1. How can you base mediocrity? One persons SWToR is anothers Rift.
2. The genre is flooded with choices, and it is way to easy to be lethargic with one game and simply slip to another.
You're onto the germ of something, anyway.
Players clearly want so many very different things that treating us as one mass is most likely a very critical mistake.
The complaints? All combine together into one self-reinforcing deposit of black despair. Ugh, got some on my shoe.
But--are the developers really treating us all as one mass, or are we still assuming every new toy will be intended for us, the frowny face and tantrums when some (none, in my case...heh) very clearly are not?
QFT
I've always said that the "true" mmo player is a small niche market, games where you spend hours doing menial tasks in order to get one big rewards.
I do not agree at all that is what a "true" mmo player is.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Theocritus Most of us that have ben around MMOs since their beginning know exactly what the problem is with the genre....The problem is these companies keep making the same type of game over and over and over.....Instead of making a fascinating world and turning the players loose, almost every single MMO released since WoW has been geared towards entertaining the players and putting them on rails......If you look at the games prior to WoW and the games after WoW it is painfully obvious what has happened yet we still keep getting the same thing over and over.
ArcheAge and EQNext will end this problem, but yes, I agree with your points.
Hype doesn't help the problem - why not wait and see. These games are not released yet or even in beta in the US, so we don't know what they are like. Hype, from players, is also a problem.
Originally posted by Theocritus Most of us that have ben around MMOs since their beginning know exactly what the problem is with the genre....The problem is these companies keep making the same type of game over and over and over.....Instead of making a fascinating world and turning the players loose, almost every single MMO released since WoW has been geared towards entertaining the players and putting them on rails......If you look at the games prior to WoW and the games after WoW it is painfully obvious what has happened yet we still keep getting the same thing over and over.
Problem? That i call progress.
Of course games should be geared towards entertaining the players. Do you think games should demand players to live another life full of chores & work?
And what is this nonsense about same type of games. The variety has explored. We have Star Trek MMOs, Modern conspiracy ones, online ARPGs, MOBAs, instanced games, sci-fi, super hero, fantasy, even MMOFPS.
Originally posted by Theocritus Most of us that have ben around MMOs since their beginning know exactly what the problem is with the genre....The problem is these companies keep making the same type of game over and over and over.....Instead of making a fascinating world and turning the players loose, almost every single MMO released since WoW has been geared towards entertaining the players and putting them on rails......If you look at the games prior to WoW and the games after WoW it is painfully obvious what has happened yet we still keep getting the same thing over and over.
ArcheAge and EQNext will end this problem, but yes, I agree with your points.
Hmm, I think not. Sorry. Folks said the same years ago about Age of Conan, Rift, and SWToR.
ArcheAge, EQNext, " insert game here" will never bring back that nostalgic feeling we first got when playing an mmorpg.
It's not the game developers fault. We have grown spoiled. We want a bite of the forbidden fruit as it were, and it isn't there anymore. Most folks revere and talk about DAoC as it was the best game ever! It is still available to play, but they don't. It's still the same game, it just lost the intoxicating feeling of wonder that mmorpgs give at the start.
As long as developers keep making them we will keep looking over the hill for the next best thing. It will more than likely never happen I'm sorry to say.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
This just keeps popping up over and over. The fact it gets debated so heavily when there really is a solid, absolute answer to the question...smh.
Lady Gaga: Who's to blame? Yeah, millions of people bought her music and they are to blame, but they would have never heard of her if the label didn't snatch up some random no-name and back her with million dollar ad campaigns, put millions into the production of her album and bideos and months and months of production and preparation.
Spiderman 3: Dancing symbiote Spidey with musical numbers. Venom was a b*tch. People blew out the box office on the previous two. Why not make another? The message sent by consumers was clear. However, I don't remember anyone asking for a sissy Venom and a broad way act.
Dragon Age 2: Not one person said, gee, this would be better if they used the ME2 engine and completely butchered the combat and strategy of the game.
Nobody asked for the changes that WoW made, aside from nerfs. Nobody told GW2 to make a trinity-less game.
THESE CHOICES WERE MADE BY DEVELOPERS/PRODUCERS OF SAID MEDIAS.
They put millions of dollars and years of time into making these products. HOW THE HELL ARE THEY NOT TO BLAME?
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Most negative changes to the format were made by developers, not by players, and most of them serve to only cut corners and save in development or to widen the market of a game or media by making it sooo simple and watered down that anyone with an IQ of 50 could "get it."
Having experience in the movie making industry as well as the gaming industry, I might be able to provide a different perspective and possibly a little context. This is my personal opinion, and I do not claim it to be the truth, but I do know it is a big issue and potentially a factor in this problem. In most cases, more so today than 10 years ago, it is the player or viewer that is the "problem". Like several people in this thread have said, people will throw money at anyone expecting the best game they've ever played. Many people have unruly expectations because they feel that since they've donated money or bought this game that it will be amazing.
The "money" side of this isn't the real issue though. It is the viewer/player's overly high expectations, and lack of understanding of what it takes to make a video game or movie. People don't show or practice as much empathy as they used to. Trust me, I promise you that if you take a film studies class, or even a beginners programming class at a university you will think highly of movies or games that you didn't necessarily "like" or thought of as "mediocre". I imagine for most gamers, it would take them hours and possibly even days to do the necessary programming for a tic-tac-toe game. You may think that's easy, and for the well practiced programmer it is, but for a beginner or someone who has never programmed a line of code in there life it can be very difficult. On top of that, depending on which language you choose to write it in can have major impacts on how fast you learn it, because some are more complicated and less user friendly than others.
What I'm trying to get at is the gamer of 2013 is a selfish gamer. We want more and more and better and better features, when in actuality it is first of all difficult to conceptualize something new or innovative in this day and age, and then translating that idea into code can be just as difficult and sometimes more. There are so many layers and sub-layers and sub-sub-layers to making an mmo, that no one person can do it alone.
For anyone who is honestly claiming that there are mediocre or bad mmos being produced on a yearly basis need push their expectations and arrogance to the side and leave it there. Don't get me wrong, there are mmos that are better than others, but there is a huge difference between sloppiness and mediocrity. The people on this thread claiming that games such as SWTOR or GW2 or WoW are mediocre games are completely full of themselves and need to get off their high horse. I for one think GW2 is very boring, but to say that it is a bad game just because I don't like it or aspects or features in the game is brash, selfish, and pompous. Gamers try to make it all about them, but it isn't. The future of gaming doesn't lie with the devs, but the players.
There is one final thing I need to mention and then I'll be done with my rant. Many gamers feel that because they buy or back a game their opinions automatically matter, but that is not always the case, especially when it is negative constructive criticism.
ArcheAge, EQNext, " insert game here" will never bring back that nostalgic feeling we first got when playing an mmorpg.
i hope not. First MMOs i played (UO & EQ) are horrible games.
OK. So you're just trolling. Thanks for dropping the ball with that statement.
How is he trolling? I thought UO, EQ and even...yes...SWG...were so mind numbingly boring (only three "old" MMOs I tried), that I just stuck with other genres. WoW was my first MMO I ever got into and I played for years. It was a great change to the genre.
Just because he (and I) thought old MMOs were horrible, doesn't mean its trolling.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
So many people pointing figures at everything BUT one of the main problems. US. Look in the mirror, you're part of the problem.
Every business is trying to make money. Why do they keep making the same old crap? Because WE keep buying it. We're the ones who made Diablo III one of the highest selling games of all time. We're the ones who keep screaming for 'different kinds of MMOs' only to complain when they aren't linear, gear-grinders.
It is a mistake to view MMO gamers as one demographic, but at the same we almost have to be. In order for an MMO to be success it HAS to attract a large number of players. On the one hand we are getting some variety in our MMOs, we have RPGs, Sci-Fi, Shooters, Space sims, etc. But on the other.. they're all incredibly linear gear grinders.
It's a sad thing to see, but the majority of gamers seem to want to 'feel' like they're playing something new, but actually just want to play more of the same. It's not a new phenomina, but at a certain points you run out of ways to trick a person into believing they're experiencing something new. At that point both the person making the games AND the people playing them have to travel down a new, less certain path together.
ArcheAge, EQNext, " insert game here" will never bring back that nostalgic feeling we first got when playing an mmorpg.
i hope not. First MMOs i played (UO & EQ) are horrible games.
OK. So you're just trolling. Thanks for dropping the ball with that statement.
How is he trolling? I thought UO, EQ and even...yes...SWG...were so mind numbingly boring (only three "old" MMOs I tried), that I just stuck with other genres. WoW was my first MMO I ever got into and I played for years. It was a great change to the genre.
Just because he (and I) thought old MMOs were horrible, doesn't mean its trolling.
I wouldn't call them horrible, but I would agree that many people look back at those old games with rose-colored glasses. I still believe that if most of those games were to reskin & get re-released today, they wouldn't be successful. Even if they released under the same name.
I don't think people realize just how much the MMO climate has changed in the passed 10-15 years.
its a combination .. its a grey area .. everything is.
what I think there needs to be is a divide. devs need to be more honest with the players.
if you are going for the casual, the current angle is fine but call it that. don't tack 20 man raids onto a game that is 95% about solo content. come up with long lasting solo endgame content of some kind.
if you are going for hardcore, don't make 0-60 a solo experience.
target an audience.
this will all fall on def ears though as long as we keep buying the boxes.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
as a self reflected person I love to think a lot and to play around with numbers. For quite a few years, tons of topics show up stating that most of todays MMOs are mediocre at best and that the developers did not offer enough content. Please, do not misunderstand me. I love gaming and MMOs, but I believe that it is important to have at least some sort of balance. Not only work life balance. An overall balance helping us to enjoy our life. Enough said, I present you an interesting quotation of an interview with James Ohlen, Senior Creative Director for SWTOR.
A week has got 168 hours. Most people tend to use 33% of that time to sleep (8h per day). After sleeping you take a shower and have a coffe which makes 4% (1hour per day). Driving to work takes roughly 2% (30minutes). Approx 23% of the overall time is work time (25% if you have a 30 minutes lunch break.). Let us be fair and add 1 hour for shopping and other stuff that needs to be handled. Plus 4%. Dinner? We live in a fast living world, so we add up 2% (30minutes). Now, count everything together: That makes 70%.
Taking the numbers of James Ohlen, a player investing ...
... 21 hours (12,5%) (3h per day) per week to play reaches 82,5%
... 40 hours (23%) per week to play reaches 93%
... 80 hours (47%) per week to play reaches 117%
... 120 hours (66%) per week to play reaches 136%
... and we did not count in meeting and socializing with friends, shopping, or doing anything else besides playing an online game.
Now I'm asking you:
What do you think? Are developers and publishers the reason why the last major MMO releases were not accepted by many players, or do certain players due to their way of life cause a lot of rant that leads to public rejection of a game?
Nice write up, I think that its a combo of everything. If you wanted to fix one things you could start with the publishers and Distributor(s), these guys should have NOTHING to say about the developmental stages of the game they shouldnt even talk to each other they should have some kind of mediator. Often more then not the distributors and publishers want something that will help them on their end of selling the game, that can lead to them bugging the dev's to add this or take away that.
Lets us SWG for example because they are the classic case of what NOT to do when it comes to those three entities. SWG started out really well with a large fanbase because of the IP, SONY ET (publisher and distributor) felt they could corner the market if they changed this and that, some where along the lines a CEO listen and made it happen by telling the dev's what to do. As we all know SWG died because of their greed, If you make the publisher work with what they are handed and dont let them influence the dev's then you will ALWAYS have quality product.
Originally posted by Joejc7135 From my view it's quite simple...If gamers don't want mediocre mmos they need to stop buying them. That will rectify the problem.
Players are doing that; WOW is declining and most WOW clones are DOA. Just the devs or marketing folks are slow on the uptake.
Which MMOs are you referring to? Most of the pre-order and release sales for MMOs do extremely well, the two most recent being that SWTOR heap of crap and GW2.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
ArcheAge, EQNext, " insert game here" will never bring back that nostalgic feeling we first got when playing an mmorpg.
i hope not. First MMOs i played (UO & EQ) are horrible games.
OK. So you're just trolling. Thanks for dropping the ball with that statement.
How is he trolling? I thought UO, EQ and even...yes...SWG...were so mind numbingly boring (only three "old" MMOs I tried), that I just stuck with other genres. WoW was my first MMO I ever got into and I played for years. It was a great change to the genre.
Just because he (and I) thought old MMOs were horrible, doesn't mean its trolling.
If you weren't playing them during their prime I can understand. Going back to play them now could be pretty rough after playing newer MMOs. At the time those games were masterpieces, and are the inspiration of any MMO you play today, especially EQ.
I don't think anyone is saying that players aren't partially to blame, but to say that developers aren't at least partly to blame, or to deny that any media industry doesn't engineer their own trends, or that they can't in fact decide to a certain level what is "popular" is ignorant beyond description. Honestly, it makes me sad that people are so self loathing now a days that they will buy excuses like, "It was bad spending habits, not the banks." & "It's not the developers, it's us."
And hearing these cop-outs from supposed "industry insiders" all the time (in the hypothetical chance they're not completely full of crap) makes me think that these people just don't understand a MMO. They might understand the small piece they were given to develop, but it's obvious that whoever is calling the shots is asleep at the wheel, at least as far as creativity goes. They are making more money than we can imagine though, so good for them.
Games didn't used to have end game.
"Oh, but nobody wants that EQ style level grind."
How the hell would we know, it's been 10 years since someone has made a game comparable to EQ. (DAoC)
I think you could literally replicate the old format with modern graphics and snag up most of us old schoolers.
Publishers don't give money to developers that want to build an MMO. They ask for a WOW. SE's new final fantasy MMO is proof enough that originality is dead.
This brings to light one of the reasons MMO's don't do well in North America. Most people work 50 hrs a week minimum, they don't have the time for play.
It's the curious logic that makes free MMO's the current theme. So many Americans are unemployed, they have time to play, they just can't afford to do much while in the games. When things pick up and they will, the games are hoping they have created a patron base that can afford to spend.
ArcheAge and EQNext will end this problem, but yes, I agree with your points.
Magic bunnies and fairy dust.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Publishers don't give money to developers that want to build an MMO. They ask for a WOW. SE's new final fantasy MMO is proof enough that originality is dead.
Just curious here; would expectation of originality (from a sequel) be terribly reasonable?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think you could literally replicate the old format with modern graphics and snag up most of us old schoolers.
Why do you need modern graphics?
That's the worst kind of gamers dealing from the bottom of the deck (imo), because you know EQ in 2013 is significantly different than in 2000 (see: the WoW boys pining for Vanilla), and you know the magic won't really be coming back, even if you do. And why did you leave in the first place? Purely graphic gripes?
The 2000 game probably isn't recoverable, even from backup tapes (depending on storage). Devs wouldn't be eager to get old code back, I imagine. But assume that it was possible.
Like the WoW Vanilla fans (or DAoC Classic or whoever), what you really want is updated graphics, a completely fixed bug list, and pick-and-choose which game updates to keep and which to discard. Uhoh, what if the "true" fans don't all agree? And all of your buds to come back, of course. Game just wouldn't be the same without em. Might want to pick and choose modern hardware too, and veto choice over the other gamers allowed in.
And of course the you of 13 years ago...uh oh, that one might be a bit harder to wish back.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
You need to understand something first. When you make an MMO a DEVELOPER almost ALWAYS working under a PUBLISHER. Now publishers don't like to lose 60-100 millions dollars just because you have a great new idea. So developers try to fit as many of their new ideas into the game while still retaining something that will make the suits in the company not scared of losing all their money.
Imagine your friend walked upto you told you "I have a great game idea and I will need 80 million to make it"
What would be your first questions? Are you sure people will play it? Are you sure you've got enough idea of what will happen?
I would say that if you were a publisher you'd be doing the exact same thing that ours are doing. Trying not to lose millions of dollars on a project which will fail because there was no clarity.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
I don't think anyone is saying that players aren't partially to blame, but to say that developers aren't at least partly to blame, or to deny that any media industry doesn't engineer their own trends, or that they can't in fact decide to a certain level what is "popular" is ignorant beyond description. Honestly, it makes me sad that people are so self loathing now a days that they will buy excuses like, "It was bad spending habits, not the banks." & "It's not the developers, it's us."
It's equally ignorant to put most of the blame on developers, and next to none on the players. How many people here have consistantly complained about games they've pre-ordered? Or how many times have we seen people complain that 'all MMOs are like WoW' followed by complaints that 'current MMOs don't have enough raiding or loot progression'. The irony is palpable. Sure developers can engineer their own trends, so can publishers. So can any creative business, but it's always a risk. It's up to us (the consumers) to buy into that trend and make it real. Most trends work because people are largely predictable and unwilling to enact significant change. Sure some companies exploit this, but the blame goes both ways. Who's at fault? The wolf for eating the deer? Or the deer for not checking it's surroundings?
And hearing these cop-outs from supposed "industry insiders" all the time (in the hypothetical chance they're not completely full of crap) makes me think that these people just don't understand a MMO. They might understand the small piece they were given to develop, but it's obvious that whoever is calling the shots is asleep at the wheel, at least as far as creativity goes. They are making more money than we can imagine though, so good for them.
I'd be careful about painting people with such a broad stroke. While there are definitely 'insiders' who are full of crap (often times due to not doing any real follow-ups or research), there are pleanty that actually do understand how MMOs work; probably a hell of a lot more than you do. Unless you've worked on an MMO, had to deal w/ publishers & public reactions, it's very hard to fully understand what really goes on. For example, for each situation where a lead designer makes a bad call, there's another of a producer making one, or forcing a designer to implement a stupid decision, or a forced statement to ease PR, etc.
One of the most obvious cases of a publisher making stupid decisions is EA. However, there are a lot more games where there's a lot of grey area. It's often not easy to tell who really made the call. Only who's in the public view for the blame.
Games didn't used to have end game.
"Oh, but nobody wants that EQ style level grind."
How the hell would we know, it's been 10 years since someone has made a game comparable to EQ. (DAoC)
I think you could literally replicate the old format with modern graphics and snag up most of us old schoolers.
Problem with this assumption is the following:
1) EQ2 / Vanguard actually came out less than 10 years ago. There's also been other games since then that have a mix between quests & mob spawn camping (one example being TERA). Each game has been less popular than the one before it. WoW killed most of the market for that type of MMO. Not only do most people not have enough time for it anymore, but many gamers don't have the patience either.
2) Even if you are right, and it manages to snag up most of the old schoolers, that's still only a few 100,000 people. Even if a company did literally nothing but take EQ1, all the same content, and reskin it to have modern graphics; it would still be extremely expensive. It would require updates to the game engine, an art team, a publisher, etc. It's not cheap. Any sane company would want a bigger guaruntee than 'maybe 2-300,000 people'.
One thing I think a lot of people forget is that most of the MMOs out today, were started ~6-7 years ago (some even longer). That's close to a decade in the making, and we're complaining that today's games aren't enough like games 10 years ago. Do the math. Any of these developers making a new MMO have to make a pretty risky prediction of where the market will be 5-7 years from now. If they get it wrong (which is insanely easy to do), they get ridiculed for it. How many predicitions 10 years into the future have you gotten correct?
Comments
I do not agree at all that is what a "true" mmo player is.
Hype doesn't help the problem - why not wait and see. These games are not released yet or even in beta in the US, so we don't know what they are like. Hype, from players, is also a problem.
Problem? That i call progress.
Of course games should be geared towards entertaining the players. Do you think games should demand players to live another life full of chores & work?
And what is this nonsense about same type of games. The variety has explored. We have Star Trek MMOs, Modern conspiracy ones, online ARPGs, MOBAs, instanced games, sci-fi, super hero, fantasy, even MMOFPS.
Hmm, I think not. Sorry. Folks said the same years ago about Age of Conan, Rift, and SWToR.
ArcheAge, EQNext, " insert game here" will never bring back that nostalgic feeling we first got when playing an mmorpg.
It's not the game developers fault. We have grown spoiled. We want a bite of the forbidden fruit as it were, and it isn't there anymore. Most folks revere and talk about DAoC as it was the best game ever! It is still available to play, but they don't. It's still the same game, it just lost the intoxicating feeling of wonder that mmorpgs give at the start.
As long as developers keep making them we will keep looking over the hill for the next best thing. It will more than likely never happen I'm sorry to say.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
i hope not. First MMOs i played (UO & EQ) are horrible games.
This just keeps popping up over and over. The fact it gets debated so heavily when there really is a solid, absolute answer to the question...smh.
Lady Gaga: Who's to blame? Yeah, millions of people bought her music and they are to blame, but they would have never heard of her if the label didn't snatch up some random no-name and back her with million dollar ad campaigns, put millions into the production of her album and bideos and months and months of production and preparation.
Spiderman 3: Dancing symbiote Spidey with musical numbers. Venom was a b*tch. People blew out the box office on the previous two. Why not make another? The message sent by consumers was clear. However, I don't remember anyone asking for a sissy Venom and a broad way act.
Dragon Age 2: Not one person said, gee, this would be better if they used the ME2 engine and completely butchered the combat and strategy of the game.
Nobody asked for the changes that WoW made, aside from nerfs. Nobody told GW2 to make a trinity-less game.
THESE CHOICES WERE MADE BY DEVELOPERS/PRODUCERS OF SAID MEDIAS.
They put millions of dollars and years of time into making these products. HOW THE HELL ARE THEY NOT TO BLAME?
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Most negative changes to the format were made by developers, not by players, and most of them serve to only cut corners and save in development or to widen the market of a game or media by making it sooo simple and watered down that anyone with an IQ of 50 could "get it."
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
OK. So you're just trolling. Thanks for dropping the ball with that statement.
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
Having experience in the movie making industry as well as the gaming industry, I might be able to provide a different perspective and possibly a little context. This is my personal opinion, and I do not claim it to be the truth, but I do know it is a big issue and potentially a factor in this problem. In most cases, more so today than 10 years ago, it is the player or viewer that is the "problem". Like several people in this thread have said, people will throw money at anyone expecting the best game they've ever played. Many people have unruly expectations because they feel that since they've donated money or bought this game that it will be amazing.
The "money" side of this isn't the real issue though. It is the viewer/player's overly high expectations, and lack of understanding of what it takes to make a video game or movie. People don't show or practice as much empathy as they used to. Trust me, I promise you that if you take a film studies class, or even a beginners programming class at a university you will think highly of movies or games that you didn't necessarily "like" or thought of as "mediocre". I imagine for most gamers, it would take them hours and possibly even days to do the necessary programming for a tic-tac-toe game. You may think that's easy, and for the well practiced programmer it is, but for a beginner or someone who has never programmed a line of code in there life it can be very difficult. On top of that, depending on which language you choose to write it in can have major impacts on how fast you learn it, because some are more complicated and less user friendly than others.
What I'm trying to get at is the gamer of 2013 is a selfish gamer. We want more and more and better and better features, when in actuality it is first of all difficult to conceptualize something new or innovative in this day and age, and then translating that idea into code can be just as difficult and sometimes more. There are so many layers and sub-layers and sub-sub-layers to making an mmo, that no one person can do it alone.
For anyone who is honestly claiming that there are mediocre or bad mmos being produced on a yearly basis need push their expectations and arrogance to the side and leave it there. Don't get me wrong, there are mmos that are better than others, but there is a huge difference between sloppiness and mediocrity. The people on this thread claiming that games such as SWTOR or GW2 or WoW are mediocre games are completely full of themselves and need to get off their high horse. I for one think GW2 is very boring, but to say that it is a bad game just because I don't like it or aspects or features in the game is brash, selfish, and pompous. Gamers try to make it all about them, but it isn't. The future of gaming doesn't lie with the devs, but the players.
There is one final thing I need to mention and then I'll be done with my rant. Many gamers feel that because they buy or back a game their opinions automatically matter, but that is not always the case, especially when it is negative constructive criticism.
How is he trolling? I thought UO, EQ and even...yes...SWG...were so mind numbingly boring (only three "old" MMOs I tried), that I just stuck with other genres. WoW was my first MMO I ever got into and I played for years. It was a great change to the genre.
Just because he (and I) thought old MMOs were horrible, doesn't mean its trolling.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
So many people pointing figures at everything BUT one of the main problems. US. Look in the mirror, you're part of the problem.
Every business is trying to make money. Why do they keep making the same old crap? Because WE keep buying it. We're the ones who made Diablo III one of the highest selling games of all time. We're the ones who keep screaming for 'different kinds of MMOs' only to complain when they aren't linear, gear-grinders.
It is a mistake to view MMO gamers as one demographic, but at the same we almost have to be. In order for an MMO to be success it HAS to attract a large number of players. On the one hand we are getting some variety in our MMOs, we have RPGs, Sci-Fi, Shooters, Space sims, etc. But on the other.. they're all incredibly linear gear grinders.
It's a sad thing to see, but the majority of gamers seem to want to 'feel' like they're playing something new, but actually just want to play more of the same. It's not a new phenomina, but at a certain points you run out of ways to trick a person into believing they're experiencing something new. At that point both the person making the games AND the people playing them have to travel down a new, less certain path together.
I wouldn't call them horrible, but I would agree that many people look back at those old games with rose-colored glasses. I still believe that if most of those games were to reskin & get re-released today, they wouldn't be successful. Even if they released under the same name.
I don't think people realize just how much the MMO climate has changed in the passed 10-15 years.
its a combination .. its a grey area .. everything is.
what I think there needs to be is a divide. devs need to be more honest with the players.
if you are going for the casual, the current angle is fine but call it that. don't tack 20 man raids onto a game that is 95% about solo content. come up with long lasting solo endgame content of some kind.
if you are going for hardcore, don't make 0-60 a solo experience.
target an audience.
this will all fall on def ears though as long as we keep buying the boxes.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Nice write up, I think that its a combo of everything. If you wanted to fix one things you could start with the publishers and Distributor(s), these guys should have NOTHING to say about the developmental stages of the game they shouldnt even talk to each other they should have some kind of mediator. Often more then not the distributors and publishers want something that will help them on their end of selling the game, that can lead to them bugging the dev's to add this or take away that.
Lets us SWG for example because they are the classic case of what NOT to do when it comes to those three entities. SWG started out really well with a large fanbase because of the IP, SONY ET (publisher and distributor) felt they could corner the market if they changed this and that, some where along the lines a CEO listen and made it happen by telling the dev's what to do. As we all know SWG died because of their greed, If you make the publisher work with what they are handed and dont let them influence the dev's then you will ALWAYS have quality product.
Which MMOs are you referring to? Most of the pre-order and release sales for MMOs do extremely well, the two most recent being that SWTOR heap of crap and GW2.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If you weren't playing them during their prime I can understand. Going back to play them now could be pretty rough after playing newer MMOs. At the time those games were masterpieces, and are the inspiration of any MMO you play today, especially EQ.
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
I don't think anyone is saying that players aren't partially to blame, but to say that developers aren't at least partly to blame, or to deny that any media industry doesn't engineer their own trends, or that they can't in fact decide to a certain level what is "popular" is ignorant beyond description. Honestly, it makes me sad that people are so self loathing now a days that they will buy excuses like, "It was bad spending habits, not the banks." & "It's not the developers, it's us."
And hearing these cop-outs from supposed "industry insiders" all the time (in the hypothetical chance they're not completely full of crap) makes me think that these people just don't understand a MMO. They might understand the small piece they were given to develop, but it's obvious that whoever is calling the shots is asleep at the wheel, at least as far as creativity goes. They are making more money than we can imagine though, so good for them.
Games didn't used to have end game.
"Oh, but nobody wants that EQ style level grind."
How the hell would we know, it's been 10 years since someone has made a game comparable to EQ. (DAoC)
I think you could literally replicate the old format with modern graphics and snag up most of us old schoolers.
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
Publishers don't give money to developers that want to build an MMO. They ask for a WOW. SE's new final fantasy MMO is proof enough that originality is dead.
This brings to light one of the reasons MMO's don't do well in North America. Most people work 50 hrs a week minimum, they don't have the time for play.
It's the curious logic that makes free MMO's the current theme. So many Americans are unemployed, they have time to play, they just can't afford to do much while in the games. When things pick up and they will, the games are hoping they have created a patron base that can afford to spend.
Magic bunnies and fairy dust.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Just curious here; would expectation of originality (from a sequel) be terribly reasonable?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Why do you need modern graphics?
That's the worst kind of gamers dealing from the bottom of the deck (imo), because you know EQ in 2013 is significantly different than in 2000 (see: the WoW boys pining for Vanilla), and you know the magic won't really be coming back, even if you do. And why did you leave in the first place? Purely graphic gripes?
The 2000 game probably isn't recoverable, even from backup tapes (depending on storage). Devs wouldn't be eager to get old code back, I imagine. But assume that it was possible.
Like the WoW Vanilla fans (or DAoC Classic or whoever), what you really want is updated graphics, a completely fixed bug list, and pick-and-choose which game updates to keep and which to discard. Uhoh, what if the "true" fans don't all agree? And all of your buds to come back, of course. Game just wouldn't be the same without em. Might want to pick and choose modern hardware too, and veto choice over the other gamers allowed in.
And of course the you of 13 years ago...uh oh, that one might be a bit harder to wish back.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
You need to understand something first. When you make an MMO a DEVELOPER almost ALWAYS working under a PUBLISHER. Now publishers don't like to lose 60-100 millions dollars just because you have a great new idea. So developers try to fit as many of their new ideas into the game while still retaining something that will make the suits in the company not scared of losing all their money.
Imagine your friend walked upto you told you "I have a great game idea and I will need 80 million to make it"
What would be your first questions? Are you sure people will play it? Are you sure you've got enough idea of what will happen?
I would say that if you were a publisher you'd be doing the exact same thing that ours are doing. Trying not to lose millions of dollars on a project which will fail because there was no clarity.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
One thing I think a lot of people forget is that most of the MMOs out today, were started ~6-7 years ago (some even longer). That's close to a decade in the making, and we're complaining that today's games aren't enough like games 10 years ago. Do the math. Any of these developers making a new MMO have to make a pretty risky prediction of where the market will be 5-7 years from now. If they get it wrong (which is insanely easy to do), they get ridiculed for it. How many predicitions 10 years into the future have you gotten correct?