I'm curious as to what makes this appealing to some people.
From my perspective, it sounds like it would be a real pain in the arse. You spend 'X' amount of hours crafting/finding "gear", someone/something kills you, you die, and someone takes all your stuff. Making the time you put into getting your "gear" useless.
Now, I know people say in these types of games to "only use what you can afford to lose." But, what then is the point to get anything better? If there's an "Epic Sword of Uber Doom" or a "Super Ship of Mega Awesomeness", that take days/weeks/months to aqquire, what's the point if you're never going to use it, or risk losing it if you do?
All that said, I could be looking at this all wrong and am just missing the point. But from where I'm standing, it seems like a huge time waster.
Thoughts?
-Z
On paper it looks great. You will take pvp a lot more seriously if you truly have something to lose other than just "face." The mmorpg genre feeds those who need immediate gratification, hate history and fantasy novels, and are not community friendly. Hence we have instanced BGs, broken lore in every mmorpg I can point too since WoW (other than Vanguard), and pvp is just a video game thrill ride that lasts about 10-15 mins per quarter inserted.
It would be nice to have something else other than the fast food mmorpgs we have these days. McDonald's has its place, but I for one, am tired of pink slime and otherwise synthetic fillers.
Anyway - loot games are meant for folks who have a lot of time to invest. I can't work all day, spend time with my family, log on at 8 pm and expect to get anywhere. The guy who works part time or not at all, and lives at home - now that guy is built for the total loot genre. He is the guy who bottom feeds on everyone else. He is the first to ask for full loot, and that guy who maxes out in a week and then posts lack of content.
So, it goes both ways. Full loot adds realilty. But as another point, that's the only reality you'll get in a full loot game. Hacks, broken issues, memory leaks, and people who get to rob non stop and despite certain "rules" like color changing and alignment shifts - somehow, these folks end up on top.
Personally...if you are gonna advertise sandbox, don't give us a trunk of cat litter with turds. There's a big difference. Want to provide full loot? Add in real guards, bounty hunters, rewards for teaming up, actual factions, etc.
Until then, don't forget as to why EVERY free for all pvp game fails. The few full loots out there are gone or on life support.
There are two types of people who enjoy full loot relatively unrestricted PvP:
1. People who want a dangerous environment where they feel there are real consequences for their actions. These people are often killed and looted.
2. People who want to indiscrimately kill other players and take all their stuff for profit.
Once you realize that this is the environment, full loot becomes a lot less appealing. You're either a sheep or a wolf.
I would add sheepdog in that analogy. The Anti-PK, good old boys in blue. Also this isn't even taking guild vs guild, small group, or people who never leave town and just cook fish into the picture.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
if you die? oh well, you had a blast while it lasted, you just go to the bank get your spare gear and place an order to your alliance blacksmith who will craft you 3 other sets for the price of 1.
Ok great, then where is the risk?
Some people keep saying this is risk. This is not risk.
There is absolutely no risk if your gear can easily be replaced.
the risk is that due to your death and countless other alliance mates, you probably just lost the castle/keep/territory thus the easy access to "farming grounds" (be it PvE, mines, work stations etc...)
in full loot pvp game, it stops being YOU YOU YOU, and the YOU ARE THE HERO, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE mentality will not succeed.
instead you should be thinking, HELP YOUR ALLIANCE AND YOUR ALLIANCE WILL HELP YOU. it's no longer about YOU, but about your alliance, your territory.
in a massively world, (if done right) YOU ARE NOT luke skywalker, YOU ARE uncle owen...
I've played a full-loot... limited gear... with death penalties... open pvp game. It was glorious.
But here is what made it work.
1) Getting gear from PvE wasn't obnoxious. Load rates were high and plentiful. Characters frequently had extra sets of gear strored in their banks... though at a point, it started to cost money to store the gear... so it also made a good economic factor.
2) Players had a quick escape option... and it could be used by players on one another... say your group gets jumped and one of your best guildmates is targetted... you could zap him right out of battle back to home saving the rare limit gear he might have.
3) Stealth characters were more of the scout/intel/utility variety - not the
if you die? oh well, you had a blast while it lasted, you just go to the bank get your spare gear and place an order to your alliance blacksmith who will craft you 3 other sets for the price of 1.
Ok great, then where is the risk?
Some people keep saying this is risk. This is not risk.
There is absolutely no risk if your gear can easily be replaced.
the risk is that due to your death and countless other alliance mates, you probably just lost the castle/keep/territory thus the easy access to "farming grounds" (be it PvE, mines, work stations etc...)
in full loot pvp game, it stops being YOU YOU YOU, and the YOU ARE THE HERO, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE mentality will not succeed.
instead you should be thinking, HELP YOUR ALLIANCE AND YOUR ALLIANCE WILL HELP YOU. it's no longer about YOU, but about your alliance, your territory.
in a massively world, (if done right) YOU ARE NOT luke skywalker, YOU ARE uncle owen...
if you die? oh well, you had a blast while it lasted, you just go to the bank get your spare gear and place an order to your alliance blacksmith who will craft you 3 other sets for the price of 1.
Ok great, then where is the risk?
Some people keep saying this is risk. This is not risk.
There is absolutely no risk if your gear can easily be replaced.
the risk is that due to your death and countless other alliance mates, you probably just lost the castle/keep/territory thus the easy access to "farming grounds" (be it PvE, mines, work stations etc...)
in full loot pvp game, it stops being YOU YOU YOU, and the YOU ARE THE HERO, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE mentality will not succeed.
instead you should be thinking, HELP YOUR ALLIANCE AND YOUR ALLIANCE WILL HELP YOU. it's no longer about YOU, but about your alliance, your territory.
in a massively world, (if done right) YOU ARE NOT luke skywalker, YOU ARE uncle owen...
And many of us remember what happened to him... Thanks, but I have no interest in providing entertainment for gangs of Goonies. FFA PvP games tend to be blob vs blob for the most part. They also tend to bring out the worst in all too many people. Packs of gankers roaming around griefing everyone they run into, who isn't also in a pack, isn't a play style I have any interest in.
if you die? oh well, you had a blast while it lasted, you just go to the bank get your spare gear and place an order to your alliance blacksmith who will craft you 3 other sets for the price of 1.
Ok great, then where is the risk?
Some people keep saying this is risk. This is not risk.
There is absolutely no risk if your gear can easily be replaced.
the risk is that due to your death and countless other alliance mates, you probably just lost the castle/keep/territory thus the easy access to "farming grounds" (be it PvE, mines, work stations etc...)
in full loot pvp game, it stops being YOU YOU YOU, and the YOU ARE THE HERO, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE mentality will not succeed.
instead you should be thinking, HELP YOUR ALLIANCE AND YOUR ALLIANCE WILL HELP YOU. it's no longer about YOU, but about your alliance, your territory.
in a massively world, (if done right) YOU ARE NOT luke skywalker, YOU ARE uncle owen...
if you die? oh well, you had a blast while it lasted, you just go to the bank get your spare gear and place an order to your alliance blacksmith who will craft you 3 other sets for the price of 1.
Ok great, then where is the risk?
Some people keep saying this is risk. This is not risk.
There is absolutely no risk if your gear can easily be replaced.
the risk is that due to your death and countless other alliance mates, you probably just lost the castle/keep/territory thus the easy access to "farming grounds" (be it PvE, mines, work stations etc...)
in full loot pvp game, it stops being YOU YOU YOU, and the YOU ARE THE HERO, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE mentality will not succeed.
instead you should be thinking, HELP YOUR ALLIANCE AND YOUR ALLIANCE WILL HELP YOU. it's no longer about YOU, but about your alliance, your territory.
in a massively world, (if done right) YOU ARE NOT luke skywalker, YOU ARE uncle owen...
So what game you playing which have that?
EvE
That's the thing, the game play of eve is very different from the general fantasy game that makes up the majority of the mmorpg market. The environment is in space, that have alot of work cutoff for the dev. It's like comparing a 2D sidescrolling game to a 3D game.
If I am mining for example besides my guild keep in a generic fantasy game, I'd still be ganked, unless there's npc arrow shooting from my guild keep.
if you die? oh well, you had a blast while it lasted, you just go to the bank get your spare gear and place an order to your alliance blacksmith who will craft you 3 other sets for the price of 1.
Ok great, then where is the risk?
Some people keep saying this is risk. This is not risk.
There is absolutely no risk if your gear can easily be replaced.
the risk is that due to your death and countless other alliance mates, you probably just lost the castle/keep/territory thus the easy access to "farming grounds" (be it PvE, mines, work stations etc...)
in full loot pvp game, it stops being YOU YOU YOU, and the YOU ARE THE HERO, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE mentality will not succeed.
instead you should be thinking, HELP YOUR ALLIANCE AND YOUR ALLIANCE WILL HELP YOU. it's no longer about YOU, but about your alliance, your territory.
in a massively world, (if done right) YOU ARE NOT luke skywalker, YOU ARE uncle owen...
[I'm editng this for "snarkiness"]
We are talking about full loot. Not the politics and interactions with other players. Not the ins and outs of ffa pvp games. I know full well about ffa pvp games but we are talking about full loot.
To that end, you don't even need to have a full loot or a pvp game to have a game where players help each other. I believe one already exists. So the idea of full loot has to encompass more than just helping your fellow player. If indeed it's even possible as once you are down your stuff is gone.
If it is easy to replace your gear and you have a bank full of gear or your clan crafter can make you up a set then there is no risk. So in order for full loot to actually work there needs to be more.
If it is difficult to make your gear then there is a risk. But that has nothing to do with helping your caln or your dislike for themepark games (which is what I'm getting from your post). Perhaps you'd like to address the idea of risk in these games?
Whether or not there is a castle or territory or helping your clan is, in this case immaterial.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
^ Depends entirely what you consider "easy" I'd say it's pretty easy if it takes about an hour of farming to craft an entire set of gear, you'd probably have your bank full in a day. But everytime you die, you effectively lose an hour that you need to farm back, imagine if wow had an hour ressurection sickness wouldn't that be considered a risk?
Also full loot has a big impact on war, because it allows for an entire new layer of options to win or lose it.
The thing to me is even in those full loot pvp, there should be "raletively safe area" that the sheep can pve and farm. I think Eve have those, but other than that I dont' think other games have that.
And all those territory control sounds fun, but that's probably what eve have and non other game have it.
The thing to me is even in those full loot pvp, there should be "raletively safe area" that the sheep can pve and farm. I think Eve have those, but other than that I dont' think other games have that.
And all those territory control sounds fun, but that's probably what eve have and non other game have it.
Yes, EVE has high sec space. High Sec is patrolled by Concord (think galactic police/Dev's enforcers...^^). But Concords job isn't to prevent aggression, its purely retribution...^^ High Sec has a different set of ROE's than low sec or null sec, but one sees suicide ganking from time to time in high sec. The evolution of Concord to its current state, is a fascinating example of the arms race between CCP (attempting to protect its business model) and the gankers/griefers (Goonies will be Goonies...).
Thats one of the reasons there are so few FFA PvP (let alone full loot) games in the modern western market. Any game that allows (let alone encourages) total FFA full loot is automatically in a very narrow niche. Which seriously limits its profit potential. Given that such games tend to bring out the worst in many people, thats only to be expected.
^ Depends entirely what you consider "easy" I'd say it's pretty easy if it takes about an hour of farming to craft an entire set of gear, you'd probably have your bank full in a day. But everytime you die, you effectively lose an hour that you need to farm back, imagine if wow had an hour ressurection sickness wouldn't that be considered a risk?
Also full loot has a big impact on war, because it allows for an entire new layer of options to win or lose it.
But it wouldn't be an hour unless there was a timer for the actual craft.
If part of an open game is crafting, gathering mats, then your crafters are going to be doing this stuff over the normal course of game play. Heck, people like crafting.
I remember in Lineage 2 that it took a lot of expensive mats to craft gear. Having full loot in that game (over the chance to drop if you were red) would have been brutal.
Conversely, having anyone be able to collect mats so that they can craft on the drop of a dime negates any risk.
I"m not sure where the middle ground is as if it's too brutal that will encourage rmt. I remember someone talking about DarkFall and some sort fo high level staff. His claim was that he had a warehouse full of them so getting one looted was no big deal.
If players have warehouses filled with good crafted gear then that ostensibly mitigates any risk.
So then, what is the draw to full loot? To be honest, for the bit I tried Darkfall I never once felt a risk wiht losign stuff because I was hoarding my drops. Low level stuff to be certain but dying was not a big deal.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Games are shallow without it, you need a sense of danger in the world or its just boring to hell.
I disagree. Most of the world in Runescape isn't FULL LOOT. You can have total fun in the game without ever touching PvP nor full loot. Same thing with WoW. I had total fun in Vanilla WoW -WoTLK. No full loot.
Also full loot has a big impact on war, because it allows for an entire new layer of options to win or lose it.
But it wouldn't be an hour unless there was a timer for the actual craft.
If part of an open game is crafting, gathering mats, then your crafters are going to be doing this stuff over the normal course of game play. Heck, people like crafting.
I remember in Lineage 2 that it took a lot of expensive mats to craft gear. Having full loot in that game (over the chance to drop if you were red) would have been brutal.
Conversely, having anyone be able to collect mats so that they can craft on the drop of a dime negates any risk.
I"m not sure where the middle ground is as if it's too brutal that will encourage rmt. I remember someone talking about DarkFall and some sort fo high level staff. His claim was that he had a warehouse full of them so getting one looted was no big deal.
If players have warehouses filled with good crafted gear then that ostensibly mitigates any risk.
So then, what is the draw to full loot? To be honest, for the bit I tried Darkfall I never once felt a risk wiht losign stuff because I was hoarding my drops. Low level stuff to be certain but dying was not a big deal.
The thing is that all games with full loot have gear mechanics with that in mind. Just adding full loot to any MMO is a disaster, but if you do it right it works.
There is a reason FPS games usually have very simple gear mechanics even though lately they have becomecloser to MMOs.
If you spend weeks to get a single item or if gear make a huge impact in the game full loot is just crap.
If you on the other hand easily can refill it the mechanics works.
That also means that full loot makes more sense in less technological worlds. If you play a stone age game you more or less pick up a bit of flint, chip it up and fasten it to a stick to get the weapon, the armor you get by killing a bear (or something), scrape of the goo from the skin and put holes for arms and head.
You don´t craft a H&K G36 and a kevlar body suit as easy or as fast.
Games are shallow without it, you need a sense of danger in the world or its just boring to hell.
Nah .. lots of good games don't punish the players for failure and they can start where they were at. Skyrim, Bioshock, Dead Space, the list goes on and on.
just dying and having to restart is enough. And you can wipe and wipe in hard PvE encounters, or get camped in PvP encounters.
If those are "boring to hell", i fail to see why millions and millions of players are playing them every day. Hint: boring to YOU does not equal boring to others.
I'm curious as to what makes this appealing to some people.
From my perspective, it sounds like it would be a real pain in the arse. You spend 'X' amount of hours crafting/finding "gear", someone/something kills you, you die, and someone takes all your stuff. Making the time you put into getting your "gear" useless.
Now, I know people say in these types of games to "only use what you can afford to lose." But, what then is the point to get anything better? If there's an "Epic Sword of Uber Doom" or a "Super Ship of Mega Awesomeness", that take days/weeks/months to aqquire, what's the point if you're never going to use it, or risk losing it if you do?
All that said, I could be looking at this all wrong and am just missing the point. But from where I'm standing, it seems like a huge time waster.
Thoughts?
-Z
I think it only appeals to less than 10% of the population. IMO, it's the type of people who could be declared sociopaths sadists. It sould be great to see a long term study on the personality types who are attracted to this type of game play and use it to identify risky people in society.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I'm curious as to what makes this appealing to some people.
From my perspective, it sounds like it would be a real pain in the arse. You spend 'X' amount of hours crafting/finding "gear", someone/something kills you, you die, and someone takes all your stuff. Making the time you put into getting your "gear" useless.
Now, I know people say in these types of games to "only use what you can afford to lose." But, what then is the point to get anything better? If there's an "Epic Sword of Uber Doom" or a "Super Ship of Mega Awesomeness", that take days/weeks/months to aqquire, what's the point if you're never going to use it, or risk losing it if you do?
All that said, I could be looking at this all wrong and am just missing the point. But from where I'm standing, it seems like a huge time waster.
Thoughts?
-Z
I think it only appeals to less than 10% of the population. IMO, it's the type of people who could be declared sociopaths sadists. It sould be great to see a long term study on the personality types who are attracted to this type of game play and use it to identify risky people in society.
More like sociopaths ruin it for everyone else and otherwise its fine.
Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by Zolgar
I'm curious as to what makes this appealing to some people. From my perspective, it sounds like it would be a real pain in the arse. You spend 'X' amount of hours crafting/finding "gear", someone/something kills you, you die, and someone takes all your stuff. Making the time you put into getting your "gear" useless. Now, I know people say in these types of games to "only use what you can afford to lose." But, what then is the point to get anything better? If there's an "Epic Sword of Uber Doom" or a "Super Ship of Mega Awesomeness", that take days/weeks/months to aqquire, what's the point if you're never going to use it, or risk losing it if you do? All that said, I could be looking at this all wrong and am just missing the point. But from where I'm standing, it seems like a huge time waster. Thoughts? -Z
I think it only appeals to less than 10% of the population. IMO, it's the type of people who could be declared sociopaths sadists. It sould be great to see a long term study on the personality types who are attracted to this type of game play and use it to identify risky people in society.
More like sociopaths ruin it for everyone else and otherwise its fine.
It's just risk v reward. Nothing more complicated than that.
The problem isn't sociopaths, it's whiners getting attached to their digital penis' and getting butt hurt if they lose.
That's it.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
I'm curious as to what makes this appealing to some people.
From my perspective, it sounds like it would be a real pain in the arse. You spend 'X' amount of hours crafting/finding "gear", someone/something kills you, you die, and someone takes all your stuff. Making the time you put into getting your "gear" useless.
Now, I know people say in these types of games to "only use what you can afford to lose." But, what then is the point to get anything better? If there's an "Epic Sword of Uber Doom" or a "Super Ship of Mega Awesomeness", that take days/weeks/months to aqquire, what's the point if you're never going to use it, or risk losing it if you do?
All that said, I could be looking at this all wrong and am just missing the point. But from where I'm standing, it seems like a huge time waster.
Thoughts?
-Z
I think it only appeals to less than 10% of the population. IMO, it's the type of people who could be declared sociopaths sadists. It sould be great to see a long term study on the personality types who are attracted to this type of game play and use it to identify risky people in society.
More like sociopaths ruin it for everyone else and otherwise its fine.
While waynejr2's comment was a cheap-shot (really sociopaths?) my opinion is that FFA Full-loot pvp is just not feaseable in an MMO. Such a game would require a large amount of crafters, social types, etc (victims) to keep the pvp hardcore types interested (wolves). What always happens is the sheep get tired of being ganked and all you have left is a bunch of wolves running around naked with nothing much to do.
For a FFA PvP game to work, I think the following rules need to be implemented to keep things balanced:
No full loot. You drop whatever items on you that were not equiped. Equiped items go with you when you rez but take damage.
Items needs to have decay. At some point you should not be able to repair an item. This will keep the economy going and crafters with something to do.
Skill based system, no levels or classes.
Players should not be able to gage each others "level of advancement" or any other artificial system to gage how strong another player is. "Humm is that guy gathering mats just some low skill noob or a powerful wizard that can insta fry me with one spell?"
Player built cities and towns. (Ok, that has nothing to do with PvP or full-loot but is on my wish list.)
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
I'm curious as to what makes this appealing to some people.
From my perspective, it sounds like it would be a real pain in the arse. You spend 'X' amount of hours crafting/finding "gear", someone/something kills you, you die, and someone takes all your stuff. Making the time you put into getting your "gear" useless.
Now, I know people say in these types of games to "only use what you can afford to lose." But, what then is the point to get anything better? If there's an "Epic Sword of Uber Doom" or a "Super Ship of Mega Awesomeness", that take days/weeks/months to aqquire, what's the point if you're never going to use it, or risk losing it if you do?
All that said, I could be looking at this all wrong and am just missing the point. But from where I'm standing, it seems like a huge time waster.
Thoughts?
-Z
I think it only appeals to less than 10% of the population. IMO, it's the type of people who could be declared sociopaths sadists. It sould be great to see a long term study on the personality types who are attracted to this type of game play and use it to identify risky people in society.
More like sociopaths ruin it for everyone else and otherwise its fine.
While waynejr2's comment was a cheap-shot (really sociopaths?) my opinion is that FFA Full-loot pvp is just not feaseable in an MMO. Such a game would require a large amount of crafters, social types, etc (victims) to keep the pvp hardcore types interested (wolves). What always happens is the sheep get tired of being ganked and all you have left is a bunch of wolves running around naked with nothing much to do.
For a FFA PvP game to work, I think the following rules need to be implemented to keep things balanced:
No full loot. You drop whatever items on you that were not equiped. Equiped items go with you when you rez but take damage.
Items needs to have decay. At some point you should not be able to repair an item. This will keep the economy going and crafters with something to do.
Skill based system, no levels or classes.
Players should not be able to gage each others "level of advancement" or any other artificial system to gage how strong another player is. "Humm is that guy gathering mats just some low skill noob or a powerful wizard that can insta fry me with one spell?"
Player built cities and towns. (Ok, that has nothing to do with PvP or full-loot but is on my wish list.)
Hahaha, when I was still considering the full loot pvp system for my game instead of focusing on pve Ihad decided:
skill based
no power indicators
item decay
only player made settlements
Basically the same conclusion as you, excepting I did have full loot.
I love full loot pvp. when I try to play other games without it I usually get the itch for it after about a month. When playing other games there really isn't a sense of danger when exploring, mining, or questing. I know a few of my friends that though the same thing as the OP going into a game with full loot pvp and converted we resubbed to darkfall about 4 or 5 times now.
Just a few months ago we sold everything we had and bought several hundred mounts just to spawn for people to grab thinking it was our final farewell. But resubbed again few days ago XD.
I'ts not like the gear is hard to get in a game like darkfall it's pretty easy to get geared up.
This system quickly and effectively removes the "solo" player from the game. While many people may want that to happen, it also ensures the audience is smaller and as is the success of the game. There is nothing wrong with being a niche game though.
Only ultra-hardcore people are typically interested in these games, given the effort involved in building up characters and the possibility of starting certain aspects over from scratch.
I don't think this system is needed to make a good PVP game (land control objectives and rewards beyond silly trinkets/currency can do that effectively), but would agree that it does add a sense of danger to playing, to avoid death/being looted.
Comments
On paper it looks great. You will take pvp a lot more seriously if you truly have something to lose other than just "face." The mmorpg genre feeds those who need immediate gratification, hate history and fantasy novels, and are not community friendly. Hence we have instanced BGs, broken lore in every mmorpg I can point too since WoW (other than Vanguard), and pvp is just a video game thrill ride that lasts about 10-15 mins per quarter inserted.
It would be nice to have something else other than the fast food mmorpgs we have these days. McDonald's has its place, but I for one, am tired of pink slime and otherwise synthetic fillers.
Anyway - loot games are meant for folks who have a lot of time to invest. I can't work all day, spend time with my family, log on at 8 pm and expect to get anywhere. The guy who works part time or not at all, and lives at home - now that guy is built for the total loot genre. He is the guy who bottom feeds on everyone else. He is the first to ask for full loot, and that guy who maxes out in a week and then posts lack of content.
So, it goes both ways. Full loot adds realilty. But as another point, that's the only reality you'll get in a full loot game. Hacks, broken issues, memory leaks, and people who get to rob non stop and despite certain "rules" like color changing and alignment shifts - somehow, these folks end up on top.
Personally...if you are gonna advertise sandbox, don't give us a trunk of cat litter with turds. There's a big difference. Want to provide full loot? Add in real guards, bounty hunters, rewards for teaming up, actual factions, etc.
Until then, don't forget as to why EVERY free for all pvp game fails. The few full loots out there are gone or on life support.
I would add sheepdog in that analogy. The Anti-PK, good old boys in blue. Also this isn't even taking guild vs guild, small group, or people who never leave town and just cook fish into the picture.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/the risk is that due to your death and countless other alliance mates, you probably just lost the castle/keep/territory thus the easy access to "farming grounds" (be it PvE, mines, work stations etc...)
in full loot pvp game, it stops being YOU YOU YOU, and the YOU ARE THE HERO, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE mentality will not succeed.
instead you should be thinking, HELP YOUR ALLIANCE AND YOUR ALLIANCE WILL HELP YOU. it's no longer about YOU, but about your alliance, your territory.
in a massively world, (if done right) YOU ARE NOT luke skywalker, YOU ARE uncle owen...
It was a MUD. ArcticMud.
So what game you playing which have that?
And many of us remember what happened to him... Thanks, but I have no interest in providing entertainment for gangs of Goonies. FFA PvP games tend to be blob vs blob for the most part. They also tend to bring out the worst in all too many people. Packs of gankers roaming around griefing everyone they run into, who isn't also in a pack, isn't a play style I have any interest in.
EvE
That's the thing, the game play of eve is very different from the general fantasy game that makes up the majority of the mmorpg market. The environment is in space, that have alot of work cutoff for the dev. It's like comparing a 2D sidescrolling game to a 3D game.
If I am mining for example besides my guild keep in a generic fantasy game, I'd still be ganked, unless there's npc arrow shooting from my guild keep.
[I'm editng this for "snarkiness"]
We are talking about full loot. Not the politics and interactions with other players. Not the ins and outs of ffa pvp games. I know full well about ffa pvp games but we are talking about full loot.
To that end, you don't even need to have a full loot or a pvp game to have a game where players help each other. I believe one already exists. So the idea of full loot has to encompass more than just helping your fellow player. If indeed it's even possible as once you are down your stuff is gone.
If it is easy to replace your gear and you have a bank full of gear or your clan crafter can make you up a set then there is no risk. So in order for full loot to actually work there needs to be more.
If it is difficult to make your gear then there is a risk. But that has nothing to do with helping your caln or your dislike for themepark games (which is what I'm getting from your post). Perhaps you'd like to address the idea of risk in these games?
Whether or not there is a castle or territory or helping your clan is, in this case immaterial.
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^ Depends entirely what you consider "easy" I'd say it's pretty easy if it takes about an hour of farming to craft an entire set of gear, you'd probably have your bank full in a day. But everytime you die, you effectively lose an hour that you need to farm back, imagine if wow had an hour ressurection sickness wouldn't that be considered a risk?
Also full loot has a big impact on war, because it allows for an entire new layer of options to win or lose it.
The thing to me is even in those full loot pvp, there should be "raletively safe area" that the sheep can pve and farm. I think Eve have those, but other than that I dont' think other games have that.
And all those territory control sounds fun, but that's probably what eve have and non other game have it.
Yes, EVE has high sec space. High Sec is patrolled by Concord (think galactic police/Dev's enforcers...^^). But Concords job isn't to prevent aggression, its purely retribution...^^ High Sec has a different set of ROE's than low sec or null sec, but one sees suicide ganking from time to time in high sec. The evolution of Concord to its current state, is a fascinating example of the arms race between CCP (attempting to protect its business model) and the gankers/griefers (Goonies will be Goonies...).
Thats one of the reasons there are so few FFA PvP (let alone full loot) games in the modern western market. Any game that allows (let alone encourages) total FFA full loot is automatically in a very narrow niche. Which seriously limits its profit potential. Given that such games tend to bring out the worst in many people, thats only to be expected.
Maybe its just me but "farming for PvP" just sounds very dull and annoying.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
But it wouldn't be an hour unless there was a timer for the actual craft.
If part of an open game is crafting, gathering mats, then your crafters are going to be doing this stuff over the normal course of game play. Heck, people like crafting.
I remember in Lineage 2 that it took a lot of expensive mats to craft gear. Having full loot in that game (over the chance to drop if you were red) would have been brutal.
Conversely, having anyone be able to collect mats so that they can craft on the drop of a dime negates any risk.
I"m not sure where the middle ground is as if it's too brutal that will encourage rmt. I remember someone talking about DarkFall and some sort fo high level staff. His claim was that he had a warehouse full of them so getting one looted was no big deal.
If players have warehouses filled with good crafted gear then that ostensibly mitigates any risk.
So then, what is the draw to full loot? To be honest, for the bit I tried Darkfall I never once felt a risk wiht losign stuff because I was hoarding my drops. Low level stuff to be certain but dying was not a big deal.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I disagree. Most of the world in Runescape isn't FULL LOOT. You can have total fun in the game without ever touching PvP nor full loot. Same thing with WoW. I had total fun in Vanilla WoW -WoTLK. No full loot.Philosophy of MMO Game Design
The thing is that all games with full loot have gear mechanics with that in mind. Just adding full loot to any MMO is a disaster, but if you do it right it works.
There is a reason FPS games usually have very simple gear mechanics even though lately they have becomecloser to MMOs.
If you spend weeks to get a single item or if gear make a huge impact in the game full loot is just crap.
If you on the other hand easily can refill it the mechanics works.
That also means that full loot makes more sense in less technological worlds. If you play a stone age game you more or less pick up a bit of flint, chip it up and fasten it to a stick to get the weapon, the armor you get by killing a bear (or something), scrape of the goo from the skin and put holes for arms and head.
You don´t craft a H&K G36 and a kevlar body suit as easy or as fast.
Right mechanics for the right game.
Nah .. lots of good games don't punish the players for failure and they can start where they were at. Skyrim, Bioshock, Dead Space, the list goes on and on.
just dying and having to restart is enough. And you can wipe and wipe in hard PvE encounters, or get camped in PvP encounters.
If those are "boring to hell", i fail to see why millions and millions of players are playing them every day. Hint: boring to YOU does not equal boring to others.
I think it only appeals to less than 10% of the population. IMO, it's the type of people who could be declared sociopaths sadists. It sould be great to see a long term study on the personality types who are attracted to this type of game play and use it to identify risky people in society.
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More like sociopaths ruin it for everyone else and otherwise its fine.
More like sociopaths ruin it for everyone else and otherwise its fine.
It's just risk v reward. Nothing more complicated than that.
The problem isn't sociopaths, it's whiners getting attached to their digital penis' and getting butt hurt if they lose.
That's it.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
While waynejr2's comment was a cheap-shot (really sociopaths?) my opinion is that FFA Full-loot pvp is just not feaseable in an MMO. Such a game would require a large amount of crafters, social types, etc (victims) to keep the pvp hardcore types interested (wolves). What always happens is the sheep get tired of being ganked and all you have left is a bunch of wolves running around naked with nothing much to do.
For a FFA PvP game to work, I think the following rules need to be implemented to keep things balanced:
No full loot. You drop whatever items on you that were not equiped. Equiped items go with you when you rez but take damage.
Items needs to have decay. At some point you should not be able to repair an item. This will keep the economy going and crafters with something to do.
Skill based system, no levels or classes.
Players should not be able to gage each others "level of advancement" or any other artificial system to gage how strong another player is. "Humm is that guy gathering mats just some low skill noob or a powerful wizard that can insta fry me with one spell?"
Player built cities and towns. (Ok, that has nothing to do with PvP or full-loot but is on my wish list.)
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
gee and PVPers wonder why others don't want to play with them.
Hahaha, when I was still considering the full loot pvp system for my game instead of focusing on pve Ihad decided:
skill based
no power indicators
item decay
only player made settlements
Basically the same conclusion as you, excepting I did have full loot.
I love full loot pvp. when I try to play other games without it I usually get the itch for it after about a month. When playing other games there really isn't a sense of danger when exploring, mining, or questing. I know a few of my friends that though the same thing as the OP going into a game with full loot pvp and converted we resubbed to darkfall about 4 or 5 times now.
Just a few months ago we sold everything we had and bought several hundred mounts just to spawn for people to grab thinking it was our final farewell. But resubbed again few days ago XD.
I'ts not like the gear is hard to get in a game like darkfall it's pretty easy to get geared up.
This system quickly and effectively removes the "solo" player from the game. While many people may want that to happen, it also ensures the audience is smaller and as is the success of the game. There is nothing wrong with being a niche game though.
Only ultra-hardcore people are typically interested in these games, given the effort involved in building up characters and the possibility of starting certain aspects over from scratch.
I don't think this system is needed to make a good PVP game (land control objectives and rewards beyond silly trinkets/currency can do that effectively), but would agree that it does add a sense of danger to playing, to avoid death/being looted.