short cuts, the optimum routes, you know where the restrooms are... water coolers... this you learned by wandering around. You don't need GPS or maps to find these things, you eventually map them out in your mind. Take a left at McDonalds... go past the Shell station, about a block down the road you will see the store... if you can find things in the real world this way, you can find them in the game this way. You have more connection to the world if you discover these things than to have someone just tell you.
That's the whole point of getting rid of the map... to put the player back into the world and not merely looking down upon it.
Except there's always maps whether they're in game or not so your point is moot, you're just creating more work for the player, pulling them outside the game to look up maps. As i said before, even in the big daddy of no-map games Everquest, 90% of the population used EQAtlas and the like for their map needs before SOE added maps in game.
Also are you really comparing an office to the rather large and complex worlds that some games can offer?
No I am saying that you figure out where things are based on visual cues... the brain is capable of doing that you know. The only point that you are making is that it is harder to find things on your own than to have someone point it out for you. That is true. But the real gist of these games is about exploration and discovery... the fact that people have turned them into quick-look add ons has never been a plus and has turned these games into what they are now... small little boxes with 20 people or less smacking on the big bad dude and calling it a raid.
If all you want to do is go into a small little box with 20 other people and beat on the big bad boss... you never needed a world or a map to begin with. The world is not complex if you can see it before you've actually seen it. There's no point in making the world complex if you are going to spend the preponderance of your time in a tiny little raid instance.
You see removing maps as a hinderance.... I see it as bringing the world back to life. But if, in the end your only goal is to sit in a raid instance, it's pointless to even discuss having or not having maps... you're not even going to be out in the world for very long to begin with.
It's not the same thing. If you have a game that has no map feature, you must design the world with terrain features that do a similar function. Like a fork in the road, or take the trail to the left, or follow the river until you hit the waterfall. Terrain features you consider to be walls are merely trying to redirect you. Quests must be written with more than a few words, you need a clue as to where to go "Find the trader along this path, ask him about Chiro... he will tell you a tale, but heed his words, he will direct you to where you wish to go."
The game becomes more meaningful if you have to actually look at the world for clues to where to go next. It encourages you to ask for directions... to become a guide. Merely turning off a map does none of these things. It's either all or nothing. You all must be under the same restrictions or it's nothing more than you wearing a blindfold when everyone else isn't.
That will never be the case though, as many will just look it up anyway, regardless of it being there in game to learn. Making such a bad motivator to base such an argument on. You want a false sense of everyone being there on your level, not unlike many people's false sense of security on p2w not being there with no cashshop. Life isn't fair, virtual life or otherwise.
Exploration, discovery, immersion, challenge, etc... are things that IMO should be approached from a personal motivation, not what the next guy is doing. As these are things of subjective approach, your idea of challenge or immersion are another guy's idea of bloat or annoyance. IN many cases on topics like this it's also a matter of RPG vs Sim or Survival gaming. By that I mean, RPG games aren't typically about challenge or realism as much as they are about character development and setting. What many seem to want are hardcore simulators or Survival games, not what makes a truly in-depth RPG.
To me things like Maps, realism, etc.. are not nearly as important as building my character, finding it's place in the grand scheme of things, while being immersed into the setting itself. Which really doesn't depend on how hard it is, or whether everything makes realistic literal sense. It depends on the background of the setting, as well as believability I can attain of my acted out persona being in it. To that end realism to me becomes boring or even annoying. It gets in the way of what I really care about accomplishing.
To me the epitome of great RPG mechanics in a video game is essentially Morrowind, Skyrim and to a lesser extent Oblivion. They ignore enough realism to let me focus on what matters most to me. Yet offer a believable enough ecosystem to feel as though it is a world you're in.
If there are no maps, there is nothing to go look up, per se... I'm not talking about just the compass... but the world map itself... there is none. You have no idea what the world looks like beyond your field of view in game because the only view you have of the game is at eye-level. Even if someone writes directions out for you, you still would have to follow the terrain and follow the clues given to get to your destination.
You find your way around the office without a map... well maybe not initially if it's a huge office... but you learn the short cuts, the optimum routes, you know where the restrooms are... water coolers... this you learned by wandering around. You don't need GPS or maps to find these things, you eventually map them out in your mind. Take a left at McDonalds... go past the Shell station, about a block down the road you will see the store... if you can find things in the real world this way, you can find them in the game this way. You have more connection to the world if you discover these things than to have someone just tell you.
That's the whole point of getting rid of the map... to put the player back into the world and not merely looking down upon it.
Except there's always maps whether they're in game or not so your point is moot, you're just creating more work for the player, pulling them outside the game to look up maps. As i said before, even in the big daddy of no-map games Everquest, 90% of the population used EQAtlas and the like for their map needs before SOE added maps in game.
Also are you really comparing an office to the rather large and complex worlds that some games can offer?
No I am saying that you figure out where things are based on visual cues... the brain is capable of doing that you know. The only point that you are making is that it is harder to find things on your own than to have someone point it out for you. That is true. But the real gist of these games is about exploration and discovery... the fact that people have turned them into quick-look add ons has never been a plus and has turned these games into what they are now... small little boxes with 20 people or less smacking on the big bad dude and calling it a raid.
If all you want to do is go into a small little box with 20 other people and beat on the big bad boss... you never needed a world or a map to begin with. The world is not complex if you can see it before you've actually seen it. There's no point in making the world complex if you are going to spend the preponderance of your time in a tiny little raid instance.
You see removing maps as a hinderance.... I see it as bringing the world back to life. But if, in the end your only goal is to sit in a raid instance, it's pointless to even discuss having or not having maps... you're not even going to be out in the world for very long to begin with.
Oh i get it, so just because i want a map means i don't like exploration and must only want instances that i can immediately teleport to and fight my big bad boss and be done for the week. Man that really makes me super shallow now that i think about it, why am i even playing these games? /s
It's not the same thing. If you have a game that has no map feature, you must design the world with terrain features that do a similar function. Like a fork in the road, or take the trail to the left, or follow the river until you hit the waterfall. Terrain features you consider to be walls are merely trying to redirect you. Quests must be written with more than a few words, you need a clue as to where to go "Find the trader along this path, ask him about Chiro... he will tell you a tale, but heed his words, he will direct you to where you wish to go."
The game becomes more meaningful if you have to actually look at the world for clues to where to go next. It encourages you to ask for directions... to become a guide. Merely turning off a map does none of these things. It's either all or nothing. You all must be under the same restrictions or it's nothing more than you wearing a blindfold when everyone else isn't.
That will never be the case though, as many will just look it up anyway, regardless of it being there in game to learn. Making such a bad motivator to base such an argument on. You want a false sense of everyone being there on your level, not unlike many people's false sense of security on p2w not being there with no cashshop. Life isn't fair, virtual life or otherwise.
Exploration, discovery, immersion, challenge, etc... are things that IMO should be approached from a personal motivation, not what the next guy is doing. As these are things of subjective approach, your idea of challenge or immersion are another guy's idea of bloat or annoyance. IN many cases on topics like this it's also a matter of RPG vs Sim or Survival gaming. By that I mean, RPG games aren't typically about challenge or realism as much as they are about character development and setting. What many seem to want are hardcore simulators or Survival games, not what makes a truly in-depth RPG.
To me things like Maps, realism, etc.. are not nearly as important as building my character, finding it's place in the grand scheme of things, while being immersed into the setting itself. Which really doesn't depend on how hard it is, or whether everything makes realistic literal sense. It depends on the background of the setting, as well as believability I can attain of my acted out persona being in it. To that end realism to me becomes boring or even annoying. It gets in the way of what I really care about accomplishing.
To me the epitome of great RPG mechanics in a video game is essentially Morrowind, Skyrim and to a lesser extent Oblivion. They ignore enough realism to let me focus on what matters most to me. Yet offer a believable enough ecosystem to feel as though it is a world you're in.
If there are no maps, there is nothing to go look up, per se... I'm not talking about just the compass... but the world map itself... there is none. You have no idea what the world looks like beyond your field of view in game because the only view you have of the game is at eye-level. Even if someone writes directions out for you, you still would have to follow the terrain and follow the clues given to get to your destination.
You find your way around the office without a map... well maybe not initially if it's a huge office... but you learn the short cuts, the optimum routes, you know where the restrooms are... water coolers... this you learned by wandering around. You don't need GPS or maps to find these things, you eventually map them out in your mind. Take a left at McDonalds... go past the Shell station, about a block down the road you will see the store... if you can find things in the real world this way, you can find them in the game this way. You have more connection to the world if you discover these things than to have someone just tell you.
That's the whole point of getting rid of the map... to put the player back into the world and not merely looking down upon it.
Except there's always maps whether they're in game or not so your point is moot, you're just creating more work for the player, pulling them outside the game to look up maps. As i said before, even in the big daddy of no-map games Everquest, 90% of the population used EQAtlas and the like for their map needs before SOE added maps in game.
Also are you really comparing an office to the rather large and complex worlds that some games can offer?
No I am saying that you figure out where things are based on visual cues... the brain is capable of doing that you know. The only point that you are making is that it is harder to find things on your own than to have someone point it out for you. That is true. But the real gist of these games is about exploration and discovery... the fact that people have turned them into quick-look add ons has never been a plus and has turned these games into what they are now... small little boxes with 20 people or less smacking on the big bad dude and calling it a raid.
If all you want to do is go into a small little box with 20 other people and beat on the big bad boss... you never needed a world or a map to begin with. The world is not complex if you can see it before you've actually seen it. There's no point in making the world complex if you are going to spend the preponderance of your time in a tiny little raid instance.
You see removing maps as a hinderance.... I see it as bringing the world back to life. But if, in the end your only goal is to sit in a raid instance, it's pointless to even discuss having or not having maps... you're not even going to be out in the world for very long to begin with.
IS it people seeing it as a hindrance or is it seeing it as a poor fix with better solutions available?
Take something like Morrowind as an example, where the map is essentially blank until your exploration fills it in.. KOTOR and games like it where the map is unlocked or fog of war that obscures what's ahead?
Each of these systems can have the same result being sought in removing the map, while still offering a map as well as compass..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Exploration, discovery, immersion, challenge, etc... are things that IMO should be approached from a personal motivation, not what the next guy is doing.
Many people feel otherwise and they play mulitplayer game instead of single player game precisely because they are driven by competition and 'what's next guy is doing'.
Originally posted by Distopia
That will never be the case though, as many will just look it up anyway, regardless of it being there in game to learn. Making such a bad motivator to base such an argument on. You want a false sense of everyone being there on your level, not unlike many people's false sense of security on p2w not being there with no cashshop. Life isn't fair, virtual life or otherwise.
Some people simply want to purcharse not only a game but also an gaming enviroment that is more fair, even if it won't be fully fair.
Many people who get into real life amateur sport or games competition want rules and judges to enforce those rules too, even though they are aware that no amount of rules or judges will create completly fair game/sport enviroment because many people will cheat anyway.
Argument that people will cheat and life is unfair is not really any argument at all
It's as much an argument as "what the other guy is doing" is, which it was the counter argument to...:) and only a slight bit of my overall point... Which you cut out.
We could argue all day, but long story short is that diffrent people want game deisigns that are mutually exclusive and options approach is often not an option Not when someone want to buy specific multiplayer enviroment and experience, experience that is multiplayer and community and not solely personal.
No amount of convincing is gonna change that.
Anyway I will adress rest of your post:
Originally posted by Distopia
As these are things of subjective approach, your idea of challenge or immersion are another guy's idea of bloat or annoyance
Yes they are. That's why I've mentioned mutually exclusive expectations. Sometimes you just cannot make both parties happy and "if you don't like this option don't use it" is not an answer. Especially not in multiplayer game.
Originally posted by Distopia
IN many cases on topics like this it's also a matter of RPG vs Sim or Survival gaming. By that I mean, RPG games aren't typically about challenge or realism as much as they are about character development and setting. What many seem to want are hardcore simulators or Survival games, not what makes a truly in-depth RPG.
Plenty of people would disagree. There is no shortage of people who want a game that have character developement, interesting setting AND does provide either challange and/or (pseudo) realistic in-game features / solutions/game mechanics.
Originally posted by Distopia
To me things like Maps, realism, etc.. are not nearly as important as building my character, finding it's place in the grand scheme of things, while being immersed into the setting itself. Which really doesn't depend on how hard it is, or whether everything makes realistic literal sense. It depends on the background of the setting, as well as believability I can attain of my acted out persona being in it. To that end realism to me becomes boring or even annoying. It gets in the way of what I really care about accomplishing.
To me the epitome of great RPG mechanics in a video game is essentially Morrowind, Skyrim and to a lesser extent Oblivion. They ignore enough realism to let me focus on what matters most to me. Yet offer a believable enough ecosystem to feel as though it is a world you're in.
Like you said in previous part of post it depends on subjective approach
Other people may either put more importance to other elements than you or even more interesingly may value same things you value but additionally want "things like maps".
As for The Elder Scrolls/Fallout by Bethsedsa games. Plenty of popular mods that either add to challange or realism in those games.
Exploration, discovery, immersion, challenge, etc... are things that IMO should be approached from a personal motivation, not what the next guy is doing.
Many people feel otherwise and they play mulitplayer game instead of single player game precisely because they are driven by competition and 'what's next guy is doing'.
Originally posted by Distopia
That will never be the case though, as many will just look it up anyway, regardless of it being there in game to learn. Making such a bad motivator to base such an argument on. You want a false sense of everyone being there on your level, not unlike many people's false sense of security on p2w not being there with no cashshop. Life isn't fair, virtual life or otherwise.
Some people simply want to purcharse not only a game but also an gaming enviroment that is more fair, even if it won't be fully fair.
Many people who get into real life amateur sport or games competition want rules and judges to enforce those rules too, even though they are aware that no amount of rules or judges will create completly fair game/sport enviroment because many people will cheat anyway.
Argument that people will cheat and life is unfair is not really any argument at all
It's as much an argument as "what the other guy is doing" is, which it was the counter argument to...:) and only a slight bit of my overall point... Which you cut out.
We could argue all day, but long story short is that diffrent people want game deisigns that are mutually exclusive and options approach is often not an option Not when someone want to buy specific multiplayer enviroment and experience, experience that is multiplayer and community and not solely personal.
No amount of convincing is gonna change that.
Anyway I will adress rest of your post:
Originally posted by Distopia
As these are things of subjective approach, your idea of challenge or immersion are another guy's idea of bloat or annoyance
Yes they are. That's why I've mentioned mutually exclusive expectations. Sometimes you just cannot make both parties happy and "if you don't like this option don't use it" is not an answer. Not in multiplayer game.
Originally posted by Distopia
IN many cases on topics like this it's also a matter of RPG vs Sim or Survival gaming. By that I mean, RPG games aren't typically about challenge or realism as much as they are about character development and setting. What many seem to want are hardcore simulators or Survival games, not what makes a truly in-depth RPG.
Plenty of people would disagree. There is no shortage of people who want a game that have character developement, interesting setting AND does provide either challange and/or (pseudo) realistic in-game features / solutions/game mechanics.
Originally posted by Distopia
To me things like Maps, realism, etc.. are not nearly as important as building my character, finding it's place in the grand scheme of things, while being immersed into the setting itself. Which really doesn't depend on how hard it is, or whether everything makes realistic literal sense. It depends on the background of the setting, as well as believability I can attain of my acted out persona being in it. To that end realism to me becomes boring or even annoying. It gets in the way of what I really care about accomplishing.
To me the epitome of great RPG mechanics in a video game is essentially Morrowind, Skyrim and to a lesser extent Oblivion. They ignore enough realism to let me focus on what matters most to me. Yet offer a believable enough ecosystem to feel as though it is a world you're in.
Like you said in previous part of post it depends on subjective approach
Other people may either put more importance to other elements than you or even more interesingly may value same things you value but additionally want "things like maps".
As for The Elder Scrolls/Fallout by Bethsedsa games. Plenty of popular mods that either add to challange or realism in those games.
Didn't realize the elder scrolls/fallout by Bethesda that are modded by plenty of people were mmorpgs.
It'd be a tough sell. Most people are hooked on the convenience features we have in most games and never give any thought to what they're giving up in return for the convenience.
There is no getting around the argument that someone's 'prefered' gameplay style will be impacted. From a pro- No Mapper, it Will be perceived that they're forcing it on Pro-Mappers. It is Subtractive rather than additive.
Pro No-Mappers( like myself) want that playstyle AND , maybe selfishly, want others to be on the same level of experience. It's up to the Devs to Dwarf-Up and decide. BUT at the same time, support the decision with a game world set up accordingly.
That said,..having a map speeds up gameplay, sure,..it trivializes things too, imho. It also minimizes player interaction. remember having to ask others how to get somewhere? or ask a Ranger to help locate an NPC on track? Unfortunately games are not designed that way. Who needs track when you got gps and glow beams? A missed opportunity for player interaction if you ask me.
But then again, the genre is not what it used to be. It is populated by swaths of new players who didn't grow up on such metrics nor care. They want an arcade, fast, casual, and more importantly, self-sustaining experience. Let's face it,...sitting at the zone shouting LFG for an hour is not fun for them.
Maps are just the tip of the iceberg. One small casualty to the next gen cash-shop F2p , race to endgame daily grind MMO blueprint.
So,..if the Devs are not gonna support gameplay to accomodate Not having a Map,...I say keep it, and though it may pain me,.make it optional.
Problem is there are old games with Maps that this wasn't a factor in at all, in SWG appropriately everything had a GPS arrow pointing right to it, outside of some very rare exceptions like the death watch bunker. There was an onscreen way-point monitor to track where ever you wanted to go. Player interaction didn't suffer in the slightest in that game.
This.
People assign properties to fetures that just aint there
And everyone looked at maps outside the game anyway.
You can get "no map" game by just - not looking at a map.
Look how many people have mentioned EQ Atlas on these pages. Even back before maps people spent hours making them and sharing them with all. Then my wall was filled with maps and those with no maps floundered until they memorized a zone. We also had experience penalties in EQ if you were human full exp then on down sub species were like 75% then you had hybred penalty. Started with a half elf bard and all the humans were at 10 when I was almost 4. It was a game choice I hated till I hit about 35 then those mad skillz made me the leveling guru.
Then of course $OE bought them out bulldozed the game classes and servers made them vanilla. no penalty, no dark versus light lets play team pvp.
But I really wonder if they brought back a regular non pvp and a dark versus light pvp server with full exp penalties and no maps how many would play today (new graphics of course) Now that $OE is getting out I would probably try it out.
Maps on the walls till I learned the zones again though.
Well i agree in the sense i could do without ALL the hand holding in games.As to wanting the DS or Bloodthorne experience,not on your life,that is the type of gaming you couldn't pay me to play.
I agree that giving maps is imo lame,you should have to learn a cartographer skill and make your own maps.Worse yet is when games not only give you the map but somehow all markers and quests are on that map.
Yes i remember EQ and i still play FFXI,exactly the same type game but imo tons better.Yes i enjoy those types of MMORPG's over any other builds but we won't see gaming like that ever again.Devs are sold on EASE of game play,EASE of soloing,tons of hand holding ,they believe it makes for the most sales.
Yes i believe there are a few people out there that want to make a game THEY truly want,but even those few after spending many weeks and not seeing any money,soon change their ways.Unless a developer is filthy rich and willing to make a great game out of charity you won't be seeing and heart felt builds.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
IMHO "all of us" would be a very small percentage.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
That will never be the case though, as many will just look it up anyway, regardless of it being there in game to learn. Making such a bad motivator to base such an argument on. You want a false sense of everyone being there on your level, not unlike many people's false sense of security on p2w not being there with no cashshop. Life isn't fair, virtual life or otherwise.
Exploration, discovery, immersion, challenge, etc... are things that IMO should be approached from a personal motivation, not what the next guy is doing. As these are things of subjective approach, your idea of challenge or immersion are another guy's idea of bloat or annoyance. IN many cases on topics like this it's also a matter of RPG vs Sim or Survival gaming. By that I mean, RPG games aren't typically about challenge or realism as much as they are about character development and setting. What many seem to want are hardcore simulators or Survival games, not what makes a truly in-depth RPG.
To me things like Maps, realism, etc.. are not nearly as important as building my character, finding it's place in the grand scheme of things, while being immersed into the setting itself. Which really doesn't depend on how hard it is, or whether everything makes realistic literal sense. It depends on the background of the setting, as well as believability I can attain of my acted out persona being in it. To that end realism to me becomes boring or even annoying. It gets in the way of what I really care about accomplishing.
To me the epitome of great RPG mechanics in a video game is essentially Morrowind, Skyrim and to a lesser extent Oblivion. They ignore enough realism to let me focus on what matters most to me. Yet offer a believable enough ecosystem to feel as though it is a world you're in.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Absolutely. Worlds felt so much bigger and more real without the GPS map ruining it. And quests felt way more organic when they weren't tied to the leveling system.'
But while I think someday quest grinding might go away, I doubt many devs will get rid of the mini map.
There is no getting around the argument that someone's 'prefered' gameplay style will be impacted. From a pro- No Mapper, it Will be perceived that they're forcing it on Pro-Mappers. It is Subtractive rather than additive.
Pro No-Mappers( like myself) want that playstyle AND , maybe selfishly, want others to be on the same level of experience. It's up to the Devs to Dwarf-Up and decide. BUT at the same time, support the decision with a game world set up accordingly.
That said,..having a map speeds up gameplay, sure,..it trivializes things too, imho. It also minimizes player interaction. remember having to ask others how to get somewhere? or ask a Ranger to help locate an NPC on track? Unfortunately games are not designed that way. Who needs track when you got gps and glow beams? A missed opportunity for player interaction if you ask me.
But then again, the genre is not what it used to be. It is populated by swaths of new players who didn't grow up on such metrics nor care. They want an arcade, fast, casual, and more importantly, self-sustaining experience. Let's face it,...sitting at the zone shouting LFG for an hour is not fun for them.
Maps are just the tip of the iceberg. One small casualty to the next gen cash-shop F2p , race to endgame daily grind MMO blueprint.
So,..if the Devs are not gonna support gameplay to accomodate Not having a Map,...I say keep it, and though it may pain me,.make it optional.
Problem is there are old games with Maps that this wasn't a factor in at all, in SWG appropriately everything had a GPS arrow pointing right to it, outside of some very rare exceptions like the death watch bunker. There was an onscreen way-point monitor to track where ever you wanted to go. Player interaction didn't suffer in the slightest in that game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's about shared experience, everyone being on the same page and "playing the same game".
My thought is that if a game didn't include maps then you and Dauntis probably wouldn't be playing?
Non-issue then and it's ok to have different games utilize different game mechanics.
More on-topic, one of the best times I ever had was in Lineage 2, first week in the game, and I died and dropped my map. I hit "spawn at nearest town" and ended up in some town I had never seen.
I had to ask someone which direction Dark Elf Village was and had to navigate back as best I could. Almost died but for the help of a passerby as I was lost and surrounded by spiders.
But this speaks to a different type of game play experience and not one that everyone finds valuable.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
There is a point there. Having maps readily available Online makes Maps or no maps moot. ( though it is a bit of a throwback vibe of having an external map that you refer to) The best you can hope for is some Fog of War type thing.
Which would lead to the next feature we can debate about. WayPoints and Quest icons. But again,..they'd have to be designed to be mobile, random,, to make it not so predictable.
Or maybe,if the concern is making travel trivial due to maps,. actually make content and mobs in that zone hard so you can't just sprint everywhere.
Ex: Kithkor Forest in EQ. Eventually we all knew our way around, map or no map,..but come night time,..people were outright afraid to traverse it for fear of dying( when consequences were high), and would purposefully plan around the day/night cycle to get to the other end.
eh,..I am going off in tangeants now,..talking about death penalties..cheers!
good luck
i've long loved the idea of fog of war type maps in mmos, kinda like what every ARPG has. It seems stupid to me, immersive breaking even to an extent for a game to simply have no map system in place at all. Our hero can do so many wonderous things, but he can't remember where he's already explored? That's silly.
Kinda like how Skyrim's map is. When you first start, the overworld is covered in clouds(fog) and as you explore, the map is uncovered for you and if you talk to an npc and they give you directions or read a book that describes the location of a cave or something, then that place is marked on your map as well.
But yea, i would totally applaud a fog of war map in mmos any day.
SWG was awesome, I won't debate that. From a lore point I guess I readily accepted waypoints as part of the "tech". And you are right,..there was som much 'other' stuff in that game to promote player interactions like, the awesome crafting and selling aspect, and the whole Cantina/entertainer thing( I got so rich doing that!)
I feel like in other genre MMO's this argument can still stand, the whole man vs. wild, fellowship adventure, lo-fi , primitive swords and dungeon exploration, but you make a great point and I will not dare badger SWG for having a map or waypoints
EDIT: as mentioned above,.Fog of War makes the most sense as a compromise. just for general landscape. Maybe still leave out npc's and such,..save that for trackers or some other spell/skill to discover.
If there are no maps, there is nothing to go look up, per se... I'm not talking about just the compass... but the world map itself... there is none. You have no idea what the world looks like beyond your field of view in game because the only view you have of the game is at eye-level. Even if someone writes directions out for you, you still would have to follow the terrain and follow the clues given to get to your destination.
You find your way around the office without a map... well maybe not initially if it's a huge office... but you learn the short cuts, the optimum routes, you know where the restrooms are... water coolers... this you learned by wandering around. You don't need GPS or maps to find these things, you eventually map them out in your mind. Take a left at McDonalds... go past the Shell station, about a block down the road you will see the store... if you can find things in the real world this way, you can find them in the game this way. You have more connection to the world if you discover these things than to have someone just tell you.
That's the whole point of getting rid of the map... to put the player back into the world and not merely looking down upon it.
Fog of War is a great thing IMO, as I said earlier in the thread I find it a better compromise than removing maps entirely. I think it was KOTOR, that used my favorite method, unlocking maps, in it you did so on terminals if I recall correctly. You could handle it in a fantasy setting by adding map shards to the loot tables. OR laying around the world.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Except there's always maps whether they're in game or not so your point is moot, you're just creating more work for the player, pulling them outside the game to look up maps. As i said before, even in the big daddy of no-map games Everquest, 90% of the population used EQAtlas and the like for their map needs before SOE added maps in game.
Also are you really comparing an office to the rather large and complex worlds that some games can offer?
I get the idea of the benefit it brings to the table, for a certain type of game-play it makes sense. STill I like to memorize an area either way, as there's a benefit to not having to look at the map all the time, especially in something like GTA, where driving fast and dipping into spray shops is an important factor in game-play.
I guess my overall point was that, I think there are better ways to handle this in an RPG setting than simply removing maps. As others have said Fog of War, my example of map unlocks, etc.. These make more sense to me than simply removing the map for no other sake than removing the map. Which doesn't effect-alter game-play, it simply gives you no bearing on how the world is set up. Where as systems of unlocking the map, at least rewards that exploration and eventually gives you an idea of where you are in the world proper.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Many people feel otherwise and they play mulitplayer game instead of single player game precisely because they are driven by competition and 'what's next guy is doing'.
Some people simply want to purcharse not only a game but also an gaming enviroment that is more fair, even if it won't be fully fair.
Many people who get into real life amateur sport or games competition want rules and judges to enforce those rules too, even though they are aware that no amount of rules or judges will create completly fair game/sport enviroment because many people will cheat anyway.
Argument that people will cheat and life is unfair is not really any argument at all
It's as much an argument as "what the other guy is doing" is, which it was the counter argument to...:) and only a slight bit of my overall point... Which you cut out.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No I am saying that you figure out where things are based on visual cues... the brain is capable of doing that you know. The only point that you are making is that it is harder to find things on your own than to have someone point it out for you. That is true. But the real gist of these games is about exploration and discovery... the fact that people have turned them into quick-look add ons has never been a plus and has turned these games into what they are now... small little boxes with 20 people or less smacking on the big bad dude and calling it a raid.
If all you want to do is go into a small little box with 20 other people and beat on the big bad boss... you never needed a world or a map to begin with. The world is not complex if you can see it before you've actually seen it. There's no point in making the world complex if you are going to spend the preponderance of your time in a tiny little raid instance.
You see removing maps as a hinderance.... I see it as bringing the world back to life. But if, in the end your only goal is to sit in a raid instance, it's pointless to even discuss having or not having maps... you're not even going to be out in the world for very long to begin with.
Oh i get it, so just because i want a map means i don't like exploration and must only want instances that i can immediately teleport to and fight my big bad boss and be done for the week. Man that really makes me super shallow now that i think about it, why am i even playing these games? /s
IS it people seeing it as a hindrance or is it seeing it as a poor fix with better solutions available?
Take something like Morrowind as an example, where the map is essentially blank until your exploration fills it in.. KOTOR and games like it where the map is unlocked or fog of war that obscures what's ahead?
Each of these systems can have the same result being sought in removing the map, while still offering a map as well as compass..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
We could argue all day, but long story short is that diffrent people want game deisigns that are mutually exclusive and options approach is often not an option
Not when someone want to buy specific multiplayer enviroment and experience, experience that is multiplayer and community and not solely personal.
No amount of convincing is gonna change that.
Anyway I will adress rest of your post:
Yes they are. That's why I've mentioned mutually exclusive expectations. Sometimes you just cannot make both parties happy and "if you don't like this option don't use it" is not an answer. Especially not in multiplayer game.
Plenty of people would disagree. There is no shortage of people who want a game that have character developement, interesting setting AND does provide either challange and/or (pseudo) realistic in-game features / solutions/game mechanics.
Like you said in previous part of post it depends on subjective approach
Other people may either put more importance to other elements than you or even more interesingly may value same things you value but additionally want "things like maps".
As for The Elder Scrolls/Fallout by Bethsedsa games. Plenty of popular mods that either add to challange or realism in those games.
Didn't realize the elder scrolls/fallout by Bethesda that are modded by plenty of people were mmorpgs.
They are not, but it is Distopia who brought Bethesda single player games into discussion. I am merely responding.
This.
People assign properties to fetures that just aint there
And everyone looked at maps outside the game anyway.
You can get "no map" game by just - not looking at a map.
Look how many people have mentioned EQ Atlas on these pages. Even back before maps people spent hours making them and sharing them with all. Then my wall was filled with maps and those with no maps floundered until they memorized a zone. We also had experience penalties in EQ if you were human full exp then on down sub species were like 75% then you had hybred penalty. Started with a half elf bard and all the humans were at 10 when I was almost 4. It was a game choice I hated till I hit about 35 then those mad skillz made me the leveling guru.
Then of course $OE bought them out bulldozed the game classes and servers made them vanilla. no penalty, no dark versus light lets play team pvp.
But I really wonder if they brought back a regular non pvp and a dark versus light pvp server with full exp penalties and no maps how many would play today (new graphics of course) Now that $OE is getting out I would probably try it out.
Maps on the walls till I learned the zones again though.
Well i agree in the sense i could do without ALL the hand holding in games.As to wanting the DS or Bloodthorne experience,not on your life,that is the type of gaming you couldn't pay me to play.
I agree that giving maps is imo lame,you should have to learn a cartographer skill and make your own maps.Worse yet is when games not only give you the map but somehow all markers and quests are on that map.
Yes i remember EQ and i still play FFXI,exactly the same type game but imo tons better.Yes i enjoy those types of MMORPG's over any other builds but we won't see gaming like that ever again.Devs are sold on EASE of game play,EASE of soloing,tons of hand holding ,they believe it makes for the most sales.
Yes i believe there are a few people out there that want to make a game THEY truly want,but even those few after spending many weeks and not seeing any money,soon change their ways.Unless a developer is filthy rich and willing to make a great game out of charity you won't be seeing and heart felt builds.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.