If I were a game company of any sense, I wouldn't be figuring out how to get whales to spend more in my F2P games.
I would be trying to figure out, instead, how to design a game that will get these whales into my game, and give them no reason to ever leave.
I'd much rather have a good 70% of my players paying $500 on average, than the current model of <10% of my players paying $1000 or more. It's obvious they are out there.
Because it seems that if you are in a position to jump through all sorts of hoops to figure out, through data mining, that these $1000/month super spenders will buy an exclusive beret for $5 or $10, it would be much more convenient--for both you and the whale--to simply create a game that has costume mesh and texture artists in house that are on call as a service to patrons, so that the patron can just tell him what he wants, and the artist can do it, as a complimentary service of the game.
Of course, there would be a steep fee to get in on a game with such personalized service. But I think it can be done for less than the $1000/month that these whales currently spend, and be far better for the whales, who can get a level of personalized service guaranteed.
I'm calling it right now. The publisher or developer who can figure out how a full service, exclusive luxury MMO should operate will not only become successful, but it will kill most F2P. Once people figure out how to build a "whales only lagoon," many oceans in which they roam now will dry up.
There isnt any real way to appeal to large spenders as a demographic. The fact that they consider gaming a hobby is not something that you can directly appeal too across the board. However, what you can do is make sure that you have the systems in place that appeal to their interest (in spending).
Mechanics like tradeable cash shop items, exchangeable currency (like PLEX from EVE), guild housing/banks, and basic functions that allow one person to support many (like subs). It is also important to have prestige/vanity upsells available (or at least tradeable in game).
As for spending levels, well at $500 per month you are looking at dophins, not whales. It is technically possible to make a game that would only appeal to this market, but it would have to do so by driving away the rest of the market. I am not sure that such a game would be economically feasible. You would likely have to PAY players to fill up the game, just to draw the attention of the target audience. The key to the big spender experience is prestige over the masses. Without the masses, this has no value.
You would likely have to PAY players to fill up the game, just to draw the attention of the target audience.
Oh, of that I have no doubt.
The petty "status signaling" games that are played today in the item stores are really, when all is said and done, rather worthless to the person who is willing to pay top dollar for entertainment. That's fine when you are in the company of the masses, but it does you no good when you are in the company of equals. Nobody in the skyboxes comments on the others' shoes, because everybody is wearing good shoes...what then?
The next step is, of course, to give the person who pays top dollar a qualitatively different experience entirely to everyone else. And the only way you can do that is to give them the thing that you can't buy "off the rack": dedicated, personalized staff.
I'd imagine such a game would act very much like a cruise ship or a hotel: you'd have paid staff who are all around, filling various roles as actors of important characters or as window dressing. Imagine paid character actors to play various roles which are normally filled by scripted NPCs. Imagine that quests, far from being predictable and boring, can now be individually tailored to each unique person.
That, to me, is the next level.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
You would likely have to PAY players to fill up the game, just to draw the attention of the target audience.
Oh, of that I have no doubt.
The petty "status signaling" games that are played today in the item stores are really, when all is said and done, rather worthless to the person who is willing to pay top dollar for entertainment. That's fine when you are in the company of the masses, but it does you no good when you are in the company of equals. Nobody in the skyboxes comments on the others' shoes, because everybody is wearing good shoes...what then?
The next step is, of course, to give the person who pays top dollar a qualitatively different experience entirely to everyone else. And the only way you can do that is to give them the thing that you can't buy "off the rack": dedicated, personalized staff.
I'd imagine such a game would act very much like a cruise ship or a hotel: you'd have paid staff who are all around, filling various roles as actors of important characters or as window dressing. Imagine paid character actors to play various roles which are normally filled by scripted NPCs. Imagine that quests, far from being predictable and boring, can now be individually tailored to each unique person.
That, to me, is the next level.
That seems like it might work as an entertainment medium. Thinking about this, it would require a change in approach. Rather than classic game design, you would have to think of it as a theater performance, but on a small, personalized level. This might do well as a personalized experience... and could even exist within an existing game. Imagine a WoW experience where Staff took control of the monsters/NPC's or were the other 'players' all to give the customer a unique experience in an existing game world.
You would likely have to PAY players to fill up the game, just to draw the attention of the target audience.
Oh, of that I have no doubt.
The petty "status signaling" games that are played today in the item stores are really, when all is said and done, rather worthless to the person who is willing to pay top dollar for entertainment. That's fine when you are in the company of the masses, but it does you no good when you are in the company of equals. Nobody in the skyboxes comments on the others' shoes, because everybody is wearing good shoes...what then?
The next step is, of course, to give the person who pays top dollar a qualitatively different experience entirely to everyone else. And the only way you can do that is to give them the thing that you can't buy "off the rack": dedicated, personalized staff.
I'd imagine such a game would act very much like a cruise ship or a hotel: you'd have paid staff who are all around, filling various roles as actors of important characters or as window dressing. Imagine paid character actors to play various roles which are normally filled by scripted NPCs. Imagine that quests, far from being predictable and boring, can now be individually tailored to each unique person.
That, to me, is the next level.
That seems like it might work as an entertainment medium. Thinking about this, it would require a change in approach. Rather than classic game design, you would have to think of it as a theater performance, but on a small, personalized level. This might do well as a personalized experience... and could even exist within an existing game. Imagine a WoW experience where Staff took control of the monsters/NPC's or were the other 'players' all to give the customer a unique experience in an existing game world.
Exactly!
This is an approach that, when you look at it closely, really gets back to the roots of MMORPG philosophy back when it came out of the MUDs and MUSHs in the GOPHER era. Back in those days, you'd actually have the developers and the major content creators play the important faction leaders and various cameos.
The MMORPGs, today, substitutes scripts for character acting...mainly to reduce cost, so it can be available to the mass market. But I'm thinking that if people are willing to shell out $1000s of dollars to be entertained online, they can support such a vision.
I, for one, would LOVE to work my RPing skills for money, entertaining people online on 4-6 hour shifts, handing out quests for people and building roles from the lore. I did it for free in SWG and CoH, with far worse tools.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I'm calling it right now. The publisher or developer who can figure out how a full service, exclusive luxury MMO should operate will not only become successful, but it will kill most F2P. Once people figure out how to build a "whales only lagoon," many oceans in which they roam now will dry up.
you are not the only one who wants the whales to stay ... why would the whales stay in your game than theirs?
Now you claim that a full service will beat "status and winning" (where whales can buy today). Since there is no data, i won't claim to have definitive information either way. But i do have to question if your assumption is valid.
It is clear that pay to win and status works. How do you know pay for service will work too, and can compete in this market? Are you willing to bet your house on it? (Essentially what you ask devs to do).
I'm calling it right now. The publisher or developer who can figure out how a full service, exclusive luxury MMO should operate will not only become successful, but it will kill most F2P. Once people figure out how to build a "whales only lagoon," many oceans in which they roam now will dry up.
you are not the only one who wants the whales to stay ... why would the whales stay in your game than theirs?
Now you claim that a full service will beat "status and winning" (where whales can buy today). Since there is no data, i won't claim to have definitive information either way. But i do have to question if your assumption is valid.
It is clear that pay to win and status works. How do you know pay for service will work too, and can compete in this market? Are you willing to bet your house on it? (Essentially what you ask devs to do).
Lets, for a second, assume that a high end, full service game could draw high spenders. How would this kill F2P? They are essentially different ends of the spectrum, and as such would not compete for the same userbase.
What you're failing to realize is the fact that your statistic and claim is ignoring that 80% of the market is shit to begin with.
Lol .. "shit to begin with" .. while ten of millions of players play for 30 days? Clearly not shit in the first 30 days.
You are forgetting your OWN point .. that quality is high in the beginning, then drop off.
If you read your own statistics page provided you would have realized it's only 20% of people sticking around for 30 days or more. Over half of them quit in the first week and then ten percent more dwindle off following that. 80% of the players don't make it anywhere near playing the game for 30 days before quitting, so you're setting up a false pretense that your own evidence does not support.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
So you admit that f2p games needs "front loaded" quality to "lure people in". Then what is wrong with players who just enjoy the high INITIAL quality of the games, then quit?
P2P games need to be 'front loaded' to get people to buy in. This is usually what they use for the marketting, to get the money, before people realize that there is no depth.
F2P games need to be 'back loaded' to get people to pay money once they are already in the game. The F2P game has to sell itself every day to get your money. The P2P game already has your money, so doesn't need to follow through with anything.
Not rerally, no. P2P games get their money by having players subscribe each and every month. If the game does not make the players' time in game "fun", they lose those players.
Yes, a player has to spend money up front. But they also have to spend to keep on playing. So if a game sucks, players stop paying. So P2P games need to be front loaded, mid loaded, AND back loaded in order to keep players of all levels to keep on playing and paying.
Yes, the business model needs a constant stream of revenue, however the subscription model in MMOs relies heavily on frontloaded cash. If it didn't they would just give away the client for free. After all, why create such a barrier if it isn't needed?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yes, the business model needs a constant stream of revenue, however the subscription model in MMOs relies heavily on frontloaded cash. If it didn't they would just give away the client for free. After all, why create such a barrier if it isn't needed?
Classical business strategy as well as a more immediate recoup of the loss in development cost. All games are built on the notion of negative income effectively during the course of their development due to the fact that you can't market the title until it's in at least a semi-operable state. As such, having some kind of initial sale to take out a chunk of that cost of development that's been hanging over your head for the last five years tends to be a decent idea. It also helps the studio in having the funding to move forward post-launch with paying the devs to stay on board and continuing work for patching and updates.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I'm calling it right now. The publisher or developer who can figure out how a full service, exclusive luxury MMO should operate will not only become successful, but it will kill most F2P. Once people figure out how to build a "whales only lagoon," many oceans in which they roam now will dry up.
you are not the only one who wants the whales to stay ... why would the whales stay in your game than theirs?
Now you claim that a full service will beat "status and winning" (where whales can buy today). Since there is no data, i won't claim to have definitive information either way. But i do have to question if your assumption is valid.
It is clear that pay to win and status works. How do you know pay for service will work too, and can compete in this market? Are you willing to bet your house on it? (Essentially what you ask devs to do).
If it is the right business model, with the right talent behind it, I would invest in something like this, and a sizable amount.
Because I'm convinced that it's at least equally viable to current F2P (and let's admit it, few F2P titles reach the kind of runaway success that WoT and LoL do...F2P is risky), and has the possibility to be far more viable than the current faire.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I'm calling it right now. The publisher or developer who can figure out how a full service, exclusive luxury MMO should operate will not only become successful, but it will kill most F2P. Once people figure out how to build a "whales only lagoon," many oceans in which they roam now will dry up.
you are not the only one who wants the whales to stay ... why would the whales stay in your game than theirs?
Now you claim that a full service will beat "status and winning" (where whales can buy today). Since there is no data, i won't claim to have definitive information either way. But i do have to question if your assumption is valid.
It is clear that pay to win and status works. How do you know pay for service will work too, and can compete in this market? Are you willing to bet your house on it? (Essentially what you ask devs to do).
Lets, for a second, assume that a high end, full service game could draw high spenders. How would this kill F2P? They are essentially different ends of the spectrum, and as such would not compete for the same userbase.
If the whales left rthe F2P arena to go to the luxury arena, who would pay for the F2P games? Certainly not the freeloaders that are left or the few who trickle in money here and there.
I'm calling it right now. The publisher or developer who can figure out how a full service, exclusive luxury MMO should operate will not only become successful, but it will kill most F2P. Once people figure out how to build a "whales only lagoon," many oceans in which they roam now will dry up.
you are not the only one who wants the whales to stay ... why would the whales stay in your game than theirs?
Now you claim that a full service will beat "status and winning" (where whales can buy today). Since there is no data, i won't claim to have definitive information either way. But i do have to question if your assumption is valid.
It is clear that pay to win and status works. How do you know pay for service will work too, and can compete in this market? Are you willing to bet your house on it? (Essentially what you ask devs to do).
Lets, for a second, assume that a high end, full service game could draw high spenders. How would this kill F2P? They are essentially different ends of the spectrum, and as such would not compete for the same userbase.
If the whales left rthe F2P arena to go to the luxury arena, who would pay for the F2P games? Certainly not the freeloaders that are left or the few who trickle in money here and there.
What are the reasons you think the big spenders are spending money in the F2P games, @VestigeGamer ?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm calling it right now. The publisher or developer who can figure out how a full service, exclusive luxury MMO should operate will not only become successful, but it will kill most F2P. Once people figure out how to build a "whales only lagoon," many oceans in which they roam now will dry up.
you are not the only one who wants the whales to stay ... why would the whales stay in your game than theirs?
Now you claim that a full service will beat "status and winning" (where whales can buy today). Since there is no data, i won't claim to have definitive information either way. But i do have to question if your assumption is valid.
It is clear that pay to win and status works. How do you know pay for service will work too, and can compete in this market? Are you willing to bet your house on it? (Essentially what you ask devs to do).
Lets, for a second, assume that a high end, full service game could draw high spenders. How would this kill F2P? They are essentially different ends of the spectrum, and as such would not compete for the same userbase.
If the whales left rthe F2P arena to go to the luxury arena, who would pay for the F2P games? Certainly not the freeloaders that are left or the few who trickle in money here and there.
Why are the two approaches mutually exclusive? How would a high end, full service game offer the same experience as a open access public game? The reason that people play MMO's is to play with other people, even if indirectly. There is a certain energy and feedback that comes from the masses of players. This is why many large spenders play MMO's, and why the spend money. They may like the catered experience, but they also like the chaos of the uncontrolled experience.
Lets ignore my first paragraph, and assume that F2P no longer got big spenders. In fact, lets assume that all non premium games no longer got big spenders. This would be a drastic change in the marketplace, and would affect all games out there. Now they would have to compete for the mid/low spenders. This would give F2P an advantage over P2P. The lower cost of aquisition and conversion would help them be more efficient than P2P, with their higher marketing costs.
If it is the right business model, with the right talent behind it, I would invest in something like this, and a sizable amount.
Because I'm convinced that it's at least equally viable to current F2P (and let's admit it, few F2P titles reach the kind of runaway success that WoT and LoL do...F2P is risky), and has the possibility to be far more viable than the current faire.
THAT are a lot of IFs.
And so what if few are as successful as WoT & LoL? I can also say no p2p game is as successful as WOW. In fact, few GAMES are as successful of WoT, LoL and WOW. That said nothing about if you have this brand new idea, whether it will fly or not.
And of course you are just saying it ... cause no money is going to change hands, right?
And personally i think right business model (if that is even possible) and right talent (i assume you mean design & software) ... are not enough. How are you going to train and find the service reps/DMs? Managing a large (and here we are probably talking about hundreds, if not thousands at least) group of high touch, high skill support staff is probably a lot of headache.
I'm calling it right now. The publisher or developer who can figure out how a full service, exclusive luxury MMO should operate will not only become successful, but it will kill most F2P. Once people figure out how to build a "whales only lagoon," many oceans in which they roam now will dry up.
you are not the only one who wants the whales to stay ... why would the whales stay in your game than theirs?
Now you claim that a full service will beat "status and winning" (where whales can buy today). Since there is no data, i won't claim to have definitive information either way. But i do have to question if your assumption is valid.
It is clear that pay to win and status works. How do you know pay for service will work too, and can compete in this market? Are you willing to bet your house on it? (Essentially what you ask devs to do).
Lets, for a second, assume that a high end, full service game could draw high spenders. How would this kill F2P? They are essentially different ends of the spectrum, and as such would not compete for the same userbase.
If the whales left rthe F2P arena to go to the luxury arena, who would pay for the F2P games? Certainly not the freeloaders that are left or the few who trickle in money here and there.
You simply don't understand how much money is out there. Most people don't. They think in terms of buying this OR that. While the Whales/Rich never even have that cross their mind. They buy this AND that. they already have the luxury goods, the world vacations, and the $5K a month phone game habit AND they helped this guy buy a mansion when they weren't playing a game themselves.
For them to drop $10,000 on a game has the same impact on them as you ignoring the penny you saw in the gutter. Are you stupid for ignoring that nasty penny? Then they aren't stupid for spending $10K on a game which is less of an impact on their finances than that penny is on yours.
There is A LOT of money out there, beyond most people's imaginations, and there's A LOT of people with that amount. (And here's a hint... $1 Million is change to most of them.)
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I'm calling it right now. The publisher or developer who can figure out how a full service, exclusive luxury MMO should operate will not only become successful, but it will kill most F2P. Once people figure out how to build a "whales only lagoon," many oceans in which they roam now will dry up.
you are not the only one who wants the whales to stay ... why would the whales stay in your game than theirs?
Now you claim that a full service will beat "status and winning" (where whales can buy today). Since there is no data, i won't claim to have definitive information either way. But i do have to question if your assumption is valid.
It is clear that pay to win and status works. How do you know pay for service will work too, and can compete in this market? Are you willing to bet your house on it? (Essentially what you ask devs to do).
Lets, for a second, assume that a high end, full service game could draw high spenders. How would this kill F2P? They are essentially different ends of the spectrum, and as such would not compete for the same userbase.
If the whales left rthe F2P arena to go to the luxury arena, who would pay for the F2P games? Certainly not the freeloaders that are left or the few who trickle in money here and there.
What are the reasons you think the big spenders are spending money in the F2P games, @VestigeGamer ?
F2P games are still running, not dead. Someone is paying for them.
I'm calling it right now. The publisher or developer who can figure out how a full service, exclusive luxury MMO should operate will not only become successful, but it will kill most F2P. Once people figure out how to build a "whales only lagoon," many oceans in which they roam now will dry up.
you are not the only one who wants the whales to stay ... why would the whales stay in your game than theirs?
Now you claim that a full service will beat "status and winning" (where whales can buy today). Since there is no data, i won't claim to have definitive information either way. But i do have to question if your assumption is valid.
It is clear that pay to win and status works. How do you know pay for service will work too, and can compete in this market? Are you willing to bet your house on it? (Essentially what you ask devs to do).
Lets, for a second, assume that a high end, full service game could draw high spenders. How would this kill F2P? They are essentially different ends of the spectrum, and as such would not compete for the same userbase.
If the whales left rthe F2P arena to go to the luxury arena, who would pay for the F2P games? Certainly not the freeloaders that are left or the few who trickle in money here and there.
What are the reasons you think the big spenders are spending money in the F2P games, @VestigeGamer ?
F2P games are still running, not dead. Someone is paying for them.
The same applies to P2P. The online gaming industry is disproportionately paid for by big spenders. I suspect this may be true in much of the entertainment industry, but don't have enough data to say for sure.
You mean to tell me I have "won" every MMO I have ever played when I killed my very first level 1 opponent? I was unaware that MMOs (the whole game) could be "won", especially in such a simple fashion. I have yet to read in any MMO "ruleset" how to "win the game." Could you show me where this is stated? In any MMO? Or is this just your personal rule for "winning?"
When you won your first match of chess, did you think you had beaten chess (the whole game)? Or are you a rational, thinking individual who understands the difference between winning a match and winning an entire game?
The way encounters are won in MMORPGs is unmistakably implied and most often requires reducing the HP of all opponents to zero.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Why are the two approaches mutually exclusive? How would a high end, full service game offer the same experience as a open access public game? The reason that people play MMO's is to play with other people, even if indirectly. There is a certain energy and feedback that comes from the masses of players. This is why many large spenders play MMO's, and why the spend money. They may like the catered experience, but they also like the chaos of the uncontrolled experience.
Lets ignore my first paragraph, and assume that F2P no longer got big spenders. In fact, lets assume that all non premium games no longer got big spenders. This would be a drastic change in the marketplace, and would affect all games out there. Now they would have to compete for the mid/low spenders. This would give F2P an advantage over P2P. The lower cost of aquisition and conversion would help them be more efficient than P2P, with their higher marketing costs.
I doubrt they would be mutually exclusive. But there is only so much money out there. A finite number, so to speak. If a premium luxury experience came about and attracted many of the whales (enough to make a tidy profit), that money is not spent in the regular F2P games. Who picks up this deficit?
I realize some whales may play all games and spend inordinate amounts in each and every game. But there is a limit to what can get spent, don't you think?
Yes, F2P would be the cheaper route. Always has been, always will be. "Cheap" does not scream "GREAT!" to me. Then again, I look for a very different experience than 90% of the population today. Maybe to them, cheap=great.
You simply don't understand how much money is out there. Most people don't. They think in terms of buying this OR that. While the Whales/Rich never even have that cross their mind. They buy this AND that. they already have the luxury goods, the world vacations, and the $5K a month phone game habit AND they helped this guy buy a mansion when they weren't playing a game themselves.
For them to drop $10,000 on a game has the same impact on them as you ignoring the penny you saw in the gutter. Are you stupid for ignoring that nasty penny? Then they aren't stupid for spending $10K on a game which is less of an impact on their finances than that penny is on yours.
There is A LOT of money out there, beyond most people's imaginations, and there's A LOT of people with that amount. (And here's a hint... $1 Million is change to most of them.)
This is a great point. I wonder how many of these "Bill Gates" rich people actually play video games. Then I wonder how many of these few actually play MMOs.
For them to drop $10,000 on a game has the same impact on them as you ignoring the penny you saw in the gutter. Are you stupid for ignoring that nasty penny? Then they aren't stupid for spending $10K on a game which is less of an impact on their finances than that penny is on yours.
There is A LOT of money out there, beyond most people's imaginations, and there's A LOT of people with that amount. (And here's a hint... $1 Million is change to most of them.)
Do you know what I would do if a guy wanted to throw $10,000 at me to give him the best this genre has to offer?
I wouldn't give him the stuff from the item store. I would give him a designer and style consultant who can design exactly what he wants from head to toe, custom done.
And I wouldn't have this guy go to quest chains with NPC scripts. I'd have him get quests directly from character actors who play people like the king, or his sergeant at arms, who would talk to him in real time. Perhaps these people would even ask for this person personally to deliver a message to another real life NPC.
And this guy? He wouldn't have to grind out his skill levels on MOBs and boring XP hunting. I'd give him his own trainer and mentor, live played by someone, who trains him in his own dojo, going through a routine of physical exercises, meditations, sparring, and hard discipline. When he does these things to his Sensei's satisfaction, he'll get the level...so the client won't just have the level, the client will feel like he's earned it in a way no grinder ever will.
And this guy will have his own nemesis, played by one of my staff, who will show up and do unexpected things, so the client will always have excitement and purpose to become better.
This guy might also find a princess out in the wilderness, who is being harassed by some orcs (all played by people), so he can save her and bring her back to her father.
And the two might, on occasion, talk about things like her dreams, and they can share laughs (this woman is played by a real character actress).
...Until, one day, the nemesis steals her away, threatening to sacrifice her to his dark gods, unless the king abdicates.
So the king promises you her hand in marriage, if you would save her.
And your mentor and yourself will go on a great journey to the goddess's temple, to gain whatever gifts she has to aid in your fight.
And you do, and the goddess (played by one of my staff) challenges you to do her a favor first, and steal something from a rival god's temple.
You do, but in a cataclysmic fight, your mentor sacrifices himself so that you can go on. The epic death scene ends with him saying "I have taught you all that I know...now you must do what must be done!"
In the final battle, overcoming great odds, you finally destroy your nemesis. The princess tells her protector how much she means to him, and how grateful she is.
And so, as promised, the king gives you permission to marry his daughter, in a lavish ceremony, followed by the first night, fully ERPed by my character actress in the client's bedchamber.
And, if the player wants, the princess can give birth to the client's son nine months later, who is played by one of my staff.
Now tell me. Is that worth more than what they usually get for $10,000 in these games? Because I think that I could offer this kind of experience for a price of less than $10,000 per client in a game which is set up to facilitate such play.
Call it "WoW private client" or "Ever Quest Black Label" or "The Super Secret World." It kind of makes everything else these guys have been spending their money on cheap by comparison.
Post edited by Beatnik59 on
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
F2P games are still running, not dead. Someone is paying for them.
The same applies to P2P. The online gaming industry is disproportionately paid for by big spenders. I suspect this may be true in much of the entertainment industry, but don't have enough data to say for sure.
And i quote "In 2014, free-to-play MMO games generated 1.4 billion U.S. dollars and pay-to-play MMO games generated 0.7 billion U.S. dollars in North America."
Do you know what I would do if a guy wanted to throw $10,000 at me to give him the best this genre has to offer?
I wouldn't give him the stuff from the item store. I would give him a designer and style consultant who can design exactly what he wants from head to toe, custom done.
And I wouldn't have this guy go to quest chains with NPC scripts. I'd have him get quests directly from character actors who play people like the king, or his sergeant at arms, who would talk to him in real time. Perhaps these people would even ask for this person personally to deliver a message to another real life NPC.
And this guy? He wouldn't have to grind out his skill levels on MOBs and boring XP hunting. I'd give him his own trainer and mentor, live played by someone, who trains him in his own dojo, going through a routine of physical exercises, meditations, sparring, and hard discipline. When he does these things to his Sensei's satisfaction, he'll get the level...so the client won't just have the level, the client will feel like he's earned it in a way no grinder ever will.
And this guy will have his own nemesis, played by one of my staff, who will show up and do unexpected things, so the client will always have excitement and purpose to become better.
This guy might also find a princess out in the wilderness, who is being harassed by some orcs (all played by people), so he can save her and bring her back to her father.
And the two might, on occasion, talk about things like her dreams, and they can share laughs (this woman is played by a real character actress).
...Until, one day, the nemesis steals her away, threatening to sacrifice her to his dark gods, unless the king abdicates.
So the king promises you her hand in marriage, if you would save her.
And your mentor and yourself will go on a great journey to the goddess's temple, to gain whatever gifts she has to aid in your fight.
And you do, and the goddess (played by one of my staff) challenges you to do her a favor first, and steal something from a rival god's temple.
You do, but in a cataclysmic fight, your mentor sacrifices himself so that you can go on. The epic death scene ends with him saying "I have taught you all that I know...now you must do what must be done!"
In the final battle, overcoming great odds, you finally destroy your nemesis. The princess tells her protector how much she means to him, and how grateful she is.
And so, as promised, the king gives you permission to marry his daughter, in a lavish ceremony, followed by the first night, fully ERPed by my character actress in the client's bedchamber.
And, if the player wants, the princess can give birth to the client's son nine months later, who is played by one of my staff.
Now tell me. Is that worth more than what they usually get for $10,000 in these games? Because I think that I could offer this kind of experience for a price of less than $10,000 per client in a game which is set up to facilitate such play.
Call it "WoW private client" or "Ever Quest Black Label" or "The Super Secret World." It kind of makes everything else these guys have been spending their money on cheap by comparison.
Sounds an awful lot like spending $160,000 worth of yearly salaries across 3-4 employees, to earn $10k one time from a single player. (Ignoring all of the additional costs of the rest of the game, which would also need to include unusually strong tool support so that real-time RPing is better facilitated.)
Sure it's fun to daydream about what life would be like if artists starved for us (spent $160k to make $10k) but it's not terribly realistic.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sounds an awful lot like spending $160,000 worth of yearly salaries across 3-4 employees, to earn $10k one time from a single player. (Ignoring all of the additional costs of the rest of the game, which would also need to include unusually strong tool support so that real-time RPing is better facilitated.)
By your own math (which I don't think applies to anyone in this scenario except, maybe, the graphic artist), all I need is 17 clients to want this service, and it'll be more than worthwhile.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Comments
Mechanics like tradeable cash shop items, exchangeable currency (like PLEX from EVE), guild housing/banks, and basic functions that allow one person to support many (like subs). It is also important to have prestige/vanity upsells available (or at least tradeable in game).
As for spending levels, well at $500 per month you are looking at dophins, not whales. It is technically possible to make a game that would only appeal to this market, but it would have to do so by driving away the rest of the market. I am not sure that such a game would be economically feasible. You would likely have to PAY players to fill up the game, just to draw the attention of the target audience. The key to the big spender experience is prestige over the masses. Without the masses, this has no value.
The petty "status signaling" games that are played today in the item stores are really, when all is said and done, rather worthless to the person who is willing to pay top dollar for entertainment. That's fine when you are in the company of the masses, but it does you no good when you are in the company of equals. Nobody in the skyboxes comments on the others' shoes, because everybody is wearing good shoes...what then?
The next step is, of course, to give the person who pays top dollar a qualitatively different experience entirely to everyone else. And the only way you can do that is to give them the thing that you can't buy "off the rack": dedicated, personalized staff.
I'd imagine such a game would act very much like a cruise ship or a hotel: you'd have paid staff who are all around, filling various roles as actors of important characters or as window dressing. Imagine paid character actors to play various roles which are normally filled by scripted NPCs. Imagine that quests, far from being predictable and boring, can now be individually tailored to each unique person.
That, to me, is the next level.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
This is an approach that, when you look at it closely, really gets back to the roots of MMORPG philosophy back when it came out of the MUDs and MUSHs in the GOPHER era. Back in those days, you'd actually have the developers and the major content creators play the important faction leaders and various cameos.
The MMORPGs, today, substitutes scripts for character acting...mainly to reduce cost, so it can be available to the mass market. But I'm thinking that if people are willing to shell out $1000s of dollars to be entertained online, they can support such a vision.
I, for one, would LOVE to work my RPing skills for money, entertaining people online on 4-6 hour shifts, handing out quests for people and building roles from the lore. I did it for free in SWG and CoH, with far worse tools.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Now you claim that a full service will beat "status and winning" (where whales can buy today). Since there is no data, i won't claim to have definitive information either way. But i do have to question if your assumption is valid.
It is clear that pay to win and status works. How do you know pay for service will work too, and can compete in this market? Are you willing to bet your house on it? (Essentially what you ask devs to do).
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Because I'm convinced that it's at least equally viable to current F2P (and let's admit it, few F2P titles reach the kind of runaway success that WoT and LoL do...F2P is risky), and has the possibility to be far more viable than the current faire.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
VG
What are the reasons you think the big spenders are spending money in the F2P games, @VestigeGamer ?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Lets ignore my first paragraph, and assume that F2P no longer got big spenders. In fact, lets assume that all non premium games no longer got big spenders. This would be a drastic change in the marketplace, and would affect all games out there. Now they would have to compete for the mid/low spenders. This would give F2P an advantage over P2P. The lower cost of aquisition and conversion would help them be more efficient than P2P, with their higher marketing costs.
And so what if few are as successful as WoT & LoL? I can also say no p2p game is as successful as WOW. In fact, few GAMES are as successful of WoT, LoL and WOW. That said nothing about if you have this brand new idea, whether it will fly or not.
And of course you are just saying it ... cause no money is going to change hands, right?
And personally i think right business model (if that is even possible) and right talent (i assume you mean design & software) ... are not enough. How are you going to train and find the service reps/DMs? Managing a large (and here we are probably talking about hundreds, if not thousands at least) group of high touch, high skill support staff is probably a lot of headache.
And you want everyone to be a creative DM?
https://www.vg247.com/2015/10/12/minecraft-streamer-buys-4-5m-sunset-strip-mansion/
For them to drop $10,000 on a game has the same impact on them as you ignoring the penny you saw in the gutter. Are you stupid for ignoring that nasty penny? Then they aren't stupid for spending $10K on a game which is less of an impact on their finances than that penny is on yours.
There is A LOT of money out there, beyond most people's imaginations, and there's A LOT of people with that amount. (And here's a hint... $1 Million is change to most of them.)
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
VG
The way encounters are won in MMORPGs is unmistakably implied and most often requires reducing the HP of all opponents to zero.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I realize some whales may play all games and spend inordinate amounts in each and every game. But there is a limit to what can get spent, don't you think?
Yes, F2P would be the cheaper route. Always has been, always will be. "Cheap" does not scream "GREAT!" to me. Then again, I look for a very different experience than 90% of the population today. Maybe to them, cheap=great.
VG
VG
I wouldn't give him the stuff from the item store. I would give him a designer and style consultant who can design exactly what he wants from head to toe, custom done.
And I wouldn't have this guy go to quest chains with NPC scripts. I'd have him get quests directly from character actors who play people like the king, or his sergeant at arms, who would talk to him in real time. Perhaps these people would even ask for this person personally to deliver a message to another real life NPC.
And this guy? He wouldn't have to grind out his skill levels on MOBs and boring XP hunting. I'd give him his own trainer and mentor, live played by someone, who trains him in his own dojo, going through a routine of physical exercises, meditations, sparring, and hard discipline. When he does these things to his Sensei's satisfaction, he'll get the level...so the client won't just have the level, the client will feel like he's earned it in a way no grinder ever will.
And this guy will have his own nemesis, played by one of my staff, who will show up and do unexpected things, so the client will always have excitement and purpose to become better.
This guy might also find a princess out in the wilderness, who is being harassed by some orcs (all played by people), so he can save her and bring her back to her father.
And the two might, on occasion, talk about things like her dreams, and they can share laughs (this woman is played by a real character actress).
...Until, one day, the nemesis steals her away, threatening to sacrifice her to his dark gods, unless the king abdicates.
So the king promises you her hand in marriage, if you would save her.
And your mentor and yourself will go on a great journey to the goddess's temple, to gain whatever gifts she has to aid in your fight.
And you do, and the goddess (played by one of my staff) challenges you to do her a favor first, and steal something from a rival god's temple.
You do, but in a cataclysmic fight, your mentor sacrifices himself so that you can go on. The epic death scene ends with him saying "I have taught you all that I know...now you must do what must be done!"
In the final battle, overcoming great odds, you finally destroy your nemesis. The princess tells her protector how much she means to him, and how grateful she is.
And so, as promised, the king gives you permission to marry his daughter, in a lavish ceremony, followed by the first night, fully ERPed by my character actress in the client's bedchamber.
And, if the player wants, the princess can give birth to the client's son nine months later, who is played by one of my staff.
Now tell me. Is that worth more than what they usually get for $10,000 in these games? Because I think that I could offer this kind of experience for a price of less than $10,000 per client in a game which is set up to facilitate such play.
Call it "WoW private client" or "Ever Quest Black Label" or "The Super Secret World." It kind of makes everything else these guys have been spending their money on cheap by comparison.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
http://www.statista.com/statistics/343101/mmo-games-revenue-f2p-p2p-region/
And i quote "In 2014, free-to-play MMO games generated 1.4 billion U.S. dollars and pay-to-play MMO games generated 0.7 billion U.S. dollars in North America."
Sure it's fun to daydream about what life would be like if artists starved for us (spent $160k to make $10k) but it's not terribly realistic.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE