How exactly is it the players fault,? it's not like players have any input in the decision making that goes into these games. Players buy games for entertainment not to change the direction of the genre. It's the developers fault for not having the balls to try something different.
I remember talking about SWTOR with my fellow SWG players a few months before launch . I said "I am sure it will be pretty polished and a lot of fun for a month or two but when the quests are all done, what then?"
I still believe I was mostly right on that one.
I would be frankly amazed if you ever found an SWG player willing to say otherwise. Natural enemies.
Your best option of finding a differing opinion would be consulting someone who's still playing it and who doesn't frequent message boards. Someone's still playing the damn thing, half a million someones, I guess.
Planning 4 months of content is definately a problem, especially when it's a developers first MMO.
I only play Darkfall Unholy Wars right now, because it has some features I like. Persistant open world, nothing instanced, along with the harsh death. It's very niche, and I understand that, at least it's different though.
My main problem with most of the big launches recently. Is that in spite of the completely different lore and narrative. They have WoW mechanics, and play just like WoW right down to keybinds. I think the success of WoW is alot more responsible for mediocre games. The guys funding games aren't thinking about unique gameplay, they see the cash flow WoW has.
I've played just about every MMO around (except anime or cutesey ones). I gotta say that all the "fail" "cookie-cutter" MMOs people talk about just isn't true. If you play them like an MMO is supposed to be played, they're all at least decent games, and a few are great. If you play an MMO solo, without saying two words to people, then you don't like it, that's your own fault. MMOs are all about interaction with other players, NPCs, and the environment surrounding you. Too many people in the community are trying to play MMOs like you would a RPG, but they're two totally different genres.
Best way to put it is if you went into an FPS game and tried to play it like an RTS game, it would be the worst gaming experience in your life. You would say to yourself, "What a horrible game, I can't build, upgrade, or train any units! I only get this one guy to control and I can only shoot other people...wow just plain horrible!" I know that's a bit of an extreme view, but it proves the point. Playing MMOs like RPGs just doesn't work.
Ohlen said the BioWare team had expected players to take three to four months to go through the 180 hours of content they'd created. The metrics they were getting informed them the average player was going through the game at 40 hours a week, with some players spending 80-120 hours in the game in a week.
It would be around 14 hours per week or 2 hours per day to go through 180 hours of content in three months. I think it was their fault for overestimating how long that content would last. It's normal for players to spend between 4-8 hours per day with significantly longer play times during the weekend. That's between 28 and 56 hours per week not including extra weekend play. I'm talking about the people that go to school, work and have personal lives outside of the games. Casuals spend less than 4 hours per day gaming on average. The hardcore gamers spend significantly more time gaming than the rest and usually don't have full-time jobs.
You need to consider all kinds of people if you want to be successful. They only considered casuals when doing the math and that's their mistake. Developers shouldn't be so disconnected from reality.
How can you expect to make a successful product when you don't even have a clue about the consumers you're trying to sell it to?
Originally posted by bcbully No it's the players who are willing to buy reskinned old ideas over and over. New message same game. I'm talking about you RIFT, SWTOR, TSW, GW2, Wildstar. Hopefully Wildstar is the last of the retreads
I think it's more than willingness to play re-designs of old traditional approaches to mmos. I think it's even more the unwillingness to play something so different and unique. Look at any brand new game that does anything truly different and you'll see either failed attempts or at best a weaker following. I use TSW as an example. Even though you lump it in with the others I think it went off on a different direction enough that it is pretty unique. Gameplay is similar but not a carbon copy especially with approach to the skills-heavy system vs classes. It has a niche following but not only because it's a different genre ( horror) but because for the traditional mmo player it has a bit of a learning curve and many have been put off by that. I think developers are catering to the masses because they've proven unwilling to try anything truly new.
How exactly is it the players fault,? it's not like players have any input in the decision making that goes into these games. Players buy games for entertainment not to change the direction of the genre. It's the developers fault for not having the balls to try something different.
The few that have tried something different face a smaller following like I said in another reply. Unfortunately, developers work for a living and that means doing what is most likely to make money. Gamers have shown, time and again they don't take well to too much innovation when it comes to their MMOs.
Not the devs fault it is a gamers fault. We all got lumped into the same category and haven't done anything about it. We keep throwing them money so they are happy. All started when we allowed casuals gamers to dictate how games should develop and our refusal to pay high sub fees to pay for having a true MMORPG to exist. Everything is just so dumbed down that they are boing to play, no challenges, no epic content, no gm events, no social network, all made to play selfishly and solo.
Oh don't forget region locks now so I can't play the Asian versions of games that come out and have to play the dumbed down NA version which has always sucked.
Yes lets not push the blame on the white as snow developers i mean it wasn't their decision making that made the games suck was it? yeah you're right it is our fault even though we had no input in the design process.
It's not realistic to lump all gamers / players together. Some may say they want a different sort of MMO, but the majority are apparently fine with the generic WoW F2P MMO. That's where the most revenue comes from, so those are the games that most financers / publishers will hire development studios to build.
Originally posted by nerovipus32 Yes lets not push the blame on the white as snow developers i mean it wasn't their decision making that made the games suck was it? yeah you're right it is our fault even though we had no input in the design process.
Our input comes louder than you think in the form of where we put our hours and money. What games gain the most following are the ones that get paid attention to by developers. They see the trends and go with what they feel is the best way to make money.
How exactly is it the players fault,? it's not like players have any input in the decision making that goes into these games. Players buy games for entertainment not to change the direction of the genre. It's the developers fault for not having the balls to try something different.
Wait, just a few pages back wasn't someone telling us that players were in fact driving every change thru marketing polls? You know, "devs just appeasing the masses" response #13?
You're suggesting they're capable of some independent thought, here.
Free Will or Pre-Determination?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
devs making what major market looking for ;dumbes gameplay,cut scenes,voice acting,solo play,asocial players base,fast lvling, fast shooter mode action ...etc...
real trouble for good quallity MMO,a are players ,most of them are not interested to play good mmo's(only good can to be old scool MMO's before 2005.)
1. How can you base mediocrity? One persons SWToR is anothers Rift.
2. The genre is flooded with choices, and it is way to easy to be lethargic with one game and simply slip to another. At the age and/or beginning of the WoW/EQ era, there were very few choices and we stuck with what we had. Sticking with what you have you meet folks and form a social bond, and it's much harder to move to another game.
3. We are all spoiled and think that every new title released should be a holy grail of games. When it isn't a huge success we press on and complain about it. Imagine if Neverwinter, or even GW2 had released instead of WoW. The holy trinity system may be scoffed at today.
@OP. Since you love numbers try and figure out the saturated genre, and the percent of players to mmorpgs. I'm sure it is not so much the developers problem as the players being spread out and being to picky.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
1. How can you base mediocrity? One persons SWToR is anothers Rift.
2. The genre is flooded with choices, and it is way to easy to be lethargic with one game and simply slip to another.
You're onto the germ of something, anyway.
Players clearly want so many very different things that treating us as one mass is (I assume more will agree?) a very critical mistake.
The complaints? All combine together into one self-reinforcing deposit of black despair. Ugh, got some on my shoe.
But--are the developers really treating us all as one mass, or are we still assuming every new toy will be intended for us, the frowny face and tantrums when some (none, in my case...heh) very clearly are not? Grown-up enough to pass a game clearly not targeted for our specific sub-segment of gamerdom without seething venom at it?
Mea Cupla, I snipe away at Scarlet Blade...oh well, nobody's perfect.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
1. How can you base mediocrity? One persons SWToR is anothers Rift.
2. The genre is flooded with choices, and it is way to easy to be lethargic with one game and simply slip to another.
You're onto the germ of something, anyway.
Players clearly want so many very different things that treating us as one mass is most likely a very critical mistake.
The complaints? All combine together into one self-reinforcing deposit of black despair. Ugh, got some on my shoe.
But--are the developers really treating us all as one mass, or are we still assuming every new toy will be intended for us, the frowny face and tantrums when some (none, in my case...heh) very clearly are not?
QFT
I've always said that the "true" mmo player is a small niche market, games where you spend hours doing menial tasks in order to get one big rewards. There are many types of MMOs, older players won't like the "easy" mode MMOs full of instant gratification. Newer players won't like older delayed gratification MMOs. The only problem I have with developers is they're trying to appease everyone, but in doing so they appease nobody.
1. How can you base mediocrity? One persons SWToR is anothers Rift.
2. The genre is flooded with choices, and it is way to easy to be lethargic with one game and simply slip to another.
You're onto the germ of something, anyway.
Players clearly want so many very different things that treating us as one mass is most likely a very critical mistake.
The complaints? All combine together into one self-reinforcing deposit of black despair. Ugh, got some on my shoe.
But--are the developers really treating us all as one mass, or are we still assuming every new toy will be intended for us, the frowny face and tantrums when some (none, in my case...heh) very clearly are not?
I was raised on foozball, pinball, and the the almighty Pong when it was released. I guess we all need to adjust to change and adjust quickly, because in this age it is pushed through us in a blink. Today we complain about LFG systems in games and tomorrow it may be holographic or virtual meeting places being too crowded. /shrug.
Yes, the despair is here, especially on this site. But imho it isn't due to anything developers have or haven't done right, it's our fault mostly. I can say that I jump from game to game looking for the old days of EQ and Vanilla WoW, but I'm afraid I will never have that giddy, awe inspired feeling again. And that being said is what I think everyone is looking for in a new game, but they have already spent it. You only get one first kiss.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
They are most definitely part of the problem. They lack vision and knowledge on how to give players what they want. They like the quick and easy route a lot better such as creating a mmo with the copy and paste mentality.
I've always said that the "true" mmo player is a small niche market, games where you spend hours doing menial tasks in order to get one big rewards. There are many types of MMOs, older players won't like the "easy" mode MMOs full of instant gratification. Newer players won't like older delayed gratification MMOs. The only problem I have with developers is they're trying to appease everyone, but in doing so they appease nobody.
The good developers focus. They make ARPGs, MOBAs, instanced based PvP games .. and don't try to do everything.
Most of us that have ben around MMOs since their beginning know exactly what the problem is with the genre....The problem is these companies keep making the same type of game over and over and over.....Instead of making a fascinating world and turning the players loose, almost every single MMO released since WoW has been geared towards entertaining the players and putting them on rails......If you look at the games prior to WoW and the games after WoW it is painfully obvious what has happened yet we still keep getting the same thing over and over.
Comments
How exactly is it the players fault,? it's not like players have any input in the decision making that goes into these games. Players buy games for entertainment not to change the direction of the genre. It's the developers fault for not having the balls to try something different.
Lies!!!
Planning 4 months of content is definately a problem, especially when it's a developers first MMO.
I only play Darkfall Unholy Wars right now, because it has some features I like. Persistant open world, nothing instanced, along with the harsh death. It's very niche, and I understand that, at least it's different though.
My main problem with most of the big launches recently. Is that in spite of the completely different lore and narrative. They have WoW mechanics, and play just like WoW right down to keybinds. I think the success of WoW is alot more responsible for mediocre games. The guys funding games aren't thinking about unique gameplay, they see the cash flow WoW has.
It is the developers job to know their audience.
So yes, It is 100% the fault of developers.
You stay sassy!
I've played just about every MMO around (except anime or cutesey ones). I gotta say that all the "fail" "cookie-cutter" MMOs people talk about just isn't true. If you play them like an MMO is supposed to be played, they're all at least decent games, and a few are great. If you play an MMO solo, without saying two words to people, then you don't like it, that's your own fault. MMOs are all about interaction with other players, NPCs, and the environment surrounding you. Too many people in the community are trying to play MMOs like you would a RPG, but they're two totally different genres.
Best way to put it is if you went into an FPS game and tried to play it like an RTS game, it would be the worst gaming experience in your life. You would say to yourself, "What a horrible game, I can't build, upgrade, or train any units! I only get this one guy to control and I can only shoot other people...wow just plain horrible!" I know that's a bit of an extreme view, but it proves the point. Playing MMOs like RPGs just doesn't work.
Ohlen said the BioWare team had expected players to take three to four months to go through the 180 hours of content they'd created. The metrics they were getting informed them the average player was going through the game at 40 hours a week, with some players spending 80-120 hours in the game in a week.
It would be around 14 hours per week or 2 hours per day to go through 180 hours of content in three months. I think it was their fault for overestimating how long that content would last. It's normal for players to spend between 4-8 hours per day with significantly longer play times during the weekend. That's between 28 and 56 hours per week not including extra weekend play. I'm talking about the people that go to school, work and have personal lives outside of the games. Casuals spend less than 4 hours per day gaming on average. The hardcore gamers spend significantly more time gaming than the rest and usually don't have full-time jobs.
You need to consider all kinds of people if you want to be successful. They only considered casuals when doing the math and that's their mistake. Developers shouldn't be so disconnected from reality.
How can you expect to make a successful product when you don't even have a clue about the consumers you're trying to sell it to?
I think it's more than willingness to play re-designs of old traditional approaches to mmos. I think it's even more the unwillingness to play something so different and unique. Look at any brand new game that does anything truly different and you'll see either failed attempts or at best a weaker following. I use TSW as an example. Even though you lump it in with the others I think it went off on a different direction enough that it is pretty unique. Gameplay is similar but not a carbon copy especially with approach to the skills-heavy system vs classes. It has a niche following but not only because it's a different genre ( horror) but because for the traditional mmo player it has a bit of a learning curve and many have been put off by that. I think developers are catering to the masses because they've proven unwilling to try anything truly new.
The few that have tried something different face a smaller following like I said in another reply. Unfortunately, developers work for a living and that means doing what is most likely to make money. Gamers have shown, time and again they don't take well to too much innovation when it comes to their MMOs.
Not the devs fault it is a gamers fault. We all got lumped into the same category and haven't done anything about it. We keep throwing them money so they are happy. All started when we allowed casuals gamers to dictate how games should develop and our refusal to pay high sub fees to pay for having a true MMORPG to exist. Everything is just so dumbed down that they are boing to play, no challenges, no epic content, no gm events, no social network, all made to play selfishly and solo.
Oh don't forget region locks now so I can't play the Asian versions of games that come out and have to play the dumbed down NA version which has always sucked.
Our input comes louder than you think in the form of where we put our hours and money. What games gain the most following are the ones that get paid attention to by developers. They see the trends and go with what they feel is the best way to make money.
Wait, just a few pages back wasn't someone telling us that players were in fact driving every change thru marketing polls? You know, "devs just appeasing the masses" response #13?
You're suggesting they're capable of some independent thought, here.
Free Will or Pre-Determination?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
devs making what major market looking for ;dumbes gameplay,cut scenes,voice acting,solo play,asocial players base,fast lvling, fast shooter mode action ...etc...
real trouble for good quallity MMO,a are players ,most of them are not interested to play good mmo's(only good can to be old scool MMO's before 2005.)
It is not a problem for me. I prefer quality (fun gameplay) to quantity (more content).
In fact, i prefer to play multiple shorter MMO with better content, than one long one.
1. How can you base mediocrity? One persons SWToR is anothers Rift.
2. The genre is flooded with choices, and it is way to easy to be lethargic with one game and simply slip to another. At the age and/or beginning of the WoW/EQ era, there were very few choices and we stuck with what we had. Sticking with what you have you meet folks and form a social bond, and it's much harder to move to another game.
3. We are all spoiled and think that every new title released should be a holy grail of games. When it isn't a huge success we press on and complain about it. Imagine if Neverwinter, or even GW2 had released instead of WoW. The holy trinity system may be scoffed at today.
@OP. Since you love numbers try and figure out the saturated genre, and the percent of players to mmorpgs. I'm sure it is not so much the developers problem as the players being spread out and being to picky.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
You're onto the germ of something, anyway.
Players clearly want so many very different things that treating us as one mass is (I assume more will agree?) a very critical mistake.
The complaints? All combine together into one self-reinforcing deposit of black despair. Ugh, got some on my shoe.
But--are the developers really treating us all as one mass, or are we still assuming every new toy will be intended for us, the frowny face and tantrums when some (none, in my case...heh) very clearly are not? Grown-up enough to pass a game clearly not targeted for our specific sub-segment of gamerdom without seething venom at it?
Mea Cupla, I snipe away at Scarlet Blade...oh well, nobody's perfect.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
QFT
I've always said that the "true" mmo player is a small niche market, games where you spend hours doing menial tasks in order to get one big rewards. There are many types of MMOs, older players won't like the "easy" mode MMOs full of instant gratification. Newer players won't like older delayed gratification MMOs. The only problem I have with developers is they're trying to appease everyone, but in doing so they appease nobody.
In alot of ways yes it's the Devs fault.
The players are also tho. My sig sums that part up.
"Negaholics are people who become addicted to negativity and self-doubt, they find fault in most things and never seem to be satisfied."
^MMORPG.com
I was raised on foozball, pinball, and the the almighty Pong when it was released. I guess we all need to adjust to change and adjust quickly, because in this age it is pushed through us in a blink. Today we complain about LFG systems in games and tomorrow it may be holographic or virtual meeting places being too crowded. /shrug.
Yes, the despair is here, especially on this site. But imho it isn't due to anything developers have or haven't done right, it's our fault mostly. I can say that I jump from game to game looking for the old days of EQ and Vanilla WoW, but I'm afraid I will never have that giddy, awe inspired feeling again. And that being said is what I think everyone is looking for in a new game, but they have already spent it. You only get one first kiss.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
[mod edit]
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The good developers focus. They make ARPGs, MOBAs, instanced based PvP games .. and don't try to do everything.
May be no one should make huge MMORPGs anymore.