Hey, know what Ides of March, I'll admit it, I am an idiot. I was reading your forum status as your name. Oops. Anyhow, you're right. Bickering about it here isn't going to change anything about the game, true, but I DO hope that by offering strong points within my ranting that it will sway some people opinions about death penalties. Who knows, it's just something I (clearly) feel pretty strongly about, and I can get a little roused when people just resign themselves to being under the yoke of such a terrible game machanic, instead of tryng to impliment a change for the better. And that comment someone made that going afk while playing a game involves taking a risk? That really set me off, cause it's scary. Reminds me of that old Pearl Jam video where the guy was attached by cords from his eyes, mouth, ears and nose to his computer, which was sucking the life out of him. Of all the myriad reasons xp loss should be out of games, that is primary, I think. The ability to leave the computer WHENEVER YOU WANT without fear of some game designers petty reprisal. Also, you said trash talking about getting killed happens in every pvp game? Hate to do it, but I'll bring up WOW again. Nope, it doesn't. They did a fantastic thing by throwing a language barrier down between opposing races, thus eliminating this facet of the game altogether. And besides, why trash talk someone if it didn't even cost you anything? I don't play WOW anymore, but when I did the pvp was fun, exciting, invigorating. I could sit down one day and say, you know, I feel like pummeling some alliance dogs today! And I could spend an entire afternoon with friends having great times. Killing and getting killed left right and centre. Taking risks, making mistakes , and sometimes being truly humbled by an opponent, who instead of being angry at I instead could have a grudging respect for.
And it cost me nothing. No xp loss. An afternoon of fun. The kind of fun that could never, ever exist in an xp loss game, since you'd likely have to play for two weeks just to make up for all the dying. WOW succeeded where other games didn't because it made everything fun. Even death.
But hey, if you still havent change your mind... I admit. 3% isn't a huge debt to pay. It still couldn't justify a rampantly fun pvp session, but oh well. The thing is, althought there is no chance of me ever thinking that xp loss is a fine idea, I can sit back and know that someday death penaly supporters willl be out there playing, and get griefed, or killed by some dumb mistake, or an idiot party member, or even (gasp) the doorbell that their game MUST NOT ALLOW THEM TO LEAVE THE CPU for. And their time will be ripped away from them, and they'll sit back, angry, and think...this sucks. It's gonna happen.
Death penalties used to be big. 15, 10%. Now they are either nonexistent (in hugely successful games) or very low. I wonder why that might be? They are on their way out, I assure you. It's just too bad some game companies can't embrace the future, instead of cling to crumbling mechanics of the past.
Ah well. I just hope Archlord isn't one of those Korean grind machines like lineage was. Don't even get me started on GRINDING! Ha ha.
I agree with Ides, there neeeds to be a death penalty or we get that rambo-style all over. I was used to think before doing anything in L2. And this is nothing outdatet. If you dont like it, dont play it. Simple, isnt it?
Yeah, Rambo Style. I hate that. Worse thing in a game ever, eh? Yeah. Rambo....what? What!? You're saying that a rambo style of play is the game-ruining equivelant of griefing and xp loss? C'mon, haha!
And I guess your right, xp loss isn't going out of style at all. That's why they keep getting bigger and bigger right? Soon when you die you'll just die, and your character will be gone entirely. Wouldn't that be awesome!? Then people would really, really think before they do things! Just like in real life, right? Hey, that way we could make it just like real life and take out the fun of being reckless in a game right? No more Rambo..er..Ram...
Huh?
I've yet to see a valid point raised for the death penalty, or at least one beyond 'keeping people from going all guns blazing'...um, is it just me, or does all guns blazing sound kind of exciting? Just a little. Doesn't it sound a little more exciting than xp loss?
Try saying it. ...All guns blazing! ...xp loss. ...hm.
Are there ANY other reasons anyone would like to give besides the dreaded 'rambo-style' theory. Keep in mind I've raised about 50 valid points against it, all of which blow the rambo thing out of the water, I think.
No, no I think I will play Archlord, and (man am I ever laughing right now) if you could all give me your character names so I could grief you over and over and show you a far worse aspect of the game than 'all guns blazing'. Geez! Rambo style? Are you kidding me? Is it so terrible? Worse than griefing? No, don't answer that, cause it's not.
Every post in favour of the death penalty just restates someones disdain for 'reckless play'. I covered it in an earlier post: In WOW (no xp loss) we still thought before doing things, or else we'd have the sting of defeat (not the agonizing loss of xp) and a corpse run ahead of us. It was enough. Stupid people will play the game regardless, and they will do stupid things.
As I said before though. If even basic logic can't change your mind, someday griefers will, or an afternoon spent playing instead of doing something you were supposed to do and having it drained away by an unfortunate death.
A game in which you cannot get up and answer the phone/doorbell/family without fear of xp loss is not a game. It is something much worse. Worse than 'rambo-style'. Well, almost.
What is your problem? Making a book out of every comment? I already said i dont mind cuz i was used to it.
Yeah, Rambo Style. I hate that. Worse thing in a game ever, eh? Yeah. Rambo....what? What!? You're saying that a rambo style of play is the game-ruining equivelant of griefing and xp loss? C'mon, haha!
Did i said that? No.
And I guess your right, xp loss isn't going out of style at all. That's why they keep getting bigger and bigger right? Soon when you die you'll just die, and your character will be gone entirely. Wouldn't that be awesome!? Then people would really, really think before they do things! Just like in real life, right? Hey, that way we could make it just like real life and take out the fun of being reckless in a game right? No more Rambo..er..Ram...
What has this to do with real life? And i will soon just die and die and die and .... ye and i will be gone forever! *laughs*
Try saying it. ...All guns blazing! ...xp loss. ...hm.
Are there ANY other reasons anyone would like to give besides the dreaded 'rambo-style' theory. Keep in mind I've raised about 50 valid points against it, all of which blow the rambo thing out of the water, I think.
No, no I think I will play Archlord, and (man am I ever laughing right now) if you could all give me your character names so I could grief you over and over and show you a far worse aspect of the game than 'all guns blazing'. Geez! Rambo style? Are you kidding me? Is it so terrible? Worse than griefing? No, don't answer that, cause it's not.
Every post in favour of the death penalty just restates someones disdain for 'reckless play'. I covered it in an earlier post: In WOW (no xp loss) we still thought before doing things, or else we'd have the sting of defeat (not the agonizing loss of xp) and a corpse run ahead of us. It was enough. Stupid people will play the game regardless, and they will do stupid things.
As I said before though. If even basic logic can't change your mind, someday griefers will, or an afternoon spent playing instead of doing something you were supposed to do and having it drained away by an unfortunate death.
A game in which you cannot get up and answer the phone/doorbell/family without fear of xp loss is not a game. It is something much worse. Worse than 'rambo-style'. Well, almost.
I already said, if you dont like it, dont play it. Dont take peoples words and make em into flames and useless comments cuz they have other opinions. And what has it to do with griefing? Your valid points are doorbells/phone/family ? Oh yea, try saying 'afk' if you party. If you solo and this happens, its your own fault.
Man, that last post was LONG! Not that it had any valid points, mind you. It just quoted mine back to me, and wow, did I ever make sense there! I seriously do not mean to flame. I think flaming is when you write a post that is neither discussion nor debate, merely trying to make fun of a previous post. Kind of like your last one, actually. I'm sorry my posts seem long to you--it takes some time to actually form cohesive arguments about a topic, as opposed to writing: "xp loss keeps dumb people from making rash decisions", which seems to be the only point death penalty advocates have to spew. Heck, even I can think of another one for you! Hows this: Having xp loss makes the player have to play much longer to finally reach the level cap, therefore exhausting more of their time and ultimately earning more money for the company! See that wasn't so hard. You try!
Then again, out of the twenty or so friends I know that play mmorpg's, none of them will leave WOW for a game that has a death penalty. I tried to get them onto DDO, but it didn't happen. And those for whom World of Warcraft was their first mmorpg experience...they can't even fathom that a mechanism like xp loss ever existed! They won't believe it! I try telling them 'yeah, every time you died! Every single time you died you lost xp! The higher lvl you were, the more you lost!" It blows their minds, as it blows mine that Archlord even feels a 3% one is needed. It IS a small one, I'll give them that, but why, even? It certainly won't deter dumb people from being dumb, and why punish players with something that the industry is so obviously phasing out? From a 15% loss, to 10, to 3...hmm...what could be next.
Sorry for the long post, there I go raising valid points again! I am enjoying this debate, btw, if only to air my own feelings on the subject. Someone agree with me so I can go away! haha
And to the last poster...yes, my 'valid points' are doorbell/phone/family, which is a fancy way of saying 'real life'. If I really wanted to flame you I'd ask if that was a picture of your girlfriend at the bottom of your post. She's hot! And I bet she doesn't bother you while you're playing, right? Perfect, then.
I think its up to anyone by their selfs if they wanna play a game with death penalty or not. If you agree with it and give it a try, then ok. If not, keep your current game or it will be a waste of time. And theres also the beta. You dont have to pay anything and you can test the game. Your not forced to play AL. For the RL stuff. It happens in all mmorpg's to a lot of peoples. Heck, it even happens to me but im on my own then. Its not the dev's fault.
The difference between AL and L2? Well i wouldn't know because im still waiting to get into the beta.
But from what a buddy tells me about the game i can say this. It's much much more kind to the player. I have been in L2 since closed beta and still play, every day. "Why?" was the question i started asking myself a few months back.
Answer: The friends i've made throughout the years, and the time i've spent grinding my toon. The %death penalty ain't that bad. We have "Elven Elders" scattered through every alliance. Which have a 80% ressurection spell so it's all good.
Lineage 2 is very hardcore, very Korean, in fact i don't think there is any other game out there that has the same kind of insane grind.
Im not high lvl in L2 even tho i've played for many years. Im lvl 61 (out of 78 possible) But as it is now, i get roughly 0.04% per mob killed. Each mob taking (if i solo) about 25 secs to drop. Do the math, if i continuesly slay on, how long would it take for me to get 100%? Take in consideration the trip to town to load up on misc pots and soulshots.
Here's the tricky part, i can't spend more then 3 hours straight hunting. It's impossible. I need variation, here's where i hope, REALLY hope, ArchLord will be different. Cuz in L2, there's nothing else you can do except grind. Sure you can run around Roleplaying i guess. I don't have a problem with people that roleplay, but i know many friends that do, and eventho they started playing same time as me, some are still 20 lvl's under me. And I lvl slow. Some insane people has already reached lvl 78, then subclassed, and grinded that sub to 78, then become 'Noblesse' and some even 'Hero'.
So ArchLord, please be different so i can leave Lineage2 forever.
Personally I agree with Gable. XP loss is unnecessarily punishing paying customers. I normally play glass cannon classes...you know the ones with no defense and all offense. Games that have xp loss punish that playing style.
If you go to a restaurant as a paying customer and order a huge steak you don't get punched by the waiter if you can't finish it; you get a doggy bag so you can finish it later. Same thing here, I'm paying to play a game and negating time spent, (or more pointedly...time bought), isn't a practice that developers should be following.
It was fine on the first gen MMORPGs, but gaming has evolved and so should the developer's mindset. If we stuck to old standards we'd still be playing Pong.
All I got to say about how GREAT this game is going to be is that they have the world famous orchestra involved.. and if they got money to pay for sound like that, this game is got to rock
Comments
Hey, know what Ides of March, I'll admit it, I am an idiot. I was reading your forum status as your name. Oops.
Anyhow, you're right. Bickering about it here isn't going to change anything about the game, true, but I DO hope that by offering strong points within my ranting that it will sway some people opinions about death penalties. Who knows, it's just something I (clearly) feel pretty strongly about, and I can get a little roused when people just resign themselves to being under the yoke of such a terrible game machanic, instead of tryng to impliment a change for the better.
And that comment someone made that going afk while playing a game involves taking a risk? That really set me off, cause it's scary. Reminds me of that old Pearl Jam video where the guy was attached by cords from his eyes, mouth, ears and nose to his computer, which was sucking the life out of him. Of all the myriad reasons xp loss should be out of games, that is primary, I think. The ability to leave the computer WHENEVER YOU WANT without fear of some game designers petty reprisal.
Also, you said trash talking about getting killed happens in every pvp game? Hate to do it, but I'll bring up WOW again. Nope, it doesn't. They did a fantastic thing by throwing a language barrier down between opposing races, thus eliminating this facet of the game altogether. And besides, why trash talk someone if it didn't even cost you anything?
I don't play WOW anymore, but when I did the pvp was fun, exciting, invigorating. I could sit down one day and say, you know, I feel like pummeling some alliance dogs today! And I could spend an entire afternoon with friends having great times. Killing and getting killed left right and centre. Taking risks, making mistakes , and sometimes being truly humbled by an opponent, who instead of being angry at I instead could have a grudging respect for.
And it cost me nothing. No xp loss. An afternoon of fun. The kind of fun that could never, ever exist in an xp loss game, since you'd likely have to play for two weeks just to make up for all the dying. WOW succeeded where other games didn't because it made everything fun. Even death.
But hey, if you still havent change your mind...
I admit. 3% isn't a huge debt to pay. It still couldn't justify a rampantly fun pvp session, but oh well. The thing is, althought there is no chance of me ever thinking that xp loss is a fine idea, I can sit back and know that someday death penaly supporters willl be out there playing, and get griefed, or killed by some dumb mistake, or an idiot party member, or even (gasp) the doorbell that their game MUST NOT ALLOW THEM TO LEAVE THE CPU for. And their time will be ripped away from them, and they'll sit back, angry, and think...this sucks. It's gonna happen.
Death penalties used to be big. 15, 10%. Now they are either nonexistent (in hugely successful games) or very low. I wonder why that might be? They are on their way out, I assure you. It's just too bad some game companies can't embrace the future, instead of cling to crumbling mechanics of the past.
Ah well. I just hope Archlord isn't one of those Korean grind machines like lineage was. Don't even get me started on GRINDING! Ha ha.
Wer früher stirbt ist länger tot !!!
I agree with Ides, there neeeds to be a death penalty or we get that rambo-style all over. I was used to think before doing anything in L2. And this is nothing outdatet.
If you dont like it, dont play it.
Simple, isnt it?
Yeah, Rambo Style. I hate that. Worse thing in a game ever, eh? Yeah. Rambo....what? What!? You're saying that a rambo style of play is the game-ruining equivelant of griefing and xp loss? C'mon, haha!
And I guess your right, xp loss isn't going out of style at all. That's why they keep getting bigger and bigger right? Soon when you die you'll just die, and your character will be gone entirely. Wouldn't that be awesome!? Then people would really, really think before they do things! Just like in real life, right? Hey, that way we could make it just like real life and take out the fun of being reckless in a game right? No more Rambo..er..Ram...
Huh?
I've yet to see a valid point raised for the death penalty, or at least one beyond 'keeping people from going all guns blazing'...um, is it just me, or does all guns blazing sound kind of exciting? Just a little. Doesn't it sound a little more exciting than xp loss?
Try saying it.
...All guns blazing!
...xp loss.
...hm.
Are there ANY other reasons anyone would like to give besides the dreaded 'rambo-style' theory. Keep in mind I've raised about 50 valid points against it, all of which blow the rambo thing out of the water, I think.
No, no I think I will play Archlord, and (man am I ever laughing right now) if you could all give me your character names so I could grief you over and over and show you a far worse aspect of the game than 'all guns blazing'. Geez! Rambo style? Are you kidding me? Is it so terrible? Worse than griefing? No, don't answer that, cause it's not.
Every post in favour of the death penalty just restates someones disdain for 'reckless play'. I covered it in an earlier post: In WOW (no xp loss) we still thought before doing things, or else we'd have the sting of defeat (not the agonizing loss of xp) and a corpse run ahead of us. It was enough. Stupid people will play the game regardless, and they will do stupid things.
As I said before though. If even basic logic can't change your mind, someday griefers will, or an afternoon spent playing instead of doing something you were supposed to do and having it drained away by an unfortunate death.
A game in which you cannot get up and answer the phone/doorbell/family without fear of xp loss is not a game. It is something much worse. Worse than 'rambo-style'. Well, almost.
What is your problem? Making a book out of every comment?
I already said i dont mind cuz i was used to it.
Did i said that? No.
What has this to do with real life? And i will soon just die and die and die and .... ye and i will be gone forever! *laughs*
I already said, if you dont like it, dont play it. Dont take peoples words and make em into flames and useless comments cuz they have other opinions. And what has it to do with griefing? Your valid points are doorbells/phone/family ? Oh yea, try saying 'afk' if you party. If you solo and this happens, its your own fault.
Man, that last post was LONG!
Not that it had any valid points, mind you. It just quoted mine back to me, and wow, did I ever make sense there!
I seriously do not mean to flame. I think flaming is when you write a post that is neither discussion nor debate, merely trying to make fun of a previous post. Kind of like your last one, actually.
I'm sorry my posts seem long to you--it takes some time to actually form cohesive arguments about a topic, as opposed to writing: "xp loss keeps dumb people from making rash decisions", which seems to be the only point death penalty advocates have to spew.
Heck, even I can think of another one for you! Hows this: Having xp loss makes the player have to play much longer to finally reach the level cap, therefore exhausting more of their time and ultimately earning more money for the company!
See that wasn't so hard. You try!
Then again, out of the twenty or so friends I know that play mmorpg's, none of them will leave WOW for a game that has a death penalty. I tried to get them onto DDO, but it didn't happen. And those for whom World of Warcraft was their first mmorpg experience...they can't even fathom that a mechanism like xp loss ever existed! They won't believe it! I try telling them 'yeah, every time you died! Every single time you died you lost xp! The higher lvl you were, the more you lost!"
It blows their minds, as it blows mine that Archlord even feels a 3% one is needed. It IS a small one, I'll give them that, but why, even? It certainly won't deter dumb people from being dumb, and why punish players with something that the industry is so obviously phasing out? From a 15% loss, to 10, to 3...hmm...what could be next.
Sorry for the long post, there I go raising valid points again! I am enjoying this debate, btw, if only to air my own feelings on the subject. Someone agree with me so I can go away! haha
And to the last poster...yes, my 'valid points' are doorbell/phone/family, which is a fancy way of saying 'real life'.
If I really wanted to flame you I'd ask if that was a picture of your girlfriend at the bottom of your post. She's hot! And I bet she doesn't bother you while you're playing, right? Perfect, then.
I think its up to anyone by their selfs if they wanna play a game with death penalty or not. If you agree with it and give it a try, then ok. If not, keep your current game or it will be a waste of time. And theres also the beta. You dont have to pay anything and you can test the game.
Your not forced to play AL.
For the RL stuff. It happens in all mmorpg's to a lot of peoples. Heck, it even happens to me but im on my own then. Its not the dev's fault.
www.blacklistedclan.com
But from what a buddy tells me about the game i can say this. It's much much more kind to the player.
I have been in L2 since closed beta and still play, every day.
"Why?" was the question i started asking myself a few months back.
Answer: The friends i've made throughout the years, and the time i've spent grinding my toon.
The %death penalty ain't that bad. We have "Elven Elders" scattered through every alliance.
Which have a 80% ressurection spell so it's all good.
Lineage 2 is very hardcore, very Korean, in fact i don't think there is any other game out there that has
the same kind of insane grind.
Im not high lvl in L2 even tho i've played for many years. Im lvl 61 (out of 78 possible)
But as it is now, i get roughly 0.04% per mob killed. Each mob taking (if i solo) about 25 secs to drop.
Do the math, if i continuesly slay on, how long would it take for me to get 100%?
Take in consideration the trip to town to load up on misc pots and soulshots.
Here's the tricky part, i can't spend more then 3 hours straight hunting. It's impossible.
I need variation, here's where i hope, REALLY hope, ArchLord will be different.
Cuz in L2, there's nothing else you can do except grind. Sure you can run around Roleplaying i guess.
I don't have a problem with people that roleplay, but i know many friends that do, and eventho they started playing same time as me, some are still 20 lvl's under me. And I lvl slow. Some insane people has already reached lvl 78, then subclassed, and grinded that sub to 78, then become 'Noblesse' and some even 'Hero'.
So ArchLord, please be different so i can leave Lineage2 forever.
Personally I agree with Gable. XP loss is unnecessarily punishing paying customers. I normally play glass cannon classes...you know the ones with no defense and all offense. Games that have xp loss punish that playing style.
If you go to a restaurant as a paying customer and order a huge steak you don't get punched by the waiter if you can't finish it; you get a doggy bag so you can finish it later. Same thing here, I'm paying to play a game and negating time spent, (or more pointedly...time bought), isn't a practice that developers should be following.
It was fine on the first gen MMORPGs, but gaming has evolved and so should the developer's mindset. If we stuck to old standards we'd still be playing Pong.
Lets just hope that there will be no farmers in that game