I have watched so many MMOs come out with great innovations, and glaring faults. Each game is but a piece of the puzzle. The six biggest pieces I remember in my life were as follows.
DAOC, with amazing PVP and class diversity. But horribly lacking PVE.
WOW, with revolutionary UI simplicity and refined take on PVE questing.
FFXI, with fantastic group dynamic. Skill chains and magic bursts.
GW, with great class builds and the iconic Skill Bar.
SWTOR, with the best class story system I've ever played. Dialogue options and an alignment system.
WAR, with the only good Public Quest system I've played.
If we took all of this and just made a game, how great would that be? Anywho, that is my opinion.
OP, look to Wildstar, the graphics are lame but the gameplay sounds fantastic.
I think the problem is more to do with something we watch a lot of, for example lets say action movies. After seeing so many, we just dont care for them as much as we used to when we were a younger generation. However, a Quentin Tarantino movie, is something special that it goes a bit over the top, and makes it more about entertainment rather than something that takes itself too seriously.
I think MMOs not that they need to be silly/funny, but need to go over the top in many aspects. Action combat, to show more action, and make it more than 2 dimensional combat, involve ceilings etc, Gore etc
Story, can go over the top. Mature/bizare/scary etc
Humor can go over the top. Can anyone watch a south park episode and say they are bored?
I think MMOs just need to take it to the next level, and go over the top in many aspects, and stop taking themselves too seriously.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Originally posted by Forgrimm You also have to realize that while games have evolved, us old-school players have aged and evolved as well. I started playing EQ back in '99 when I was 22 years old. I had no major responsibilities at the time besides a full-time job, and the MMO genre was brand new, that's what made it so amazing. Now I'm 35, have a family and a lot more responsibilities, and have no desire to play something as time consuming and tedious as the original EQ was back in its day. The whole generation that started playing the gen-1 MMO's has grown up now. And the new crop of MMO's has learned from the mistakes of past MMO's. Very few people would consider sitting around for 6 hours, camping a static spawn, only to have it not drop the item that they want, to be fun. It was fun back in the day because we didn't know any better, we had nothing else to compare it to, and it was new and shiny at the time.
AMEN
This argument always puzzles me. Do you guys think everyone was 22 ten years ago and had tons of free time? I was 46, with a wife, 3 children and a 50+ hour a week job, yet I found plenty of time to carve out some fun in the old school MMORPG's.
No, I didn't do many of those 6 hour raid camps you are describing, but it never really serves to bolster an argument by pointing out the most extreme examples of content unplayable by the more casual gamer when you are over looking the huge amount of content that was available to a player like me.
Trust me, you could find time to play the original EQ even with your current responsibilities, but you would play it differently, just as I had to.
Funny thing is the wheel comes around, now the kids are out of the house, so I have more time than ever to game but still I wouldn't do long raids. Deosn't mean I wouldn't enjoy some more challenging and even time consuming content.
Guess that's why I've been playing a DAOC freeshard set back to 2003 rules, with all the timesinks, crowd control, and RVR that the game is famous for (including the zerg like open world combat)
Trust me, if I could do it, you can do it, and you'll find sleep is really a very optional thing.
How can you have a lot of time to play while working 50 hours a week, as well as with a family? It's just not possible without putting your health at risk. Those who were young and lacked responsibilities could put 40-50 hours in a week if they so wanted, a true working stiff can't, it's just one of the facts of life, those with responsibility have less free time. It's those with the time that make up the large part of an active community outside of prime time hours(8 pm -10pm or so).
A game with mostly working stiffs looks pretty much like DAOC or UO today. Very few people on outside of prime time hours. That doesn't bode well for profits.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have this same sensation as of the last few years. I personally loved 4 MMO's very dearly.
Planetside 1 (pre-expansion packs/BFR's)
Anarchy Online (my cherry-popper for MMORPG's)
FFXI (the greatest experience in an MMORPG to date)
Star Wars Galaxies (the buggiest and funnest disaster ever made)
The one thing all these games had in common was the sense of community. In FFXI, I played with the same people for nearly 4 years. In Planetside, I recognized faces (though not NEARLY as close knit as FFXI) over the span of 8 years. AO had some of the most dedicated players I ever knew over the span of 12 years. And SWG, despite it only offering me a few months of entertainment, brought together generations of people based one their love of Star Wars alone (which allowed people to look past the endless number of flaws in the game. All 4 of these games had really different styles of gameplay, too.
Nowadays, everything just presents the "been there, done that" sensation for me. I've delved into multiple other MMO's in the past 3 years (Aion, TERA, SWtoR, FFXIV, GW2 being the most well-known ones) and not stuck with one of them past 2 months. I find that 60 days is sufficient to complete most of these games before the inevitable gear treadmill/reputation grinding commences. That's one thing that I realized every MMO does nowadays, and I hate. Gear grind. Reputation grind.
The bigger problem lies within the fact that there is nothing else to do aside from this. Developers have decided that end-game is solely to be dedicated to these 2 elements. What about fun? What about spontaneity? What if I wanna just log on and shoot the shit with some friends in the guild while I do homework/work? There's no emphasis on fun, and that's what kills me about MMO's. MIN/MAXing, DPS parsers, video-walkthroughs of dungeons, gear checks.... this is the stuff that takes all the joy out of MMORPG's.
Things that used to be fun and valuable distractions in games aren't there anymore. What about training pets? Building houses/cities? Open world PvP that DIDN'T consist of just corpse camping and corpse runs? How about casinos and card games and races? Does anyone remember how utterly badass the cantinas were with vanilla SWG, with the bands booming and the people gathering at the inns? How about exploring random caves on random planets just because they were there (and no, they weren't marked on the map, nor was there a quest line that showed you it; you had to explore to find them) or stumbling across a campfire in the distance and knowing "Hey.... friends...... or REBEL SCUM?!?" I know some folks have to remember these features which, for the most part, were time-sinks, but time-sinks that gave you an excuse to socialize, interact, and develop your community based on which planet/cantina you frequented the most. Just to give you an example of how in-depth these used to get, watch like 1 minute of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqaD1-dJmJE
In FFXI, the community developed as a result of the MASSIVE time it required to level and do anything. Who remembers 5 hour long exp parties? The combat was almost mind-numbing at times, but you made friends with your groups because it took you hours to get stuff done. A bad player was noticeable almost immediately, and would develop a reputation on the server. You couldn't do *anything* without a group, so making friends wasn't a suggestion... it was a damned requirement. Don't let me fool you; the downside to this was 10+ hours of LFG as a DPS class. This led to even more socializing, because the more friends you had and the more people you knew, the less time you'd have to spend sitting and waiting.
Planetside was different that FFXI and SWG. It, in my opinion, was the most comparable to "modern" MMORPG's. You could chat with people, or totally ignore them all. Want to get into the fray? HART drop into combat; at most you're waiting 10 minutes to be involved in a fight for the next 6 hours. When you dropped in, you found a squad, and you got to work. Commanders were basically guild leaders, and they'd tell the masses where to go, when to go there, what to bring, etc. Even still, with no real required communication... people started to do so by choice, because you wanted to be a part of the greater good, i.e. *THE* Fight!
..... and that's the problem with MMO's nowadays. It's too NOW NOW NOW, it's too casual. Community is not something that ups and appears overnight. It takes a long, LOOOONG time to develop. Look at Eve Online; it is generally heralded as the greatest community game ever. Was it always so? No, no it was not. But those folks sunk in hundreds and thousands of hours together, and the community (slowly) began to grow. Due to the sheer size and nature of the beast, it took quite some time, but there's not an Eve veteran out there who will say "The community sucks in this game", because it doesn't. Games like GW2 come out, and FFXIV come out, and you can solo the whole game. You can max a craft in a few hours (and you don't need to trade or interact with anyone to do so). Then you can grind for gear for weeks, months, with or without interaction.
That's why games suck nowadays. Games are so simple and easy to complete that the challenge and difficulty necessary to foster and develop a community never occurs. Why do you use an auction house? Because you need help acquiring materials that are too difficult for you to obtain. Why do you join a group? Because you need assistance to run dungeons. A general rule of thumb in MMORPG's is that some people will never interact with others unless they absolutely have to; the second these people start being catered to or considered to be a primary target demographic, that's when a game is committing to saying "**** the notion of community". Unfortunately, the last 3 years has focused on this demographic almost exclusively. The here, the new, the "I can only play 2 hours a week" community., and while I understand that not everyone can sink 4 hours a day into a game, the attitude in the industry has shifted from "Well let's make content accessible to these people, but keep on designing it for hardcore players" -----> "Let's make content for these people, and the hell with hardcore players."
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
If you want reality it is this. The MMO industry is still looking for a bigger player base which got it into its current situation in the first place. We have more players who want to spend less time in each new MMO that's comes out. Chasing social media types as they now are we will have even more players who want to spend even less time in each new MMO. Currently we are only going to get more of the same:
More P2W items, more gambling, more soloing, more hand holding, more rat run areas, more activities which have no effect on the game world.
If you want hope it is this. There are tons of players like us out there who want something more than easymode, P2W and gambling. Also if given a chance newer players who have never seen anything other than that type of MMO may surprise us and want more:
More risk, more landscape area, more RP tools, more non questing activities, more direction in end game.
If you want reality it is this. The MMO industry is still looking for a bigger player base which got it into its current situation in the first place. We have more players who want to spend less time in each new MMO that's comes out. Chasing social media types as they now are we will have even more players who want to spend even less time in each new MMO. Currently we are only going to get more of the same:
More P2W items, more gambling, more soloing, more hand holding, more rat run areas, more activities which have no effect on the game world.
If you want hope it is this. There are tons of players like us out there who want something more than easymode, P2W and gambling. Also if given a chance newer players who have never seen anything other than that type of MMO may surprise us and want more:
More risk, more landscape area, more RP tools, more non questing activities, more direction in end game.
Oh, come on Scot, you can't be serious! How can you expect people to believe such nonsense?
None of the major titles are really pushing for the "social media types", P2W is anything but prevalent, so is gambling, and merely being solo-friendly doesn't make the game a "solo-game". The "hand holding" you are referring to is the type of accessibility and usability is what the genre has been desperately lacking for years, the rat run areas have always been there, and none of the things you've done in a game has ever mattered much.
What you're saying is just straightforward lies.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
This argument always puzzles me. Do you guys think everyone was 22 ten years ago and had tons of free time? I was 46, with a wife, 3 children and a 50+ hour a week job, yet I found plenty of time to carve out some fun in the old school MMORPG's.
No, I didn't do many of those 6 hour raid camps you are describing, but it never really serves to bolster an argument by pointing out the most extreme examples of content unplayable by the more casual gamer when you are over looking the huge amount of content that was available to a player like me.
Trust me, you could find time to play the original EQ even with your current responsibilities, but you would play it differently, just as I had to.
Funny thing is the wheel comes around, now the kids are out of the house, so I have more time than ever to game but still I wouldn't do long raids. Deosn't mean I wouldn't enjoy some more challenging and even time consuming content.
Guess that's why I've been playing a DAOC freeshard set back to 2003 rules, with all the timesinks, crowd control, and RVR that the game is famous for (including the zerg like open world combat)
Trust me, if I could do it, you can do it, and you'll find sleep is really a very optional thing.
There was very, very little that could be done in the original EQ through casual play. And when I say original EQ, I'm talking the early years of the game, which is when I played. It wasn't the type of game where you could log on for 30 minutes to an hour, complete a few quests and then log off. Even the simplest tasks almost always required a group beyond the very low levels. The process of getting a group would often take as much as an hour or more of time alone. Sure there were classes that could solo well as they got to higher levels and had more powerful spells or pets. But even then, killing a mob in EQ took significantly longer than killing a mob in today's MMO's. Playing solo or casually would have not only been incredibly boring, but it would have resulted in almost no notable progression whatsoever. I remember putting in 12 hour grind sessions and our xp bars would barely move.
While agree with most you have said i do have hope for one game on the horizon: The repopulation. If they can pull it off this will be good and it is not just another copy.
If you want reality it is this. The MMO industry is still looking for a bigger player base which got it into its current situation in the first place. We have more players who want to spend less time in each new MMO that's comes out. Chasing social media types as they now are we will have even more players who want to spend even less time in each new MMO. Currently we are only going to get more of the same:
More P2W items, more gambling, more soloing, more hand holding, more rat run areas, more activities which have no effect on the game world.
If you want hope it is this. There are tons of players like us out there who want something more than easymode, P2W and gambling. Also if given a chance newer players who have never seen anything other than that type of MMO may surprise us and want more:
More risk, more landscape area, more RP tools, more non questing activities, more direction in end game.
Oh, come on Scot, you can't be serious! How can you expect people to believe such nonsense?
None of the major titles are really pushing for the "social media types", P2W is anything but prevalent, so is gambling, and merely being solo-friendly doesn't make the game a "solo-game". The "hand holding" you are referring to is the type of accessibility and usability is what the genre has been desperately lacking for years, the rat run areas have always been there, and none of the things you've done in a game has ever mattered much.
What you're saying is just straightforward lies.
Obviously we see the history of MMOs in very different ways. The MMO industry looked at the likes of Farmville and thought we will have some of that. They saw a bigger market and have been aiming at it ever since. Now what does that mean? I am not saying they abandoned everything they had done so far and tried to make a MMO for Farmville players. But the social media friendly nature of every MMO is now easy to see. The like buttons, the apps to follow your game, or even partially play it from a smartphone. Every ding in game will end up being a ding on Facebook, the intent to appeal to that market is clear.
How do you make a MMO more accessible to social media games players who have a very limited experience of games? Well partly it was just following the same course, making MMOs even more easy to get into. Look at GW2 and TSW two MMOs I admire for different reasons, but not their combat. The combat in TSW is like a 'beat them up' game mashing keys, in GW2 you have a very simplistic set of keys it could not be easier. Well until the next MMO makes it even easier than that.
Having one ID for all alts (GW2) is part of the move to connect your social media identity to your game identity and forum identity. You don't need me to tell you the benefits this has for companies, early days yet but that is the direction they want to move in, game ID's connected to game service ID's (like Steam) connected to your Facebook ID.
Social media has introduced many people who are not gamers to games. Why on earth would they not try to move into that market? There are many barriers to making it work which is why it is fits and starts as yet.
As to handholding, please tell me when you feel the development of MMOs in that direction needs to stop? Are you happy with where we are now? The reality is that MMOs became user friendly when WoW came out, but that road is still being pursued today. You are talking as if they sorted it out last week, are you saying Lotro was inaccessible and not user friendly?
I would not say that being solo friendly makes a MMO a solo game, I would question where a lack of interaction with other players means the MMO might as well be solo. If your idea of multiplayer is seeing a few other avatars flash by and some text popping up in general chat, it is different from mine.
P2W started way before the gambling, it is inherent in many MMOs now. I do not think we have the same definition of what P2W is mind you. Gambling is getting started as I mentioned in the other thread, it will spread to every MMO. Do you actually think that will not happen? Quite happy to put a forum bet on it now if you like (pun intended). Far harder to say if the importance of the items in lock boxes will go up, but I believe so.
Finally why would I come on here to sell you some lies? I can see how you could think I was wrong, but what reason would I have to try to con you?
I'm 25 years old. I've been playing MMORPG's since 1996. I grew up playing online games like EQ, Asheron's Call, DAoC, The Realm, indie games like Well of Souls... ARPG's like Diablo II, and LoD.
I have been trying to pin point the problem for over a year now. I think there is three major problems 1) Myself: MMO's and Online RPG's have become somewhat 'I've done this before feeling. 2) The games are now designed to sell boxes, and pressured by developers and not build to be a long term game (6 months+) 3) Games are no longer being designed uniquely and are instead sticking with already done content and methods AKA 'Cloning' ideas.
I think a vast majority of LONG time MMO players or 'older school' people are not as happy with the games, and I think we get upset time after time because we just haven't gotten used to the fact that MMO's are not being designed to have content and continue to be played for 6+ months on average, or atleast it appears. They want their box sales, play for a couple months til you burn out, and come back for a 40$ expansion a year later.
Our hardware has evolved, 10 years ago we had huge open worlds, non-instanced dungeons, open world active PvP, dynamic crafting, player housing, housing decoration, weapon crafting, exploration, giant 100 of miles wide continents, and yet.. Here we are 2013.. Games have shrunken map wise, they have become linear, there is less exploration than ever. And any game that capures some type of mind blowing level of one category seems to be severely lacking in the others.
I've made some of the best friends of my life and has some of my best memories playing MMO's. People I've kept in touch with for 5-10+ years, text, facebook, etc. all through MMO's. I've been able to escape sports, work, life and relax in a movie that I write my own plot to.
Games aren't being made for gamers by gamers anymore. Like everything in the world it is all about the dollar now. There is only two quality games right now I enjoy.. Path of Exile, and League of Legends, both companies give a completely free good product and make money off non-pay to win stuff. I despised Guild Wars 2, I despised how easy and dumbed now World of Warcraft has become, and these linear worlds I keep seeing. WHY CAN'T I GO OVER THE MOUNTAIN? WHY CAN'T I STUMBLE ACROSS SOME RANDOM DUNGEON NONE OF MY FRIENDS HAVE VENTURED OUT FAR ENOUGH TO SEE. Why can't I find 'my own hidden' hunting spots. Why are we getting smaller? easier? slower? less skills? less housing, creativity modification, than we did in 2005?
I am speaking in generalities, but facts show other than World of Warcraft there isn't really any game that maintains a majority of subs or even remotely close after release. There also hasnt been any games lately that gains even more traction 3-4 months after. They all lose and lose big 3-4 months in.
Some games I'm seeing are absolutely atrocious. I mean yes, the graphics are nice but when you compare the content / game size to an EQ, AC, or something its like, they took 10% of a true MMO and then put a shiny wrapper on it and charged 29.99 for it. I just feel like the market has been flooded with money grabs and the genre is not being pushed to the limit.
I'm not excited for EQNext because its not even remotely 'EQ' its a EQ story line with a completely different game many came to know and wanted. Maybe it will be good? Or maybe it will be the same as everything else. I just don't see anything changing on the horizon and I'm tired of coming home and being disappointed.
Time to go straight console gaming I guess.
I agree 100%. I have been chasing the glory years of MMO's in every new released since WoW but to no avail. I look back now and see how much money and time I wasted chasing that wild goose that I will never find. Well, there is always hope.
There's no emphasis on fun, and that's what kills me about MMO's. MIN/MAXing, DPS parsers, video-walkthroughs of dungeons, gear checks.... this is the stuff that takes all the joy out of MMORPG's.
If you want reality it is this. The MMO industry is still looking for a bigger player base which got it into its current situation in the first place. We have more players who want to spend less time in each new MMO that's comes out. Chasing social media types as they now are we will have even more players who want to spend even less time in each new MMO. Currently we are only going to get more of the same:
More P2W items, more gambling, more soloing, more hand holding, more rat run areas, more activities which have no effect on the game world.
If you want hope it is this. There are tons of players like us out there who want something more than easymode, P2W and gambling. Also if given a chance newer players who have never seen anything other than that type of MMO may surprise us and want more:
More risk, more landscape area, more RP tools, more non questing activities, more direction in end game.
Oh, come on Scot, you can't be serious! How can you expect people to believe such nonsense?
None of the major titles are really pushing for the "social media types", P2W is anything but prevalent, so is gambling, and merely being solo-friendly doesn't make the game a "solo-game". The "hand holding" you are referring to is the type of accessibility and usability is what the genre has been desperately lacking for years, the rat run areas have always been there, and none of the things you've done in a game has ever mattered much.
What you're saying is just straightforward lies.
Obviously we see the history of MMOs in very different ways. The MMO industry looked at the likes of Farmville and thought we will have some of that. They saw a bigger market and have been aiming at it ever since. Now what does that mean? I am not saying they abandoned everything they had done so far and tried to make a MMO for Farmville players. But the social media friendly nature of every MMO is now easy to see. The like buttons, the apps to follow your game, or even partially play it from a smartphone. Every ding in game will end up being a ding on Facebook, the intent to appeal to that market is clear.
How do you make a MMO more accessible to social media games players who have a very limited experience of games? Well partly it was just following the same course, making MMOs even more easy to get into. Look at GW2 and TSW two MMOs I admire for different reasons, but not their combat. The combat in TSW is like a 'beat them up' game mashing keys, in GW2 you have a very simplistic set of keys it could not be easier. Well until the next MMO makes it even easier than that.
Having one ID for all alts (GW2) is part of the move to connect your social media identity to your game identity and forum identity. You don't need me to tell you the benefits this has for companies, early days yet but that is the direction they want to move in, game ID's connected to game service ID's (like Steam) connected to your Facebook ID.
Social media has introduced many people who are not gamers to games. Why on earth would they not try to move into that market? There are many barriers to making it work which is why it is fits and starts as yet.
As to handholding, please tell me when you feel the development of MMOs in that direction needs to stop? Are you happy with where we are now? The reality is that MMOs became user friendly when WoW came out, but that road is still being pursued today. You are talking as if they sorted it out last week, are you saying Lotro was inaccessible and not user friendly?
I would not say that being solo friendly makes a MMO a solo game, I would question where a lack of interaction with other players means the MMO might as well be solo. If your idea of multiplayer is seeing a few other avatars flash by and some text popping up in general chat, it is different from mine.
P2W started way before the gambling, it is inherent in many MMOs now. I do not think we have the same definition of what P2W is mind you. Gambling is getting started as I mentioned in the other thread, it will spread to every MMO. Do you actually think that will not happen? Quite happy to put a forum bet on it now if you like (pun intended). Far harder to say if the importance of the items in lock boxes will go up, but I believe so.
Finally why would I come on here to sell you some lies? I can see how you could think I was wrong, but what reason would I have to try to con you?
Because you have convinced yourself that they are true? This is very evident in they way you - with no knowledge of the industry and a very biased view of both business models and players - present your views as fact. For example, your previous post is all personal assumption stated as fact for the sole purpose of contradicting another person's view and you began it with
"If you want reality it is this."
That you've convinced yourself that these uninformed opinions are fact is about the only explanation I can think of for why you would repeatedly post the things you do, which is why some may perceive that you are lying, because it's obvious you're not an idiot.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Thoemse While agree with most you have said i do have hope for one game on the horizon: The repopulation. If they can pull it off this will be good and it is not just another copy.
That's one of the indie games I am really psyched about. It seems like they've really got their act together and so far I haven't heard anything bad about their game, which i surprising for any title as ambitious as theirs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This argument always puzzles me. Do you guys think everyone was 22 ten years ago and had tons of free time? I was 46, with a wife, 3 children and a 50+ hour a week job, yet I found plenty of time to carve out some fun in the old school MMORPG's.
No, I didn't do many of those 6 hour raid camps you are describing, but it never really serves to bolster an argument by pointing out the most extreme examples of content unplayable by the more casual gamer when you are over looking the huge amount of content that was available to a player like me.
Trust me, you could find time to play the original EQ even with your current responsibilities, but you would play it differently, just as I had to.
Funny thing is the wheel comes around, now the kids are out of the house, so I have more time than ever to game but still I wouldn't do long raids. Deosn't mean I wouldn't enjoy some more challenging and even time consuming content.
Guess that's why I've been playing a DAOC freeshard set back to 2003 rules, with all the timesinks, crowd control, and RVR that the game is famous for (including the zerg like open world combat)
Trust me, if I could do it, you can do it, and you'll find sleep is really a very optional thing.
There was very, very little that could be done in the original EQ through casual play. And when I say original EQ, I'm talking the early years of the game, which is when I played. It wasn't the type of game where you could log on for 30 minutes to an hour, complete a few quests and then log off. Even the simplest tasks almost always required a group beyond the very low levels. The process of getting a group would often take as much as an hour or more of time alone. Sure there were classes that could solo well as they got to higher levels and had more powerful spells or pets. But even then, killing a mob in EQ took significantly longer than killing a mob in today's MMO's. Playing solo or casually would have not only been incredibly boring, but it would have resulted in almost no notable progression whatsoever. I remember putting in 12 hour grind sessions and our xp bars would barely move.
I'll have to take your word on it, I never played EQ1, I started with Lineage 1 and then moved on to DAOC so perhaps it is as you say. Though I do recall people saying certain classes (Druids?) were actually very solid soloers and I think most games had those long play sessions with little exp gain. (I'll bet L2 at launch was far worse than EQ 1 in terms of grind, but again, I don't know for sure)
I'm also told AC 1, UO, and some others had quite a bit to do solo, but FFXI was more as you describe, not really possible to advance without a group.
But one thing, my idea of casual is having 2-3 hours to play, not 30 minutes or something like that. In that situation, I don't think people should be playing MMORPG's, just not how they should designed IMO. (outside of some crafting or simple questing
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Thoemse While agree with most you have said i do have hope for one game on the horizon: The repopulation. If they can pull it off this will be good and it is not just another copy.
That's one of the indie games I am really psyched about. It seems like they've really got their act together and so far I haven't heard anything bad about their game, which i surprising for any title as ambitious as theirs.
I also count on the indies and smaller studios to make the games I enjoy. Oldschool MMOs are a niche now, the market has changed.
Nowadays AAA titles have no other chance than to cater to everyone and their mother and thus end up shallow and (for me) unfun, otherwise they can't justify their huge budgets. Aiming at the big mass with a shallow product they'll all accept is more profitable than making something deep and specialized for a niche.
It sucks when a good discussion gets derailed by server populations and revenue models...
It's a common yard stick used here in an attempt to prove, "my game is better than yours".
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by Forgrimm You also have to realize that while games have evolved, us old-school players have aged and evolved as well. I started playing EQ back in '99 when I was 22 years old. I had no major responsibilities at the time besides a full-time job, and the MMO genre was brand new, that's what made it so amazing. Now I'm 35, have a family and a lot more responsibilities, and have no desire to play something as time consuming and tedious as the original EQ was back in its day. The whole generation that started playing the gen-1 MMO's has grown up now. And the new crop of MMO's has learned from the mistakes of past MMO's. Very few people would consider sitting around for 6 hours, camping a static spawn, only to have it not drop the item that they want, to be fun. It was fun back in the day because we didn't know any better, we had nothing else to compare it to, and it was new and shiny at the time.
AMEN
This argument always puzzles me. Do you guys think everyone was 22 ten years ago and had tons of free time? I was 46, with a wife, 3 children and a 50+ hour a week job, yet I found plenty of time to carve out some fun in the old school MMORPG's.
No, I didn't do many of those 6 hour raid camps you are describing, but it never really serves to bolster an argument by pointing out the most extreme examples of content unplayable by the more casual gamer when you are over looking the huge amount of content that was available to a player like me.
Trust me, you could find time to play the original EQ even with your current responsibilities, but you would play it differently, just as I had to.
Funny thing is the wheel comes around, now the kids are out of the house, so I have more time than ever to game but still I wouldn't do long raids. Deosn't mean I wouldn't enjoy some more challenging and even time consuming content.
Guess that's why I've been playing a DAOC freeshard set back to 2003 rules, with all the timesinks, crowd control, and RVR that the game is famous for (including the zerg like open world combat)
Trust me, if I could do it, you can do it, and you'll find sleep is really a very optional thing.
Originally posted by Forgrimm You also have to realize that while games have evolved, us old-school players have aged and evolved as well. I started playing EQ back in '99 when I was 22 years old. I had no major responsibilities at the time besides a full-time job, and the MMO genre was brand new, that's what made it so amazing. Now I'm 35, have a family and a lot more responsibilities, and have no desire to play something as time consuming and tedious as the original EQ was back in its day. The whole generation that started playing the gen-1 MMO's has grown up now. And the new crop of MMO's has learned from the mistakes of past MMO's. Very few people would consider sitting around for 6 hours, camping a static spawn, only to have it not drop the item that they want, to be fun. It was fun back in the day because we didn't know any better, we had nothing else to compare it to, and it was new and shiny at the time.
The several million gamers who tried EQ and quit would attest to the fact that even back then, most gamers weren't willing to do hardcore MMO content. Let's face it, the industry wasn't capable of embracing the yet unnamed (casual) masses that left their games in droves. I am an old school casual gamer and even though I played EQ for about 6 years on and off, it was played casually and never above level 50 on any of my toons.
The industry knew, even back then, that there was a huge casual crowd that was trying their games and quitting in large quantities. It was why so many MMO's back then started to focus more and more on raiding to appease the hardcores as it was either too late to get back the casuals that left or they were clueless or could care less about getting them back. Take into account that the majority of the industry back then was populated with extremely hardcore developers who couldn't or wouldn't look past the next raiding module and time sink.
Originally posted by TibernicuspaThis. My interests didn't change, the genre did.
It had to. Stagnant markets are not a good thing. With investors demanding more return and also dev budgets skyrocketing like crazy, the market had to expand harshly and reach a much wider target audience. This fundamentally influences what the games look like.
Basically, the world turned on, we didn't. Now we are a niche and have to accept niche products. They are out there. Maybe not as flashy as the big AAA titles, but more to our taste.
Mainstream games can do it all. Those old time games weren't as good as people remember and these new ones are nearly as bad. There is most of what people claim to want in GW2, WoW, and Wildstar..if not quite a perfect amount of everything.
Don't get me wrong I personally wanted a kind of "EQ on steroids' model of game to come out.. and EQN seems to be a joke so I am kinda bummed out. But I think Wildstar and ESO will bring the genre a bit forward..
Mainstream games can do it all. Those old time games weren't as good as people remember and these new ones are nearly as bad. There is most of what people claim to want in GW2, WoW, and Wildstar..if not quite a perfect amount of everything.
Don't get me wrong I personally wanted a kind of "EQ on steroids' model of game to come out.. and EQN seems to be a joke so I am kinda bummed out. But I think Wildstar and ESO will bring the genre a bit forward..
Who are you to tell us these games were not as good as we remember? Maybe they were not to you but you cannot speak for everyone. I know EXACTLY what I liked about the old school MMO's and those things are completely missing in the new MMO's.
The two games you speak of bringing the genre forward....you are severely mistaken. Neither are innovative in any way over the current MMO model. They will be just another of the many MMO's on the market for people to choose from, nothing more or less.
Originally posted by Forgrimm You also have to realize that while games have evolved, us old-school players have aged and evolved as well. I started playing EQ back in '99 when I was 22 years old. I had no major responsibilities at the time besides a full-time job, and the MMO genre was brand new, that's what made it so amazing. Now I'm 35, have a family and a lot more responsibilities, and have no desire to play something as time consuming and tedious as the original EQ was back in its day. The whole generation that started playing the gen-1 MMO's has grown up now. And the new crop of MMO's has learned from the mistakes of past MMO's. Very few people would consider sitting around for 6 hours, camping a static spawn, only to have it not drop the item that they want, to be fun. It was fun back in the day because we didn't know any better, we had nothing else to compare it to, and it was new and shiny at the time.
The several million gamers who tried EQ and quit would attest to the fact that even back then, most gamers weren't willing to do hardcore MMO content. Let's face it, the industry wasn't capable of embracing the yet unnamed (casual) masses that left their games in droves. I am an old school casual gamer and even though I played EQ for about 6 years on and off, it was played casually and never above level 50 on any of my toons.
The industry knew, even back then, that there was a huge casual crowd that was trying their games and quitting in large quantities. It was why so many MMO's back then started to focus more and more on raiding to appease the hardcores as it was either too late to get back the casuals that left or they were clueless or could care less about getting them back. Take into account that the majority of the industry back then was populated with extremely hardcore developers who couldn't or wouldn't look past the next raiding module and time sink.
I agree with you, but I think there is most certainly a market for MMO's in between old school and the WoW generation. Maybe not as hardcore as EQ, but somewhere in between. I think the absolute key lies in community, until an MMO finds a way to maintain community and a social aspect along with the casual game style we will continue down this road of single player chat rooms.
Comments
OP, I know that feel.
I have watched so many MMOs come out with great innovations, and glaring faults. Each game is but a piece of the puzzle. The six biggest pieces I remember in my life were as follows.
DAOC, with amazing PVP and class diversity. But horribly lacking PVE.
WOW, with revolutionary UI simplicity and refined take on PVE questing.
FFXI, with fantastic group dynamic. Skill chains and magic bursts.
GW, with great class builds and the iconic Skill Bar.
SWTOR, with the best class story system I've ever played. Dialogue options and an alignment system.
WAR, with the only good Public Quest system I've played.
If we took all of this and just made a game, how great would that be? Anywho, that is my opinion.
OP, look to Wildstar, the graphics are lame but the gameplay sounds fantastic.
I think the problem is more to do with something we watch a lot of, for example lets say action movies. After seeing so many, we just dont care for them as much as we used to when we were a younger generation. However, a Quentin Tarantino movie, is something special that it goes a bit over the top, and makes it more about entertainment rather than something that takes itself too seriously.
I think MMOs not that they need to be silly/funny, but need to go over the top in many aspects. Action combat, to show more action, and make it more than 2 dimensional combat, involve ceilings etc, Gore etc
Story, can go over the top. Mature/bizare/scary etc
Humor can go over the top. Can anyone watch a south park episode and say they are bored?
I think MMOs just need to take it to the next level, and go over the top in many aspects, and stop taking themselves too seriously.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
How can you have a lot of time to play while working 50 hours a week, as well as with a family? It's just not possible without putting your health at risk. Those who were young and lacked responsibilities could put 40-50 hours in a week if they so wanted, a true working stiff can't, it's just one of the facts of life, those with responsibility have less free time. It's those with the time that make up the large part of an active community outside of prime time hours(8 pm -10pm or so).
A game with mostly working stiffs looks pretty much like DAOC or UO today. Very few people on outside of prime time hours. That doesn't bode well for profits.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have this same sensation as of the last few years. I personally loved 4 MMO's very dearly.
Planetside 1 (pre-expansion packs/BFR's)
Anarchy Online (my cherry-popper for MMORPG's)
FFXI (the greatest experience in an MMORPG to date)
Star Wars Galaxies (the buggiest and funnest disaster ever made)
The one thing all these games had in common was the sense of community. In FFXI, I played with the same people for nearly 4 years. In Planetside, I recognized faces (though not NEARLY as close knit as FFXI) over the span of 8 years. AO had some of the most dedicated players I ever knew over the span of 12 years. And SWG, despite it only offering me a few months of entertainment, brought together generations of people based one their love of Star Wars alone (which allowed people to look past the endless number of flaws in the game. All 4 of these games had really different styles of gameplay, too.
Nowadays, everything just presents the "been there, done that" sensation for me. I've delved into multiple other MMO's in the past 3 years (Aion, TERA, SWtoR, FFXIV, GW2 being the most well-known ones) and not stuck with one of them past 2 months. I find that 60 days is sufficient to complete most of these games before the inevitable gear treadmill/reputation grinding commences. That's one thing that I realized every MMO does nowadays, and I hate. Gear grind. Reputation grind.
The bigger problem lies within the fact that there is nothing else to do aside from this. Developers have decided that end-game is solely to be dedicated to these 2 elements. What about fun? What about spontaneity? What if I wanna just log on and shoot the shit with some friends in the guild while I do homework/work? There's no emphasis on fun, and that's what kills me about MMO's. MIN/MAXing, DPS parsers, video-walkthroughs of dungeons, gear checks.... this is the stuff that takes all the joy out of MMORPG's.
Things that used to be fun and valuable distractions in games aren't there anymore. What about training pets? Building houses/cities? Open world PvP that DIDN'T consist of just corpse camping and corpse runs? How about casinos and card games and races? Does anyone remember how utterly badass the cantinas were with vanilla SWG, with the bands booming and the people gathering at the inns? How about exploring random caves on random planets just because they were there (and no, they weren't marked on the map, nor was there a quest line that showed you it; you had to explore to find them) or stumbling across a campfire in the distance and knowing "Hey.... friends...... or REBEL SCUM?!?" I know some folks have to remember these features which, for the most part, were time-sinks, but time-sinks that gave you an excuse to socialize, interact, and develop your community based on which planet/cantina you frequented the most. Just to give you an example of how in-depth these used to get, watch like 1 minute of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqaD1-dJmJE
In FFXI, the community developed as a result of the MASSIVE time it required to level and do anything. Who remembers 5 hour long exp parties? The combat was almost mind-numbing at times, but you made friends with your groups because it took you hours to get stuff done. A bad player was noticeable almost immediately, and would develop a reputation on the server. You couldn't do *anything* without a group, so making friends wasn't a suggestion... it was a damned requirement. Don't let me fool you; the downside to this was 10+ hours of LFG as a DPS class. This led to even more socializing, because the more friends you had and the more people you knew, the less time you'd have to spend sitting and waiting.
Planetside was different that FFXI and SWG. It, in my opinion, was the most comparable to "modern" MMORPG's. You could chat with people, or totally ignore them all. Want to get into the fray? HART drop into combat; at most you're waiting 10 minutes to be involved in a fight for the next 6 hours. When you dropped in, you found a squad, and you got to work. Commanders were basically guild leaders, and they'd tell the masses where to go, when to go there, what to bring, etc. Even still, with no real required communication... people started to do so by choice, because you wanted to be a part of the greater good, i.e. *THE* Fight!
..... and that's the problem with MMO's nowadays. It's too NOW NOW NOW, it's too casual. Community is not something that ups and appears overnight. It takes a long, LOOOONG time to develop. Look at Eve Online; it is generally heralded as the greatest community game ever. Was it always so? No, no it was not. But those folks sunk in hundreds and thousands of hours together, and the community (slowly) began to grow. Due to the sheer size and nature of the beast, it took quite some time, but there's not an Eve veteran out there who will say "The community sucks in this game", because it doesn't. Games like GW2 come out, and FFXIV come out, and you can solo the whole game. You can max a craft in a few hours (and you don't need to trade or interact with anyone to do so). Then you can grind for gear for weeks, months, with or without interaction.
That's why games suck nowadays. Games are so simple and easy to complete that the challenge and difficulty necessary to foster and develop a community never occurs. Why do you use an auction house? Because you need help acquiring materials that are too difficult for you to obtain. Why do you join a group? Because you need assistance to run dungeons. A general rule of thumb in MMORPG's is that some people will never interact with others unless they absolutely have to; the second these people start being catered to or considered to be a primary target demographic, that's when a game is committing to saying "**** the notion of community". Unfortunately, the last 3 years has focused on this demographic almost exclusively. The here, the new, the "I can only play 2 hours a week" community., and while I understand that not everyone can sink 4 hours a day into a game, the attitude in the industry has shifted from "Well let's make content accessible to these people, but keep on designing it for hardcore players" -----> "Let's make content for these people, and the hell with hardcore players."
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Don't worry buddy. I have no doubt there will be a thread with the same topic next week.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I dont like anything on the menu.
Everything I liked went F2P and I don't play F2P games....And the future does not look good eather.
If you want reality it is this. The MMO industry is still looking for a bigger player base which got it into its current situation in the first place. We have more players who want to spend less time in each new MMO that's comes out. Chasing social media types as they now are we will have even more players who want to spend even less time in each new MMO. Currently we are only going to get more of the same:
More P2W items, more gambling, more soloing, more hand holding, more rat run areas, more activities which have no effect on the game world.
If you want hope it is this. There are tons of players like us out there who want something more than easymode, P2W and gambling. Also if given a chance newer players who have never seen anything other than that type of MMO may surprise us and want more:
More risk, more landscape area, more RP tools, more non questing activities, more direction in end game.
Oh, come on Scot, you can't be serious! How can you expect people to believe such nonsense?
None of the major titles are really pushing for the "social media types", P2W is anything but prevalent, so is gambling, and merely being solo-friendly doesn't make the game a "solo-game". The "hand holding" you are referring to is the type of accessibility and usability is what the genre has been desperately lacking for years, the rat run areas have always been there, and none of the things you've done in a game has ever mattered much.
What you're saying is just straightforward lies.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
There was very, very little that could be done in the original EQ through casual play. And when I say original EQ, I'm talking the early years of the game, which is when I played. It wasn't the type of game where you could log on for 30 minutes to an hour, complete a few quests and then log off. Even the simplest tasks almost always required a group beyond the very low levels. The process of getting a group would often take as much as an hour or more of time alone. Sure there were classes that could solo well as they got to higher levels and had more powerful spells or pets. But even then, killing a mob in EQ took significantly longer than killing a mob in today's MMO's. Playing solo or casually would have not only been incredibly boring, but it would have resulted in almost no notable progression whatsoever. I remember putting in 12 hour grind sessions and our xp bars would barely move.
At least we know there are some things that haven't changed since 2006.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Obviously we see the history of MMOs in very different ways. The MMO industry looked at the likes of Farmville and thought we will have some of that. They saw a bigger market and have been aiming at it ever since. Now what does that mean? I am not saying they abandoned everything they had done so far and tried to make a MMO for Farmville players. But the social media friendly nature of every MMO is now easy to see. The like buttons, the apps to follow your game, or even partially play it from a smartphone. Every ding in game will end up being a ding on Facebook, the intent to appeal to that market is clear.
How do you make a MMO more accessible to social media games players who have a very limited experience of games? Well partly it was just following the same course, making MMOs even more easy to get into. Look at GW2 and TSW two MMOs I admire for different reasons, but not their combat. The combat in TSW is like a 'beat them up' game mashing keys, in GW2 you have a very simplistic set of keys it could not be easier. Well until the next MMO makes it even easier than that.
Having one ID for all alts (GW2) is part of the move to connect your social media identity to your game identity and forum identity. You don't need me to tell you the benefits this has for companies, early days yet but that is the direction they want to move in, game ID's connected to game service ID's (like Steam) connected to your Facebook ID.
Social media has introduced many people who are not gamers to games. Why on earth would they not try to move into that market? There are many barriers to making it work which is why it is fits and starts as yet.
As to handholding, please tell me when you feel the development of MMOs in that direction needs to stop? Are you happy with where we are now? The reality is that MMOs became user friendly when WoW came out, but that road is still being pursued today. You are talking as if they sorted it out last week, are you saying Lotro was inaccessible and not user friendly?
I would not say that being solo friendly makes a MMO a solo game, I would question where a lack of interaction with other players means the MMO might as well be solo. If your idea of multiplayer is seeing a few other avatars flash by and some text popping up in general chat, it is different from mine.
P2W started way before the gambling, it is inherent in many MMOs now. I do not think we have the same definition of what P2W is mind you. Gambling is getting started as I mentioned in the other thread, it will spread to every MMO. Do you actually think that will not happen? Quite happy to put a forum bet on it now if you like (pun intended). Far harder to say if the importance of the items in lock boxes will go up, but I believe so.
Finally why would I come on here to sell you some lies? I can see how you could think I was wrong, but what reason would I have to try to con you?
I agree 100%. I have been chasing the glory years of MMO's in every new released since WoW but to no avail. I look back now and see how much money and time I wasted chasing that wild goose that I will never find. Well, there is always hope.
Nail...meet hammer.
Because you have convinced yourself that they are true? This is very evident in they way you - with no knowledge of the industry and a very biased view of both business models and players - present your views as fact. For example, your previous post is all personal assumption stated as fact for the sole purpose of contradicting another person's view and you began it with
"If you want reality it is this."
That you've convinced yourself that these uninformed opinions are fact is about the only explanation I can think of for why you would repeatedly post the things you do, which is why some may perceive that you are lying, because it's obvious you're not an idiot.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That's one of the indie games I am really psyched about. It seems like they've really got their act together and so far I haven't heard anything bad about their game, which i surprising for any title as ambitious as theirs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'll have to take your word on it, I never played EQ1, I started with Lineage 1 and then moved on to DAOC so perhaps it is as you say. Though I do recall people saying certain classes (Druids?) were actually very solid soloers and I think most games had those long play sessions with little exp gain. (I'll bet L2 at launch was far worse than EQ 1 in terms of grind, but again, I don't know for sure)
I'm also told AC 1, UO, and some others had quite a bit to do solo, but FFXI was more as you describe, not really possible to advance without a group.
But one thing, my idea of casual is having 2-3 hours to play, not 30 minutes or something like that. In that situation, I don't think people should be playing MMORPG's, just not how they should designed IMO. (outside of some crafting or simple questing
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I also count on the indies and smaller studios to make the games I enjoy. Oldschool MMOs are a niche now, the market has changed.
Nowadays AAA titles have no other chance than to cater to everyone and their mother and thus end up shallow and (for me) unfun, otherwise they can't justify their huge budgets. Aiming at the big mass with a shallow product they'll all accept is more profitable than making something deep and specialized for a niche.
It's a common yard stick used here in an attempt to prove, "my game is better than yours".
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
This. My interests didn't change, the genre did.
The several million gamers who tried EQ and quit would attest to the fact that even back then, most gamers weren't willing to do hardcore MMO content. Let's face it, the industry wasn't capable of embracing the yet unnamed (casual) masses that left their games in droves. I am an old school casual gamer and even though I played EQ for about 6 years on and off, it was played casually and never above level 50 on any of my toons.
The industry knew, even back then, that there was a huge casual crowd that was trying their games and quitting in large quantities. It was why so many MMO's back then started to focus more and more on raiding to appease the hardcores as it was either too late to get back the casuals that left or they were clueless or could care less about getting them back. Take into account that the majority of the industry back then was populated with extremely hardcore developers who couldn't or wouldn't look past the next raiding module and time sink.
It had to. Stagnant markets are not a good thing. With investors demanding more return and also dev budgets skyrocketing like crazy, the market had to expand harshly and reach a much wider target audience. This fundamentally influences what the games look like.
Basically, the world turned on, we didn't. Now we are a niche and have to accept niche products. They are out there. Maybe not as flashy as the big AAA titles, but more to our taste.
Mainstream games can do it all. Those old time games weren't as good as people remember and these new ones are nearly as bad. There is most of what people claim to want in GW2, WoW, and Wildstar..if not quite a perfect amount of everything.
Don't get me wrong I personally wanted a kind of "EQ on steroids' model of game to come out.. and EQN seems to be a joke so I am kinda bummed out. But I think Wildstar and ESO will bring the genre a bit forward..
Who are you to tell us these games were not as good as we remember? Maybe they were not to you but you cannot speak for everyone. I know EXACTLY what I liked about the old school MMO's and those things are completely missing in the new MMO's.
The two games you speak of bringing the genre forward....you are severely mistaken. Neither are innovative in any way over the current MMO model. They will be just another of the many MMO's on the market for people to choose from, nothing more or less.
I agree with you, but I think there is most certainly a market for MMO's in between old school and the WoW generation. Maybe not as hardcore as EQ, but somewhere in between. I think the absolute key lies in community, until an MMO finds a way to maintain community and a social aspect along with the casual game style we will continue down this road of single player chat rooms.