I'm indifferent to the Engineer class. As for the people complaining about guns in GW2 I don't think I have ever seen a steampunk setting that didn't have swords and guns at the same time.
People don't use martial weapons in the real world because they're not on equal footing against people with guns. In Tyria, they are.
Why?
As I said, I don't expect the game to make sense according to RL laws and physics. But I do expect it to make sense according to it's own laws and physics.
But there's nothing at all stating why guns have some sort of hidden disadvantage. As I mentioned, Warhammer has guns but they're very prone to misfire. That's a disadvantage explaining why in Warhammer guns aren't superior to martial weapons. And why people are still walking around in full plate even though bullets could easily rip right through it.
They could have made a great interesting and logical class that made sense in the world they're constructing if they spend some time thinking about things like this. Instead they just chose to go with "What looks cool?" and left it at that.
As I said, I'm probably a minority who cares about this type of stuff. But it is the reason why I don't like the Engineer.
Once you go down the road of explaining things, you gotta go all the way, so why start?
In the real world bullet velocity is upwards of 800 ft/s. Yet in Tyria, you can probably dodge bullets. An arrow in the real world supposedly can go 450 ft/s, yet in Tyria you can definitely dodge that. Maybe there's excessive air resistance, maybe the laws of physics regarding kinetic energy are rewritten. To me it doesn't matter.
Guns have some hidden disadvantage, whatever it is that makes the nonlethal. Swords also have some kind of disadvantage that makes them nonlethal. Nobody is clamoring for an explanation as to why a sword just takes of 10% of hps and doesn't cripple someone for life. However little sense it makes in the real world doesn't matter, because in this world, that's the way it is.
I mean, look at ritualists. The more you think about it, the less sense it makes to be able to summon a spirit content to sit in one place and start nuking people, or why you can pay extra to nuke people and also blind them. But it's ok, it's magic, it doesn't have to make sense. But take away it being a spirit and replace it with a turret and all of a sudden we need to explain how it can have a targeting system that would have to be better than exists in the real world.
It's a game, nothing about it makes sense. The only difference is whether we want to just admit it makes no sense or whether we want to sweep it all under the rug we call Magic.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Well, it makes sense to me in a physics kind of manner.
In the real world, bullets travel roughly faster than the human eye can register them. In GW2, bullet speed is a lot lower - but still hard enough to do a sizeable amount of damage. In my mind, guns are the last thing someone complaining about technology should fixate on considering you can pilot mechs, an invention in science fiction that made guns obsolete.
Mainly focussing on guns since, imho, the rest is just too ridicilious to even argue about.
But if guns are nothing more then tiny bows with tiny arrows then what's the use of making them guns? Why not make them handcrossbows?
Personally I feel much the same way about the Engineer as I do about Twilight vampires. Why give Engineers all the high-tech gadgets if you're not going to take them seriously anyway? Why call Twilight glittery guys vampires if you're not going to take them seriously anyway?
Again, all this is coming from a lore extremist standpoint. Don't take it too seriously I'm just trying to explain what I dislike about making games that are 50% medievil and 50% steampunk with seemingly absolutely nothing in between.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Once you go down the road of explaining things, you gotta go all the way, so why start?
In the real world bullet velocity is upwards of 800 ft/s. Yet in Tyria, you can probably dodge bullets. An arrow in the real world supposedly can go 450 ft/s, yet in Tyria you can definitely dodge that. Maybe there's excessive air resistance, maybe the laws of physics regarding kinetic energy are rewritten. To me it doesn't matter.
Guns have some hidden disadvantage, whatever it is that makes the nonlethal. Swords also have some kind of disadvantage that makes them nonlethal. Nobody is clamoring for an explanation as to why a sword just takes of 10% of hps and doesn't cripple someone for life. However little sense it makes in the real world doesn't matter, because in this world, that's the way it is.
I mean, look at ritualists. The more you think about it, the less sense it makes to be able to summon a spirit content to sit in one place and start nuking people, or why you can pay extra to nuke people and also blind them. But it's ok, it's magic, it doesn't have to make sense. But take away it being a spirit and replace it with a turret and all of a sudden we need to explain how it can have a targeting system that would have to be better than exists in the real world.
It's a game, nothing about it makes sense. The only difference is whether we want to just admit it makes no sense or whether we want to sweep it all under the rug we call Magic.
You're explaining it by RL physics. I asked for a Tyria physics explanation.
Ritualists make 100% sense in tyria physics because the whole world is built around them. Spirits are an integral part of the GW lore.
If they had made the engineer some sort of Ritualist/Scientist combo who made mechanicl devices that were powered by the spirits of the dead I wouldn't have complained. That makes sense in the GW lore.
This does not.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
It would have been better if the Engineer himself wielded the turret, It just did not look quite right and maybe a little faster ?. The Mines hmmm.. Just can't decide.
To me the engineer class looked like it did not fit all that well with the other classes in the game, all he needs is a utility belt and a black winged suit and we have Batman :S
No mechanical pets armed to the teeth with guns and explosives ? this would have made me like the class a whole lot more, and maybe an armored exo-skeleton that could be worn ?
Once you go down the road of explaining things, you gotta go all the way, so why start?
In the real world bullet velocity is upwards of 800 ft/s. Yet in Tyria, you can probably dodge bullets. An arrow in the real world supposedly can go 450 ft/s, yet in Tyria you can definitely dodge that. Maybe there's excessive air resistance, maybe the laws of physics regarding kinetic energy are rewritten. To me it doesn't matter.
Guns have some hidden disadvantage, whatever it is that makes the nonlethal. Swords also have some kind of disadvantage that makes them nonlethal. Nobody is clamoring for an explanation as to why a sword just takes of 10% of hps and doesn't cripple someone for life. However little sense it makes in the real world doesn't matter, because in this world, that's the way it is.
I mean, look at ritualists. The more you think about it, the less sense it makes to be able to summon a spirit content to sit in one place and start nuking people, or why you can pay extra to nuke people and also blind them. But it's ok, it's magic, it doesn't have to make sense. But take away it being a spirit and replace it with a turret and all of a sudden we need to explain how it can have a targeting system that would have to be better than exists in the real world.
It's a game, nothing about it makes sense. The only difference is whether we want to just admit it makes no sense or whether we want to sweep it all under the rug we call Magic.
You're explaining it by RL physics. I asked for a Tyria physics explanation.
Ritualists make 100% sense in tyria physics because the whole world is built around them. Spirits are an integral part of the GW lore.
If they had made the engineer some sort of Ritualist/Scientist combo who made mechanicl devices that were powered by the spirits of the dead I wouldn't have complained. That makes sense in the GW lore.
This does not.
There could be tons of explenations to why exactly they have invented guns - I mean, a person who has a scientific mind, where as he is quite accurate, but not very skilled with a bow (as you have to aim higher for the arrow to travel further), where as with guns, you usually just aim straight forward, and that in theory only requires you to be accurate towards you now might be aiming for.
And since gunpowder already excisted in GW1 I can't see why they should't try to make it more into a weapon instead of keeping to powder kegs.
talking about disadvantages then:
Bows are silent, guns are not.
Guns are heavier than bows which also requires more strength to carry overall.
And automated turrets could easily be powered by magic - I can't see why it should't be possible anyway, where as apparently engineers are capable of arbsorbing magic and then use it for their own gain, as shown in one of the videos.
As to the lore aspect, then even though some of you state that asuran technology doesnt count, i'd very much agree - What I mean is, as with the example above with the engineers being capable of arbsorbing magic, then thats either a specific material which can arbsorb magic, or they had someone who knows to do magic, or them selfs for that matter to cast a spell on the shield to arbsorb it and then be able to use it for their own gain. Asuran techonology revolves around magic, that means they already either knew about this material, or has been imbueing their technological wonders with magic to ensure that the magic stays inside of the object (such as golems).
I don't know that much about GW lore except for what I have read on GW websites and experienced by playing the game, where as in the end it is the writers who decides how the lore expands, and I don't believe there has ever been mentioning about mechanical technological wonders being completely impossible.
I voted "Like it" as since I will most likely not be playing it as its not my type of class as such, but I like diversity, and they are certainly providing that - and im quite excited about the class skill combos ;p
Well, it makes sense to me in a physics kind of manner.
In the real world, bullets travel roughly faster than the human eye can register them. In GW2, bullet speed is a lot lower - but still hard enough to do a sizeable amount of damage. In my mind, guns are the last thing someone complaining about technology should fixate on considering you can pilot mechs, an invention in science fiction that made guns obsolete.
Mainly focussing on guns since, imho, the rest is just too ridicilious to even argue about.
But if guns are nothing more then tiny bows with tiny arrows then what's the use of making them guns? Why not make them handcrossbows?
Personally I feel much the same way about the Engineer as I do about Twilight vampires. Why give Engineers all the high-tech gadgets if you're not going to take them seriously anyway? Why call Twilight glittery guys vampires if you're not going to take them seriously anyway?
Again, all this is coming from a lore extremist standpoint. Don't take it too seriously I'm just trying to explain what I dislike about making games that are 50% medievil and 50% steampunk with seemingly absolutely nothing in between.
Mostly because metal slugs deal more damage than tiny arrows? Also, guns are relevant and serious because they are point and kill - whereas arrows take a significantly larger amount of skill.
I too am a lorehound, which is why certain things annoy me - but certainly not this. This is easy, what with the technological advances of Charr and Asura since the first Guild Wars (two races already capable of creating great constructs) it is natural that a hand-held device able to deal damage by pointing at a target would be created and used. Warfare advances, assuming Tyria to be = to Earth is a giant misstep in this arguement I think. We just have to look at what Humans had 250 years ago and compare to today. You will see that Earth has gone through much more radical changes in said time than Guild Wars.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
We just have to look at what Humans had 250 years ago and compare to today. You will see that Earth has gone through much more radical changes in said time than Guild Wars.
You're explaining it by RL physics. I asked for a Tyria physics explanation.
Ritualists make 100% sense in tyria physics because the whole world is built around them. Spirits are an integral part of the GW lore.
If they had made the engineer some sort of Ritualist/Scientist combo who made mechanicl devices that were powered by the spirits of the dead I wouldn't have complained. That makes sense in the GW lore.
This does not.
What is Tyria physics? And how could we describe it except in relation to RL physics? I suggested maybe projectiles have significantly less kinetic energy in this world that makes then nonlethal. You must pardon me if I don't come up with an internally consistent set of equations to describe an alternate physics reality on the fly for the purpose of debating a video game with someone on the internet.
Enemies can dodge arrows in GW1, so if anything, the physics basis for it was there already. As much as it needs to be explained anyway. It is a game where a ranger can shoot three arrows at the same time at someone, and where paragons have an infinite supply of spears to carry with them.
Ritualists didn't exist in GW Prophecies. It wasn't until Factions that they introduced a guy who summons spirit turrets. Ritualists would make zero sense according to Prophecies lore. They modified the lore in order to be able to include the class, probably for no other reason than because it was cool. If they want to say that engineers make sense because 250 years have passed, I'm fine with that. It makes about as much sense as saying riualist style communing is in the game because it's on another continent.
Maybe we have fundamentally different viewpoints. You want GW2 lore to make sense given the existing GW1 lore. I'm saying none of it makes sense so consistency between then and now isn't necessary.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
It does look like it would be fun to play, but I have to agree with many of the other posters in that I think ANet took the technology angle a bit too far. Firearms, yes. I can go with that. But auto-tracking turrets I think starts to leave steampunk behind and enters the realm of cyberpunk. If it could somehow be justified, like having a bound spirit controlling the targetting, I could understand it. But this looks to be purely mechanical in nature and I can't see it being done with the level of technology I think they should have.
Maybe the turrets are a joint invention with the help of the asura and actually do use magic internally. An asura guidance system combined with charr firearms. I'm stretching, but at least it's plausible under the restrictions of the lore. I just want a bit more solid a rationale than "technology has progressed".
You're totally right in saying there could easily be tons of explanations. But there aren't any.
I'm not complaining about the existance of all the high-tech stuff. I'm complaining about the lack of a decent official explanation that hints at the why and how of all the high-tech stuff.
I'd have no problems about a game combining nuclear missile launchers with wooden clubs as long as there was a decent explanation for it.
I don't like the engineer because there isn't any real lore behind it. They could make that lore and maybe I'd start liking the class. But right now there just isn't any lore. If the developers don't take their game and classes serious enough to make up a halfway reasonable explanation for why the world is as it is then why should I?
Originally posted by cali59
What is Tyria physics? And how could we describe it except in relation to RL physics? I suggested maybe projectiles have significantly less kinetic energy in this world that makes then nonlethal. You must pardon me if I don't come up with an internally consistent set of equations to describe an alternate physics reality on the fly for the purpose of debating a video game with someone on the internet.
Enemies can dodge arrows in GW1, so if anything, the physics basis for it was there already. As much as it needs to be explained anyway. It is a game where a ranger can shoot three arrows at the same time at someone, and where paragons have an infinite supply of spears to carry with them.
Ritualists didn't exist in GW Prophecies. It wasn't until Factions that they introduced a guy who summons spirit turrets. Ritualists would make zero sense according to Prophecies lore. They modified the lore in order to be able to include the class, probably for no other reason than because it was cool. If they want to say that engineers make sense because 250 years have passed, I'm fine with that. It makes about as much sense as saying riualist style communing is in the game because it's on another continent.
Maybe we have fundamentally different viewpoints. You want GW2 lore to make sense given the existing GW1 lore. I'm saying none of it makes sense so consistency between then and now isn't necessary.
The Prophecies Ranger would like to have a word with you about his spirits.
With Tyria physics I mean that everything that's in the game is consistent with everything else in the game. Ritualists are consistent because Prophecies rangers could already summon spirits, just not human spirits. I find the Engineer inconsistent because he has tons of high-tech gadgets and weapons while half the GW2 world is still completely medievil without any decent explanation behind it.
Infintie spears aren't a problem because all classes had infinite ammo, the whole world had infinite ammo. Tyria physics means infinite ammo. Yet Engineers are in an industrial revolution while the Guardian is compeletely medievil. Why doesn't the guardian have blessed grenades? Why doesn't the engineer have enchanted turrets? It's like those classes exist in completely different worlds yet can still play alongside each other.
If one class has access to industrial technology then the entire world should have access to industrial technology unless a good explanation is given. Yet there's only a single class using all that high-tech stuff. Why hasn't the rest of the world advanced with him?
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I've always liked gun users, although I'm not sure it fits right into GW. Almost every game released today has a class with a gun, I guess they want to pull in both fantasy and sci-fi players. Now if only the engineer could build laser walls and tesla coil turrets hehe
It does look like it would be fun to play, but I have to agree with many of the other posters in that I think ANet took the technology angle a bit too far.
Perhaps, or maybe not. GW2 is 250 years after GW1. That amount of time is a huge gap of lore that could be filled in how they advanvced the techI really think it will make a great addition to GW2.
I have wanted an engineer class of a sort ever since they announced the making of GW2. I expected it to go more towards the Asura class due to there overly large brains in there small bodies. But then again, Charr is also perfect being a bold and blunt type of race.
You're totally right in saying there could easily be tons of explanations. But there aren't any.
I'm not complaining about the existance of all the high-tech stuff. I'm complaining about the lack of a decent official explanation that hints at the why and how of all the high-tech stuff.
What? How did you come up with the brilliant theory that there is not a lore explanation for the engineering profession? What because it was announced around 24 hours ago and we didn’t get a lore pamphlet explain everything? Well since you are expecting this that must mean ANet did that on all the other profession releases. Oh wait they didn’t! On all the other professions they did the official release, and then had interviews to explain how the class works. After a week they would then releases an official post with question that the CMs found that was common from all the fans. So where did you come up with the idea that a huge lore explanation should be given on day 1, when all the other professions releases did not have that.
My finally question is do you guys really believe Jeff Grubb, and the other lore people from ANet, has not created any lore for the engineer? You know Jeff Grubb one of the guys that help create the D&D worlds; you really think they never had any discussion about the lore. So how about we wait to see what ANet tells us, and you know do something crazy like play the game. Then if there is no lore explaining it you can light your torches and grab the pitch forks and head to a convention center to get your answers from Jeff Grubb. Or we can be Chicken Little and say “Oh my god there is no lore for this, the profession has been announced for 24 and we did not get a lore fact sheet, this is the end of the world.”
I love it. Granted I have always been fond of "builder" classes in mmos (animist in daoc, tactician in AC2). I can somewhat see how people are a little upset with the overall "high" techness of the class, but at the same time the world is drastically different than the original GW world, and well a lot has happened and changed since. I trust Anet has all of their bases covered.
You're totally right in saying there could easily be tons of explanations. But there aren't any.
I'm not complaining about the existance of all the high-tech stuff. I'm complaining about the lack of a decent official explanation that hints at the why and how of all the high-tech stuff.
What? How did you come up with the brilliant theory that there is not a lore explanation for the engineering profession? What because it was announced around 24 hours ago and we didn’t get a lore pamphlet explain everything? Well since you are expecting this that must mean ANet did that on all the other profession releases. Oh wait they didn’t! On all the other professions they did the official release, and then had interviews to explain how the class works. After a week they would then releases an official post with question that the CMs found that was common from all the fans. So where did you come up with the idea that a huge lore explanation should be given on day 1, when all the other professions releases did not have that.
My finally question is do you guys really believe Jeff Grubb, and the other lore people from ANet, has not created any lore for the engineer? You know Jeff Grubb one of the guys that help create the D&D worlds; you really think they never had any discussion about the lore. So how about we wait to see what ANet tells us, and you know do something crazy like play the game. Then if there is no lore explaining it you can light your torches and grab the pitch forks and head to a convention center to get your answers from Jeff Grubb. Or we can be Chicken Little and say “Oh my god there is no lore for this, the profession has been announced for 24 and we did not get a lore fact sheet, this is the end of the world.”
Nice of you to leave this part of the quote out of it:
Originally posted by gobla
I don't like the engineer because there isn't any real lore behind it. They could make that lore and maybe I'd start liking the class. But right now there just isn't any lore. If the developers don't take their game and classes serious enough to make up a halfway reasonable explanation for why the world is as it is then why should I?
Or totally ignoring this from me earlier:
Originally posted by gobla
Again, all this is coming from a lore extremist standpoint. Don't take it too seriously I'm just trying to explain what I dislike about making games that are 50% medievil and 50% steampunk with seemingly absolutely nothing in between.
I know you're apperantly on some sort of crusade to prove one of my posts wrong, and I must say I'm flattered. But could you please stop taking the things I say out of context?
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
love it, it'll be my main. ANet's got balls. im actually more happy about the fact that many people are disturbed by it. it just shows how stagnant MMO's have become. if anyone can do steampunk, it's ANet. even though steampunk has been a part of the Warcraft universe since the beginning, i always hated it because all machinery looked like Tonka toys.
I hate when games mix steampunk/tech into fantasy. I got away from the Final Fantasy series when they went that direction. I find it breaks the lore because when gunpowder and guns came into being for the Western world armor became obsolete. So it makes little sense that a steampunk/tech environment goes well with say the guardian and warrior with heavy armor.
I know it gives more "range" in design choices but I for one voted dislike.
Please don't rant on me it's a fantasy world blah blah blah, because the moment you bring tech into it, it becomes more sci-fi and even fantasy worlds need gravity and physics to behave consistently to keep people immersed. Magic can change physics but that is not the direction this class took at all.
Thirty years of gaming experience...not sure if I should be proud of that www.mmoexaminer.blogspot.com
The Prophecies Ranger would like to have a word with you about his spirits.
With Tyria physics I mean that everything that's in the game is consistent with everything else in the game. Ritualists are consistent because Prophecies rangers could already summon spirits, just not human spirits. I find the Engineer inconsistent because he has tons of high-tech gadgets and weapons while half the GW2 world is still completely medievil without any decent explanation behind it.
Infintie spears aren't a problem because all classes had infinite ammo, the whole world had infinite ammo. Tyria physics means infinite ammo. Yet Engineers are in an industrial revolution while the Guardian is compeletely medievil. Why doesn't the guardian have blessed grenades? Why doesn't the engineer have enchanted turrets? It's like those classes exist in completely different worlds yet can still play alongside each other.
If one class has access to industrial technology then the entire world should have access to industrial technology unless a good explanation is given. Yet there's only a single class using all that high-tech stuff. Why hasn't the rest of the world advanced with him?
To me, all lore is a bunch of crap. It's just about spinning it. It's about selling it so that people don't think what you're including in your game is too outlandish. You have a very high threshold. I have a very low threshold. I just don't care.
Rangers do have spirits but their effects are all triggered or passive. They don't just start shooting people who step in range. It doesn't necessarily follow that passive ranger nature spirits lead to active ritualist human spirits. It is a leap, however small. The key element here in regards to whether people buy into it is whether they consider the leap to be smaller or larger for than their threshold for buying into lore.
I see what you're saying about how the engineer has had an industrial revolution versus a medieval guardian but when you have a class based game any distinction is completely arbitrary. Why are rangers in GW1 the only ones that use preparations (when there is one of them that isn't just about bows, but makes all your physical attacks deal poison). Why do elementalists get earth, air, fire and water but necromancers get death? Why couldn't an elementalist decide to only do fire and death? Why do only rangers put down traps? And why don't they just summoning spirits that explode when people come into range? Why would assassins not utilize adrenaline when 3 other martial (2 hand to hand) classes do?
I'm not looking for answers to any of those questions, just saying that at the end of the day I don't really care. It's a game, the engineer is cool, end of story. I don't need it to make sense more than I need anything else to make sense.
And I must say we have gotten seriously far away from my original "guns and swords are ok together because neither kill people immediately" argument.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Absolutely bloody love it because as has been pointed out elsewhere, fantasy is a broad genre with subgnenres like steampunk, clockpunk, and even dieselpunk and atompunk if you get into science-fantasy. Anyone who doesn't know this hasn't read a lot of books. The foundations for the class are there, it makes sense within the context of Tyria, and the mechanics are really fun. It's a brilliant idea executed well.
I hate when games mix steampunk/tech into fantasy.
In regards to literature, you do realise that steampunk is a subgenre of fantasy, right? And besides, it isn't steampunk, it's clockpuk. Mr. Grubb himself has said that a number of times now, and yes, clockpunk is a subgenre of steampunk, which is a subgenre of fantasy.
Fantasy is a pretty broad topic, as you may not know.
---
And it's worth noting that clockpunk has been with us for a while and has a fun grounds in pseudoscience.
Comments
I'm indifferent to the Engineer class. As for the people complaining about guns in GW2 I don't think I have ever seen a steampunk setting that didn't have swords and guns at the same time.
My theme song.
Once you go down the road of explaining things, you gotta go all the way, so why start?
In the real world bullet velocity is upwards of 800 ft/s. Yet in Tyria, you can probably dodge bullets. An arrow in the real world supposedly can go 450 ft/s, yet in Tyria you can definitely dodge that. Maybe there's excessive air resistance, maybe the laws of physics regarding kinetic energy are rewritten. To me it doesn't matter.
Guns have some hidden disadvantage, whatever it is that makes the nonlethal. Swords also have some kind of disadvantage that makes them nonlethal. Nobody is clamoring for an explanation as to why a sword just takes of 10% of hps and doesn't cripple someone for life. However little sense it makes in the real world doesn't matter, because in this world, that's the way it is.
I mean, look at ritualists. The more you think about it, the less sense it makes to be able to summon a spirit content to sit in one place and start nuking people, or why you can pay extra to nuke people and also blind them. But it's ok, it's magic, it doesn't have to make sense. But take away it being a spirit and replace it with a turret and all of a sudden we need to explain how it can have a targeting system that would have to be better than exists in the real world.
It's a game, nothing about it makes sense. The only difference is whether we want to just admit it makes no sense or whether we want to sweep it all under the rug we call Magic.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Mainly focussing on guns since, imho, the rest is just too ridicilious to even argue about.
But if guns are nothing more then tiny bows with tiny arrows then what's the use of making them guns? Why not make them handcrossbows?
Personally I feel much the same way about the Engineer as I do about Twilight vampires. Why give Engineers all the high-tech gadgets if you're not going to take them seriously anyway? Why call Twilight glittery guys vampires if you're not going to take them seriously anyway?
Again, all this is coming from a lore extremist standpoint. Don't take it too seriously I'm just trying to explain what I dislike about making games that are 50% medievil and 50% steampunk with seemingly absolutely nothing in between.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
You're explaining it by RL physics. I asked for a Tyria physics explanation.
Ritualists make 100% sense in tyria physics because the whole world is built around them. Spirits are an integral part of the GW lore.
If they had made the engineer some sort of Ritualist/Scientist combo who made mechanicl devices that were powered by the spirits of the dead I wouldn't have complained. That makes sense in the GW lore.
This does not.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
It would have been better if the Engineer himself wielded the turret, It just did not look quite right and maybe a little faster ?. The Mines hmmm.. Just can't decide.
To me the engineer class looked like it did not fit all that well with the other classes in the game, all he needs is a utility belt and a black winged suit and we have Batman :S
No mechanical pets armed to the teeth with guns and explosives ? this would have made me like the class a whole lot more, and maybe an armored exo-skeleton that could be worn ?
I would have to say i dislike this class.
Unfortunately this is also how I feel it.
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There could be tons of explenations to why exactly they have invented guns - I mean, a person who has a scientific mind, where as he is quite accurate, but not very skilled with a bow (as you have to aim higher for the arrow to travel further), where as with guns, you usually just aim straight forward, and that in theory only requires you to be accurate towards you now might be aiming for.
And since gunpowder already excisted in GW1 I can't see why they should't try to make it more into a weapon instead of keeping to powder kegs.
talking about disadvantages then:
Bows are silent, guns are not.
Guns are heavier than bows which also requires more strength to carry overall.
And automated turrets could easily be powered by magic - I can't see why it should't be possible anyway, where as apparently engineers are capable of arbsorbing magic and then use it for their own gain, as shown in one of the videos.
As to the lore aspect, then even though some of you state that asuran technology doesnt count, i'd very much agree - What I mean is, as with the example above with the engineers being capable of arbsorbing magic, then thats either a specific material which can arbsorb magic, or they had someone who knows to do magic, or them selfs for that matter to cast a spell on the shield to arbsorb it and then be able to use it for their own gain. Asuran techonology revolves around magic, that means they already either knew about this material, or has been imbueing their technological wonders with magic to ensure that the magic stays inside of the object (such as golems).
I don't know that much about GW lore except for what I have read on GW websites and experienced by playing the game, where as in the end it is the writers who decides how the lore expands, and I don't believe there has ever been mentioning about mechanical technological wonders being completely impossible.
I voted "Like it" as since I will most likely not be playing it as its not my type of class as such, but I like diversity, and they are certainly providing that - and im quite excited about the class skill combos ;p
Mostly because metal slugs deal more damage than tiny arrows? Also, guns are relevant and serious because they are point and kill - whereas arrows take a significantly larger amount of skill.
I too am a lorehound, which is why certain things annoy me - but certainly not this. This is easy, what with the technological advances of Charr and Asura since the first Guild Wars (two races already capable of creating great constructs) it is natural that a hand-held device able to deal damage by pointing at a target would be created and used. Warfare advances, assuming Tyria to be = to Earth is a giant misstep in this arguement I think. We just have to look at what Humans had 250 years ago and compare to today. You will see that Earth has gone through much more radical changes in said time than Guild Wars.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
This xD
What is Tyria physics? And how could we describe it except in relation to RL physics? I suggested maybe projectiles have significantly less kinetic energy in this world that makes then nonlethal. You must pardon me if I don't come up with an internally consistent set of equations to describe an alternate physics reality on the fly for the purpose of debating a video game with someone on the internet.
Enemies can dodge arrows in GW1, so if anything, the physics basis for it was there already. As much as it needs to be explained anyway. It is a game where a ranger can shoot three arrows at the same time at someone, and where paragons have an infinite supply of spears to carry with them.
Ritualists didn't exist in GW Prophecies. It wasn't until Factions that they introduced a guy who summons spirit turrets. Ritualists would make zero sense according to Prophecies lore. They modified the lore in order to be able to include the class, probably for no other reason than because it was cool. If they want to say that engineers make sense because 250 years have passed, I'm fine with that. It makes about as much sense as saying riualist style communing is in the game because it's on another continent.
Maybe we have fundamentally different viewpoints. You want GW2 lore to make sense given the existing GW1 lore. I'm saying none of it makes sense so consistency between then and now isn't necessary.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Lore biscuits, anyone?
Indifferent.
It does look like it would be fun to play, but I have to agree with many of the other posters in that I think ANet took the technology angle a bit too far. Firearms, yes. I can go with that. But auto-tracking turrets I think starts to leave steampunk behind and enters the realm of cyberpunk. If it could somehow be justified, like having a bound spirit controlling the targetting, I could understand it. But this looks to be purely mechanical in nature and I can't see it being done with the level of technology I think they should have.
Maybe the turrets are a joint invention with the help of the asura and actually do use magic internally. An asura guidance system combined with charr firearms. I'm stretching, but at least it's plausible under the restrictions of the lore. I just want a bit more solid a rationale than "technology has progressed".
You're totally right in saying there could easily be tons of explanations. But there aren't any.
I'm not complaining about the existance of all the high-tech stuff. I'm complaining about the lack of a decent official explanation that hints at the why and how of all the high-tech stuff.
I'd have no problems about a game combining nuclear missile launchers with wooden clubs as long as there was a decent explanation for it.
I don't like the engineer because there isn't any real lore behind it. They could make that lore and maybe I'd start liking the class. But right now there just isn't any lore. If the developers don't take their game and classes serious enough to make up a halfway reasonable explanation for why the world is as it is then why should I?
The Prophecies Ranger would like to have a word with you about his spirits.
With Tyria physics I mean that everything that's in the game is consistent with everything else in the game. Ritualists are consistent because Prophecies rangers could already summon spirits, just not human spirits. I find the Engineer inconsistent because he has tons of high-tech gadgets and weapons while half the GW2 world is still completely medievil without any decent explanation behind it.
Infintie spears aren't a problem because all classes had infinite ammo, the whole world had infinite ammo. Tyria physics means infinite ammo. Yet Engineers are in an industrial revolution while the Guardian is compeletely medievil. Why doesn't the guardian have blessed grenades? Why doesn't the engineer have enchanted turrets? It's like those classes exist in completely different worlds yet can still play alongside each other.
If one class has access to industrial technology then the entire world should have access to industrial technology unless a good explanation is given. Yet there's only a single class using all that high-tech stuff. Why hasn't the rest of the world advanced with him?
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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I've always liked gun users, although I'm not sure it fits right into GW. Almost every game released today has a class with a gun, I guess they want to pull in both fantasy and sci-fi players. Now if only the engineer could build laser walls and tesla coil turrets hehe
Perhaps, or maybe not. GW2 is 250 years after GW1. That amount of time is a huge gap of lore that could be filled in how they advanvced the techI really think it will make a great addition to GW2.
I have wanted an engineer class of a sort ever since they announced the making of GW2. I expected it to go more towards the Asura class due to there overly large brains in there small bodies. But then again, Charr is also perfect being a bold and blunt type of race.
What? How did you come up with the brilliant theory that there is not a lore explanation for the engineering profession? What because it was announced around 24 hours ago and we didn’t get a lore pamphlet explain everything? Well since you are expecting this that must mean ANet did that on all the other profession releases. Oh wait they didn’t! On all the other professions they did the official release, and then had interviews to explain how the class works. After a week they would then releases an official post with question that the CMs found that was common from all the fans. So where did you come up with the idea that a huge lore explanation should be given on day 1, when all the other professions releases did not have that.
My finally question is do you guys really believe Jeff Grubb, and the other lore people from ANet, has not created any lore for the engineer? You know Jeff Grubb one of the guys that help create the D&D worlds; you really think they never had any discussion about the lore. So how about we wait to see what ANet tells us, and you know do something crazy like play the game. Then if there is no lore explaining it you can light your torches and grab the pitch forks and head to a convention center to get your answers from Jeff Grubb. Or we can be Chicken Little and say “Oh my god there is no lore for this, the profession has been announced for 24 and we did not get a lore fact sheet, this is the end of the world.”
I love it. Granted I have always been fond of "builder" classes in mmos (animist in daoc, tactician in AC2). I can somewhat see how people are a little upset with the overall "high" techness of the class, but at the same time the world is drastically different than the original GW world, and well a lot has happened and changed since. I trust Anet has all of their bases covered.
Nice of you to leave this part of the quote out of it:
Or totally ignoring this from me earlier:
I know you're apperantly on some sort of crusade to prove one of my posts wrong, and I must say I'm flattered. But could you please stop taking the things I say out of context?
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
love it, it'll be my main. ANet's got balls. im actually more happy about the fact that many people are disturbed by it. it just shows how stagnant MMO's have become. if anyone can do steampunk, it's ANet. even though steampunk has been a part of the Warcraft universe since the beginning, i always hated it because all machinery looked like Tonka toys.
I hate when games mix steampunk/tech into fantasy. I got away from the Final Fantasy series when they went that direction. I find it breaks the lore because when gunpowder and guns came into being for the Western world armor became obsolete. So it makes little sense that a steampunk/tech environment goes well with say the guardian and warrior with heavy armor.
I know it gives more "range" in design choices but I for one voted dislike.
Please don't rant on me it's a fantasy world blah blah blah, because the moment you bring tech into it, it becomes more sci-fi and even fantasy worlds need gravity and physics to behave consistently to keep people immersed. Magic can change physics but that is not the direction this class took at all.
Thirty years of gaming experience...not sure if I should be proud of that
www.mmoexaminer.blogspot.com
To me, all lore is a bunch of crap. It's just about spinning it. It's about selling it so that people don't think what you're including in your game is too outlandish. You have a very high threshold. I have a very low threshold. I just don't care.
Rangers do have spirits but their effects are all triggered or passive. They don't just start shooting people who step in range. It doesn't necessarily follow that passive ranger nature spirits lead to active ritualist human spirits. It is a leap, however small. The key element here in regards to whether people buy into it is whether they consider the leap to be smaller or larger for than their threshold for buying into lore.
I see what you're saying about how the engineer has had an industrial revolution versus a medieval guardian but when you have a class based game any distinction is completely arbitrary. Why are rangers in GW1 the only ones that use preparations (when there is one of them that isn't just about bows, but makes all your physical attacks deal poison). Why do elementalists get earth, air, fire and water but necromancers get death? Why couldn't an elementalist decide to only do fire and death? Why do only rangers put down traps? And why don't they just summoning spirits that explode when people come into range? Why would assassins not utilize adrenaline when 3 other martial (2 hand to hand) classes do?
I'm not looking for answers to any of those questions, just saying that at the end of the day I don't really care. It's a game, the engineer is cool, end of story. I don't need it to make sense more than I need anything else to make sense.
And I must say we have gotten seriously far away from my original "guns and swords are ok together because neither kill people immediately" argument.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Was a really nice surprise! Im not into fantasy classes, might try GW2 because of engineer!
I am indifferent about Engineer but am keenly awaiting a release date or even just a chance of signing up for a beta.
Absolutely bloody love it because as has been pointed out elsewhere, fantasy is a broad genre with subgnenres like steampunk, clockpunk, and even dieselpunk and atompunk if you get into science-fantasy. Anyone who doesn't know this hasn't read a lot of books. The foundations for the class are there, it makes sense within the context of Tyria, and the mechanics are really fun. It's a brilliant idea executed well.
Love it.
In regards to literature, you do realise that steampunk is a subgenre of fantasy, right? And besides, it isn't steampunk, it's clockpuk. Mr. Grubb himself has said that a number of times now, and yes, clockpunk is a subgenre of steampunk, which is a subgenre of fantasy.
Fantasy is a pretty broad topic, as you may not know.
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And it's worth noting that clockpunk has been with us for a while and has a fun grounds in pseudoscience.