I can't understand how anyone can really believe this game is going to happen. This all but confirms they're going to make a release as poor as they can possibly get away with, and they'll announce a shutdown soon after.
They already have what can be called a game. I just dont think this game is going to live up to the 110 million dollar expectations that most people have given the epic details that Chris spewed for the last 4 years
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
If anything gets put out......and that's a big IF......it will be complete and utter garbage just so he can say it was released and he won't get caught up in a class action suit.
By the end of 2016 I can wager they are out of business.
In general, a "minimally viable product" is not something any producer of anything EVER wants to admit making, and to draw such an admission from a company CEO is almost universally considered a "very bad thing". And furthermore, the only reason to make such an admission, is that to NOT make such an admission would be worse.
Plenty of companies in the past have released "minimally viable products", but such are not usually received well. If this were a publicly traded company, the stock would sell off massively, upon the release of such news.
Outside of the little bubble of "special snowflake" reality surrounding game development, a forced admission by a company that they are releasing a minimally viable product, especially after all the marketing that has been done at great expense (and is now made worthless) would be the nails in the coffin of a CEO.
But in Chris Roberts land, everything is apparently just fine.....
Pretty much followed what the anon employees said, in that he wanted stuff done that just couldn't be done with todays tech. The game world just had to much stuff going on. A scale-back was inevitable.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
If anything gets put out......and that's a big IF......it will be complete and utter garbage just so he can say it was released and he won't get caught up in a class action suit.
By the end of 2016 I can wager they are out of business.
I doubt the "MVP" will even be out by the end of 2016.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I can't understand how anyone can really believe this game is going to happen. This all but confirms they're going to make a release as poor as they can possibly get away with, and they'll announce a shutdown soon after.
Oh it will happen .. It just wont be anything like the game people backed ..
My personal estimate for Star Citizen release is end of 2017 at the earliest. There's just no way it can release long before then.
The SQ 42 portion of the game will be lucky to released by then, but then again we dont know all the terminology now either since it has been split up into so many parts.
SQ 42 which is now the main focus was ORIGINALLY a stretch goal add on mod if I am not mistaken. But now (since they cant seem to get a persistent universe to work) they drop that from SQ 42 and make SQ 42 the focus. So the money they raised for the most ambitious MMO ever is now being used, and more than likely they dont have enough left, to make a random FPS single player game which is all likelihood will be solely client side now. But this was also done (and speculated by the 'haters') to be one of the first cash grab situations since it was also split from the original package deal and now anyone who hasnt pledged will have ot buy both entities separately. But they needed a quick influx of cash so in typical salesman mode they created this whole 'buy now or miss out forever' attitude last year with this.
But thee have been a few BBC reports on this and they specifically said that in all the visits they made to CiG they never once saw SQ 42 in action, and if I remember correctly never even heard it mentioned. And those visits werent too long ago.
Now of course the argument is 'that studio isnt working on that portion'. Which the rebuttal for that would be so long it would be crazy.
IF they get everything to work that they havent been able to get to work and they actually do release something, I doubt it will even be an MMO at this point and more than likely a 'simple' multiplayer game. I wouldnt expect that for at least 3 years if not longer.
I've done and been a part of software development for over 20 years (non gaming), and in every case when a dev team starts preaching MVP it basically means that they are in deep shit trouble and are trying to use the term to come up with something that can be release... and near 100% of the time what is release is crap and not what the customer wants.
Identifying a failed project/dev team is pretty easy, you just look for key words like MVP being thrown out there. If the dev team was running at a high velocity and getting stuff done then MVP doesn't come into the picture. Glad I didn't invest into this train wreck, learned my lesson from Landmark.
I've done and been a part of software development for over 20 years (non gaming), and in every case when a dev team starts preaching MVP it basically means that they are in deep shit trouble and are trying to use the term to come up with something that can be release... and near 100% of the time what is release is crap and not what the customer wants.
Identifying a failed project/dev team is pretty easy, you just look for key words like MVP being thrown out there. If the dev team was running at a high velocity and getting stuff done then MVP doesn't come into the picture. Glad I didn't invest into this train wreck, learned my lesson from Landmark.
I've worked in software for 15 years and I have a much different view of things, but that's highly dependent on the methodology in play. Based on what I know now, that's Agile with some Waterfall built in. Ick. Either way, if they are working Agile then the MVP should always be in play, that's your deliverable for the iteration.
Unfortunately I think that your interpretation of MVP is actually much different than mine. To me, MVP means what is the minimum to be done to satisfy the requirements (or features) of a particular customer or customers. The focus is on creating something functional and useful. There's actually a great article on the whole misconception of MVP over here. I understand that terminology varies from organization to organization, but if this is the definition of MVP within your organization, I think the article attached is actually something you should preach because it speaks a lot to that mindset.
NOW!!! As far as Agile/Waterfall goes.......... *sigh* ......... I will say that we've had this work in our organization. I'm not a fan of it, but we've had it. However, it must be managed much more diligently. Someone needs to manage the process almost exclusively and needs to be very good at it. In reality, I generally view it as a result of the inability to break down a particular task into someone more manageable. Many times this is poor management. Other times this is legitimately difficult work. I can only speculate here, but I think there is probably some difficult work. Either way, it's almost never a good thing and it tends to result in that work becoming the bottleneck for your project. It's quite possible that's the reason for the refocusing on SQ42, which is actually a good move. It's possible that they're giving that waterfall team time to work on removing blockers that are holding up the rest of development. That's entirely speculative though.
I'm pretty sure there's a difference between an MVP (or SMURFS as that article wanted to state) for some piece of software vs a video game MMO. If you're building a system or program for a company to use in house, as long as it does what it needs to do for that company to function, then yeah, an MVP isn't really a problem and you can add to it.
When a game releases with less content than expected it tends to crash and burn. It's not a piece of software that provides function to anything, it's an entertainment product. If it doesn't entertain sufficiently, then it fails at its one and only goal. It doesn't matter if it contains the foundation to build upon or if the systems are in place - if it lacks the content to entertain its players then what exactly do you want the players to do?
In short, I don't think MVP translates the same between different types of software development. I mean, we've seen games that weren't MVPs that still stumbled so hard that they never got back up. Gamers are not very forgiving in my experience. If you launch without enough content, they have no problem letting loose all over the place.
I'm pretty sure there's a difference between an MVP (or SMURFS as that article wanted to state) for some piece of software vs a video game MMO. If you're building a system or program for a company to use in house, as long as it does what it needs to do for that company to function, then yeah, an MVP isn't really a problem and you can add to it.
When a game releases with less content than expected it tends to crash and burn. It's not a piece of software that provides function to anything, it's an entertainment product. If it doesn't entertain sufficiently, then it fails at its one and only goal. It doesn't matter if it contains the foundation to build upon or if the systems are in place - if it lacks the content to entertain its players then what exactly do you want the players to do?
In short, I don't think MVP translates the same between different types of software development. I mean, we've seen games that weren't MVPs that still stumbled so hard that they never got back up. Gamers are not very forgiving in my experience. If you launch without enough content, they have no problem letting loose all over the place.
I agree wholeheartedly. There is a difference, but the basic premise is the same. What's the SC MVP? Is it SQ42? That's certainly how it appears right now. In the case of how MVP applies to SC, you're right, there are greater expectations. It has to be more complete. Either way, the point is that what people BELIEVE MVP to be and what MVP is within the context of SC might be, and likely is, significantly different.
I agree wholeheartedly. There is a difference, but the basic premise is the same. What's the SC MVP? Is it SQ42? That's certainly how it appears right now. In the case of how MVP applies to SC, you're right, there are greater expectations. It has to be more complete. Either way, the point is that what people BELIEVE MVP to be and what MVP is within the context of SC might be, and likely is, significantly different.
Not sure how a single player add on could be considered an MVP for an MMO that was supposed to be the end all be all. Especially when that single player game itself has been stripped to the bare bones.
Like I said I dont think anyone really knows and why I have asked these questions over and over again and its been complete crickets. Because I dont think anyone knows, not even people at CiG.
I suspect once they get this tech demo test bed persistent then THAT will be what they call an MVP. Obviously not even close but they will make claims (like they have for the past 4 or 5 years) they they can add on to that and make everything they originally planned on.
Now whether that happens before SQ 42 is another guess. But I suspect right now (as I said awhile ago) theyre all in on SQ 42, and despite what people think persistence wont be coming with 2.4 or whatever version of the test bed they claimed it would be, unless that version doesnt get released for another few years.
I dont have any links because no one does, but I suspect the next video blog or update will say that the main focus is in fact on getting SQ 42 out the door and that the 'alpha' is basically maintenance mode for now and that persistence is on a back burner. That is if this is truly going to be a more forthright and (semi) honest and open Chris Roberts.
If he does a 180 and becomes defiant and shouting down the critics and lets his ego and hubris start steering his decision making then it will get ugly again. I mean its ugly enough now, but at least there is some reality to it all.
But its a catch 22 this project is hanging by a thread, despite what the pro camp want to spin or people to believe, the only thing that can save it s more money and keeping with reality. Problem is the reality probably cant raise the money necessary. SQ 42 if its decent can give them a little push but the question is also there if they even have enough money left to finish that little add on mod. Again no one knows that for sure. BECAUSE of all these concession I personally doubt it.
But the actions these guys take going forward can either save this and produce something semi viable or it can completely crater it and it can end in flames. Right now that is the biggest question I suspect most people have. And not one that instill confidence enough to keep donating money to them.
Will be released as polished chapters/episodes[27]
“
Eric Peterson: What's the plan of action for [Squadron 42]? Phil Meller: Well, the first ten missions for the end of this year, fingers crossed. So we'll [start] with those, and then, in the background, we'll have other teams working on the followup ten; You know, ten, there are segments of ten missions every month, after. Eric Peterson: You're kind of doing the modular release kind of schedule, like the rest of us where, it's interesting- it's a serial sort of release, kind of like the old movies, the old Buck Rogers movies, or something. Phil Meller: Yeah yeah yeah, that's the plan, yeah like cliffhangers at the end of them, like Flash Gordon, like the old Flash Gordon serials. You know, the big cliffhanger at the end of the, every ten mission segment.
”
–Eric Peterson and Phil Meller on February 19, 2014[31]
“
In terms of when Squadron 42 is launched, [...] when we put it out it will be ten missions with the intro, with the intro it will be ten missions, and then we will do a further four chapters with ten missions each, so there will be fifty missions on the launch.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
"This has just gotten silly. So many mixed up confused opinions about something that is so easy to grasp.
Here we go. This is whats happening: CIG is creating a trilogy of stand alone games. They are:
First Game SQUADRON 42 ----Begins its release at the end of this year. ----Will be released in stages so we can begin playing it earlier. ----A stand alone campaign setting the stage for Star Citizen. ----Everyone who pledged a game package will get it. ----It includes everything originally planned for, plus more.
Second Game Behind Enemy Lines ----Release date not announced ----Used
to be envisioned as an expansion pack for SQ42 but with CIG's financial
success it got re-envisioned as a complete game. ----Free to those who backed before 6 Million. For sale as a complete stand alone game to anyone else. ----Will probably be released as a whole complete game instead of in stages. ----It continues the story-line of Squadron 42, but is a separate game unto itself. ----It does not require Squadron 42 to install.
Third Game Title to be determined ----Release date not announced. ----Will be released as a complete stand alone game. ----Is not an expansion pack or add on to Squadron 42. It only continues the story-line into its third part. ----Is available for purchase as a complete game to anyone. ----Does not require Squadron 42 or Behind Enemy Lines to install.
I hope this helps
CIG's old plan = Squadron 42 + some expansion packs.
CIG's new plan = Three stand alone games: Squadron 42 (all of it), Behind Enemy Lines, and Third unnamed title."
The 'Star Citizen Saga' is almost better than the Game of Thrones. Who's in, Who's out, what new plot complication this week? Where did the money go?
Love it. A great comedy/tragedy story.
I do hope it works out for those who donated money, but pure comedy.
really? better than Game of Thrones? seriously?
Surprisingly I agree with Sean on this one. GoT is much better.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
I've done and been a part of software development for over 20 years (non gaming), and in every case when a dev team starts preaching MVP it basically means that they are in deep shit trouble and are trying to use the term to come up with something that can be release... and near 100% of the time what is release is crap and not what the customer wants.
Identifying a failed project/dev team is pretty easy, you just look for key words like MVP being thrown out there. If the dev team was running at a high velocity and getting stuff done then MVP doesn't come into the picture. Glad I didn't invest into this train wreck, learned my lesson from Landmark.
soon there will be "payroll errors" resulting in people not getting their paycheques in time.
The 'Star Citizen Saga' is almost better than the Game of Thrones. Who's in, Who's out, what new plot complication this week? Where did the money go?
Love it. A great comedy/tragedy story.
I do hope it works out for those who donated money, but pure comedy.
really? better than Game of Thrones? seriously?
Surprisingly I agree with Sean on this one. GoT is much better.
I'm pretty sure he only meant to make sidejab at what has been going on so far rather than a serious comparison.
/agreed
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
"This has just gotten silly. So many mixed up confused opinions about something that is so easy to grasp.
Here we go. This is whats happening: CIG is creating a trilogy of stand alone games. They are:
First Game SQUADRON 42 ----Begins its release at the end of this year. ----Will be released in stages so we can begin playing it earlier. ----A stand alone campaign setting the stage for Star Citizen. ----Everyone who pledged a game package will get it. ----It includes everything originally planned for, plus more.
Second Game Behind Enemy Lines ----Release date not announced ----Used
to be envisioned as an expansion pack for SQ42 but with CIG's financial
success it got re-envisioned as a complete game. ----Free to those who backed before 6 Million. For sale as a complete stand alone game to anyone else. ----Will probably be released as a whole complete game instead of in stages. ----It continues the story-line of Squadron 42, but is a separate game unto itself. ----It does not require Squadron 42 to install.
Third Game Title to be determined ----Release date not announced. ----Will be released as a complete stand alone game. ----Is not an expansion pack or add on to Squadron 42. It only continues the story-line into its third part. ----Is available for purchase as a complete game to anyone. ----Does not require Squadron 42 or Behind Enemy Lines to install.
I hope this helps
CIG's old plan = Squadron 42 + some expansion packs.
CIG's new plan = Three stand alone games: Squadron 42 (all of it), Behind Enemy Lines, and Third unnamed title."
Have fun
I'm reading that thread and a lot of the posters are just as confused as I am, even after that 'clarification' was posted. That's also taking for granted the summery poster had a credible source. Looks like S42 was due in 2015, then in 2016, now I'm hearing final production begins in 2016 making one think the game will come out sometime after that, cause no ones saying launching in 2016 or even 2017 now. So based on your considerable knowledge of this game, what's the release date?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Comments
By the end of 2016 I can wager they are out of business.
Plenty of companies in the past have released "minimally viable products", but such are not usually received well. If this were a publicly traded company, the stock would sell off massively, upon the release of such news.
Outside of the little bubble of "special snowflake" reality surrounding game development, a forced admission by a company that they are releasing a minimally viable product, especially after all the marketing that has been done at great expense (and is now made worthless) would be the nails in the coffin of a CEO.
But in Chris Roberts land, everything is apparently just fine.....
????
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
SQ 42 which is now the main focus was ORIGINALLY a stretch goal add on mod if I am not mistaken. But now (since they cant seem to get a persistent universe to work) they drop that from SQ 42 and make SQ 42 the focus. So the money they raised for the most ambitious MMO ever is now being used, and more than likely they dont have enough left, to make a random FPS single player game which is all likelihood will be solely client side now. But this was also done (and speculated by the 'haters') to be one of the first cash grab situations since it was also split from the original package deal and now anyone who hasnt pledged will have ot buy both entities separately. But they needed a quick influx of cash so in typical salesman mode they created this whole 'buy now or miss out forever' attitude last year with this.
But thee have been a few BBC reports on this and they specifically said that in all the visits they made to CiG they never once saw SQ 42 in action, and if I remember correctly never even heard it mentioned. And those visits werent too long ago.
Now of course the argument is 'that studio isnt working on that portion'. Which the rebuttal for that would be so long it would be crazy.
IF they get everything to work that they havent been able to get to work and they actually do release something, I doubt it will even be an MMO at this point and more than likely a 'simple' multiplayer game. I wouldnt expect that for at least 3 years if not longer.
Identifying a failed project/dev team is pretty easy, you just look for key words like MVP being thrown out there. If the dev team was running at a high velocity and getting stuff done then MVP doesn't come into the picture. Glad I didn't invest into this train wreck, learned my lesson from Landmark.
I've worked in software for 15 years and I have a much different view of things, but that's highly dependent on the methodology in play. Based on what I know now, that's Agile with some Waterfall built in. Ick. Either way, if they are working Agile then the MVP should always be in play, that's your deliverable for the iteration.
Unfortunately I think that your interpretation of MVP is actually much different than mine. To me, MVP means what is the minimum to be done to satisfy the requirements (or features) of a particular customer or customers. The focus is on creating something functional and useful. There's actually a great article on the whole misconception of MVP over here. I understand that terminology varies from organization to organization, but if this is the definition of MVP within your organization, I think the article attached is actually something you should preach because it speaks a lot to that mindset.
NOW!!! As far as Agile/Waterfall goes.......... *sigh* ......... I will say that we've had this work in our organization. I'm not a fan of it, but we've had it. However, it must be managed much more diligently. Someone needs to manage the process almost exclusively and needs to be very good at it. In reality, I generally view it as a result of the inability to break down a particular task into someone more manageable. Many times this is poor management. Other times this is legitimately difficult work. I can only speculate here, but I think there is probably some difficult work. Either way, it's almost never a good thing and it tends to result in that work becoming the bottleneck for your project. It's quite possible that's the reason for the refocusing on SQ42, which is actually a good move. It's possible that they're giving that waterfall team time to work on removing blockers that are holding up the rest of development. That's entirely speculative though.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
When a game releases with less content than expected it tends to crash and burn. It's not a piece of software that provides function to anything, it's an entertainment product. If it doesn't entertain sufficiently, then it fails at its one and only goal. It doesn't matter if it contains the foundation to build upon or if the systems are in place - if it lacks the content to entertain its players then what exactly do you want the players to do?
In short, I don't think MVP translates the same between different types of software development. I mean, we've seen games that weren't MVPs that still stumbled so hard that they never got back up. Gamers are not very forgiving in my experience. If you launch without enough content, they have no problem letting loose all over the place.
I agree wholeheartedly. There is a difference, but the basic premise is the same. What's the SC MVP? Is it SQ42? That's certainly how it appears right now. In the case of how MVP applies to SC, you're right, there are greater expectations. It has to be more complete. Either way, the point is that what people BELIEVE MVP to be and what MVP is within the context of SC might be, and likely is, significantly different.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Like I said I dont think anyone really knows and why I have asked these questions over and over again and its been complete crickets. Because I dont think anyone knows, not even people at CiG.
I suspect once they get this tech demo test bed persistent then THAT will be what they call an MVP. Obviously not even close but they will make claims (like they have for the past 4 or 5 years) they they can add on to that and make everything they originally planned on.
Now whether that happens before SQ 42 is another guess. But I suspect right now (as I said awhile ago) theyre all in on SQ 42, and despite what people think persistence wont be coming with 2.4 or whatever version of the test bed they claimed it would be, unless that version doesnt get released for another few years.
I dont have any links because no one does, but I suspect the next video blog or update will say that the main focus is in fact on getting SQ 42 out the door and that the 'alpha' is basically maintenance mode for now and that persistence is on a back burner. That is if this is truly going to be a more forthright and (semi) honest and open Chris Roberts.
If he does a 180 and becomes defiant and shouting down the critics and lets his ego and hubris start steering his decision making then it will get ugly again. I mean its ugly enough now, but at least there is some reality to it all.
But its a catch 22 this project is hanging by a thread, despite what the pro camp want to spin or people to believe, the only thing that can save it s more money and keeping with reality. Problem is the reality probably cant raise the money necessary. SQ 42 if its decent can give them a little push but the question is also there if they even have enough money left to finish that little add on mod. Again no one knows that for sure. BECAUSE of all these concession I personally doubt it.
But the actions these guys take going forward can either save this and produce something semi viable or it can completely crater it and it can end in flames. Right now that is the biggest question I suspect most people have. And not one that instill confidence enough to keep donating money to them.
http://starcitizen.wikia.com/wiki/Anticipated_release_schedule
From the wiki:
Squadron 42
Phil Meller: Well, the first ten missions for the end of this year, fingers crossed. So we'll [start] with those, and then, in the background, we'll have other teams working on the followup ten; You know, ten, there are segments of ten missions every month, after.
Eric Peterson: You're kind of doing the modular release kind of schedule, like the rest of us where, it's interesting- it's a serial sort of release, kind of like the old movies, the old Buck Rogers movies, or something.
Phil Meller: Yeah yeah yeah, that's the plan, yeah like cliffhangers at the end of them, like Flash Gordon, like the old Flash Gordon serials. You know, the big cliffhanger at the end of the, every ten mission segment.
–Eric Peterson and Phil Meller on February 19, 2014[31]
–Erin Roberts on April 11, 2014[32]
–Erin Roberts on April 11, 2014[28]
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
–Erin Roberts on April 11, 2014
Summary from a forum poster:
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/249912/squadron-42-episode-1-included-eh-responses-from-ben-length-scope-explained/p1
"This has just gotten silly. So many mixed up confused opinions about something that is so easy to grasp.
Here we go. This is whats happening: CIG is creating a trilogy of stand alone games. They are:
First Game
SQUADRON 42
----Begins its release at the end of this year.
----Will be released in stages so we can begin playing it earlier.
----A stand alone campaign setting the stage for Star Citizen.
----Everyone who pledged a game package will get it.
----It includes everything originally planned for, plus more.
Second Game
Behind Enemy Lines
----Release date not announced
----Used to be envisioned as an expansion pack for SQ42 but with CIG's financial success it got re-envisioned as a complete game.
----Free to those who backed before 6 Million. For sale as a complete stand alone game to anyone else.
----Will probably be released as a whole complete game instead of in stages.
----It continues the story-line of Squadron 42, but is a separate game unto itself.
----It does not require Squadron 42 to install.
Third Game
Title to be determined
----Release date not announced.
----Will be released as a complete stand alone game.
----Is not an expansion pack or add on to Squadron 42. It only continues the story-line into its third part.
----Is available for purchase as a complete game to anyone.
----Does not require Squadron 42 or Behind Enemy Lines to install.
I hope this helps
CIG's old plan = Squadron 42 + some expansion packs.
CIG's new plan = Three stand alone games: Squadron 42 (all of it), Behind Enemy Lines, and Third unnamed title."
Have fun
Love it. A great comedy/tragedy story.
I do hope it works out for those who donated money, but pure comedy.
I self identify as a monkey.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I self identify as a monkey.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey