Hmm nothing to do with this topic but I noticed narius has been banned is that for good then ? Or just temporary ? He has been spamming a lot of threads with his radical views but I never recalled him being particularly ban worthy. Wonder why he got banned.
Okay, wow, I didn't expect this thread to blow up so much. I'll try to respond to everything, but as you can imagine, I won't be quoting a whole lot.
So, a lot of people are saying that gaming hasn't changed, that I'm the real issue... and I call bullshit. So, let's look at some of my older favorite games, like Majora's Mask, OoT (played it so many times I can't forget it), SM64, SMSS, Twilight Princess and so on. if I take a long enough break that I forget a lot of the solutions, and forget all the minor details in the story, I can have a blast! But, once I play them, they're just not fun anymore, since I know what's going to happen. Now, let's look at a more modern game that I picked up recently, and got quickly bored of: Fallout 4. Oh sure, it was fun for a little while, but after maybe 20 hours, I just got so tired of it that I couldn't play anymore. Haven't even started the game for well over a month. Now, I played WoW for 10 years and loved it, and then Draenor came out and ruined everything for me. No, it wasn't super hard, but it was fun. The classes were interesting, the lore was fantastic, and the world felt alive. So, I went and tried other MMOs. I got to max level, started raiding, and just got bored. You hear of Wildstar? I got bored on my first character by the time I hit level 20. Eventually I maxed every class (I had nothing else to play or do, so why not?), and got into raiding almost every day. The first time was fun, since I had never done it, but after wiping 10-20 times, I just got bored. The fights were pathetic, very predictable, and not at all fun. Combine that with very spammy, repetitive combat, and the game just wasn't fun.
I tried GW2, and while it was fun at first, the lack of content just drove me away. I tried FFXIV, and the 2.5s GCD that basically eliminated any effort made the game boring. I tried TERA, and the fact that it was basically porn, coupled with spammy, repetitive combat, just made me leave. I tried RIFT, but it just felt clunky, and didn't really flow all that well. I tried Blade and Soul, but I can only click my left mouse button so many times before it gets old.
So, yeah, gaming has changed. Just a bit. I can go back to the games I enjoyed in the past, and still enjoy them. However, I just can't enjoy a game that has nothing to enjoy. Rose-tinted goggles have nothing to do with it, it's just that I don't find games with no story, no dynamic combat (as in, you do more than spam 1-5 buttons), absurd sexualization, and no real effort of any kind put in to be fun. Sure, most people these days do, but then they don't really know what a quality game looks like, or what engaging combat is.
Next, a lot of people seem to think I'm insulting them with my whole moron comment. Honestly, I kind of am. These days, entertainment across the board is designed with the lowest intelligence in mind, so that a child or special needs person could throw money at the developer/producer/whatever. So, when we have all these games that are just absolutely pathetic, I can't help but get bored with them. Though so many people tell me that these games are so hard, so fun, all that... if I had 50 points shaved off my IQ, maybe I could learn to love things again. There would be TV shows I enjoy, books that I find worth reading, games I actually have fun playing... life would be a lot better, that's for sure. So, I'm not directly insulting anyone, but I am at the same time, if that makes sense.
And about hard games: Dark Souls? Please. I played Dark Souls 1 without internet (didn't have Live at the time, rarely played Xbox), and beat it with little to no issue. Dark Souls 2 I played without a shield, and did the entire game while dual-wielding cestis (you know, minimum range, no blocking, nothing) and wearing light armor. There was only ever one boss that I summoned people for, and did the rest on my own, again with little to no issue. So, please, don't tell me that Dark Souls is some shining example of a challenging game. Once you learn the pattern and spot the tells, you really can't lose. Though, honestly, I can't really think of a game that was truly challenging for me. I loved WoW, I loved Zelda, loved Mario, Pokemon, all those... none of them were hard, but they were fun. And that's what a lot of games forgot how to do, is make fun content regardless of difficulty.
But, yeah, some good games do exist, but they're very far and few between -- and most of them are on such small budgets that they last for all of 8 hours or so, or aren't fully fleshed out. Like, Ori and the Blind Forest. That game was a blast, and I couldn't put it down! And when the artists hand-paint every bit of the landscape, and there's no copy-pasting like in a lot of other games, you can tell they care about their game, and are willing to go the extra mile to ensure the game is the best they can do. But, it just wasn't all that hard, so I ended up finishing the game (with 100% completion) in ~8.5 hours. And, while I could pick it up and play it again sometime down the road, it just wouldn't be as much fun, since I would know the story, and all the solutions to everything. So, sure, some good games do exist still, but they're one in a million. And, once those companies get a taste of the money potential, they go corrupt.
However, I've never seen any good MMOs come out in the last 10 years or so. They're either just badly done (RIFT, etc.), are incredibly boring (TERA, FFXIV, BnS) or just don't have any kind of content available beyond what comes in the box (GW2, etc.). I've tried almost every MMO you can think of, trying to find a game to fill the void and a place to call home... but it just seems like none exist anymore. So I have single-player games that last me 8-10 hours on average, and League (which, honestly, is boring, but it's better than staring at wall and sleeping when I'm not working).
I just wish people weren't so greedy. I miss having new games to look forward to. I miss having TV shows that I'd get up on Saturdays to watch with my family or stay up on Friday night to watch. I miss having books to read when I didn't feel like doing anything... Things were better. But, life is full of change, and not always for the better.
Hmm nothing to do with this topic but I noticed narius has been banned is that for good then ? Or just temporary ? He has been spamming a lot of threads with his radical views but I never recalled him being particularly ban worthy. Wonder why he got banned.
I don't mind radical views. It is when one can not discuss them that makes things bad. nariusseldon refused to discuss his views.
How many people in this thread suggest they are unhappy because someone else isn't doing enough to make them happy?
And how many of those people are completely oblivious to how they are guaranteed to be unhappy because of that behavior, and not because of anybody else's actions or inactions?
Post edited by eye_m on
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Hmm nothing to do with this topic but I noticed narius has been banned is that for good then ? Or just temporary ? He has been spamming a lot of threads with his radical views but I never recalled him being particularly ban worthy. Wonder why he got banned.
I don't wonder at all... what I wonder about is why it took so long for something that obvious.
I do admit he is obnoxious but rarely have I seen him use foul language or abuse anyone unless his pig headedness and constant spamming in threads have finally caught up. I am not trying to defend him but I have seen far more worthy candidates for bans still strutting about. Guess he must have tried one too many person's patience and bit it.
I shall end this here as I don't want to be brought up for discussing bans.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Don't worry about Narius, he'll be back soon I'm sure.
Don't know about that. I do believe the banned picture replacement means permanent now. At least I'm pretty sure I saw a post by @MikeB saying that a few weeks back.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Don't worry about Narius, he'll be back soon I'm sure.
Don't know about that. I do believe the banned picture replacement means permanent now. At least I'm pretty sure I saw a post by @MikeB saying that a few weeks back.
Not like it's going to stop him from creating a new account...
It will be painfully obvious if he does; can't imagine he'd be able to switch up his style enough to go unnoticed. I've personally caught a couple of people over the years doing just that, I reported them, the mods took care of the rest.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
How many people in this thread suggest they are unhappy because someone else isn't doing enough to make them happy?
And how many of those people are completely oblivious to how they are guaranteed to be unhappy because of that behavior, and not because of anybody else's actions or inactions?
I'm sure quite a few. Back when I played the older MMORPGs, I counted on no one else for my happiness. I could not wait to get off of work and log in again. I had no qualms about paying $15 each month, knowing I was going to get my moneys worth that month. I did this for years. That was just the way it was.
Today, this is no longer the way of things for me. Sure, I can find fun an MMO(no RPG), but there is no "chomping at the bit" to log back in once I log out. I can't justify paying for them anymore, though I would dearly like to. The thing is, I never had to worry about "fun" before. It just happened. This is no longer the case for me, though I'm sure others disagree. I'm not "counting anyone" for my enjoyment. It's just no longer there.
PS: Enough about "the banned poster." Does he warrant continued attention?
How many people in this thread suggest they are unhappy because someone else isn't doing enough to make them happy?
And how many of those people are completely oblivious to how they are guaranteed to be unhappy because of that behavior, and not because of anybody else's actions or inactions?
I'm sure quite a few. Back when I played the older MMORPGs, I counted on no one else for my happiness. I could not wait to get off of work and log in again. I had no qualms about paying $15 each month, knowing I was going to get my moneys worth that month. I did this for years. That was just the way it was.
Today, this is no longer the way of things for me. Sure, I can find fun an MMO(no RPG), but there is no "chomping at the bit" to log back in once I log out. I can't justify paying for them anymore, though I would dearly like to. The thing is, I never had to worry about "fun" before. It just happened. This is no longer the case for me, though I'm sure others disagree. I'm not "counting anyone" for my enjoyment. It's just no longer there.
PS: Enough about "the banned poster." Does he warrant continued attention?
Except.....you mentioned him again. Sort of like when at work someone accidently sends an email to a distribution list of thousands, then people reply to all asking to be removed from the email chain generating perhaps dozens of extra emails to delete them from the email chain.
But the best ones are those who reply to all after that, telling everyone not to reply to all....which results in more people asking to be removed , the hilarity can go on for half a day or more, until a very senior manager yet again replies to all, threatening anyone else who replies to all with punishment for doing it again.
But back on topic, a very well beaten dead horse on this forum.
Yes, they don't make MMORPGS like they used to, unless an indie breaks thru likely they never will be made like that again.
You can play an existing older title like I do, learn to find the fun in the newer designs, walk away completely, and of course bemoan their passing by posting in the regular new threads here on MMORPG.com, one of my favorite pastimes as many will tell you.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ever since I was little, like 3-4 years old, I've loved gaming. Even if I didn't know what was going on, I still had fun. The older I got, the more I fell in love with gaming, and it stuck with me throughout my entire life (22 now). But, lately I've been seeing a trend. It's been happening for 10-12 years or so now, but I just chose to pretend like it didn't exist. But, gaming was dying, and is now buried for years.
Where before games were developed by people who loved what they did, now they're developed by greedy suits who really don't give a damn, so long as you shovel money into their mouths -- even companies that held on to what really mattered for so long eventually succumbed to their greed (Nintendo in particular). New companies pop up every now and then and develop a truly good game, but then the success gets to them, and they start down the wallet-humping path. Quality just isn't really all that important anymore, and that's apparent everywhere you look.
Now we also have a more recent trend called F2P, and its cousin DLC. Both are just the epitome of greedy, underhanded business methods; in an F2P game, you release a game that has no soul or life to it (but that's okay 'cause it's free, right?), and charge people to even enjoy themselves. You focus so much on milking the cash shop and all that, that you forget about the game itself. So, you trade a quality product for nickel and diming. In DLC, you might release a good game, but you pull parts of it out and resell it as "additional content." I remember when DLC used to be akin to expansions, adding NEW content that wasn't pulled out of the game / should have already been in by default.
Challenge. Remember that word? The current generation of gamers doesn't want to ever hear or see that word, and throws tantrums any time a game hints at it (thanks, society), so every game is built without challenge. Where before you'd wipe to a raid boss for hours before figuring out how to beat it, now you just beat it straight up, 'cause that's fun apparently. Where before you had to actually be good at the game to progress, now you just win by default, since everyone is a winner. Where combat was fast-paced, mechanically intensive and required an amount of thought and effort, now we have flashy, brainless combat that, while fast-paced, is ultimately boring because it's just a spamfest.
I donno. Just don't really feel like any companies out there really care anymore. Gaming isn't what it used to be, and now it's just a big cash grab. It's almost enough to make me cry, watching my childhood hobby die in front of me, and knowing there's nothing you can do about it. While I'd like to believe some company will come out (or I'll make my own company) that will challenge other companies to actually care... who am I kidding? Gaming just isn't meant for people like me.
Sometimes, I hate having a brain. If I was a moron, all these games would be fun. You know, I used to dream of developing my own games, composing my own
soundtracks, telling my own stories... I just don't know anymore. Childhood dreams are silly anyway.
I hear ya brother, and the worst part is the players defending the crap that is being produced.
Some people are just so ego centric, small minded and unaware that they cannot believe or accept that people may have different likes and tastes then they do.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
There's still plenty of good games in the market, old games and new. I agree with OP about the greed part, yes there's definitely some games that take a hit in quality because companies just want to get sales. But the gaming industry is an INDUSTRY, so that's bound to happen. OP, corporate greed is nothing new, I just think you've grown up a bit and started to notice that those sorts of things exist. I think the games haven't changed quite as much as you've developed a new perception/understanding of what makes the games possible. Like a bad episode of "How it's made" where you're left upset instead of intrigued.
Not only defending, but telling other people to shut up and play. I suppose could just turn my brain off like everyone else, but I still prefer to think for myself and come to my own conclusions while questioning things. I guess I'm not a very good American. But hey, at least it makes me a great programmer
Problem is you're not thinking for yourself. You're just a part of this extremely negative group of gamers who think every developer is trying to bleed every last dollar from their pockets. That every decision is made by some big shot CEO completely out of touch with the gaming industry. That developers are no longer passionate about the games they make and are only in the business for the money.
You are no less close-minded than the people you are criticizing.
There's still plenty of good games in the market, old games and new. I agree with OP about the greed part, yes there's definitely some games that take a hit in quality because companies just want to get sales. But the gaming industry is an INDUSTRY, so that's bound to happen. OP, corporate greed is nothing new, I just think you've grown up a bit and started to notice that those sorts of things exist. I think the games haven't changed quite as much as you've developed a new perception/understanding of what makes the games possible. Like a bad episode of "How it's made" where you're left upset instead of intrigued.
Both players and companies were different back then. Maybe It was due to gaming not yet drawing the attention of suits and whales at the time.
I think a big part of that is that the market audience for gaming has extended heavily towards casuals because a lot, and I mean a LOT more people play video games these days than say, the late 90's. With such a large market filled with easy to please customers willing to throw their coin at less than passionate developers, there's simply less incentive to put everything they can into making a quality product for the consumer. [Insert the era of cash crop game developments]
It's easy to forget that the gamer's who have a real passion for gaming and don't just do it as a way to kill time a couple times a week, are a heavy minority now. So when we talk about boycotting projects that we don't see as delivering something good, I think that even if a lot of people share those concerns in boards like these, it doesn't do much to detour developers from seeing $$$green with their primary audience.
Just the same, passionate developers are harder to find as they convert to a development formula aimed at the mass market. Although that could be seen as simply a change in passions. Developers who do care about the user experience are still around, probably in approximate relative size to the smaller, life-long gamer crowd that they want to represent in their games. We're a tough block to please, though. So it makes a certain amount of sense that more and more give up and go the way of aiming for the larger audience.
Not only defending, but telling other people to shut up and play. I suppose could just turn my brain off like everyone else, but I still prefer to think for myself and come to my own conclusions while questioning things. I guess I'm not a very good American. But hey, at least it makes me a great programmer
Problem is you're not thinking for yourself. You're just a part of this extremely negative group of gamers who think every developer is trying to bleed every last dollar from their pockets. That every decision is made by some big shot CEO completely out of touch with the gaming industry. That developers are no longer passionate about the games they make and are only in the business for the money.
You are no less close-minded than the people you are criticizing.
I find it annoying when people constantly talk about how modern game developers are only in it for the money. If you're developing games out of "greed" you don't invest hundreds of millions making an online RPG or MMORPG. You spend that money putting Arnold in a commercial which vaguely references your crappy mobile clone game during the NFL playoffs.
There's still plenty of good games in the market, old games and new. I agree with OP about the greed part, yes there's definitely some games that take a hit in quality because companies just want to get sales. But the gaming industry is an INDUSTRY, so that's bound to happen. OP, corporate greed is nothing new, I just think you've grown up a bit and started to notice that those sorts of things exist. I think the games haven't changed quite as much as you've developed a new perception/understanding of what makes the games possible. Like a bad episode of "How it's made" where you're left upset instead of intrigued.
Both players and companies were different back then. Maybe It was due to gaming not yet drawing the attention of suits and whales at the time.
I think a big part of that is that the market audience for gaming has extended heavily towards casuals because a lot, and I mean a LOT more people play video games these days than say, the late 90's. With such a large market filled with easy to please customers willing to throw their coin at less than passionate developers, there's simply less incentive to put everything they can into making a quality product for the consumer. [Insert the era of cash crop game developments]
It's easy to forget that the gamer's who have a real passion for gaming and don't just do it as a way to kill time a couple times a week, are a heavy minority now. So when we talk about boycotting projects that we don't see as delivering something good, I think that even if a lot of people share those concerns in boards like these, it doesn't do much to detour developers from seeing $$$green with their primary audience.
Companies definitely want our money and support as well. Look at how CIG advertise their cash shop game as a "true PC game". If we stopped supporting current games with time and money, their appeal will decrease for the casuals, so some of them will stop as well, creating a snowball effect. Casuals won't keep the current state of the industry alive because they won't be satisfied with what it offers without us playing.
That's definitely a perk to being a vocal minority. We interact as a community more, so we're certainly more transparent to journalists, development teams, etc. It makes me wonder if that whole #gamergate scandal was fueled so heavily to break the credibility of this smaller segment of the industry. Nah, probably just a femnazi backlash...
But surely there's a leak in the industry that compels developers to change their focus to the mass market. Our best bet is patching as many holes as we can to keep as many of the few good developers around working for us. In that light, I think the VR hype is very real. I'm seeing it as something that could merge a bit of the larger crowd with the smaller crowd of hardore gamers. And since it's fresh, there may be a new emphasis on quality games, that can simultaneously cater to both the hardcore and casual's who want to try virtual reality.
There's still a lot of innovation yet to be seen in the gaming industry, so that's pretty good news.
Comments
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
VG
How many people in this thread suggest they are unhappy because someone else isn't doing enough to make them happy?
And how many of those people are completely oblivious to how they are guaranteed to be unhappy because of that behavior, and not because of anybody else's actions or inactions?
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
I shall end this here as I don't want to be brought up for discussing bans.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yup, he can't quit the forums!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Today, this is no longer the way of things for me. Sure, I can find fun an MMO(no RPG), but there is no "chomping at the bit" to log back in once I log out. I can't justify paying for them anymore, though I would dearly like to. The thing is, I never had to worry about "fun" before. It just happened. This is no longer the case for me, though I'm sure others disagree. I'm not "counting anyone" for my enjoyment. It's just no longer there.
PS: Enough about "the banned poster." Does he warrant continued attention?
VG
But the best ones are those who reply to all after that, telling everyone not to reply to all....which results in more people asking to be removed , the hilarity can go on for half a day or more, until a very senior manager yet again replies to all, threatening anyone else who replies to all with punishment for doing it again.
But back on topic, a very well beaten dead horse on this forum.
Yes, they don't make MMORPGS like they used to, unless an indie breaks thru likely they never will be made like that again.
You can play an existing older title like I do, learn to find the fun in the newer designs, walk away completely, and of course bemoan their passing by posting in the regular new threads here on MMORPG.com, one of my favorite pastimes as many will tell you.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You are no less close-minded than the people you are criticizing.
It's easy to forget that the gamer's who have a real passion for gaming and don't just do it as a way to kill time a couple times a week, are a heavy minority now. So when we talk about boycotting projects that we don't see as delivering something good, I think that even if a lot of people share those concerns in boards like these, it doesn't do much to detour developers from seeing $$$green with their primary audience.
Just the same, passionate developers are harder to find as they convert to a development formula aimed at the mass market. Although that could be seen as simply a change in passions. Developers who do care about the user experience are still around, probably in approximate relative size to the smaller, life-long gamer crowd that they want to represent in their games. We're a tough block to please, though. So it makes a certain amount of sense that more and more give up and go the way of aiming for the larger audience.
But surely there's a leak in the industry that compels developers to change their focus to the mass market. Our best bet is patching as many holes as we can to keep as many of the few good developers around working for us. In that light, I think the VR hype is very real. I'm seeing it as something that could merge a bit of the larger crowd with the smaller crowd of hardore gamers. And since it's fresh, there may be a new emphasis on quality games, that can simultaneously cater to both the hardcore and casual's who want to try virtual reality.
There's still a lot of innovation yet to be seen in the gaming industry, so that's pretty good news.