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BDO a misunderstood flawed masterpiece

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  • ArChWindArChWind Member UncommonPosts: 1,340
    ArChWind said:


    Kind of ironic though I don't see it supporting PvP long term either. PvP is just as boring as PvE so that is probably why early on it was kind of 'game will die anyway'.
    One that's not what irony means.  Two the PVP mechanics aren't fully implemented yet.  They are waiting for the game to mature and let guilds build up before turning it on.
    I don't follow you here. Right now 45+ is just a gankfest of players taking player grind spots and all kinds of miss conduct like PK afk fishers in combat zones, destroying players fighting world bosses.

    It is PvP is it not?

    ArChWind — MMORPG.com Forums

    If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800
    I am not against PvP in games, I am against non-consensual PvP in MMORPGs.  There is a difference.  I am an advocate for choice and giving players the option to play the game in a way that is enjoyable to them. 
    So eliminating pirates, the concept of banditry, pirate island and the karma mechanic isn't a fundamental game change to you?  lol okay.
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited March 2016
    I am not against PvP in games, I am against non-consensual PvP in MMORPGs.  There is a difference.  I am an advocate for choice and giving players the option to play the game in a way that is enjoyable to them. 
    So eliminating pirates, the concept of banditry, pirate island and the karma mechanic isn't a fundamental game change to you?  lol okay.

    That option would still remain for those who enjoy this type of game play from a non-consensual stand point. That will not change for them.  It would only change in the channel that offered the option to flag for PvP if they so chose to engage in it.  Even that channel would play similar to the more hard-core channels that offered non-consensual PvP.  Again, the only difference would be that it would be consensual (flag) as opposed to non-consensual, and it would only be on the single channel, or channels, if the demand for it warrants it.  

    Relax and read people, no one is taking your choice to play the game you want to play it. This would only be giving others a choice as well.  That is good for the game.  The more people playing it, the more profit for the game to develop and succeed.
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,081
    The game is overhyped and people are desperate for there to be a "great" game after so many failures and lackluster games coming onto the market.  We see this overtime a game is released and reviewed dubiously by tech press or other gamers.  We see this pretty rampantly in the ESO forums, for example, as it was the latest example before BDO to release and sort of let down the people who got hyped up for it.

    The OP's "You're playing it wrong" dissertation is hilarious, though...
  • AzmodeusAzmodeus Member UncommonPosts: 268
    edited March 2016
    It is safe to say DMKano is butthurt about this game.  Go play AA with your guild if you hate it so much.  I love how you think anything you say is gospel.  lol
      OMG I am Ancient!
  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800
    edited March 2016


    That option would still remain for those who enjoy this type of game play from a non-consensual stand point. That will not change for them.  It would only change in the channel that offered the option to flag for PvP if they so chose to engage in it.  Even that channel would play similar to the more hard-core channels that offered non-consensual PvP.  Again, the only difference would be that it would be consensual (flag) as opposed to non-consensual, and it would only be on the single channel, or channels, if the demand for it warrants it.
    Well what you're really asking for is a new server with a new ruleset.  Not a channel.  A channel wouldn't work because people would exploit it.  They would jump to that channel and do all their crafting there.  It would destroy the game.  As for a server with a completely different ruleset that fundamentally changes the end game?  I wouldn't do it if I was Pearl Abyss.  Why take that risk?  No territory control.  No guilds declaring war on other guilds.  No banditry, so no real risk in trade.  All karma mechanics become useless, so throw out all items and game design for that.  Pirate Island becomes a novelty.  People join that server thinking it's a viable fun option to play (after all the company is encouraging it by creating the server), only to find out that there isn't the game design functionality to support what you suggest.  That means you have a bunch of unhappy players. 


    Disagreeing with you, doesn't mean people aren't understanding you or angry.  It means that people understand core concepts of the game and see how your suggestion won't work.  I noticed how you didn't address this line from my original response

    "Honestly the same argument could be made of people whom want fast travel, easy rewards and instant gratification."

    That means a lot because it's about changes in fundamental game design.  Like non-consensual PVP, not having fast travel or easy rewards or instant gratification all work in BDO favor for what it is trying to accomplish.  Now that is not to say that those things listed above are wrong to want in a game, but for BDO it is because that doesn't fall in line with its overall game design. 

    I've seen you comment a couple of times about people not understanding you.  I think the problem is that you're not reading what people are saying why what you want wouldn't work for BDO.
  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800
    ArChWind said:
    ArChWind said:


    Kind of ironic though I don't see it supporting PvP long term either. PvP is just as boring as PvE so that is probably why early on it was kind of 'game will die anyway'.
    One that's not what irony means.  Two the PVP mechanics aren't fully implemented yet.  They are waiting for the game to mature and let guilds build up before turning it on.
    I don't follow you here. Right now 45+ is just a gankfest of players taking player grind spots and all kinds of miss conduct like PK afk fishers in combat zones, destroying players fighting world bosses.

    It is PvP is it not?

    It's not a gankfest.  People suffer karma hits for attacking others if those people being attacked don't fight back.  You can declare war on another guild that cost a lot of money to keep it up. 

    There's a whole portion of PVP that's not in the game yet.  Guild vs. Guild territory control.
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,081
    This game seems to be turning into the next Lineage II (this is *not* a good thing), except the community seems to have degenerated 100x faster than the L2 community.

    This is impressive, people!

    The reason why non-consensual OWPvP doesn't work well for the majority of people, is because people are horrible on the internet.

    Miss Janet who is the nicest housewife you've ever met will be an absolute ass in a video game because she can, and there are no RL consequences for doing so.  That's why.
  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800
    Darksworm said:
    This game seems to be turning into the next Lineage II (this is *not* a good thing), except the community seems to have degenerated 100x faster than the L2 community.

    This is impressive, people!

    The reason why non-consensual OWPvP doesn't work well for the majority of people, is because people are horrible on the internet.

    Miss Janet who is the nicest housewife you've ever met will be an absolute ass in a video game because she can, and there are no RL consequences for doing so.  That's why.
    There's a thing called karma that people take hits if they're being 'horrible.'  They become flagged for everyone, including the NPCs.  They can't do quests or enter towns.  They will be attacked.  They have to go to pirate island.  Everywhere else they are KOS.  I'm not sure how many people actually know that about this game before forming their opinion about the topic.
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited March 2016


    That option would still remain for those who enjoy this type of game play from a non-consensual stand point. That will not change for them.  It would only change in the channel that offered the option to flag for PvP if they so chose to engage in it.  Even that channel would play similar to the more hard-core channels that offered non-consensual PvP.  Again, the only difference would be that it would be consensual (flag) as opposed to non-consensual, and it would only be on the single channel, or channels, if the demand for it warrants it.
    Well what you're really asking for is a new server with a new ruleset.  Not a channel.  A channel wouldn't work because people would exploit it.  They would jump to that channel and do all their crafting there.  It would destroy the game.  As for a server with a completely different ruleset that fundamentally changes the end game?  I wouldn't do it if I was Pearl Abyss.  Why take that risk?  No territory control.  No guilds declaring war on other guilds.  No banditry, so no real risk in trade.  All karma mechanics become useless, so throw out all items and game design for that.  Pirate Island becomes a novelty.  People join that server thinking it's a viable fun option to play (after all the company is encouraging it by creating the server), only to find out that there isn't the game design functionality to support what you suggest.  That means you have a bunch of unhappy players. 


    Disagreeing with you, doesn't mean people aren't understanding you or angry.  It means that people understand core concepts of the game and see how your suggestion won't work.  I noticed how you didn't address this line from my original response

    "Honestly the same argument could be made of people whom want fast travel, easy rewards and instant gratification."

    That means a lot because it's about changes in fundamental game design.  Like non-consensual PVP, not having fast travel or easy rewards or instant gratification all work in BDO favor for what it is trying to accomplish.  Now that is not to say that those things listed above are wrong to want in a game, but for BDO it is because that doesn't fall in line with its overall game design. 

    I've seen you comment a couple of times about people not understanding you.  I think the problem is that you're not reading what people are saying why what you want wouldn't work for BDO.

    What would you rather have a ... populated and successful game that features one server that allows for consensual PvP ... or servers consisting of non-consensual PvP featuring territory control, guilds declaring war on other guilds, banditry with risk to trade, useful karma mechanics, and a pirate island that ... are all dead and deserted?  

    That has been the fate of the majority of PvP-centric games that feature non-consensual PvP.  Go ahead and have your pick.

    I don't think I need say more.
  • BurntCabbageBurntCabbage Member UncommonPosts: 482
    its a good game BUT GAWD  LORDY! why does every game now gotta have the action combat combo crap..such a big turn off..its a rpg not street fighter ..

  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,081
    edited March 2016
    Darksworm said:
    This game seems to be turning into the next Lineage II (this is *not* a good thing), except the community seems to have degenerated 100x faster than the L2 community.

    This is impressive, people!

    The reason why non-consensual OWPvP doesn't work well for the majority of people, is because people are horrible on the internet.

    Miss Janet who is the nicest housewife you've ever met will be an absolute ass in a video game because she can, and there are no RL consequences for doing so.  That's why.
    There's a thing called karma that people take hits if they're being 'horrible.'  They become flagged for everyone, including the NPCs.  They can't do quests or enter towns.  They will be attacked.  They have to go to pirate island.  Everywhere else they are KOS.  I'm not sure how many people actually know that about this game before forming their opinion about the topic.
    That is not enough.  Have you ever played Lineage II?  It has the same issue (and has had, for several years, it isn't a recent development).  Hell, in that game it had Karma and even I'd PK people for XP spots if they came in and didn't leave.  "You have 30 seconds to leave," wasn't unheard of.  Farmers and professional PLers would PK you with high level characters and log them off if you tried to XP in their spots.

    Karma can be cleared and if you are an underpowered character and they have guild groups grinding near each other, they can simply clear it off safely, anyways.  The game is a grinder, so it's not like they need to go turn in some quests constantly on their level 53 character.  They can just sit there for hours XPing and take turns PKing you, and clearing their karma.

    People were KOS everywhere with Karma in L2 as well.  No one gave a shit about that.

    I think you people are completely overselling the Karma system.  It is not enough of a deterrent - and that's pretty clearly the case seeing how many people are PKing without thought just for an XP spot.

    It isn't nearly the deterrent you're making it out to be.  They need to do something about this.

    PvPers will always love a system like this because it allows them to monopolize good XP spots and grind ahead of the competition, which gives them an advantage especially when character progression is or may be tied to PvP performance.

    I actually don't mind grindy games.  I find it can be relaxing to sit in a spot and kill some mobs for a couple hours at times without having to worry about constantly running to and fro for quests, or PUG raids, etc.

    It's just unfortunate that most games of that type are paired up with FFA PvP systems...  Or come from Asian developers who don't really factor in the western feedback, and have very long lag times between Asian/Western content update release timeframes.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Darksworm said:


    I think you people are completely overselling the Karma system.  It is not enough of a deterrent - and that's pretty clearly the case seeing how many people are PKing without thought just for an XP spot.

    It isn't nearly the deterrent you're making it out to be.  They need to do something about this.
    Yup. They obviously totally underestimated the degree of Western asshatery. They should have increased the Karma penalties for us not relaxed them.

    By all indications from players who have played in the KR server, it's quite a bit more civilized over there.
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  • RictisRictis Member UncommonPosts: 1,300
    "The quickest way to burn out on BDO is to play it like other MMOs. The quickest way to kill your interest is to apply all the behaviors you have learned playing other MMOs over your entire MMO career."

    So true. Oddly, when I played EQ2 I never reached max level because I was playing it as a living world. And I loved it. Then as I played other MMOs I got on the rails and never got off. I started BDO on rails till I reached Velia and I saw I could build a raft. I built the raft and out I went and had a blast doing nothing. At that point I remembered having so much fun in EQ2 doing just whatever the hell I wanted, the rails came off and I got it.
    I think this is a good point. Most of us want to get that feeling in games. I have been looking for that EQ feeling for a long time. I just want to be able to go out and adventure, maybe find a cave with treasure inside etc. It has been a while since I could find a game like that because most companies want you to have a linear leveling progression. Sometimes its better to just lay a map down and say, go do whatever you want. I am starting to see a lot of people mention this experience more with BDO lately then any other game.
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,772
    its a good game BUT GAWD  LORDY! why does every game now gotta have the action combat combo crap..such a big turn off..its a rpg not street fighter ..

    Action-combat is the future.  And for good reason- it's much more fun to play.  Either get used to it or be stuck playing old MMOs.
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,081
    Rictis said:
    "The quickest way to burn out on BDO is to play it like other MMOs. The quickest way to kill your interest is to apply all the behaviors you have learned playing other MMOs over your entire MMO career."

    So true. Oddly, when I played EQ2 I never reached max level because I was playing it as a living world. And I loved it. Then as I played other MMOs I got on the rails and never got off. I started BDO on rails till I reached Velia and I saw I could build a raft. I built the raft and out I went and had a blast doing nothing. At that point I remembered having so much fun in EQ2 doing just whatever the hell I wanted, the rails came off and I got it.
    I think this is a good point. Most of us want to get that feeling in games. I have been looking for that EQ feeling for a long time. I just want to be able to go out and adventure, maybe find a cave with treasure inside etc. It has been a while since I could find a game like that because most companies want you to have a linear leveling progression. Sometimes its better to just lay a map down and say, go do whatever you want. I am starting to see a lot of people mention this experience more with BDO lately then any other game.
    That EQ feeling isn't going to happen.  You cannot replicate your first MMORPG experiences.  So many people are trying to do this, but failing because it is impossible.

    If you keep looking for that, you will always be looking.  You will never find it.

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

    People are coming up with all sorts of excuses...  "Adventure"  "Find a cave with treasure inside..."

    You do realize there are probably 30 MMORPGs that offer that?  What you're nostalgic about is the overall experience you had in the grand scheme of things.  The way the game and playing the game made you feel.  The interesting interactions with the people you played with, etc.

    But you won't get it, because you only get one shot that at.  Everything after that is just going to be compared and contrasted to your first great experiences, while leaving you wishing you could relive it again (which isn't possible).

    Many people have tried going back to EQ to try to recreate that, and it never happens (and never will).
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,081

    its a good game BUT GAWD  LORDY! why does every game now gotta have the action combat combo crap..such a big turn off..its a rpg not street fighter ..

    Action-combat is the future.  And for good reason- it's much more fun to play.  Either get used to it or be stuck playing old MMOs.
    Didn't know you were the arbiter of what is "the future," what is "fun," and what people should get used to or play...

    Excuse me!
  • UhwopUhwop Member UncommonPosts: 1,791
    BDO is a PvP game, from design to development PvP was at its core.  People who think that PA is going to change the game, or that the "PvPers are to blame" are talking nonsense. 

    At no point did PA design the game with PvP not as a factor. 

    Thinking that they're going to make drastic changes based on PvE only is silly when they're talking about adding MORE PvP focused elements, like bounties, and overhauling the karma system so that it's not as punishing. 

    Some of you made comments that show you're paying zero attention, and looks a lot like you aren't even playing the game while making claims about it as if you do. 
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327

    For the record, I don't think its news to anyone on this forum that I like BDO despite its forced, non-consensual PvP nature.  As such, it goes without saying that I want it to succeed.  The game would be a lot better off if it was inclusive of the entire MMORPG game playing demographic by implementing measures that are favorable to the PvE-centric playing demographic, such as a consensual PvE server, instead of being exclusive by unnecessarily shutting off the feasibility of a server featuring consensual PvP simply to appease the needs of the smaller hard-core PvP gaming playing demographic.  

    BDO is revolutionary with a lot of its game play.  It can set its own path by going in a different route than many of the PvP-centric playing predecessors and accommodating for the PvE-centric demographic thereby reaping its just rewards, or it can stubbornly stay the course of its predecessors and suffer their same fate. Time will tell as to the business acumen possessed by the personnel at Daum.  They would do well to do their research and bone up on the PvP-centric history of MMORPGs in the West.  There is a lot of wisdom in the saying "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."     
  • ArChWindArChWind Member UncommonPosts: 1,340
    ArChWind said:
    ArChWind said:


    Kind of ironic though I don't see it supporting PvP long term either. PvP is just as boring as PvE so that is probably why early on it was kind of 'game will die anyway'.
    One that's not what irony means.  Two the PVP mechanics aren't fully implemented yet.  They are waiting for the game to mature and let guilds build up before turning it on.
    I don't follow you here. Right now 45+ is just a gankfest of players taking player grind spots and all kinds of miss conduct like PK afk fishers in combat zones, destroying players fighting world bosses.

    It is PvP is it not?

    It's not a gankfest.  People suffer karma hits for attacking others if those people being attacked don't fight back.  You can declare war on another guild that cost a lot of money to keep it up. 

    There's a whole portion of PVP that's not in the game yet.  Guild vs. Guild territory control.
    You're disillusioned if you think the karma system is stopping ganking and PK. It has so little effect it may as well be removed.
    ArChWind — MMORPG.com Forums

    If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
  • UhwopUhwop Member UncommonPosts: 1,791
    Darksworm said:
    Rictis said:
    "The quickest way to burn out on BDO is to play it like other MMOs. The quickest way to kill your interest is to apply all the behaviors you have learned playing other MMOs over your entire MMO career."

    So true. Oddly, when I played EQ2 I never reached max level because I was playing it as a living world. And I loved it. Then as I played other MMOs I got on the rails and never got off. I started BDO on rails till I reached Velia and I saw I could build a raft. I built the raft and out I went and had a blast doing nothing. At that point I remembered having so much fun in EQ2 doing just whatever the hell I wanted, the rails came off and I got it.
    I think this is a good point. Most of us want to get that feeling in games. I have been looking for that EQ feeling for a long time. I just want to be able to go out and adventure, maybe find a cave with treasure inside etc. It has been a while since I could find a game like that because most companies want you to have a linear leveling progression. Sometimes its better to just lay a map down and say, go do whatever you want. I am starting to see a lot of people mention this experience more with BDO lately then any other game.
    That EQ feeling isn't going to happen.  You cannot replicate your first MMORPG experiences.  So many people are trying to do this, but failing because it is impossible.

    If you keep looking for that, you will always be looking.  You will never find it.

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

    People are coming up with all sorts of excuses...  "Adventure"  "Find a cave with treasure inside..."

    You do realize there are probably 30 MMORPGs that offer that?  What you're nostalgic about is the overall experience you had in the grand scheme of things.  The way the game and playing the game made you feel.  The interesting interactions with the people you played with, etc.

    But you won't get it, because you only get one shot that at.  Everything after that is just going to be compared and contrasted to your first great experiences, while leaving you wishing you could relive it again (which isn't possible).

    Many people have tried going back to EQ to try to recreate that, and it never happens (and never will).

    Comments made by people actually playing the game would indicate you're wrong. 

    Daily I'm seeing people make comment in game that they feel like they're playing EQ or UO again.  Not because the game plays like either of them, but because there are elements of the game that are reminiscent of both of those games. 

    Who in the world are you to tell anyone that their impressions are wrong, just because you appear to dislike the thing they enjoy? 
  • UhwopUhwop Member UncommonPosts: 1,791
    edited March 2016
    Iselin said:
    Darksworm said:


    I think you people are completely overselling the Karma system.  It is not enough of a deterrent - and that's pretty clearly the case seeing how many people are PKing without thought just for an XP spot.

    It isn't nearly the deterrent you're making it out to be.  They need to do something about this.
    Yup. They obviously totally underestimated the degree of Western asshatery. They should have increased the Karma penalties for us not relaxed them.

    By all indications from players who have played in the KR server, it's quite a bit more civilized over there.


    Yet I've seen the opposite statement made repeatedly, that it's worse in the KR version.  I'm seeing the exact same thing that happens with every PvP focused game that gets released.  One group making statements of opinion based on their feelings towards open world PvP contrary to the others. 

    What is a fact, they're discussing ways to make the karma system less punishing, and adding in more player tools for combating PKers. 


  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited March 2016
    Uhwop said:
    BDO is a PvP game, from design to development PvP was at its core.  People who think that PA is going to change the game, or that the "PvPers are to blame" are talking nonsense. 

    At no point did PA design the game with PvP not as a factor. 

    Thinking that they're going to make drastic changes based on PvE only is silly when they're talking about adding MORE PvP focused elements, like bounties, and overhauling the karma system so that it's not as punishing. 

    Some of you made comments that show you're paying zero attention, and looks a lot like you aren't even playing the game while making claims about it as if you do. 

    No one is talking about making drastic changes.  The changes that people are talking about are easily doable, and if you are as informed as you say you are, you would know that Daum representatives are already on record stating that they are given a lot of leeway in regard to various aspects of the game to include the levels that non-consensual PvP should be enabled, karma penalties, EXP penalties and whether there should be any at all, and the impact that flagging, or not flagging, would have on PvP.  As a matter of fact, all of those are different in every region in which BDO has been released.  Daum has a lot of leeway to implement changes according to requests made, and game play metrics displayed, in their respective region. 
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,949
    edited March 2016
    Azmodeus said:
    It is safe to say DMKano is butthurt about this game.  Go play AA with your guild if you hate it so much.  I love how you think anything you say is gospel.  lol
    lol Agreed and you're talking about an issue that 50% of the people here have ..elitism. 

    I find it funny when a pvper claims everybody who isn't doing pvp is playing the GAME wrong or the game isn't for those who dont pvp. (kano dude wth are you talking about there is plenty to do here for everyone) 

     As if their style of play is the only style others should want to play.. those types of people are the ones who ruin a mmo experience for others. The point of any mmo is for you to have fun as a gamer. Raiders, PVPers.. it's all supposed to be fun.  Elitist make everything NOT fun as soon as they open their fat ass mouths. I started MMOs as a PVPer then switched over to the pve RAID side. Both sides are filled with Elitist who think their style is better than everyone else's and all others play "wrong"



    Anybody who says non consensual pvp is the way ..they are more than likely part of the gank crowd.

    There are types of pvpers and owpvp with no rules is gank heaven.

    They dont care that your level 50 isn't setup for pvp like theirs is..  they dont care that you like pve.. NO.. you dont play like them so it your fault ..

    PVP Elitist that support OWPVP, why does it matter if it's regulated or not? Should you not want to only kill players who are looking for that style of play anyway?

    Why do you want non consensual PVP so badly? The only reason would to be able to kill players who aren't looking for that style of play.. to flex your digital muscles and fill those REAL LIFE voids you have..

    There is no other reason, you could get your kills from other people like you, who are flagged all day for it, you can play bandit against players who have the same gear and stats as you, but you rather go after people weaker than you or people who aren't set up for PVP. 

    Personally I enjoy raiding and pvping both.. I would support OWPVP only if its done right. I'm not into killing those weaker than me or those who aren't set up for pvp.. there is no honor in that. 

    Stop this elitism bs.. it's a video game. You're sucking the fun out.

    Edit: I love pvp, i love raids, i love owpvp.. but only if it's fair 
    (Don't force others to pvp if they dont want it) 
    "Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."


    "The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."



     
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  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    Uhwop said:


    What is a fact, they're discussing ways to make the karma system less punishing, and adding in more player tools for combating PKers. 


    That makes absolutely no sense.  Lowering karma effectively encourages and increases the potential for PK'ing.  To discuss ways of making the karma system less punishing but at the same saying they are adding more player tools for combating PKers is the epitome of the meaning behind "cutting off your nose to spite your face."
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