Originally posted by LittleBoot There are many who would agree with you, and I am one of them.
And many who would not. I am one of them!
I don't really need people to agree with the points I made; I didn't make this thread with the intent of forcing people who like the game to hate the game. Just offered up my impressions that apparently a decent bit of people felt the same. So there ya have it. Enjoy your cup of tea.
The 'I agree with you' is about as useful as the 'I don't agree with you'. It's like a +1/-1 system.
Unless you made this post JUST to get people to agree with you, and there's a word for that sort of topic.
Not sure if you're being ignorant, naive or childish but whatever the issue is the point was this thread wasn't to change peoples minds who like the game. Was to offer my impressions on a couple aspects that bothered me. Get over it.
Originally posted by LittleBoot There are many who would agree with you, and I am one of them.
And many who would not. I am one of them!
I don't really need people to agree with the points I made; I didn't make this thread with the intent of forcing people who like the game to hate the game. Just offered up my impressions that apparently a decent bit of people felt the same. So there ya have it. Enjoy your cup of tea.
The 'I agree with you' is about as useful as the 'I don't agree with you'. It's like a +1/-1 system.
Unless you made this post JUST to get people to agree with you, and there's a word for that sort of topic.
Not sure if you're being ignorant, naive or childish but whatever the issue is the point was this thread wasn't to change peoples minds who like the game. Was to offer my impressions on a couple aspects that bothered me. Get over it.
Are you certain of that? Your description of the combat makes it sound like you don't even play the game to be honest. But... then again... you're only at level 65, is that correct? So you're not doing higher level content that requires more intricacies than open world PvE (true of any game). You're not running Fractals, level 80 dungeons, probably not even involved in any quasi-serious WvW, so you've never had to actually put some thought and effort into what you're doing in combat (same as most every game, really) as of yet. No thought into builds, tactics, observing the overall fight and reacting to what others are doing as well as yourself, etc.
I'm going to make a little admission here... when I first started (back before the first official beta actually) at first, for a couple levels at least, I was having a hard time liking the combat. It was... different... in ways I wasn't yet comfortable with. (Plus things were tuned a lot harder in the open world. A LOT harder!) It took a bit to get the feel of the flow, to learn to watch for telegraphing, to dodge at the right times, etc. But now... man, I can't go back to the archaic trinity style rotation based combat of old. Too static. Too thoughtless. So it could simply be that you need to experience the combat at max level when you've put some thought into it and put yourself in an environment where you need to actually use all your abilities to the best you can.
If you ever want to give a good WvW guild a try, on JQ look up Strike Force (SF). It is not the combat (or the WvW) you're used to.
Originally posted by LittleBoot There are many who would agree with you, and I am one of them.
And many who would not. I am one of them!
I don't really need people to agree with the points I made; I didn't make this thread with the intent of forcing people who like the game to hate the game. Just offered up my impressions that apparently a decent bit of people felt the same. So there ya have it. Enjoy your cup of tea.
The 'I agree with you' is about as useful as the 'I don't agree with you'. It's like a +1/-1 system.
Unless you made this post JUST to get people to agree with you, and there's a word for that sort of topic.
Not sure if you're being ignorant, naive or childish but whatever the issue is the point was this thread wasn't to change peoples minds who like the game. Was to offer my impressions on a couple aspects that bothered me. Get over it.
Are you certain of that? Your description of the combat makes it sound like you don't even play the game to be honest. But... then again... you're only at level 65, is that correct? So you're not doing higher level content that requires more intricacies than open world PvE (true of any game). You're not running Fractals, level 80 dungeons, probably not even involved in any quasi-serious WvW, so you've never had to actually put some thought and effort into what you're doing in combat (same as most every game, really) as of yet. No thought into builds, tactics, observing the overall fight and reacting to what others are doing as well as yourself, etc.
I'm going to make a little admission here... when I first started (back before the first official beta actually) at first, for a couple levels at least, I was having a hard time liking the combat. It was... different... in ways I wasn't yet comfortable with. (Plus things were tuned a lot harder in the open world. A LOT harder!) It took a bit to get the feel of the flow, to learn to watch for telegraphing, to dodge at the right times, etc. But now... man, I can't go back to the archaic trinity style rotation based combat of old. Too static. Too thoughtless. So it could simply be that you need to experience the combat at max level when you've put some thought into it and put yourself in an environment where you need to actually use all your abilities to the best you can.
If you ever want to give a good WvW guild a try, on JQ look up Strike Force (SF). It is not the combat (or the WvW) you're used to.
Well I'm 80 now on my Guardian, I'll check some things out.
Well I'm 80 now on my Guardian, I'll check some things out.
Ah, now THAT'S good news indeed! You'll find guardians to be rather popular, especially on the WvW scene. I've dusted mine off again and am having fun with staff/hammer personally. Hammer 4 is the best skill in the game, by the way. Get an enemy downed near the top of a cliff, hit four, then count the hang time you get. It's giggle worthy.
Ah, now THAT'S good news indeed! You'll find guardians to be rather popular, especially on the WvW scene. I've dusted mine off again and am having fun with staff/hammer personally. Hammer 4 is the best skill in the game, by the way. Get an enemy downed near the top of a cliff, hit four, then count the hang time you get. It's giggle worthy.
Off Topic: Hammer 4, Fire Sword 4, Ice Bow 4... hmm Anet and the number 4...
now: GW2 (11 80s). Dark Souls 2. future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord. "Bro, do your even fractal?" Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
The 'I agree with you' is about as useful as the 'I don't agree with you'. It's like a +1/-1 system.
Unless you made this post JUST to get people to agree with you, and there's a word for that sort of topic.
Not sure if you're being ignorant, naive or childish but whatever the issue is the point was this thread wasn't to change peoples minds who like the game. Was to offer my impressions on a couple aspects that bothered me. Get over it.
? All I was saying that the comments that exist solely of 'i agree with you' are about as useful as the ones that consist of just 'I don't agree with you'.
They're just simply people doing a +1/-1, responding to you with their own vote.
Lots of people said 'Oh, I agree with you' in a pointless fashion, but you didn't bother to respond to them, but somebody saying 'Oh I don't agree with him', you think it's particularly pointless and need to jump on and respond to that?
I see. So the whole point to the thread is to post your observations and then get people to agree with you.
Yeah. Definitely a name for that sort of thread.
edit: You still don't know how combat works. I'd respect the thread a little more if you'd at least admit you were wrong when you said 'Other then that it is tab targeting other than the auto swing which for melee can miss and for ranged casters is a guaranteed hit without a LoS.' (A direct quote from the first page). Sidestepping projectiles is incredibly useful.
edit: You still don't know how combat works. I'd respect the thread a little more if you'd at least admit you were wrong when you said 'Other then that it is tab targeting other than the auto swing which for melee can miss and for ranged casters is a guaranteed hit without a LoS.' (A direct quote from the first page). Sidestepping projectiles is incredibly useful.
A little video I like to keep bookmarked.
Many MMORPGs that are running today share so much of those combat features...
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Many MMORPGs that are running today share so much of those combat features...
Thanks for the video. I remember watching this before, but i didn't add it to my favorites. I've been trying to find it for months now, so i could show someone the differences between most MMO's combat and GW2's combat.
This is also why i questioned the OP's claim that, "but I've seen my fair share of attacks do 180 degree curves to hit me even though I roll", which isn't correct, unless there was some sort of lag client-side or server-side.
edit: You still don't know how combat works. I'd respect the thread a little more if you'd at least admit you were wrong when you said 'Other then that it is tab targeting other than the auto swing which for melee can miss and for ranged casters is a guaranteed hit without a LoS.' (A direct quote from the first page). Sidestepping projectiles is incredibly useful.
A little video I like to keep bookmarked.
Many MMORPGs that are running today share so much of those combat features...
I think that video totally misrepresents combat in WoW. The system is the way it is by design. It's not "broken" and doesn't need to be fixed. The combat action in GW2 is by design and ins't broken and doesn't need to be fixed either. But the systems are apples and oranges. GW2 combat is fully developed early on in the game. So basically in that video, combat in GW2 is for the most part the same as it will be at 80. Not the case for WoW, using low level combat in WoW as compared to the fully developed combat in GW2 is really biased and questionable.
The reasons for homing projectiles is because the hit had already been calculated before the animation took place. The math is done differently in GW2. So like I said, it's not broken.
Try comparing the combat sequences from endgame raiding. It gets pretty hectic keeping up with your rotations and priorities. It is actually pretty difficult until you practice and get a feel for your class. To add GW2 mechanics in the way this video implies would "fix" WoW's combat would not work.
Also, there is no mention of any weakness in GW2's system. Or is that perfect? I liked it, but I didn't think it was perfect.
A biased video like that is really transparent and was just meant to portray WoW in a bad light.
edit: You still don't know how combat works. I'd respect the thread a little more if you'd at least admit you were wrong when you said 'Other then that it is tab targeting other than the auto swing which for melee can miss and for ranged casters is a guaranteed hit without a LoS.' (A direct quote from the first page). Sidestepping projectiles is incredibly useful.
A little video I like to keep bookmarked.
Many MMORPGs that are running today share so much of those combat features...
I think that video totally misrepresents combat in WoW. The system is the way it is be design. It's not "broken" to be fixed. The combat action in GW2 is by design and ins't broken and needs to be fixed either. But the systems are apples and oranges. GW2 combat is fully developed early on in the game. So basically in that video, combat in GW2 is for the most part the same as it will be at 80. Not the case for WoW, using low level combat in WoW as compared to the fully developed combat in GW2 is really biased and questionable.
The reasons for homing projectiles is because the hit had already been calculated before the animation took place. The math is done differently in GW2. So like I said, it's not broken.
Try comparing the combat sequences from endgame raiding. It gets pretty hectic keeping up with your rotations and priorities. It is actually pretty difficult until you practice and get a feel for your class. To add GW2 mechanics in the way this video implies would "fix" WoW's combat would not work.
Also, there is no mention of any weakness in GW2's system. Or is that perfect? I liked it, but I didn't think it was perfect.
A biased video like that is really transparent and was just meant to portray WoW in a bad light.
I had to laugh at that video, and anyone who would actually eat up the propaganda from it. WoW combat is extremely fast-paced when it wants to be, and as you mentioned some low level running around auto attacking is not going to accurately represent WoW combat.
Also gw2 often can give the illusion of faster paced combat cause of the movement while casting, but the problem there is, not all the movement while casting is efficient, it's just there to be there. WoW has a much deeper skill system and when you fight other players for example, you are fighting with many more layers of strategy, because everyone has 20-40 abilities they can be using that are relevant to pvp, almost all of which have some serious added effects to what they do after they've been used.
I personally prefer the feel of gw2's combat, but i prefer the depth of wow's combat. Neither does any of it perfectly though.
First im not playing anymore and i quit becouse of how game changed into ezmode spoonfed casual themepark(from second beta weekend they already changed the difficulty of mobs made it alot easyer un acceptable for me).
Community came from some well known other themeparks constantly demanding trinity and treadmill and ezmode.
Thats why GW2 failed not what you mentioned.
Its also very clear to me and obvious you never played GW2.
GW2 could have been a great mmo if they stick to what it s was suppose to be a openworld to explore and have dynamic events this failed only becouse of the already mentioned player base comming from the ezmode spoonfed mmmo's.
GW2 have awesome and great looking world with one of best underwater worlds in any mmo. Also if they had stick to there original plans great game to play with all the events in combo with exploring and combat and skills and limited actionbar.
But thats just imposible ALL MMO'S who try to be different then the ezmode spoonfed WELL KNOWN mmo's failed becouse of the community and small part of the devs/publishers who bow to there wishes.
With dumb down process and the evil cashshop and the community who want traditional themepark make eventually GW2 a avarage themepark we already have in hundreds.
It will never be as it was im affraid also the vetrans have changed and adept to new generations. Mention WoW in the first sentence made me reply to your no good topic and let me type the sentence below.
OP pls change your name your not worthy of been called mmo-vetran.
Again im 100% sure you have not played GW2 and prolly still play the well known mmo we all know ruined the whole mmo genre.
The community have succes after succes and make sure all who wanne be different comback to the traditinal mmo style thats introduced sinds 2004 and real mmo'hardcore games suffer for this.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
First im not playing anymore and i quit becouse of how game changed into ezmode spoonfed casual themepark(from second beta weekend they already changed the difficulty of mobs made it alot easyer un acceptable for me).
Community came from some well known other themeparks constantly demanding trinity and treadmill and ezmode.
Thats why GW2 failed not what you mentioned.
Its also very clear to me and obvious you never played GW2.
GW2 could have been a great mmo if they stick to what it s was suppose to be a openworld to explore and have dynamic events this failed only becouse of the already mentioned player base comming from the ezmode spoonfed mmmo's.
GW2 have awesome and great looking world with one of best underwater worlds in any mmo. Also if they had stick to there original plans great game to play with all the events in combo with exploring and combat and skills and limited actionbar.
But thats just imposible ALL MMO'S who try to be different then the ezmode spoonfed WELL KNOWN mmo's failed becouse of the community and small part of the devs/publishers who bow to there wishes.
With dumb down process and the evil cashshop and the community who want traditional themepark make eventually GW2 a avarage themepark we already have in hundreds.
It will never be as it was im affraid also the vetrans have changed and adept to new generations. Mention WoW in the first sentence made me reply to your no good topic and let me type the sentence below.
OP pls change your name your not worthy of been called mmo-vetran.
Again im 100% sure you have not played GW2 and prolly still play the well known mmo we all know ruined the whole mmo genre.
The community have succes after succes and make sure all who wanne be different comback to the traditinal mmo style thats introduced sinds 2004 and real mmo'hardcore games suffer for this.
GW2 failed? Evil cash shop?
Don't accuse others of not knowing what they're talking about when it's equally clear you don't either.
I personally prefer the feel of gw2's combat, but i prefer the depth of wow's combat. Neither does any of it perfectly though.
Depth of WoW's combat?!?!? Seriously?!?!?!
ok...I've heard/seen/read everything now.
WoW gives you many ways to crack a nut. After playing GW2 for a few weeks, then buying panadland, this was the first thing that stood out. You simply have more choices in WoW due in large part to the amount of skills you put on your action bars. CC in WoW is real, there are interrupts, and many different modes of movement, ways to mitigate, and do dmg. Having more choices in WoW is hard to argue against.
I personally prefer the feel of gw2's combat, but i prefer the depth of wow's combat. Neither does any of it perfectly though.
Depth of WoW's combat?!?!? Seriously?!?!?!
ok...I've heard/seen/read everything now.
There are reasons why addons such as Bitten's spell flash are among the number one downloads for each class on Curse.com. WoW's combat is based on a priority system that goes deeper than you think and takes some time to master.
The 'I agree with you' is about as useful as the 'I don't agree with you'. It's like a +1/-1 system.
Unless you made this post JUST to get people to agree with you, and there's a word for that sort of topic.
Not sure if you're being ignorant, naive or childish but whatever the issue is the point was this thread wasn't to change peoples minds who like the game. Was to offer my impressions on a couple aspects that bothered me. Get over it.
? All I was saying that the comments that exist solely of 'i agree with you' are about as useful as the ones that consist of just 'I don't agree with you'.
They're just simply people doing a +1/-1, responding to you with their own vote.
Lots of people said 'Oh, I agree with you' in a pointless fashion, but you didn't bother to respond to them, but somebody saying 'Oh I don't agree with him', you think it's particularly pointless and need to jump on and respond to that?
I see. So the whole point to the thread is to post your observations and then get people to agree with you.
Yeah. Definitely a name for that sort of thread.
edit: You still don't know how combat works. I'd respect the thread a little more if you'd at least admit you were wrong when you said 'Other then that it is tab targeting other than the auto swing which for melee can miss and for ranged casters is a guaranteed hit without a LoS.' (A direct quote from the first page). Sidestepping projectiles is incredibly useful.
Lets be honest, all the comments in threads like this are pointless. There is a game that some people like and others don't; arguing about it endlessly on this forum isn't going to change that.
In fact a brief comment like 'I agree' is ultimately more useful than the over-long and ultimately pointless diatribes usually posted on here as they take a hell of a lot less time to read.
Not really, the premise of ability combos and committing followups in queue is not that deep of a mechanic.
For example, fighting games with two buttons and a directional pad/stick are pretty straight forward, and their combinations are ultimately derivative of the sequences of gestures coded in.
Add in a couple more buttons and consequently the complexity shoots up as potential combos multiply.
Fundamentally it always derives from the same point of a few key patterns though.
The difference for MMOs is that they use ability combos over key combos. Some abilities have preparatory aspects, and others have followup or catalyst properties that will cause additional effects with an ability. This is not abnormal for most MMOs to have and WoW does not stand unique in that regard, it's rather the most standardized example of such a system.
GW2 has a lot of combo abilities and ones that very efficiently play off one another even without a direct catalyst like many others and WoW. But it also has combat mechanics that WoW simply lacks, such as the combo fields that most players seem to simply forget about using.
The reason someone might see or miss the depth of a given game's combat system largely will rest on the game's sense of balance as well as how clear or obscure the mechanics are. WoW's system is pretty clear and the combat caters rather easily to players doing the same general sequences in a fight.
GW2 is clear on some aspects and not so much on others, and on top of it the creatures you fight even at a normal level are somewhat random in the way they will behave. Where that was meant to push players to use their variety of skills more and think up different strategies to the different fights they face, it's instead somewhat bred the mindset in a lot of players to simply spam against isolated mobs. Essentially most of the potential of the system is going out the window because it's easier to rely on mobs being statistically outmatched rather than try and parse the ways in which everything you have available can play out to make your fights more effective.
EDIT: And lets be honest here, Spell Flash is more about not having to think about sequencing than anything else, it just makes stuff even simpler.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Not really, the premise of ability combos and committing followups in queue is not that deep of a mechanic.
For example, fighting games with two buttons and a directional pad/stick are pretty straight forward, and their combinations are ultimately derivative of the sequences of gestures coded in.
Add in a couple more buttons and consequently the complexity shoots up as potential combos multiply.
Fundamentally it always derives from the same point of a few key patterns though.
The difference for MMOs is that they use ability combos over key combos. Some abilities have preparatory aspects, and others have followup or catalyst properties that will cause additional effects with an ability. This is not abnormal for most MMOs to have and WoW does not stand unique in that regard, it's rather the most standardized example of such a system.
GW2 has a lot of combo abilities and ones that very efficiently play off one another even without a direct catalyst like many others and WoW. But it also has combat mechanics that WoW simply lacks, such as the combo fields that most players seem to simply forget about using.
The reason someone might see or miss the depth of a given game's combat system largely will rest on the game's sense of balance as well as how clear or obscure the mechanics are. WoW's system is pretty clear and the combat caters rather easily to players doing the same general sequences in a fight.
GW2 is clear on some aspects and not so much on others, and on top of it the creatures you fight even at a normal level are somewhat random in the way they will behave. Where that was meant to push players to use their variety of skills more and think up different strategies to the different fights they face, it's instead somewhat bred the mindset in a lot of players to simply spam against isolated mobs. Essentially most of the potential of the system is going out the window because it's easier to rely on mobs being statistically outmatched rather than try and parse the ways in which everything you have available can play out to make your fights more effective.
EDIT: And lets be honest here, Spell Flash is more about not having to think about sequencing than anything else, it just makes stuff even simpler.
I am not going to argue with your post. But the fact is, Between the 2 combat systems, I don't think either one particularly stands out and deeper than the other. But as is the case in my earlier post. The combat systems are apples and oranges. And the earlier video that was posted cherry picked issues if not straight up made up issues where none really existed in order to make a "point".
We can debate the depth of combat systems all day and still end up agreeing to disagree. Or maybe agree, who knows.
Personally, I enjoy both systems, but they are fundamentally different and really cannot be compared in an apples to apples context.
Not really, the premise of ability combos and committing followups in queue is not that deep of a mechanic.
For example, fighting games with two buttons and a directional pad/stick are pretty straight forward, and their combinations are ultimately derivative of the sequences of gestures coded in.
Add in a couple more buttons and consequently the complexity shoots up as potential combos multiply.
Fundamentally it always derives from the same point of a few key patterns though.
The difference for MMOs is that they use ability combos over key combos. Some abilities have preparatory aspects, and others have followup or catalyst properties that will cause additional effects with an ability. This is not abnormal for most MMOs to have and WoW does not stand unique in that regard, it's rather the most standardized example of such a system.
GW2 has a lot of combo abilities and ones that very efficiently play off one another even without a direct catalyst like many others and WoW. But it also has combat mechanics that WoW simply lacks, such as the combo fields that most players seem to simply forget about using.
The reason someone might see or miss the depth of a given game's combat system largely will rest on the game's sense of balance as well as how clear or obscure the mechanics are. WoW's system is pretty clear and the combat caters rather easily to players doing the same general sequences in a fight.
GW2 is clear on some aspects and not so much on others, and on top of it the creatures you fight even at a normal level are somewhat random in the way they will behave. Where that was meant to push players to use their variety of skills more and think up different strategies to the different fights they face, it's instead somewhat bred the mindset in a lot of players to simply spam against isolated mobs. Essentially most of the potential of the system is going out the window because it's easier to rely on mobs being statistically outmatched rather than try and parse the ways in which everything you have available can play out to make your fights more effective.
EDIT: And lets be honest here, Spell Flash is more about not having to think about sequencing than anything else, it just makes stuff even simpler.
I am not going to argue with your post. But the fact is, Between the 2 combat systems, I don't think either one particularly stands out and deeper than the other. But as is the case in my earlier post. The combat systems are apples and oranges. And the earlier video that was posted cherry picked issues if not straight up made up issues where none really existed in order to make a "point".
We can debate the depth of combat systems all day and still end up agreeing to disagree. Or maybe agree, who knows.
Personally, I enjoy both systems, but they are fundamentally different and really cannot be compared in an apples to apples context.
I agree- I'm not a fan of either- but that video was a nonsense. You can make anything look anyway you choose to if you cherry-pick like that. The games are from different times, and most the 'improvements' are merely down to the fact the GW2 is newer and has all the benefits of better performance/ connections/ animations etc. As for the combat system, it is simply different.
How is that video nonsense? It clearly shows what's wrong with the combat in WoW (and other mmos).
Hitting a target at 180 degrees or hitting one 5 ft. away, looks ridiculous and unrealistic. It's really bad design and bad gameplay. It's laughable really, and just shows how archaic the combat really is.
Following a set rotation isn't depth either. It's just memorization of keybinds, intertwined with a global cooldown, along with regular cooldowns.
In GW2, and other recent mmos, you need to react with more precision. If you don't react fast enough with dodge, stuns, reactives, heals, etc., you will get hit and die. There's also weapon switching to add combo fields, then using combo finishers, which in effect help others. All this without a global cooldown gives the player more precise timing, and gives them greater control to their toolset. It's not perfect, but it's vastly superior to WoW in reaction based combat.
In WoW, your CC & reactive abilities take less skill, because they last longer or are easily spammable. In GW2, this isn't the case. CC's do not last long at all. You have to actually time your skill to break out of it, and if you don't do it, you just wasted a cooldown. This isn't to say that i think it's perfect, but there is definitely more skill with this type of "twitch" gameplay. If you want an extreme example, then compare an FPS game to WoW. The skill of the player is much more aware, due to the player needing to duck, prone, aim, walk, crouch, and most importantly, react.
Another thing to note, is that if you press a skill without a target, then you essentially wasted that skill and will have to wait for the cooldown again. This isn't possible in almost all of WoW's skills. Without a target in WoW, you cannot waste a skill, which means you can just button mash if you're out of range or without a target. How is that being skilled?
GW2's combat has it's problems of course, and i've been very critical of it in the past, but to even suggest that WoW's archaic system is superior, or to say it's somehow not fair to compare the two, is just being blinded by bias.
This is has all been discussed before since release, but some of you will never accept the truth and will just bash GW2 any time the opportunity rises. lol.
How is that video nonsense? It clearly shows what's wrong with the combat in WoW (and other mmos).
Hitting a target at 180 degrees or hitting one 5 ft. away, looks ridiculous and unrealistic. It's really bad design and bad gameplay. It's laughable really, and just shows how archaic the combat really is.
Following a set rotation isn't depth either. It's just memorization of keybinds, intertwined with a global cooldown, along with regular cooldowns.
In GW2, and other recent mmos, you need to react with more precision. If you don't react fast enough with dodge, stuns, reactives, heals, etc., you will get hit and die. There's also weapon switching to add combo fields, then using combo finishers, which in effect help others. All this without a global cooldown gives the player more precise timing, and gives them greater control to their toolset. It's not perfect, but it's vastly superior to WoW in reaction based combat.
In WoW, your CC & reactive abilities take less skill, because they last longer or are easily spammable. In GW2, this isn't the case. CC's do not last long at all. You have to actually time your skill to break out of it, and if you don't do it, you just wasted a cooldown. This isn't to say that i think it's perfect, but there is definitely more skill with this type of "twitch" gameplay. If you want an extreme example, then compare an FPS game to WoW. The skill of the player is much more aware, due to the player needing to duck, prone, aim, walk, crouch, and most importantly, react.
Another thing to note, is that if you press a skill without a target, then you essentially wasted that skill and will have to wait for the cooldown again. This isn't possible in almost all of WoW's skills. Without a target in WoW, you cannot waste a skill, which means you can just button mash if you're out of range or without a target. How is that being skilled?
GW2's combat has it's problems of course, and i've been very critical of it in the past, but to even suggest that WoW's archaic system is superior, or to say it's somehow not fair to compare the two, is just being blinded by bias.
This is has all been discussed before since release, but some of you will never accept the truth and will just bash GW2 any time the opportunity rises. lol.
It's already been explained to you that the video does not capture real WoW combat, it is low level auto attacking. Most of WoW isn't about auto attacking. Also I have NEVER in my years playing WoW shot something at 180 degrees, you could only do that if you were trying to create an unrealistic scenario which exploited your own lag + poor pathing of mobs. You simply can't auto attack 180 degrees in pvp. You would need to spin your character 180 degrees and then flick him back to whatever direction you wanted. Which all good pvpers know how to do. I hit targets 5 ft away in gw2 as well, what does that say about gw2 if those are your standards?
At top level PvE and PvP, wow is reactive, there is no rotation you can follow an entire fight, if you want to be efficient. Anyone that has played at top level PvE and PvP in WoW knows that you have to "react with precision" in WoW. Combo fields and finishers are no different than just using a few different abilities in WoW that synergize well. It's like putting sunder armor up and then using an attack that benefits from sunder armor, WOW what a combo field!
What you say about WoW cc is just a grossly inexperienced opinion.
Compare GW2 to an esport fps game, or even an mmo with good pvp, where you have to factor in much deeper strategy, if you want to go to extremes. GW2 is not twitchier than WoW. Sorry to burst your bubble, there are many spells in WoW that are off of the gcd, and the only reason you feel gw2 is more twitchy is because you've been fooled by the movement system, moving fast =! twitchy. Maybe to casuals it is...
Many of WoW's skills can be wasted if you don't use them correctly, with and without targets.
You very obviously have no experience with high skill level wow play, if you did you would see just how completely absurd that video is. It would be like someone making an anti-gw2 video and criticizing the game purely on exaggerated experiences in the starter areas.
Hell GW2 combat doesn't even have anything in it that compares to a TBC mage shatter combo mechanically...
I'm not going to argue which combat is superior, GW2 or WoW. That's not a fight that anybody here is going to win.
My only argument is that the two use different combat engines and that it is especially apparent on certain things like LoS, people standing in the way of projectiles, and sidestepping projectiles.
If you look at that video and ignore for a moment the 'broken' 'fixed' thing, or which system has more depth or whatever, those are all irrelevant to my original point, which is that the two are DIFFERENT. GW2 most definitely isn't using your WoW style tab target combat.
I will say that you can't determine a game's depth purely by the amount of moves it has. Hot bar size isn't everything. Chess has very few types of moves that can be done, but it's incredibly complex, more complex than a human being can handle.
Go has even LESS moves that can be done, and it's just as complex, if not more so. I'm not saying this to say 'This means GW2 is more advanced', just saying that pointing to the amount of special attacks is not the sole way to determine how complex a system is.
GW2 is a fun game. I've played an elementalist and guardian to 80. I can tell you right now that combat in this game is not random key strokes.
Switching before the 4 stances on a full Berserker Ele is really, really difficult. Even on low level fractals. Maintaining your rotation to maximize damage/cc/heal, to clear conditions of allies, AND not get touched more than twice...
Roll a dagger/dagger ele, go full berserk, and run dungeons, WvW, and fractals. Come back and tell me that is random button mashing. It is a lot of fun. It is not the most difficult thing in the world... but it is difficult enough to get"YES!" moments in combat.
Comments
Not sure if you're being ignorant, naive or childish but whatever the issue is the point was this thread wasn't to change peoples minds who like the game. Was to offer my impressions on a couple aspects that bothered me. Get over it.
Are you certain of that? Your description of the combat makes it sound like you don't even play the game to be honest. But... then again... you're only at level 65, is that correct? So you're not doing higher level content that requires more intricacies than open world PvE (true of any game). You're not running Fractals, level 80 dungeons, probably not even involved in any quasi-serious WvW, so you've never had to actually put some thought and effort into what you're doing in combat (same as most every game, really) as of yet. No thought into builds, tactics, observing the overall fight and reacting to what others are doing as well as yourself, etc.
I'm going to make a little admission here... when I first started (back before the first official beta actually) at first, for a couple levels at least, I was having a hard time liking the combat. It was... different... in ways I wasn't yet comfortable with. (Plus things were tuned a lot harder in the open world. A LOT harder!) It took a bit to get the feel of the flow, to learn to watch for telegraphing, to dodge at the right times, etc. But now... man, I can't go back to the archaic trinity style rotation based combat of old. Too static. Too thoughtless. So it could simply be that you need to experience the combat at max level when you've put some thought into it and put yourself in an environment where you need to actually use all your abilities to the best you can.
If you ever want to give a good WvW guild a try, on JQ look up Strike Force (SF). It is not the combat (or the WvW) you're used to.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Well I'm 80 now on my Guardian, I'll check some things out.
Ah, now THAT'S good news indeed! You'll find guardians to be rather popular, especially on the WvW scene. I've dusted mine off again and am having fun with staff/hammer personally. Hammer 4 is the best skill in the game, by the way. Get an enemy downed near the top of a cliff, hit four, then count the hang time you get. It's giggle worthy.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Off Topic: Hammer 4, Fire Sword 4, Ice Bow 4... hmm Anet and the number 4...
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
? All I was saying that the comments that exist solely of 'i agree with you' are about as useful as the ones that consist of just 'I don't agree with you'.
They're just simply people doing a +1/-1, responding to you with their own vote.
Lots of people said 'Oh, I agree with you' in a pointless fashion, but you didn't bother to respond to them, but somebody saying 'Oh I don't agree with him', you think it's particularly pointless and need to jump on and respond to that?
I see. So the whole point to the thread is to post your observations and then get people to agree with you.
Yeah. Definitely a name for that sort of thread.
edit: You still don't know how combat works. I'd respect the thread a little more if you'd at least admit you were wrong when you said 'Other then that it is tab targeting other than the auto swing which for melee can miss and for ranged casters is a guaranteed hit without a LoS.' (A direct quote from the first page). Sidestepping projectiles is incredibly useful.
A little video I like to keep bookmarked.
Many MMORPGs that are running today share so much of those combat features...
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Thanks for the video. I remember watching this before, but i didn't add it to my favorites. I've been trying to find it for months now, so i could show someone the differences between most MMO's combat and GW2's combat.
This is also why i questioned the OP's claim that, "but I've seen my fair share of attacks do 180 degree curves to hit me even though I roll", which isn't correct, unless there was some sort of lag client-side or server-side.
I think that video totally misrepresents combat in WoW. The system is the way it is by design. It's not "broken" and doesn't need to be fixed. The combat action in GW2 is by design and ins't broken and doesn't need to be fixed either. But the systems are apples and oranges. GW2 combat is fully developed early on in the game. So basically in that video, combat in GW2 is for the most part the same as it will be at 80. Not the case for WoW, using low level combat in WoW as compared to the fully developed combat in GW2 is really biased and questionable.
The reasons for homing projectiles is because the hit had already been calculated before the animation took place. The math is done differently in GW2. So like I said, it's not broken.
Try comparing the combat sequences from endgame raiding. It gets pretty hectic keeping up with your rotations and priorities. It is actually pretty difficult until you practice and get a feel for your class. To add GW2 mechanics in the way this video implies would "fix" WoW's combat would not work.
Also, there is no mention of any weakness in GW2's system. Or is that perfect? I liked it, but I didn't think it was perfect.
A biased video like that is really transparent and was just meant to portray WoW in a bad light.
I had to laugh at that video, and anyone who would actually eat up the propaganda from it. WoW combat is extremely fast-paced when it wants to be, and as you mentioned some low level running around auto attacking is not going to accurately represent WoW combat.
Also gw2 often can give the illusion of faster paced combat cause of the movement while casting, but the problem there is, not all the movement while casting is efficient, it's just there to be there. WoW has a much deeper skill system and when you fight other players for example, you are fighting with many more layers of strategy, because everyone has 20-40 abilities they can be using that are relevant to pvp, almost all of which have some serious added effects to what they do after they've been used.
I personally prefer the feel of gw2's combat, but i prefer the depth of wow's combat. Neither does any of it perfectly though.
[quote] Originally posted by caetftl
Depth of WoW's combat?!?!? Seriously?!?!?!
ok...I've heard/seen/read everything now.
@OP,
First im not playing anymore and i quit becouse of how game changed into ezmode spoonfed casual themepark(from second beta weekend they already changed the difficulty of mobs made it alot easyer un acceptable for me).
Community came from some well known other themeparks constantly demanding trinity and treadmill and ezmode.
Thats why GW2 failed not what you mentioned.
Its also very clear to me and obvious you never played GW2.
GW2 could have been a great mmo if they stick to what it s was suppose to be a openworld to explore and have dynamic events this failed only becouse of the already mentioned player base comming from the ezmode spoonfed mmmo's.
GW2 have awesome and great looking world with one of best underwater worlds in any mmo. Also if they had stick to there original plans great game to play with all the events in combo with exploring and combat and skills and limited actionbar.
But thats just imposible ALL MMO'S who try to be different then the ezmode spoonfed WELL KNOWN mmo's failed becouse of the community and small part of the devs/publishers who bow to there wishes.
With dumb down process and the evil cashshop and the community who want traditional themepark make eventually GW2 a avarage themepark we already have in hundreds.
It will never be as it was im affraid also the vetrans have changed and adept to new generations.
Mention WoW in the first sentence made me reply to your no good topic and let me type the sentence below.
OP pls change your name your not worthy of been called mmo-vetran.
Again im 100% sure you have not played GW2 and prolly still play the well known mmo we all know ruined the whole mmo genre.
The community have succes after succes and make sure all who wanne be different comback to the traditinal mmo style thats introduced sinds 2004 and real mmo'hardcore games suffer for this.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
GW2 failed? Evil cash shop?
Don't accuse others of not knowing what they're talking about when it's equally clear you don't either.
Oderint, dum metuant.
WoW gives you many ways to crack a nut. After playing GW2 for a few weeks, then buying panadland, this was the first thing that stood out. You simply have more choices in WoW due in large part to the amount of skills you put on your action bars. CC in WoW is real, there are interrupts, and many different modes of movement, ways to mitigate, and do dmg. Having more choices in WoW is hard to argue against.
There are reasons why addons such as Bitten's spell flash are among the number one downloads for each class on Curse.com. WoW's combat is based on a priority system that goes deeper than you think and takes some time to master.
Lets be honest, all the comments in threads like this are pointless. There is a game that some people like and others don't; arguing about it endlessly on this forum isn't going to change that.
In fact a brief comment like 'I agree' is ultimately more useful than the over-long and ultimately pointless diatribes usually posted on here as they take a hell of a lot less time to read.
Not really, the premise of ability combos and committing followups in queue is not that deep of a mechanic.
For example, fighting games with two buttons and a directional pad/stick are pretty straight forward, and their combinations are ultimately derivative of the sequences of gestures coded in.
Add in a couple more buttons and consequently the complexity shoots up as potential combos multiply.
Fundamentally it always derives from the same point of a few key patterns though.
The difference for MMOs is that they use ability combos over key combos. Some abilities have preparatory aspects, and others have followup or catalyst properties that will cause additional effects with an ability. This is not abnormal for most MMOs to have and WoW does not stand unique in that regard, it's rather the most standardized example of such a system.
GW2 has a lot of combo abilities and ones that very efficiently play off one another even without a direct catalyst like many others and WoW. But it also has combat mechanics that WoW simply lacks, such as the combo fields that most players seem to simply forget about using.
The reason someone might see or miss the depth of a given game's combat system largely will rest on the game's sense of balance as well as how clear or obscure the mechanics are. WoW's system is pretty clear and the combat caters rather easily to players doing the same general sequences in a fight.
GW2 is clear on some aspects and not so much on others, and on top of it the creatures you fight even at a normal level are somewhat random in the way they will behave. Where that was meant to push players to use their variety of skills more and think up different strategies to the different fights they face, it's instead somewhat bred the mindset in a lot of players to simply spam against isolated mobs. Essentially most of the potential of the system is going out the window because it's easier to rely on mobs being statistically outmatched rather than try and parse the ways in which everything you have available can play out to make your fights more effective.
EDIT: And lets be honest here, Spell Flash is more about not having to think about sequencing than anything else, it just makes stuff even simpler.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I am not going to argue with your post. But the fact is, Between the 2 combat systems, I don't think either one particularly stands out and deeper than the other. But as is the case in my earlier post. The combat systems are apples and oranges. And the earlier video that was posted cherry picked issues if not straight up made up issues where none really existed in order to make a "point".
We can debate the depth of combat systems all day and still end up agreeing to disagree. Or maybe agree, who knows.
Personally, I enjoy both systems, but they are fundamentally different and really cannot be compared in an apples to apples context.
I agree- I'm not a fan of either- but that video was a nonsense. You can make anything look anyway you choose to if you cherry-pick like that. The games are from different times, and most the 'improvements' are merely down to the fact the GW2 is newer and has all the benefits of better performance/ connections/ animations etc. As for the combat system, it is simply different.
How is that video nonsense? It clearly shows what's wrong with the combat in WoW (and other mmos).
Hitting a target at 180 degrees or hitting one 5 ft. away, looks ridiculous and unrealistic. It's really bad design and bad gameplay. It's laughable really, and just shows how archaic the combat really is.
Following a set rotation isn't depth either. It's just memorization of keybinds, intertwined with a global cooldown, along with regular cooldowns.
In GW2, and other recent mmos, you need to react with more precision. If you don't react fast enough with dodge, stuns, reactives, heals, etc., you will get hit and die. There's also weapon switching to add combo fields, then using combo finishers, which in effect help others. All this without a global cooldown gives the player more precise timing, and gives them greater control to their toolset. It's not perfect, but it's vastly superior to WoW in reaction based combat.
In WoW, your CC & reactive abilities take less skill, because they last longer or are easily spammable. In GW2, this isn't the case. CC's do not last long at all. You have to actually time your skill to break out of it, and if you don't do it, you just wasted a cooldown. This isn't to say that i think it's perfect, but there is definitely more skill with this type of "twitch" gameplay. If you want an extreme example, then compare an FPS game to WoW. The skill of the player is much more aware, due to the player needing to duck, prone, aim, walk, crouch, and most importantly, react.
Another thing to note, is that if you press a skill without a target, then you essentially wasted that skill and will have to wait for the cooldown again. This isn't possible in almost all of WoW's skills. Without a target in WoW, you cannot waste a skill, which means you can just button mash if you're out of range or without a target. How is that being skilled?
GW2's combat has it's problems of course, and i've been very critical of it in the past, but to even suggest that WoW's archaic system is superior, or to say it's somehow not fair to compare the two, is just being blinded by bias.
This is has all been discussed before since release, but some of you will never accept the truth and will just bash GW2 any time the opportunity rises. lol.
It's already been explained to you that the video does not capture real WoW combat, it is low level auto attacking. Most of WoW isn't about auto attacking. Also I have NEVER in my years playing WoW shot something at 180 degrees, you could only do that if you were trying to create an unrealistic scenario which exploited your own lag + poor pathing of mobs. You simply can't auto attack 180 degrees in pvp. You would need to spin your character 180 degrees and then flick him back to whatever direction you wanted. Which all good pvpers know how to do. I hit targets 5 ft away in gw2 as well, what does that say about gw2 if those are your standards?
At top level PvE and PvP, wow is reactive, there is no rotation you can follow an entire fight, if you want to be efficient. Anyone that has played at top level PvE and PvP in WoW knows that you have to "react with precision" in WoW. Combo fields and finishers are no different than just using a few different abilities in WoW that synergize well. It's like putting sunder armor up and then using an attack that benefits from sunder armor, WOW what a combo field!
What you say about WoW cc is just a grossly inexperienced opinion.
Compare GW2 to an esport fps game, or even an mmo with good pvp, where you have to factor in much deeper strategy, if you want to go to extremes. GW2 is not twitchier than WoW. Sorry to burst your bubble, there are many spells in WoW that are off of the gcd, and the only reason you feel gw2 is more twitchy is because you've been fooled by the movement system, moving fast =! twitchy. Maybe to casuals it is...
Many of WoW's skills can be wasted if you don't use them correctly, with and without targets.
You very obviously have no experience with high skill level wow play, if you did you would see just how completely absurd that video is. It would be like someone making an anti-gw2 video and criticizing the game purely on exaggerated experiences in the starter areas.
Hell GW2 combat doesn't even have anything in it that compares to a TBC mage shatter combo mechanically...
I'm not going to argue which combat is superior, GW2 or WoW. That's not a fight that anybody here is going to win.
My only argument is that the two use different combat engines and that it is especially apparent on certain things like LoS, people standing in the way of projectiles, and sidestepping projectiles.
If you look at that video and ignore for a moment the 'broken' 'fixed' thing, or which system has more depth or whatever, those are all irrelevant to my original point, which is that the two are DIFFERENT. GW2 most definitely isn't using your WoW style tab target combat.
I will say that you can't determine a game's depth purely by the amount of moves it has. Hot bar size isn't everything. Chess has very few types of moves that can be done, but it's incredibly complex, more complex than a human being can handle.
Go has even LESS moves that can be done, and it's just as complex, if not more so. I'm not saying this to say 'This means GW2 is more advanced', just saying that pointing to the amount of special attacks is not the sole way to determine how complex a system is.
OP. I stopped playing one month after launch. So I couldn't agree with you more.
Fails: 1. No dedicated healer class along with weaker supplanting subhealing.
2. No visible character progression/advancement.
3. Repetitive questing.
Call me old school but I don't care for GW2. My money and time goes elsewhere.
GW2 is a fun game. I've played an elementalist and guardian to 80. I can tell you right now that combat in this game is not random key strokes.
Switching before the 4 stances on a full Berserker Ele is really, really difficult. Even on low level fractals. Maintaining your rotation to maximize damage/cc/heal, to clear conditions of allies, AND not get touched more than twice...
Roll a dagger/dagger ele, go full berserk, and run dungeons, WvW, and fractals. Come back and tell me that is random button mashing. It is a lot of fun. It is not the most difficult thing in the world... but it is difficult enough to get"YES!" moments in combat.