To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Kickstarter, says several times over that you are not buying a product, that their site is to crowdfund ideas, you are NOT purchasing goods and services, you are backing a potential product, and they do this, just so that people won't get the idea into their heads that this is a purchase, because it is not.
However, even with Kickstarter saying all over their site that this is not a purchase and that you are backing a venture which may or may not be successful (I believe they boast around an 80% Success), and is not a purchase and should not be treated as such, it seems some people still don't get that.
It is that kind of being deliberately obtuse about what the situation is, that I have an issue with.
The real easiest solution is, if someone can't accept the risks of backing a project, which may fail, and realize that money gets spent regardless of success or fails, that they should not get involved with crowdfunding projects, and should instead spend their money on buying things off Amazon or Steam. It's that simple.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Let me understand the equivalency because I am not familiar with the Art projects you are talking about.
So you give money to an Artist projects, that says they will send you a piece of art at its completion. The artist decides its not worth their time anymore to complete the art, so artist just keeps the money and goes on their merry way? No harm no foul.
Seems scammy to me.
Not exactly.
If I give money to an arts "organization" and they fold then I don't get that money back. Not if I give money in the hopes of getting a painting or sculpture or some such thing then that's something completely different.
So I donate so they can continue and have another season, give another performance, "stay open" if it's some sort of small gallery but their costs are prohibitive and they can't continue, then I don't get that money back.
If I give to a listed non-profit, let's say to the now defunct Hartford Ballet then I can't get my money back. That money has to go to another non-profit. Not sure how that's decided.
This is of course if their debts are cleared.
Well I don't see this as similar then. Maybe similar would be for them to say they need to sell at least 300 tickets for a show, get payment for 300+ tickets. Then decide to stop working on the show and keep the money.
I am also not making a legal case, I agree its legal, but why should it continue to be legal is my argument. How does this possibly help the industry as a whole, letting these scammers or very least incompetent people take this money are run.
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Definitely, but even then people would find ways to interpret the word Donate in such a way that they feel entitled to something.
As for the rest, I used the word ‘enticed’ very deliberately
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Yes I agree with you, they are misleading people on purpose no doubt.
It's been 6 months since Tim and his brother left the project, yet Stormhaven Studios is still refusing to talk about the elephant in the room. The company has yet to even announced his the departure. We only learned out about it now from a post made by Tim, 3 months after leaving.
Six months. SIX months of the company's new leadership pretending like things were normal and collecting payments from new pledges. That's messed up.
I still can't wrap my head around it. What could've caused @Renfail 1) to leave the project he founded, and 2) agree to be bound to complete silence??
Not sure if this comment sparked action, but as of this morning, links to the following pages have now been removed from the SoL website:
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Definitely, but even then people would find ways to interpret the word Donate in such a way that they feel entitled to something.
As for the rest, I used the word ‘enticed’ very deliberately
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Look there are donations on patreon or twitch or any other service, people understand its a donation. I know of mods or even in the old days shareware had donation. People understood this was just a gift to the author.
No what is happening here on Crowdfunding, is deliberately misleading by offering a product in return for money. Then not delivering on the product and walking away with the money.
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Definitely, but even then people would find ways to interpret the word Donate in such a way that they feel entitled to something.
As for the rest, I used the word ‘enticed’ very deliberately
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Look there are donations on patreon or twitch or any other service, people understand its a donation. I know of mods or even in the old days shareware had donation. People understood this was just a gift to the author.
No what is happening here on Crowdfunding, is deliberately misleading by offering a product in return for money. Then not delivering on the product and walking away with the money.
But that's not what's going on.
They are saying "we believe we can make this product, there are risks, the project might not be completed or it might change from the initial scope. Knowing this will you still like to give money to the project."
And then at that point, it's let the buyer beware.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Definitely, but even then people would find ways to interpret the word Donate in such a way that they feel entitled to something.
As for the rest, I used the word ‘enticed’ very deliberately
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Look there are donations on patreon or twitch or any other service, people understand its a donation. I know of mods or even in the old days shareware had donation. People understood this was just a gift to the author.
No what is happening here on Crowdfunding, is deliberately misleading by offering a product in return for money. Then not delivering on the product and walking away with the money.
People offer something in return for your donation on Patreon, too. They're generally structured as, I'm working on such and such, and if you donate money now, you'll be able to see the posts I've made so far, as well as future ones.
It's been 6 months since Tim and his brother left the project, yet Stormhaven Studios is still refusing to talk about the elephant in the room. The company has yet to even announced his the departure. We only learned out about it now from a post made by Tim, 3 months after leaving.
Six months. SIX months of the company's new leadership pretending like things were normal and collecting payments from new pledges. That's messed up.
I still can't wrap my head around it. What could've caused @Renfail 1) to leave the project he founded, and 2) agree to be bound to complete silence??
Not sure if this comment sparked action, but as of this morning, links to the following pages have now been removed from the SoL website:
"Pre-Orders have been Suspended at this time. We apologize for any
inconvenience. Feel Free to visit us on our Discord or on the Forums for
updates."
I briefly checked the forums and discord, but don't see any announcement about it.
Interesting! Also, they changed the art of the Avatar/Icon for the SoL Discord...
My guess (no inside knowledge) is that they realize those sites referred to Beta in July of this year and launch in Dec and that there is no way they will hit those targets.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
UPDATE- Apparently there has been an update post in the Alpha forums. That is under NDA so no description for external folks.
I can confirm this and will not comment on the issue any further because I would A. be breaking NDA or B. making up stuff while I know better. Do continue though, its entertaining.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Well I don't see this as similar then. Maybe similar would be for them to say they need to sell at least 300 tickets for a show, get payment for 300+ tickets. Then decide to stop working on the show and keep the money.
I am also not making a legal case, I agree its legal, but why should it continue to be legal is my argument. How does this possibly help the industry as a whole, letting these scammers or very least incompetent people take this money are run.
My only thought is to go back to what has already been suggested and have people/groups who receive money give a list of expenditures.
But then my worry is that every armchair developer/person who gave money will start questioning why they bought x when y is better, why are they buying the group lunch, etc.
I did find this on a site which very well could have been mentioned above (I seem to remember seeing something about an escrow account.)
Platform Escrow with Post-campaign Mandatory Verification (PE-V). Any funds that exceed the campaign’s original goal will be put in escrow until the product is developed successfully. If the product fails to deliver, the money in escrow will be used to refund backers. The platform also must take steps to verify that the product works as promised. To minimize the cost of verification, survey the backers to see what they think of the product. Commission traditional testing, which is costlier, only if backers complain the product didn’t deliver.
On some level, I like this because it forces the organization to ask a realistic amount for their project instead of lowballing knowing that a realistic number will deter donations.
And then anything extra could be used to partly reimburse if things don't work out.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It's been 6 months since Tim and his brother left the project, yet Stormhaven Studios is still refusing to talk about the elephant in the room. The company has yet to even announced his the departure. We only learned out about it now from a post made by Tim, 3 months after leaving.
Six months. SIX months of the company's new leadership pretending like things were normal and collecting payments from new pledges. That's messed up.
I still can't wrap my head around it. What could've caused @Renfail 1) to leave the project he founded, and 2) agree to be bound to complete silence??
Not sure if this comment sparked action, but as of this morning, links to the following pages have now been removed from the SoL website:
"Pre-Orders have been Suspended at this time. We apologize for any
inconvenience. Feel Free to visit us on our Discord or on the Forums for
updates."
I briefly checked the forums and discord, but don't see any announcement about it.
Interesting! Also, they changed the art of the Avatar/Icon for the SoL Discord...
My guess (no inside knowledge) is that they realize those sites referred to Beta in July of this year and launch in Dec and that there is no way they will hit those targets.
Nope... that wasn't it:
(Public Discord Channel) Undone — Today at 1:32 PM
we're working within our current timelines. doing our best to get something going by the end of the year
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Well I don't see this as similar then. Maybe similar would be for them to say they need to sell at least 300 tickets for a show, get payment for 300+ tickets. Then decide to stop working on the show and keep the money.
I am also not making a legal case, I agree its legal, but why should it continue to be legal is my argument. How does this possibly help the industry as a whole, letting these scammers or very least incompetent people take this money are run.
My only thought is to go back to what has already been suggested and have people/groups who receive money give a list of expenditures.
But then my worry is that every armchair developer/person who gave money will start questioning why they bought x when y is better, why are they buying the group lunch, etc.
I did find this on a site which very well could have been mentioned above (I seem to remember seeing something about an escrow account.)
Platform Escrow with Post-campaign Mandatory Verification (PE-V). Any funds that exceed the campaign’s original goal will be put in escrow until the product is developed successfully. If the product fails to deliver, the money in escrow will be used to refund backers. The platform also must take steps to verify that the product works as promised. To minimize the cost of verification, survey the backers to see what they think of the product. Commission traditional testing, which is costlier, only if backers complain the product didn’t deliver.
On some level, I like this because it forces the organization to ask a realistic amount for their project instead of lowballing knowing that a realistic number will deter donations.
And then anything extra could be used to partly reimburse if things don't work out.
This is not a bad plan, give the game some money, but then make them earn the rest. Really wish this was implemented for Crowdfunding.
Well I don't see this as similar then. Maybe similar would be for them to say they need to sell at least 300 tickets for a show, get payment for 300+ tickets. Then decide to stop working on the show and keep the money.
I am also not making a legal case, I agree its legal, but why should it continue to be legal is my argument. How does this possibly help the industry as a whole, letting these scammers or very least incompetent people take this money are run.
My only thought is to go back to what has already been suggested and have people/groups who receive money give a list of expenditures.
But then my worry is that every armchair developer/person who gave money will start questioning why they bought x when y is better, why are they buying the group lunch, etc.
I did find this on a site which very well could have been mentioned above (I seem to remember seeing something about an escrow account.)
Platform Escrow with Post-campaign Mandatory Verification (PE-V). Any funds that exceed the campaign’s original goal will be put in escrow until the product is developed successfully. If the product fails to deliver, the money in escrow will be used to refund backers. The platform also must take steps to verify that the product works as promised. To minimize the cost of verification, survey the backers to see what they think of the product. Commission traditional testing, which is costlier, only if backers complain the product didn’t deliver.
On some level, I like this because it forces the organization to ask a realistic amount for their project instead of lowballing knowing that a realistic number will deter donations.
And then anything extra could be used to partly reimburse if things don't work out.
The problem of lowballing seems to come directly from Kickstarter. I think it pays when the desired amount is reached (minus the 5%). This definition considers any campaign that reaches the minimum amount to be 'successful'. I think this contributes to the high success rate of MMORPG KS success rates as was recently listed on MOP's article. Companies lowball a project cost in the hopes of getting something, even if that is only some seed money for other financial endeavors. (The distinction is that KS is a specific site/program to raise money, whereas Crowdfunding could be any public fund raising effort).
I could be drastically wrong here.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Well I don't see this as similar then. Maybe similar would be for them to say they need to sell at least 300 tickets for a show, get payment for 300+ tickets. Then decide to stop working on the show and keep the money.
I am also not making a legal case, I agree its legal, but why should it continue to be legal is my argument. How does this possibly help the industry as a whole, letting these scammers or very least incompetent people take this money are run.
My only thought is to go back to what has already been suggested and have people/groups who receive money give a list of expenditures.
But then my worry is that every armchair developer/person who gave money will start questioning why they bought x when y is better, why are they buying the group lunch, etc.
I did find this on a site which very well could have been mentioned above (I seem to remember seeing something about an escrow account.)
Platform Escrow with Post-campaign Mandatory Verification (PE-V). Any funds that exceed the campaign’s original goal will be put in escrow until the product is developed successfully. If the product fails to deliver, the money in escrow will be used to refund backers. The platform also must take steps to verify that the product works as promised. To minimize the cost of verification, survey the backers to see what they think of the product. Commission traditional testing, which is costlier, only if backers complain the product didn’t deliver.
On some level, I like this because it forces the organization to ask a realistic amount for their project instead of lowballing knowing that a realistic number will deter donations.
And then anything extra could be used to partly reimburse if things don't work out.
The problem of lowballing seems to come directly from Kickstarter. I think it pays when the desired amount is reached (minus the 5%). This definition considers any campaign that reaches the minimum amount to be 'successful'. I think this contributes to the high success rate of MMORPG KS success rates as was recently listed on MOP's article. Companies lowball a project cost in the hopes of getting something, even if that is only some seed money for other financial endeavors. (The distinction is that KS is a specific site/program to raise money, whereas Crowdfunding could be any public fund raising effort).
I could be drastically wrong here.
KS does state that the amount requested has to equal the amount expected to fully fund the project I believe.
But I think everyone focusing on KS is focusing on the wrong thing. The overwhelming amount of funding to most of these Crowdfunded Projects comes in through direct sales on their own websites.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Six months late, but they've finally acknowledged that Tim & his brother are no longer w/ Stormhaven studios.
The statement reads like a PR announcement carefully crafted by an attorney to cover their butts. It doesn't tell us anything about why he is no longer involved, just that Tim and his brother have "withdrawn". Involuntarily, voluntarily... "Withdrawn" could literally mean anything!
Without telling us a good reason for their departure, I don't understand how the new leadership at Stromhaven studios expects anyone to trust them. It just makes it look like they're hiding something shady they did and they're hoping with enough time we all forget about it and stop asking questions.
Six months late, but they've finally acknowledged that Tim & his brother are no longer w/ Stormhaven studios.
The statement reads like a PR announcement carefully crafted by an attorney to cover their butts. It doesn't tell us anything about why he is no longer involved, just that Tim and his brother have "withdrawn". Involuntarily, voluntarily... "Withdrawn" could literally mean anything!
Without telling us a good reason for their departure, I don't understand how the new leadership at Stromhaven studios expects anyone to trust them. It just makes it look like they're hiding something shady they did and they're hoping with enough time we all forget about it and stop asking questions.
At least, that's how this situation looks to me.
Their Alpha (aka paid customer) update and Discord channel contains more details and I guess that's who they need to update. Especially now that the Store is down and they aren't selling anything to new people for the time being...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Definitely, but even then people would find ways to interpret the word Donate in such a way that they feel entitled to something.
As for the rest, I used the word ‘enticed’ very deliberately
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Look there are donations on patreon or twitch or any other service, people understand its a donation. I know of mods or even in the old days shareware had donation. People understood this was just a gift to the author.
No what is happening here on Crowdfunding, is deliberately misleading by offering a product in return for money. Then not delivering on the product and walking away with the money.
But that's not what's going on.
They are saying "we believe we can make this product, there are risks, the project might not be completed or it might change from the initial scope. Knowing this will you still like to give money to the project."
And then at that point, it's let the buyer beware.
More like -
"after we get your money, you will never get it back and we can do fuck all with it never put an hour of work into the project. We can litteraly buy coke and do lines off hookers bare asses and you will never know any different. After we blow all the cash we will post a heartfelt "we tried really hard but the project could not be completed" message- but don't worry our next Kickstarter is here where we will apply all the lessons learned and be successful. Trust us!"
That should be the real warning.
At this point however, since SOL was not done through crowd fund but direct sales, this would be good time to lawyer up, or if you used a credit card, contact your credit card company and request a chargback, as the only way for a retailer to challenge a chargeback is to prove that they provided the product or service.
Just saying the rules change a lot when it was a sale, as opposed to a crowd funded project.
With the biggest divider being that you can fail a crowdfund, you are not allowed to fail when selling a product
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Yes I agree with you, they are misleading people on purpose no doubt.
There we agree, many MMO crowd funded projects do mislead people, but not this particular one IMO.
They clearly said they had no prior experience, gave 5 solid reasons not to donate (updated regularly btw), didn't run a continuous store front of pre order goods, actually stopped taking donations for a period, going dark to work on the game, and...had a bit of an arse as spokesperson who never went out of his way to win donations with his charm.
Clearly we aren't being told the whole story, but I just can't classify this one as a blantent scam.
No one can say they had no idea what they were getting into here or that the chances of a fun, playable game being delivered were even lower than most.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Kickstarter, says several times over that you are not buying a product, that their site is to crowdfund ideas, you are NOT purchasing goods and services, you are backing a potential product, and they do this, just so that people won't get the idea into their heads that this is a purchase, because it is not.
However, even with Kickstarter saying all over their site that this is not a purchase and that you are backing a venture which may or may not be successful (I believe they boast around an 80% Success), and is not a purchase and should not be treated as such, it seems some people still don't get that.
It is that kind of being deliberately obtuse about what the situation is, that I have an issue with.
The real easiest solution is, if someone can't accept the risks of backing a project, which may fail, and realize that money gets spent regardless of success or fails, that they should not get involved with crowdfunding projects, and should instead spend their money on buying things off Amazon or Steam. It's that simple.
The problem is that Kickstarter as a platform gets 5% of any successfully funded project.
Kickstarter doesn't care at all what happens after that - if the project is successful or if it fails- they already gor their 5%
This is why there are no regulations on how the money is spent or if the project was a total scam - kickstarter platform doesn't give a shit, they got their money.
Kickstarter should be shut down- as well as any other platform like it - as all they do is encourage people good will to be taken advantage of by so many scammers
When you setup a platform that is basically a scammers wet dream - where you can get money that you can keep regardless if you ever even intend to finish a project as long as you make a sales pitch good enough to get donations- yeah that shit should be shut down.
And Kickstarter doesn't care that they are enabling scammers because hey 5% of successfully funded amount for hosting a simple donation site- its such easy money.
Kickstarter platform has had 5.4 billion successfully funded projects - at 5% - they made $270 million for just hosting a donation website.
Think about that for a minute
Which makes it even more ostentatious that someone would feel entitled to a 100% refund, as Kickstarter takes a nonrefundable 5% cut, don't you think?
I personally think it's great that they have funded 5.4 billion for projects, with a very positive success rate at that, which means, the vast majority of the people starting projects and people backing them, know what they want and what they are doing
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Yes I agree with you, they are misleading people on purpose no doubt.
There we agree, many MMO crowd funded projects do mislead people, but not this particular one IMO.
They clearly said they had no prior experience, gave 5 solid reasons not to donate (updated regularly btw), didn't run a continuous store front of pre order goods, actually stopped taking donations for a period, going dark to work on the game, and...had a bit of an arse as spokesperson who never went out of his way to win donations with his charm.
Clearly we aren't being told the whole story, but I just can't classify this one as a blantent scam.
No one can say they had no idea what they were getting into here or that the chances of a fun, playable game being delivered were even lower than most.
WWhil this is all well and good, it's still illegal to sell a product you cannot provide
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
To be honest, I like this idea better, as it would remove the sense of entitlement that some people have thinking that if the project fails, they should get 100% of their money back.
What is your problem with backers? Why do you feel they deserve to be punished?
Backers are asked to give xxx money, they met their obligation, you don't think its now the devs responsibility to deliver the product they said they could make with that money?
Do you also feel this way, when you buy something online and they send you a defective product or worse no product at all?
I guess this is why I use Amazon Prime because I know I will get 100% money back if the item is not exactly as described. Precisely why I wont be using Crowdfunding or giving money to these shady games until there is 100% certainty in the future.
Why do you feel like backers are being punished? They donate to a project to increase its chances of succes/launch. That is all it really is at the end of the day, they even do it out of free will. No one is really being punished here. Enticed? Yes.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
If companies just put a big red button on their store page that said PRESS TO DONATE and it had no product listing we would all be better off.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
Yes I agree with you, they are misleading people on purpose no doubt.
There we agree, many MMO crowd funded projects do mislead people, but not this particular one IMO.
They clearly said they had no prior experience, gave 5 solid reasons not to donate (updated regularly btw), didn't run a continuous store front of pre order goods, actually stopped taking donations for a period, going dark to work on the game, and...had a bit of an arse as spokesperson who never went out of his way to win donations with his charm.
Clearly we aren't being told the whole story, but I just can't classify this one as a blantent scam.
No one can say they had no idea what they were getting into here or that the chances of a fun, playable game being delivered were even lower than most.
WWhil this is all well and good, it's still illegal to sell a product you cannot provide
Did they sell a product or take donations.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
However, even with Kickstarter saying all over their site that this is not a purchase and that you are backing a venture which may or may not be successful (I believe they boast around an 80% Success), and is not a purchase and should not be treated as such, it seems some people still don't get that.
It is that kind of being deliberately obtuse about what the situation is, that I have an issue with.
The real easiest solution is, if someone can't accept the risks of backing a project, which may fail, and realize that money gets spent regardless of success or fails, that they should not get involved with crowdfunding projects, and should instead spend their money on buying things off Amazon or Steam. It's that simple.
Well I don't see this as similar then. Maybe similar would be for them to say they need to sell at least 300 tickets for a show, get payment for 300+ tickets. Then decide to stop working on the show and keep the money.
I am also not making a legal case, I agree its legal, but why should it continue to be legal is my argument. How does this possibly help the industry as a whole, letting these scammers or very least incompetent people take this money are run.
That's not what they do though. They literally have Stores, that have monthly Sales, that list Products that you can Purchase. If you look at the TOS, many of them even describe "Sale of Goods".
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
As for the rest, I used the word ‘enticed’ very deliberately
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
No what is happening here on Crowdfunding, is deliberately misleading by offering a product in return for money. Then not delivering on the product and walking away with the money.
They are saying "we believe we can make this product, there are risks, the project might not be completed or it might change from the initial scope. Knowing this will you still like to give money to the project."
And then at that point, it's let the buyer beware.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
My guess (no inside knowledge) is that they realize those sites referred to Beta in July of this year and launch in Dec and that there is no way they will hit those targets.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
But then my worry is that every armchair developer/person who gave money will start questioning why they bought x when y is better, why are they buying the group lunch, etc.
I did find this on a site which very well could have been mentioned above (I seem to remember seeing something about an escrow account.)
On some level, I like this because it forces the organization to ask a realistic amount for their project instead of lowballing knowing that a realistic number will deter donations.
And then anything extra could be used to partly reimburse if things don't work out.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
But I think everyone focusing on KS is focusing on the wrong thing. The overwhelming amount of funding to most of these Crowdfunded Projects comes in through direct sales on their own websites.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
They clearly said they had no prior experience, gave 5 solid reasons not to donate (updated regularly btw), didn't run a continuous store front of pre order goods, actually stopped taking donations for a period, going dark to work on the game, and...had a bit of an arse as spokesperson who never went out of his way to win donations with his charm.
Clearly we aren't being told the whole story, but I just can't classify this one as a blantent scam.
No one can say they had no idea what they were getting into here or that the chances of a fun, playable game being delivered were even lower than most.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo