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"Being a Single Player in a MMO World"

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  • VelocinoxVelocinox Member UncommonPosts: 1,010
    Cecropia said:
    DMKano said:
    So pretty much what people are becoming in RL, glued to their smartphones, even when with family and friends.

    Kaboom!

    Here's a relevant post if I ever saw one. 

    Well done.
    He's got to get the posts out there so his zombie accounts can upvote him and keep his purple name.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    DMKano said:
    So pretty much what people are becoming in RL, glued to their smartphones, even when with family and friends.





    I had a really sad experience a while back.

    On a tube going to one of my projects when 6 girls (all around 13-14) got on and sat on the chairs around me. For the entire 35 mins of the trip they all sat next to each other glued to their phones and didn't once look up, look at each other or talk to each other. Made me feel really sad for the next generation.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    DMKano said:
    So pretty much what people are becoming in RL, glued to their smartphones, even when with family and friends.




    Says the guy currently playing 6 or 7 MMOs... where do you find the time? :)
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    DMKano said:
    So pretty much what people are becoming in RL, glued to their smartphones, even when with family and friends.





    I had a really sad experience a while back.

    On a tube going to one of my projects when 6 girls (all around 13-14) got on and sat on the chairs around me. For the entire 35 mins of the trip they all sat next to each other glued to their phones and didn't once look up, look at each other or talk to each other. Made me feel really sad for the next generation.
    Just wait until we get the ability to have that as an implant, or at least something operated with your thoughts.
    Everyone will always be connected while staring blankly like zombies. :D

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited January 2016

    Grouping in an MMO is a great mechanic on paper, but like communism, it goes awry when you try to execute it on a population.  Why? Because the current gaming population is, to put it kindly, a PITA to play with.  

    * They rush through content at 100MPH speed preventing others from enjoying the game at a more leisurely pace.  
    * They don't like to read quest and become rudely impatient when others want to read and follow quest lines and stories.
    * They dont want to play their roles in a manner that is reasonable and would maximize team effort.  
    * They don't listen to constructive criticism and want to argue with those who are genuinely trying to help them improve.  
    * They are inconsiderate, particularly when looting, often times leading to ninja looting of quest items that would be more appropriate for other classes.
    * They demand min-maxing builds and effort at all times when another may just simply want to enjoy themselves playing the game at leisure and have fun.
    * They play the game as if it were a job.
    * They are rude, immature, and condescending while chatting in group.
    * They play favoritism with others in group singling out group members instead of being fair and considerate of the entire group as a whole.
    * .... and on and on and on ....

    With all the BS and headaches that grouping brings, is there really any wonder why very few people want to group anymore?

    As many have already mentioned, the only people screaming that they still want to group are those same lonely people that often times want to instill their will and pushy mentality on others.  It wouldn't surprise me to learn that these are the same people no one wants to play with so they need some type of forced grouping game mechanic to force others to play with them.  If one is really so social and great to group with, I am certain they would have no problem not only making friends that they can call on to group with them on a whim, but that would also be tripping over themselves as soon as they logged on to group with them.


  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    All those problems are due to PUGS being the norm because people spend their entire game solo'ing and have no friends in game so use PUG systems.

    Join a guild or make friends and then grouping, tactics, taking time, smelling the roses etc are are possible.

    The problem isn't the grouping, it is the fact solo players don't understand why doing group content with strangers who also have no clue how to play together in a group will usually fail.

    The games I have played when I have joined a guild have been the most fun in an MMO. I am not by nature a social person so generally need to find a good guild (usually RP focused) if I want to experience the group content.

    That is why the selfish 'solo' playstyle annoys me so much because I change for the game I don't expect the game to change for me. If I want to enjoy the group content of a game I suck it up and make friends.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    DMKano said:

    Velocinox said:
    Cecropia said:
    DMKano said:
    So pretty much what people are becoming in RL, glued to their smartphones, even when with family and friends.

    Kaboom!

    Here's a relevant post if I ever saw one. 

    Well done.
    He's got to get the posts out there so his zombie accounts can upvote him and keep his purple name.

    One account.

    Ask the mods for verification if you dont believe me.

    The color and tile are irrelevant - post content is king. 


    very easy to circumvent if one chose to , and No they could not verify it ....
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited January 2016
    All those problems are due to PUGS being the norm because people spend their entire game solo'ing and have no friends in game so use PUG systems.

    Join a guild or make friends and then grouping, tactics, taking time, smelling the roses etc are are possible.

    The problem isn't the grouping, it is the fact solo players don't understand why doing group content with strangers who also have no clue how to play together in a group will usually fail.

    The games I have played when I have joined a guild have been the most fun in an MMO. I am not by nature a social person so generally need to find a good guild (usually RP focused) if I want to experience the group content.

    That is why the selfish 'solo' playstyle annoys me so much because I change for the game I don't expect the game to change for me. If I want to enjoy the group content of a game I suck it up and make friends.

    I appreciate your honesty when stating that the fact that you prefer grouping is because you are not naturally a social person.  So there you have a difference between yourself and many others who do not need the forced grouping mechanic to enjoy their games.  I suspect that others who prefer forced grouping are much like yourself.

    Your advantage, however, is that you are aware of the fact that you are not naturally a social person so it is incumbent upon yourself to find a guild so that you can enjoy the game the way you want instead of forcing that game play on others.

    BTW, PUGs should not be looked as a bad thing.  If the MMO in MMORPGs is something you are arguing for because it is a social game, then PUGs should be something you should support and promote because it is how the community comes together.  This elitist attitude that one should join a guild and only play with your guild is one the major problems contributing to the decline of the MMORPG genre.  

    An MMO is about making friends and getting along with an entire community, not barricading yourself in a guild and only socializing with that guild group only and labeling those players who are freelancing the game as "PUGs who don't know jack."  That's almost as bad as playing solo, the only difference being that you do it on a guild-wise basis.  Players in those PUGs are the players you need to be playing with, educating, and reaching out to if in fact your objective is to have an MMO in which people can group freely and often and have fun while doing so.  
     
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327

    Tamanous said:
    The issue isn't that some mmos adopted a single player experience as their main design goal. 

    The issue is that true mmorpgs also adopted this design principle as the expense of their original design and thus vanished from the landscape. Too many of these games jump on the solo bandwagon because it was more profitable until the mmo space became saturated. 

    They forced themselves out of their very own genre!

    Many of us simply want a more classic (yet evolved) mmorpg choice because of this. It isn't about asking all mmos to suddenly revert back because we'd see the same issue of saturation. Currently we nearly completely lack a choice for such social, group heavy mmos OR fully open and explorable worlds (AC was very solo friendly but it's game play style is all but equally vanished due to higher graphic, low population zoning which killed this concept).



    EXACTLY!

    Except no one is keeping you from grouping to your hearts content if that is what you want to do.  Get out there, start whispering people, get your groups together, and have at it.  

    What people are against is "forced grouping."
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Distopia said:
     



    This mentality is just perplexing..  A good MMORPG should have things to do when friends aren't around, or when you feel like doing your own thing (story-lines as one example work for that). NO part of MMO means you must do all things with people all of the time.
    I like doing both stuff on my own and stuff in a group.

    My point was, people that ONLY want to play solo in am MMO are the ones with issues from my point of view.
    Fair enough. I personally almost always play in at least a small group (wife and old roommate) probably because I have that option, which isn't the case for everyone.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • VelocinoxVelocinox Member UncommonPosts: 1,010
    DMKano said:

    Velocinox said:
    Cecropia said:
    DMKano said:
    So pretty much what people are becoming in RL, glued to their smartphones, even when with family and friends.

    Kaboom!

    Here's a relevant post if I ever saw one. 

    Well done.
    He's got to get the posts out there so his zombie accounts can upvote him and keep his purple name.

    One account.

    Ask the mods for verification if you dont believe me.

    The color and tile are irrelevant - post content is king. 


    Its not the color I have a problem with it is your post content. You do drive-by snark comments that sound like politicians spewing mindless rhetoric to their faithful. Like "build a wall around 'murica" from a conservative or "melt down all guns" from a liberal.

    It's happy-feel words that add nothing to the discussion.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220


    I appreciate your honesty when stating that the fact that you prefer grouping is because you are not naturally a social person.  So there you have a difference between yourself and many others who do not need the forced grouping mechanic to enjoy their games.  I suspect that others who prefer forced grouping are much like yourself.

    Your advantage, however, is that you are aware of the fact that you are not naturally a social person so it is incumbent upon yourself to find a guild so that you can enjoy the game the way you want instead of forcing that game play on others.

    BTW, PUGs should not be looked as a bad thing.  If the MMO in MMORPGs is something you are arguing for because it is a social game, then PUGs should be something you should support and promote because it is how the community comes together.  This elitist attitude that one should join a guild and only play with your guild is one the major problems contributing to the decline of the MMORPG genre.  An MMO is about making friends and getting along with an entire community, not barricading yourself in a guild and only socializing with that guild group and labeling those players who are freelancing the game as "PUGs who don't know jack."  Players in those PUGs are the players you need to be playing with, educating, and reaching out to if in fact your objective is to have an MMO in which people can group freely and often and have fun while doing so.  
     
    You misread me.

    I do not prefer grouping because I am not a social person. I did not say anything about forced grouping either.

    For me grouping is optional. If I want to experience the group content then I will find a group to do so. I won't throw my toys out of the pram and demand I get easy mode to experience it.

    I group up to experience group content. I am totally happy to play the game and not experience group content and won't stop others who want to have group content available.

    It is a choice. I either accept I cannot play the entire game if I play solo or group up/join a guild and do the social thing (which I am fine doing I just prefer my own company). It isn't forced gameplay it is a choice to experience it by meeting the requirements to play. It is no different from having minimum requirements to do a solo quest like 'must complete x quest to continue', you just need to have other players to continue.

    And PUGS would work fine IF most players didn't play the game solo and have no clue how to play their character let alone in a group. It is hard to educate other players when for the most part you can't even get an 'hello' from them in a PUG.

    Guilds and friends list are both useful for finding other players with who you can do the group conternt with and generally speaking are created/joined through trial and error.

    Browser grinding to halt....
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    goboygo said:
    Isn't that 90% of all MMO's being made today?
    Let's hope so. Isn't choices great?
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775


    Or are they genius because so many fell for it?
    Of course this.

    Tell me, do you think they care about some random internet dude calling them names, or the millions they are making?

    In fact, i bet if we don't call ESO a MMO (just call it a co-op RPG with MP modes), then you will have no problem soloing it. At the end of the day, if soloing this game is fun, isn't it a bit "retarded" to care what the label is?
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    I started playing mmorpgs as a solo player as in by myself so that I could play with other players.... 

    I feel there should be content that requires groups. I don't believe that all group content should require TS though. Let me give a couple examples. I remember going to the Redridge Mountains as a WoW newb back in the day. There were areas of Redridge that heavily encouraged grouping. The orcs in the back? You didn't need TS to handle it though. A couple people in the area would come along and you would do it together. 

    Looking to today, Wrothgar in ESO. I think they missed a great opportunity to include some casual grouping content with the public dungeons there. They are a tad bit to easy to need others, and a walk in the park with others. The public dungeons there should be something that when you see another player come along you're like "Hell yeah", and they're like "Hell yeah". No TS required, but grouping heavily encouraged. 
  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    edited January 2016
    A label is a description used to easily classify and categorise an object. [mod edit]
    Post edited by Vaross on
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    edited January 2016
    A label is a description used to easily classify and categorise an object. [mod edit]
    yeah .. it is pretty easy to use the game list on this site. I wonder why some just refuses to do so .. even when they tout that labels should be "easy". 

    I suppose people are not as logical or consistent as they want to believe. 
    Post edited by Vaross on
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Torval said:
    DMKano said:
    So pretty much what people are becoming in RL, glued to their smartphones, even when with family and friends.




    Do you, your family, and friends all sit around and post together on mmorpg.com?  Do you raid topics together?
    I lol'd

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Gaming.Rocks2Gaming.Rocks2 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    Velocinox said:
    Cecropia said:
    DMKano said:
    So pretty much what people are becoming in RL, glued to their smartphones, even when with family and friends.

    Kaboom!

    Here's a relevant post if I ever saw one. 

    Well done.
    He's got to get the posts out there so his zombie accounts can upvote him and keep his purple name.
    That statement is entitled for more recognition. 


    Gaming Rocks next gen. community for last gen. gamers launching soon. 
  • Gaming.Rocks2Gaming.Rocks2 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    Torval said:
    DMKano said:
    So pretty much what people are becoming in RL, glued to their smartphones, even when with family and friends.




    Do you, your family, and friends all sit around and post together on mmorpg.com? Do you raid topics together? Do you have them log onto their own accounts and forum pvp with you? Or do you do that by yourself?

    Playing solo allows me to stop whatever I'm doing and interact with my family. It allows me to help my wife when she needs it or carry on a conversation with her instead of a pretend internet game friend. It allows me to play around with my kids and let them try my characters out.

    Please do tell how often your family and friends sit next to you in real life and while you're in a big raid or pvp session? Can you get up and interact with the people around you while doing committed group activities? If anything the "glued to the device" mentality is what people have to do while they're doing group content.

    There's nothing wrong with that, but please don't posture and throw stones like you're above it.

    Yeah that's why my family prefer single player games. But I believe that's not the issue @DMKano is addressing. 

    You prefer solo because you are in a group somewhere else. You had a normal life, normal interactions with people. The next generation (or the next-next generation in your case grandpa - joking!!!) is having a very different experience. 

    I was just telling a friend of mine that in our time we said "He sold his car and paid off my debt. He's a true friend, I will make it up to him." Now is "He likes all my posts on Facebook, he always retweets me - gee I never had a better friend XOXO." That is happening. 

    On the other hand virtual era is most likely on its way. Like many other tech stuff, games were the gateway to this. Now these games are training the pioneers of virtual era to be self-dependent and not in a good way. They don't need social interactions to progress, they don't need to be nice. These games are rewarding anti-social behavior, egotism, elitism (again not in a good way), etc. I'm not saying knowingly, nor all games do it at the same level. 

    It's true that playing an MMO is kinda like hanging out in a social network. But that's not how it blossomed in the first place. People liked playing video games, so they wanted to share this experience with more people. Hence came the MMOs. And you can have a way more meaningful relationship with someone in an MMO compared to a social network. MMOs relationships are (or at least were) closer to RL. Social networks are replacing the basis of relationships to something else. Now MMOs are getting closer to what social networks are. 

    I remember before ESO release some dev said guilds are like social networks in ESO. I scratched my eyes out. I never wanted to hear those two words in one sentence. 
    Gaming Rocks next gen. community for last gen. gamers launching soon. 
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    edited January 2016
    @Gaming.Rocks 

    Your post and generally pessimistic outlook on where we are and where we're heading reminded me of an old favorite Asimov novel from the robot series, The Naked Sun, published in 1956.

    This is a short description of the setting in the world of Solaria:

    "The book focuses on the unusual traditions and culture of Solarian society: the planet has a rigidly controlled population of twenty thousand, and robots outnumber humans ten thousand to one, whereas people are strictly taught from birth to despise personal contact, and live on huge estates, either alone or with their spouse only. Communication is done via holographic telepresence (called viewing, as opposed to in-person seeing)." 

    Although in general, I agree with what you're saying about the social experience in early MMOs and how different that was compared to present day social networks, I feel obliged to point out that you're just expressing a preference for one type of virtual experience vs. another and neither is the equal of RL social experiences.

    I happen to have a 17 year old daughter. Yes, she texts a lot more than either I or her 32 yr. old brother do, and keeps in touch with her friends constantly. The funny thing though is that 99% of her texts are to people she also socializes with in RL, she does not play video games like I and my son do but loves board games. She is also a voracious reader - something she shares with me, her mother and my son, but she actually prefers real analog books unlike the rest of us.

    And she's not all that unique. Most of her circle of friends have similar preferences... it's like a mini-counterculture rebellion against virtual presence socializing with remote strangers we all thought was so "far out" "rad" "awesome" etc., depending on our generations' superlative du jour.

    So I wouldn't go projecting too far into the future just yet about where things are headed. I think the kids who are growing up with all this tech and virtual presence around them have a much more realistic and casual attitude towards it than we did at their age. It's old hat and not terribly important to them. RL is where they spend most of their time and only use virtual presence to enhance it, not replace it.

    Her generation is one hell of a lot more likely to adopt Google Glass over the Oculus Rift.


    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332


    When you buy a single player game there is no cash shops,that is all the money the develoepr makes,by calling itself a mmo  and adding in the login screen,they now are basiclally saying "i hope we can rip off this customer for a few more bucks".

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985
    Personally I'm an introvert who would like to see at least a few MMOs that are intended primarily for solo players, and have no content where players who would like to avoid grouping are at a big disadvantage.  I like other people enough to play in the same world as them, and have conversations with them, and trade with them, but I really feel no need to fight, or worse travel, in a group.  Combat is supposed to be a strategic puzzle, and I don't want other people mucking about in the middle of _my_ puzzle.
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • Gaming.Rocks2Gaming.Rocks2 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    Iselin said:
    @Gaming.Rocks 

    Your post and generally pessimistic outlook on where we are and where we're heading reminded me of an old favorite Asimov novel from the robot series, The Naked Sun, published in 1956.

    This is a short description of the setting in the world of Solaria:

    "The book focuses on the unusual traditions and culture of Solarian society: the planet has a rigidly controlled population of twenty thousand, and robots outnumber humans ten thousand to one, whereas people are strictly taught from birth to despise personal contact, and live on huge estates, either alone or with their spouse only. Communication is done via holographic telepresence (called viewing, as opposed to in-person seeing)." 

    Although in general, I agree with what you're saying about the social experience in early MMOs and how different that was compared to present day social networks, I feel obliged to point out that you're just expressing a preference for one type of virtual experience vs. another and neither is the equal of RL social experiences.

    I happen to have a 17 year old daughter. Yes, she texts a lot more than either I or her 32 yr. old brother do, and keeps in touch with her friends constantly. The funny thing though is that 99% of her texts are to people she also socializes with in RL, she does not play video games like I and my son do but loves board games. She is also a voracious reader - something she shares with me, her mother and my son, but she actually prefers real analog books unlike the rest of us.

    And she's not all that unique. Most of her circle of friends have similar preferences... it's like a mini-counterculture rebellion against virtual presence socializing with remote strangers we all thought was so "far out" "rad" "awesome" etc., depending on our generations' superlative du jour.

    So I wouldn't go projecting too far into the future just yet about where things are headed. I think the kids who are growing up with all this tech and virtual presence around them have a much more realistic and casual attitude towards it than we did at their age. It's old hat and not terribly important to them. RL is where they spend most of their time and only use virtual presence to enhance it, not replace it.

    Her generation is one hell of a lot more likely to adopt Google Glass over the Oculus Rift.


    I've read that book, I have made a reference about it here on another similar topic as well, gg ;)

    I'm not saying virtuality is a bad thing. The problem isn't the tech itself, but the culture. 
    Let me make an example: 

    It used to be a decent thing to call up your friend on his/her birthday. You heard their voice, expressed feelings, they heard yours, very different human relation.
    Then you sent emails. Less feelings are attached to emails. Then came the greeting cards, it became less personal. Then you even had services that sent those cards for you on the dates so you didn't even have to care anymore. Convenient? Yes. But how does that really affect a society after a way longer period?

    You know you should make the call. But in future generations it becomes the norm just to text. It affects "humanity" forever, not in a good way. It becomes the norm that instead of experiencing an event, video it and share it on Facebook. Instead of expressing a feeling, clicking on a life button. It doesn't affect us much. Becomes these are just extra maybe convenient tools for us. But not for the ones that haven't experienced the world differently. 

    The example you made about your daughter and her circle of friends is right. But in social sciences you treat case-studies and predictions very differently. 

    And how all of this relevant to mmorpg.com? Because same thing is happening in virtual worlds. It's not even going to be The Naked Sun anymore, we won't even interact with each others avatars in future :)


    Gaming Rocks next gen. community for last gen. gamers launching soon. 
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,164
    When I read Naked Sun I was so sure it would never happen. I was a teenager and I could not imagine that world in spite of my love for science fiction . Now I no longer think that anymore.

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