If that is your idea of massive than I suppose you consider just about every popular game with an online option to be a mmo?
No, I am pointing out how absurd it would be to consider every multiplayer online game with a lobby to match players for instances to be an MMO. Obviously you consider that absurd as well and so we agree.
But the OP is pointing out that this patch 3.3 is moving WoW closer to meeting that description, and hence moving it away from being an MMO and towards being just another online multiplayer game. I agree with the OP.
Massive isn't in how many players you can interact with this instant it's in how many player are available to interact with. If this were the definition, all the First-person shooters that allow online play would be MMOFPS, all the strategy games like Civilization 4 or Starcraft become MMO strategy, etc.
So how many players can you interact with, I didn't say chat with I said interact with, in those games at once?
And yeah if you watch the technology that style of game is bordering on becoming massive. Not quite there yet and never in the quality of a four to eight player game but they're getting there.
The thing I don't like is that a game like wow slowly moves towards that type of gameplay. I'm sure a lot of players will love it, I'm just not one of them and am afraid that too many other mmo devellopers will copy this trend.
If that is your idea of massive than I suppose you consider just about every popular game with an online option to be a mmo? No, I am pointing out how absurd it would be to consider every multiplayer online game with a lobby to match players for instances to be an MMO. Obviously you consider that absurd as well and so we agree. But the OP is pointing out that this patch 3.3 is moving WoW closer to meeting that description, and hence moving it away from being an MMO and towards being just another online multiplayer game. I agree with the OP.
Funny that you wrote this while I wrote kinda the same time in the meantime. We seem to think more alike than I expected.
So how many players can you interact with, I didn't say chat with I said interact with, in those games at once?
You said:
Massive isn't in how many players you can interact with this instant it's in how many player are available to interact with.
Um, isn't "this instant" mean the same as "at once" ? So the number of players I can interact with at once is not what make it massive, according to you. It's how many players are "available to interact", and since online FPS have massive lobbies full of players ready to interact with you (by joining an instance with you), they seem to be massive by your definition.
I seem to be in a very small minority but this whole cross-serving matching idea makes me uneasy. It further erodes the notion of immersion and community in MMOs. After all, there is no need to cultivate a good reputation or circle of playing partners if you can simply port straight into an instance with a bunch of complete strangers that you will never meet again. I've met some of my closest MMO friends in PuGs and, as I understand it, this new development takes that possibility away since most of the time you will likely be matched with people from different servers. I can see the benefits of the system, particularly with regard to low-level instances, but as the OP says this really is a major step for WoW on the way to becoming a multiplayer online game rather than a MMORPG. What worries me is that this will become considered an essential feature for future MMOs because while it works well for WoW it will not suit games which place greater emphasis on immersion and community.
First: the LFG tool is a complementary tool: you can form a group with your closest friends and fill in the 1 or 2 spots with it in NO time.
Secondly: it only works for the dungeons (leveling and end game), so Raids need to be done on server.
Third; always look at the complete package with Blizzard: they add a guild leveling system in Cata.
Fourth: Azeroth-Northrend-Outland are H U G E these days and with 50% of the people at the end game, it is a terrific idea to be able to play ALL dungeons throughout the game with 150.000 people on line.
So Blizzard found a solution to old content being played in groups. THE END of telling "you only level by solo play" in WOW.
You can level with ANY combo now and fill in the spots for doing the dungeon quests on the spot (like I said even at 01.00 AM. Just another option). Those adventures with your friends won't suffer. On the contrary.
The twists and turns WOW haters are taking around this is very satisfying: it shows Blizzard heads again in another succesful direction.
And of course new MMORPG's should take a good look at it.
2010 means 24/7 on line group play be it in PvP or in PVE at YOUR time and place, not ALWAYS at THEIR time and place.
First: When I stopped playing WoW it was already very difficult to find a group using the original LFG options. It will now be impossible since the majority will simply use the more efficient cross-server matching. The tools are not really complementary since the new system reduces the number of players available to the old LFG system thus reducing its already poor effectiveness.
Secondly: This has no bearing on my original post but ok.
Third: I have no idea what the guild levelling system is but it's irrelevant anyway since Cataclysm will not be released for a while yet. Perhaps we can discuss it then.
Fourth: I agree the cross-server matching is a fantastic way of enabling players to enjoy the older, lower-level instances.
For what it's worth i'm not a WoW hater as you will probably see if you look back at my previous posts in other threads. I enjoyed the game a lot for several years. My misgivings about this new development are simply as I stated in my original post and you did not address any of them in your reply. I understand the benefits, it's pointless just repeating them back at me like some kind of Blizzard parrot.
Interact with not chat. There's a difference. You cannot interact with other players in a FPS lobby.
Agreed, chat is not the same as interact. I finally see the disagreement, and I'll admit that what I said caused some confusion.
I was never trying to say that chat lobbies make online multiplayer games into MMOs. I am just trying to argue, along the lines of the OP, that what Blizzard has done to WoW is to move it away from being an MMO: the servers are not merged, but now they players are enthusiastic about a giant cross-server lobby for people to wait in to be matched up for an instance, and this is exactly how non-massive multiplayer games work.
I think we have different interpretations of the meaning of 'Massively' in the context of MMOs. I take your point but for me having a larger combination of players with whom to share a 5 man instance does not make a game more 'massive'. Having the capacity to have 2000 players assemble for an event or a PvP battle would be an example of 'Massive'. I don't know what the person who coined the term MMORPG intended but that's how I have always interpreted it.
I see this making the pure "RAID" guilds even stronger as there will be more people that have top gear from the 5 mans to make more teams within one raiding guild or multiple raiding guilds that are able to tackle the raids because of gearing up being so much faster with this option. Blizzard may even start to increase the difficulty of the raids due to the fact you can get 5 man geared up so much more quickly than before. If anything is hurt by this patch it will be the casual guilds that run 5 mans and just chat, but I dont even really see it affecting those that much either because i'm sure you can keep guild chat up while your doin crossrealm instances and communicate with your guild. There will just be plenty of each role that a guild will need that are plenty geared enough to run the raids now that you can spend most of your time actually playing the instances instead of half looking for group and half actually doing the instance. All in All sounds good to me, probally not enough for me to re-sub, only thing I really worry about is how bad people will get when rolling on loot since you will most likely not be in another party with them that often if ever again, people will become fearless in that manner as it will not effect your status in the community of your own server.
Several good things, the system limits excessive use of need, if you are a warrior, you cannot roll on anything with spellpower as need, even plate. Second, an agreement can be arrived at prior to launch, say needing orbs or greeding everything. Last but not least, half of those doing H dungeons are clattered in ilvl232+, they run instances to milk emblem. I have been doing that on 6 alts with 2 friends siting side by side for 6 hours. Also sharing grill. Over the whole night, none of us ever need anything. Items from H dungeons are ilvl200. All our alts wear 232+.
Good news for the young 80s, hop into a team that rinse dungeons, almost all are pushovers. You can pretty much deck out in ilvl200 gear within a day or 2. The weekly dungeon is razorscale. A new 80 from our guild, just dinged after patch 3.3, and the first instance she ran is ... surprise, ulduar 25 PUG. She got 2xilvl226 just being carried through by 24 big guys.
On the issue of impact on guilds, yes I foresee some issues. 2 of the guilds I know well told me that their scheduled raid on wednesday fell through, as most of their members were so excited doing 5man IC runs or dungeons, they are unable to disband and meet when the scheduled ToC25 is due. Lets hope that when the excitement subsides, regular raid schedules will happen again.
Westkarn, almost nobody I know care for 40man raids anymore. The nightmarish days are over. We are thankful to Blizzard for turning their back to you guys. They now have 10s of millions of happy clients. And a handful of bitter social misfits excluded.
God the idea Im being sucked into a WOW topic makes my stomach churn but ... there is no comparison between Patch 3.3 and the NGE. When you log into WoW its the same as usual you pick up your hunter, warrior, whatever and go run quests, raids, dailys whatever. In SWG..you logged on and all of a sudden that Max Skilled Animal herd that took you 2 years to create..She no longer exists.
Infact Everything you knew about the game no longer exists. That dancer, musician, animal herder, robot builder you had? Gone. SWG's NGE wasn't a patch...It was a complete rewriting of the game. If you log onto wow and suddenly you have a skill progression game and have to completely rebuild your character from scratch in order to play ... well then you have every reason to complain.
Honestly this change actually makes me give a couple of thumbs up to Blizz I didn't think would EVER happen, infact I quit playing the game in complete frustration after one of their own Devs said Learn to Raid in an interview. Which said to me Learn to Raid or Get out and pretty much turned me off hardcore to the game. For those of us that prefer to make friends and only group when necessary and like to play on our OWN time instead of on a schedule written by a dictator..this change is great.
Raid progression Guilds that have serious members won't be affected because those people want to be with the best and don't want to wipe. People who want to do the dungeons and maybe raid when the feel like it in order to the gear..now they can enjoy the game at a pace more their liking and not have to sit around for 10+ members of their guild to show up or not. Infact now they don't have to worry about their guild imploding and raiding ending because X person was pissed off they didn't get X peice of gear.
Its about time they made more changes to enchance gameplay for more than 1 style of gameplay (hardcore raiders). I have to admit the idea of cross realm PVP still irks me but I've never liked WoW's version of PVP...unless your a gear nut you pretty much stand no chance ever.
Hopefully WoW keeps this up and keeps adding things to make a slightly healther Game Community out of people instead of just catering to the Guild Community. Its been unhealthy balanced towards Guilds instead of the actual community as a whole. Thats not to say they should forget guilds...infact they gotta improve on both...because Guilds are still a pretty big part of MMOs even if I personally only like to be in casual guilds or clans of my friends and not a ton of random people.
btw MMO's are just giant Multiplayer games. There's no such thing as a Massive Online Guild Game. MOGG hasn't been created yet...well unless you count EvE. Being without a guild in that game is almos ta death sentence.
btw championsFan this does not turn the game into a giant Lobby ... You still have to play the rest of the game which is not affected by the crossplatforming. You can't level up simply doing dungeons, you sure can't get your crafting up, and you certaintly can't travel using them. All the stuff that makes WoW an MMORPG is still there..the world is still there, the crafting system is still there, the auction house is still there, all the outdoor zones are still there, all the mounts are still there..I can kinda go on and on. When they suddenly make the game a chat Hub like say....DDO and remove any questing and open exploration...then we'll talk about FPS Lobbies.
There is really no similarity between the two. SWG was completely changed. WoW hasn't changed at all.
Exactly my point. Blizzard changed WOW so slowly that most players didn't notice it at all. Brilliantly.
Blizz did not change wow, they are enhancing it based on general reaction from the majority. Some are major improvement, some are minor upgrades. They have things tested out thoroughly internally and then test server. None of the changes however controversial, took the population by surprise. Blizz has it own vision of the game and is under no pressure to copy any other game. They can freely select any nice feature discussed/implemented elsewhere and ADAPT it to WoW if it fits Blizz's vision.
SWG's NGE was a top down move thrown into a gaming community least expecting. SoE abandoned their own vision of SWG and go chasing someone else's shadow, and in the process, lost their own identity.
There is really no similarity between the two. SWG was completely changed. WoW hasn't changed at all.
Exactly my point. Blizzard changed WOW so slowly that most players didn't notice it at all. Brilliantly.
Blizz did not change wow, they are enhancing it based on general reaction from the majority. Some are major improvement, some are minor upgrades. They have things tested out thoroughly internally and then test server. None of the changes however controversial, took the population by surprise. Blizz has it own vision of the game and is under no pressure to copy any other game. They can freely select any nice feature discussed/implemented elsewhere and ADAPT it to WoW if it fits Blizz's vision.
SWG's NGE was a top down move thrown into a gaming community least expecting. SoE abandoned their own vision of SWG and go chasing someone else's shadow, and in the process, lost their own identity.
How can you enhance something without changing it? Just curious...
I actually think what WoW did was a good idea. I had 30 minutes this afternoon to play and was in a group in like 3 seconds and in the instance in no time. Makes getting to the game play easier. They will wait until Cataclysm to change the open world game play. Right now for long time players this definitely makes things faster.
The most striking thing now is, DALARAN IS DESERTED.
I am not kidding, I use to hang around dalaran when groups are forming. Now I do not need to go there. I log on, joined the LFG and was loading into random dungeons before I got time to take a zip of coffee. When I zone out of UK, member A left, a random person joins within a second and the next second I am loading. I never see Dalaran till 3 hours later when I disband for repair and bedtime.
AND, dalaran or chats are no longer full of constant spams "XXX LFG YYY". Not anymore.
...and this is what I think changes the game so much, it may be a lot easier to get groups, a whole lot easier...but at what cost?
You have to take things at their respective perspective.
You may not like the way WoW is heading, we respect your view. I have doubts myself.
But for those who use LFG feature for the purpose of forming groups, this new feature makes it easier to get the job done. A superior tool. For these people, they enjoy more efficient services for things they want to get done. Your idea of "cost" does not apply to them.
The cross server battlegrounds removed most of the fun for me from battleground pvp. Before the queue's were a lot longer, but you got to know the enemy and the combat at least had some feeling of worth to it. Once that system was introduced the queue's were extremely short, but the fun was almost completely gone. I made a lot of friends in the past while pugging, most pugs were crap, but some gave me longlasting friends. Now that is gone as well. Ah well, things change, people change and both wow and myself have changed in opposite directions. At least I still got some fond memories of the game, but I am beginning to think that after this even the next expansion won't get me to play again. I was thinking of going back to wow lately, but this new cross server LFG system made me decide otherwise.
QFT about the x-server bgs for me atleast, i mean it really did suck waiting up to 4 hours for an AV bg but like he said you got to know your enemy and some would even become your arch nemisis and you both would hunt each other out every time you did get in there.
i mean actually getting in there and fighting in a bg was deffinitly more fun than standing in IF waiting for hours but it was never as fun as when i did get in there pre-xserver.
i'm not calling it the end of WoW or all doom and gloom i'm sure those left playing the game are in it for the "more efficient" grouping and getting gear they want asap rather than a tighter community grouping for 5 mans for fun.hell people probably wouldn't care if they put HIGH AI "Henchmen" in the game and would probably prefer them because they wouldn't roll against them for loot. and with the new system i do fore see ALOT more ninja looting because honestly your chances in seeing those people again will be slim.
...and this is what I think changes the game so much, it may be a lot easier to get groups, a whole lot easier...but at what cost?
You have to take things at their respective perspective.
You may not like the way WoW is heading, we respect your view. I have doubts myself.
But for those who use LFG feature for the purpose of forming groups, this new feature makes it easier to get the job done. A superior tool. For these people, they enjoy more efficient services for things they want to get done. Your idea of "cost" does not apply to them.
I'm afraid I have to agree with you on this, it may not be my cup of tea, but it will most likely be a win/win situation for a lot of players.
...and this is what I think changes the game so much, it may be a lot easier to get groups, a whole lot easier...but at what cost?
You have to take things at their respective perspective.
You may not like the way WoW is heading, we respect your view. I have doubts myself.
But for those who use LFG feature for the purpose of forming groups, this new feature makes it easier to get the job done. A superior tool. For these people, they enjoy more efficient services for things they want to get done. Your idea of "cost" does not apply to them.
I'm afraid I have to agree with you on this, it may not be my cup of tea, but it will most likely be a win/win situation for a lot of players.
Thanks for the exchange.
The LFG tool will be doubly useful in the next expansion, when we have 2 new races. Levelling up a new goblin will be much more enjoyable with this tool. Blizz guys are really good in long term planning. They can now test and perfect this tool before they give us the new races to reroll.
There is really no similarity between the two. SWG was completely changed. WoW hasn't changed at all.
Exactly my point. Blizzard changed WOW so slowly that most players didn't notice it at all. Brilliantly.
Blizz did not change wow, they are enhancing it based on general reaction from the majority. Some are major improvement, some are minor upgrades. They have things tested out thoroughly internally and then test server. None of the changes however controversial, took the population by surprise. Blizz has it own vision of the game and is under no pressure to copy any other game. They can freely select any nice feature discussed/implemented elsewhere and ADAPT it to WoW if it fits Blizz's vision.
SWG's NGE was a top down move thrown into a gaming community least expecting. SoE abandoned their own vision of SWG and go chasing someone else's shadow, and in the process, lost their own identity.
How can you enhance something without changing it? Just curious...
I think I already elaborated in the rest of my original writing. SoE abandoned their own identity, that is change. Blizz maintained their basic gameplay and find features that would make their gameplay more convenient, easier.
Take an example. If you change your spec from a tank to a healer, you need to change gear. In any other game, you drag gear off 1 by 1. With the wardrobe feature of WoW you select another presaved suite and all pieces swapped. This is an enhancement.
If you change the game from SWG's orginial user crafted indiviudally unique gear, into the normal every sword is the same design, it changes the game. Some of the old features are replaced.
How can you enhance something without changing it? Just curious...
Apples to Oranges honestly...they added to the game .. they didn't take away. NGE took away 2 years of player work...what did 3.3 do? It added another way people can group making it easier for people who aren't interested in Raid Guild scheduling to get their gear..which is just ridiculous in the first place you have to rely on other people and go by their schedules for everything.
There is really no similarity between the two. SWG was completely changed. WoW hasn't changed at all.
Exactly my point. Blizzard changed WOW so slowly that most players didn't notice it at all. Brilliantly.
Blizz did not change wow, they are enhancing it based on general reaction from the majority. Some are major improvement, some are minor upgrades. They have things tested out thoroughly internally and then test server. None of the changes however controversial, took the population by surprise. Blizz has it own vision of the game and is under no pressure to copy any other game. They can freely select any nice feature discussed/implemented elsewhere and ADAPT it to WoW if it fits Blizz's vision.
SWG's NGE was a top down move thrown into a gaming community least expecting. SoE abandoned their own vision of SWG and go chasing someone else's shadow, and in the process, lost their own identity.
How can you enhance something without changing it? Just curious...
I think I already elaborated in the rest of my original writing. SoE abandoned their own identity, that is change. Blizz maintained their basic gameplay and find features that would make their gameplay more convenient, easier.
Take an example. If you change your spec from a tank to a healer, you need to change gear. In any other game, you drag gear off 1 by 1. With the wardrobe feature of WoW you select another presaved suite and all pieces swapped. This is an enhancement.
If you change the game from SWG's orginial user crafted indiviudally unique gear, into the normal every sword is the same design, it changes the game. Some of the old features are replaced.
I hope I got the message across.
It may not be as big a change as what happened to SWG, but it is still a big change. The main difference between this and the SWG debacle is that this change is well received by the masses. The wow community is not well known for being great, however I always considered this to be a flawed conclusion. Sure it has more asshats than other games simply because it has more players, but more players also means more likeminded individuals to meet. Harder to find them, but more of them around.
The reason I bring this community thing up is because this new feature changed the chance to meet those likeminded individuals. There is less reason to communicate with those you team up with, the content is so easy these days in 5mans that tactics are a thing of the past and since you probably won't see them again...why try to become friends?
You may consider it an enhancement, I consider it a change for the worse.
There is really no similarity between the two. SWG was completely changed. WoW hasn't changed at all.
Exactly my point. Blizzard changed WOW so slowly that most players didn't notice it at all. Brilliantly.
Blizz did not change wow, they are enhancing it based on general reaction from the majority. Some are major improvement, some are minor upgrades. They have things tested out thoroughly internally and then test server. None of the changes however controversial, took the population by surprise. Blizz has it own vision of the game and is under no pressure to copy any other game. They can freely select any nice feature discussed/implemented elsewhere and ADAPT it to WoW if it fits Blizz's vision.
SWG's NGE was a top down move thrown into a gaming community least expecting. SoE abandoned their own vision of SWG and go chasing someone else's shadow, and in the process, lost their own identity.
How can you enhance something without changing it? Just curious...
I think I already elaborated in the rest of my original writing. SoE abandoned their own identity, that is change. Blizz maintained their basic gameplay and find features that would make their gameplay more convenient, easier.
Take an example. If you change your spec from a tank to a healer, you need to change gear. In any other game, you drag gear off 1 by 1. With the wardrobe feature of WoW you select another presaved suite and all pieces swapped. This is an enhancement.
If you change the game from SWG's orginial user crafted indiviudally unique gear, into the normal every sword is the same design, it changes the game. Some of the old features are replaced.
I hope I got the message across.
It may not be as big a change as what happened to SWG, but it is still a big change. The main difference between this and the SWG debacle is that this change is well received by the masses. The wow community is not well known for being great, however I always considered this to be a flawed conclusion. Sure it has more asshats than other games simply because it has more players, but more players also means more likeminded individuals to meet. Harder to find them, but more of them around.
The reason I bring this community thing up is because this new feature changed the chance to meet those likeminded individuals. There is less reason to communicate with those you team up with, the content is so easy these days in 5mans that tactics are a thing of the past and since you probably won't see them again...why try to become friends?
You may consider it an enhancement, I consider it a change for the worse.
Yes I have this reservation. Serious.
But come to think of it, so long as that person is not in our server, the current technology does not make it easy to maintain a meaningful continuous association. The LFG does not help us here, it does not make things worse. It does reduces our need to depend on people in our server when WE DO DUNGEONs, which most likely than not, we just do it casually or pug.
The only sad thing through this, when we run into someone we really like, from another server, it would be a very sad goodbye at the end, knowing we might never get in touch again.
OP, the whole idea of this is to quickly gear and level characters helping them better achieve raid ready status, OR to help casuals get some degree of equipment.
There will be no pug raids through GLFG, so raid guilds will still have an edge up. However, not having to gear up a fresh player in time for a new run of raids will save bigger guilds lots of time and save struggling smaller guilds by increasing their perspective pool or 10/25 raid ready players.
"There is a certain undeniable power in the void; within lies an unspoken promise of greatness, the shadowy truth that man is ruled by fear not of what is seen, but of what he perceives is seen beyond."
His gf ends up with completey random people in an instance. Well before the patch i used to go to instances with completely random people on the same server, no difference for me.
He says that she didn't hook up with her friends on the same server. Well they must be fair weather friends, as there is nothing stopping her from hooking up with them and then joining the X-realm LFG is there?
And finally stop blamming others for your own failings, simply because Bliz supplied a tool doesnt mean that you should use it. Same as blaming a gun seller for muder what what.
Comments
-Sigh....now you dont even need to get summon to the instance.....yeah wow is total bs now.
If that is your idea of massive than I suppose you consider just about every popular game with an online option to be a mmo?
No, I am pointing out how absurd it would be to consider every multiplayer online game with a lobby to match players for instances to be an MMO. Obviously you consider that absurd as well and so we agree.
But the OP is pointing out that this patch 3.3 is moving WoW closer to meeting that description, and hence moving it away from being an MMO and towards being just another online multiplayer game. I agree with the OP.
Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.
So how many players can you interact with, I didn't say chat with I said interact with, in those games at once?
And yeah if you watch the technology that style of game is bordering on becoming massive. Not quite there yet and never in the quality of a four to eight player game but they're getting there.
The thing I don't like is that a game like wow slowly moves towards that type of gameplay. I'm sure a lot of players will love it, I'm just not one of them and am afraid that too many other mmo devellopers will copy this trend.
Funny that you wrote this while I wrote kinda the same time in the meantime. We seem to think more alike than I expected.
So how many players can you interact with, I didn't say chat with I said interact with, in those games at once?
You said:
Massive isn't in how many players you can interact with this instant it's in how many player are available to interact with.
Um, isn't "this instant" mean the same as "at once" ? So the number of players I can interact with at once is not what make it massive, according to you. It's how many players are "available to interact", and since online FPS have massive lobbies full of players ready to interact with you (by joining an instance with you), they seem to be massive by your definition.
Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.
First: the LFG tool is a complementary tool: you can form a group with your closest friends and fill in the 1 or 2 spots with it in NO time.
Secondly: it only works for the dungeons (leveling and end game), so Raids need to be done on server.
Third; always look at the complete package with Blizzard: they add a guild leveling system in Cata.
Fourth: Azeroth-Northrend-Outland are H U G E these days and with 50% of the people at the end game, it is a terrific idea to be able to play ALL dungeons throughout the game with 150.000 people on line.
So Blizzard found a solution to old content being played in groups. THE END of telling "you only level by solo play" in WOW.
You can level with ANY combo now and fill in the spots for doing the dungeon quests on the spot (like I said even at 01.00 AM. Just another option). Those adventures with your friends won't suffer. On the contrary.
The twists and turns WOW haters are taking around this is very satisfying: it shows Blizzard heads again in another succesful direction.
And of course new MMORPG's should take a good look at it.
2010 means 24/7 on line group play be it in PvP or in PVE at YOUR time and place, not ALWAYS at THEIR time and place.
First: When I stopped playing WoW it was already very difficult to find a group using the original LFG options. It will now be impossible since the majority will simply use the more efficient cross-server matching. The tools are not really complementary since the new system reduces the number of players available to the old LFG system thus reducing its already poor effectiveness.
Secondly: This has no bearing on my original post but ok.
Third: I have no idea what the guild levelling system is but it's irrelevant anyway since Cataclysm will not be released for a while yet. Perhaps we can discuss it then.
Fourth: I agree the cross-server matching is a fantastic way of enabling players to enjoy the older, lower-level instances.
For what it's worth i'm not a WoW hater as you will probably see if you look back at my previous posts in other threads. I enjoyed the game a lot for several years. My misgivings about this new development are simply as I stated in my original post and you did not address any of them in your reply. I understand the benefits, it's pointless just repeating them back at me like some kind of Blizzard parrot.
Interact with not chat. There's a difference. You cannot interact with other players in a FPS lobby.
Agreed, chat is not the same as interact. I finally see the disagreement, and I'll admit that what I said caused some confusion.
I was never trying to say that chat lobbies make online multiplayer games into MMOs. I am just trying to argue, along the lines of the OP, that what Blizzard has done to WoW is to move it away from being an MMO: the servers are not merged, but now they players are enthusiastic about a giant cross-server lobby for people to wait in to be matched up for an instance, and this is exactly how non-massive multiplayer games work.
Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.
To Zymurgeist:
I think we have different interpretations of the meaning of 'Massively' in the context of MMOs. I take your point but for me having a larger combination of players with whom to share a 5 man instance does not make a game more 'massive'. Having the capacity to have 2000 players assemble for an event or a PvP battle would be an example of 'Massive'. I don't know what the person who coined the term MMORPG intended but that's how I have always interpreted it.
Several good things, the system limits excessive use of need, if you are a warrior, you cannot roll on anything with spellpower as need, even plate. Second, an agreement can be arrived at prior to launch, say needing orbs or greeding everything. Last but not least, half of those doing H dungeons are clattered in ilvl232+, they run instances to milk emblem. I have been doing that on 6 alts with 2 friends siting side by side for 6 hours. Also sharing grill. Over the whole night, none of us ever need anything. Items from H dungeons are ilvl200. All our alts wear 232+.
Good news for the young 80s, hop into a team that rinse dungeons, almost all are pushovers. You can pretty much deck out in ilvl200 gear within a day or 2. The weekly dungeon is razorscale. A new 80 from our guild, just dinged after patch 3.3, and the first instance she ran is ... surprise, ulduar 25 PUG. She got 2xilvl226 just being carried through by 24 big guys.
On the issue of impact on guilds, yes I foresee some issues. 2 of the guilds I know well told me that their scheduled raid on wednesday fell through, as most of their members were so excited doing 5man IC runs or dungeons, they are unable to disband and meet when the scheduled ToC25 is due. Lets hope that when the excitement subsides, regular raid schedules will happen again.
Westkarn, almost nobody I know care for 40man raids anymore. The nightmarish days are over. We are thankful to Blizzard for turning their back to you guys. They now have 10s of millions of happy clients. And a handful of bitter social misfits excluded.
God the idea Im being sucked into a WOW topic makes my stomach churn but ... there is no comparison between Patch 3.3 and the NGE. When you log into WoW its the same as usual you pick up your hunter, warrior, whatever and go run quests, raids, dailys whatever. In SWG..you logged on and all of a sudden that Max Skilled Animal herd that took you 2 years to create..She no longer exists.
Infact Everything you knew about the game no longer exists. That dancer, musician, animal herder, robot builder you had? Gone. SWG's NGE wasn't a patch...It was a complete rewriting of the game. If you log onto wow and suddenly you have a skill progression game and have to completely rebuild your character from scratch in order to play ... well then you have every reason to complain.
Honestly this change actually makes me give a couple of thumbs up to Blizz I didn't think would EVER happen, infact I quit playing the game in complete frustration after one of their own Devs said Learn to Raid in an interview. Which said to me Learn to Raid or Get out and pretty much turned me off hardcore to the game. For those of us that prefer to make friends and only group when necessary and like to play on our OWN time instead of on a schedule written by a dictator..this change is great.
Raid progression Guilds that have serious members won't be affected because those people want to be with the best and don't want to wipe. People who want to do the dungeons and maybe raid when the feel like it in order to the gear..now they can enjoy the game at a pace more their liking and not have to sit around for 10+ members of their guild to show up or not. Infact now they don't have to worry about their guild imploding and raiding ending because X person was pissed off they didn't get X peice of gear.
Its about time they made more changes to enchance gameplay for more than 1 style of gameplay (hardcore raiders). I have to admit the idea of cross realm PVP still irks me but I've never liked WoW's version of PVP...unless your a gear nut you pretty much stand no chance ever.
Hopefully WoW keeps this up and keeps adding things to make a slightly healther Game Community out of people instead of just catering to the Guild Community. Its been unhealthy balanced towards Guilds instead of the actual community as a whole. Thats not to say they should forget guilds...infact they gotta improve on both...because Guilds are still a pretty big part of MMOs even if I personally only like to be in casual guilds or clans of my friends and not a ton of random people.
btw MMO's are just giant Multiplayer games. There's no such thing as a Massive Online Guild Game. MOGG hasn't been created yet...well unless you count EvE. Being without a guild in that game is almos ta death sentence.
btw championsFan this does not turn the game into a giant Lobby ... You still have to play the rest of the game which is not affected by the crossplatforming. You can't level up simply doing dungeons, you sure can't get your crafting up, and you certaintly can't travel using them. All the stuff that makes WoW an MMORPG is still there..the world is still there, the crafting system is still there, the auction house is still there, all the outdoor zones are still there, all the mounts are still there..I can kinda go on and on. When they suddenly make the game a chat Hub like say....DDO and remove any questing and open exploration...then we'll talk about FPS Lobbies.
There is really no similarity between the two. SWG was completely changed. WoW hasn't changed at all.
Exactly my point. Blizzard changed WOW so slowly that most players didn't notice it at all. Brilliantly.
Blizz did not change wow, they are enhancing it based on general reaction from the majority. Some are major improvement, some are minor upgrades. They have things tested out thoroughly internally and then test server. None of the changes however controversial, took the population by surprise. Blizz has it own vision of the game and is under no pressure to copy any other game. They can freely select any nice feature discussed/implemented elsewhere and ADAPT it to WoW if it fits Blizz's vision.
SWG's NGE was a top down move thrown into a gaming community least expecting. SoE abandoned their own vision of SWG and go chasing someone else's shadow, and in the process, lost their own identity.
There is really no similarity between the two. SWG was completely changed. WoW hasn't changed at all.
Exactly my point. Blizzard changed WOW so slowly that most players didn't notice it at all. Brilliantly.
Blizz did not change wow, they are enhancing it based on general reaction from the majority. Some are major improvement, some are minor upgrades. They have things tested out thoroughly internally and then test server. None of the changes however controversial, took the population by surprise. Blizz has it own vision of the game and is under no pressure to copy any other game. They can freely select any nice feature discussed/implemented elsewhere and ADAPT it to WoW if it fits Blizz's vision.
SWG's NGE was a top down move thrown into a gaming community least expecting. SoE abandoned their own vision of SWG and go chasing someone else's shadow, and in the process, lost their own identity.
How can you enhance something without changing it? Just curious...
The most striking thing now is, DALARAN IS DESERTED.
I am not kidding, I use to hang around dalaran when groups are forming. Now I do not need to go there. I log on, joined the LFG and was loading into random dungeons before I got time to take a zip of coffee. When I zone out of UK, member A left, a random person joins within a second and the next second I am loading. I never see Dalaran till 3 hours later when I disband for repair and bedtime.
AND, dalaran or chats are no longer full of constant spams "XXX LFG YYY". Not anymore.
...and this is what I think changes the game so much, it may be a lot easier to get groups, a whole lot easier...but at what cost?
You have to take things at their respective perspective.
You may not like the way WoW is heading, we respect your view. I have doubts myself.
But for those who use LFG feature for the purpose of forming groups, this new feature makes it easier to get the job done. A superior tool. For these people, they enjoy more efficient services for things they want to get done. Your idea of "cost" does not apply to them.
QFT about the x-server bgs for me atleast, i mean it really did suck waiting up to 4 hours for an AV bg but like he said you got to know your enemy and some would even become your arch nemisis and you both would hunt each other out every time you did get in there.
i mean actually getting in there and fighting in a bg was deffinitly more fun than standing in IF waiting for hours but it was never as fun as when i did get in there pre-xserver.
i'm not calling it the end of WoW or all doom and gloom i'm sure those left playing the game are in it for the "more efficient" grouping and getting gear they want asap rather than a tighter community grouping for 5 mans for fun.hell people probably wouldn't care if they put HIGH AI "Henchmen" in the game and would probably prefer them because they wouldn't roll against them for loot. and with the new system i do fore see ALOT more ninja looting because honestly your chances in seeing those people again will be slim.
i honestly think this is a good idea
but at the same time, it's ruining the community
people would just login, then LFG and go to the instance with players on a different server, then rinse and repeat, now
at 1st, it might be good because you dont need to spend alot of time LFGing
but after sometimes it will have it's side effect
So What Now?
...and this is what I think changes the game so much, it may be a lot easier to get groups, a whole lot easier...but at what cost?
You have to take things at their respective perspective.
You may not like the way WoW is heading, we respect your view. I have doubts myself.
But for those who use LFG feature for the purpose of forming groups, this new feature makes it easier to get the job done. A superior tool. For these people, they enjoy more efficient services for things they want to get done. Your idea of "cost" does not apply to them.
I'm afraid I have to agree with you on this, it may not be my cup of tea, but it will most likely be a win/win situation for a lot of players.
...and this is what I think changes the game so much, it may be a lot easier to get groups, a whole lot easier...but at what cost?
You have to take things at their respective perspective.
You may not like the way WoW is heading, we respect your view. I have doubts myself.
But for those who use LFG feature for the purpose of forming groups, this new feature makes it easier to get the job done. A superior tool. For these people, they enjoy more efficient services for things they want to get done. Your idea of "cost" does not apply to them.
I'm afraid I have to agree with you on this, it may not be my cup of tea, but it will most likely be a win/win situation for a lot of players.
Thanks for the exchange.
The LFG tool will be doubly useful in the next expansion, when we have 2 new races. Levelling up a new goblin will be much more enjoyable with this tool. Blizz guys are really good in long term planning. They can now test and perfect this tool before they give us the new races to reroll.
There is really no similarity between the two. SWG was completely changed. WoW hasn't changed at all.
Exactly my point. Blizzard changed WOW so slowly that most players didn't notice it at all. Brilliantly.
Blizz did not change wow, they are enhancing it based on general reaction from the majority. Some are major improvement, some are minor upgrades. They have things tested out thoroughly internally and then test server. None of the changes however controversial, took the population by surprise. Blizz has it own vision of the game and is under no pressure to copy any other game. They can freely select any nice feature discussed/implemented elsewhere and ADAPT it to WoW if it fits Blizz's vision.
SWG's NGE was a top down move thrown into a gaming community least expecting. SoE abandoned their own vision of SWG and go chasing someone else's shadow, and in the process, lost their own identity.
How can you enhance something without changing it? Just curious...
I think I already elaborated in the rest of my original writing. SoE abandoned their own identity, that is change. Blizz maintained their basic gameplay and find features that would make their gameplay more convenient, easier.
Take an example. If you change your spec from a tank to a healer, you need to change gear. In any other game, you drag gear off 1 by 1. With the wardrobe feature of WoW you select another presaved suite and all pieces swapped. This is an enhancement.
If you change the game from SWG's orginial user crafted indiviudally unique gear, into the normal every sword is the same design, it changes the game. Some of the old features are replaced.
I hope I got the message across.
Apples to Oranges honestly...they added to the game .. they didn't take away. NGE took away 2 years of player work...what did 3.3 do? It added another way people can group making it easier for people who aren't interested in Raid Guild scheduling to get their gear..which is just ridiculous in the first place you have to rely on other people and go by their schedules for everything.
There is really no similarity between the two. SWG was completely changed. WoW hasn't changed at all.
Exactly my point. Blizzard changed WOW so slowly that most players didn't notice it at all. Brilliantly.
Blizz did not change wow, they are enhancing it based on general reaction from the majority. Some are major improvement, some are minor upgrades. They have things tested out thoroughly internally and then test server. None of the changes however controversial, took the population by surprise. Blizz has it own vision of the game and is under no pressure to copy any other game. They can freely select any nice feature discussed/implemented elsewhere and ADAPT it to WoW if it fits Blizz's vision.
SWG's NGE was a top down move thrown into a gaming community least expecting. SoE abandoned their own vision of SWG and go chasing someone else's shadow, and in the process, lost their own identity.
How can you enhance something without changing it? Just curious...
I think I already elaborated in the rest of my original writing. SoE abandoned their own identity, that is change. Blizz maintained their basic gameplay and find features that would make their gameplay more convenient, easier.
Take an example. If you change your spec from a tank to a healer, you need to change gear. In any other game, you drag gear off 1 by 1. With the wardrobe feature of WoW you select another presaved suite and all pieces swapped. This is an enhancement.
If you change the game from SWG's orginial user crafted indiviudally unique gear, into the normal every sword is the same design, it changes the game. Some of the old features are replaced.
I hope I got the message across.
It may not be as big a change as what happened to SWG, but it is still a big change. The main difference between this and the SWG debacle is that this change is well received by the masses. The wow community is not well known for being great, however I always considered this to be a flawed conclusion. Sure it has more asshats than other games simply because it has more players, but more players also means more likeminded individuals to meet. Harder to find them, but more of them around.
The reason I bring this community thing up is because this new feature changed the chance to meet those likeminded individuals. There is less reason to communicate with those you team up with, the content is so easy these days in 5mans that tactics are a thing of the past and since you probably won't see them again...why try to become friends?
You may consider it an enhancement, I consider it a change for the worse.
There is really no similarity between the two. SWG was completely changed. WoW hasn't changed at all.
Exactly my point. Blizzard changed WOW so slowly that most players didn't notice it at all. Brilliantly.
Blizz did not change wow, they are enhancing it based on general reaction from the majority. Some are major improvement, some are minor upgrades. They have things tested out thoroughly internally and then test server. None of the changes however controversial, took the population by surprise. Blizz has it own vision of the game and is under no pressure to copy any other game. They can freely select any nice feature discussed/implemented elsewhere and ADAPT it to WoW if it fits Blizz's vision.
SWG's NGE was a top down move thrown into a gaming community least expecting. SoE abandoned their own vision of SWG and go chasing someone else's shadow, and in the process, lost their own identity.
How can you enhance something without changing it? Just curious...
I think I already elaborated in the rest of my original writing. SoE abandoned their own identity, that is change. Blizz maintained their basic gameplay and find features that would make their gameplay more convenient, easier.
Take an example. If you change your spec from a tank to a healer, you need to change gear. In any other game, you drag gear off 1 by 1. With the wardrobe feature of WoW you select another presaved suite and all pieces swapped. This is an enhancement.
If you change the game from SWG's orginial user crafted indiviudally unique gear, into the normal every sword is the same design, it changes the game. Some of the old features are replaced.
I hope I got the message across.
It may not be as big a change as what happened to SWG, but it is still a big change. The main difference between this and the SWG debacle is that this change is well received by the masses. The wow community is not well known for being great, however I always considered this to be a flawed conclusion. Sure it has more asshats than other games simply because it has more players, but more players also means more likeminded individuals to meet. Harder to find them, but more of them around.
The reason I bring this community thing up is because this new feature changed the chance to meet those likeminded individuals. There is less reason to communicate with those you team up with, the content is so easy these days in 5mans that tactics are a thing of the past and since you probably won't see them again...why try to become friends?
You may consider it an enhancement, I consider it a change for the worse.
Yes I have this reservation. Serious.
But come to think of it, so long as that person is not in our server, the current technology does not make it easy to maintain a meaningful continuous association. The LFG does not help us here, it does not make things worse. It does reduces our need to depend on people in our server when WE DO DUNGEONs, which most likely than not, we just do it casually or pug.
The only sad thing through this, when we run into someone we really like, from another server, it would be a very sad goodbye at the end, knowing we might never get in touch again.
I wonder if they are ever going to go for a cross-realms Auction House, too...
OP, the whole idea of this is to quickly gear and level characters helping them better achieve raid ready status, OR to help casuals get some degree of equipment.
There will be no pug raids through GLFG, so raid guilds will still have an edge up. However, not having to gear up a fresh player in time for a new run of raids will save bigger guilds lots of time and save struggling smaller guilds by increasing their perspective pool or 10/25 raid ready players.
"There is a certain undeniable power in the void; within lies an unspoken promise of greatness, the shadowy truth that man is ruled by fear not of what is seen, but of what he perceives is seen beyond."
Two points i take from the OP' s post.
His gf ends up with completey random people in an instance. Well before the patch i used to go to instances with completely random people on the same server, no difference for me.
He says that she didn't hook up with her friends on the same server. Well they must be fair weather friends, as there is nothing stopping her from hooking up with them and then joining the X-realm LFG is there?
And finally stop blamming others for your own failings, simply because Bliz supplied a tool doesnt mean that you should use it. Same as blaming a gun seller for muder what what.